Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins?

[Aduu Avagnar]

Coatleque rarely uses a shield as it is.  Even the description of gladiator says the shield is optional.  I wish SE would actually implement that.  She uses a hand and a half sword, so she can easily switch between both styles.

 

I don't need to level another class just to RP that concept.

It's a good thing that Swords like the Goblin Longsword are hand and a halfs

[mongi291]

Eh, it would be cool if GLA/PLD gained a trait that increased the stats (excluding Weapon Damage) on their swords by 50% (making them equal to Sword+Shield) if no shield is equipped.

[Hammersmith]

Hammer's not a fan of swords.  He can handle them, it's just a sword doesn't help you break a gate, a door, or a barricade down the same way an axe does.  He's a siege engineer and soldier. In his fighting style, axes get you through people, armor, and obstacles without blunting, breaking, or chipping, since swords are designed to just go through people.

 

He's not switching more because he's used to the weapon he has.  It's honest about what it does, the axe is.

 

Swords breed a different level of martial culture he doesn't care for, and considers somewhat dishonest.

 

Which strangely enough, seems to be exactly what spawned in the DRK concept.

[TheLastCandle]

I've long been using the Goblin Longsword and similar models as stand-ins for actual greatswords in my RP. I just hope that not all of the DRK's swords are of the overly fanciful sort. I'd like a fairly historically accurate claidhmore or zweihander to use for Yvelont's family sword. (I'd settle for a slightly larger two-handed version of the Goblin Longsword model!)

[Flashhelix]

unbeknownst to most, swords as a whole have actually been obsolete since the beginning of FFXIV

 

 

Charles Barkley Shut Up And Slam Gaiden Online?! You got into the beta for that?! Man, I CAN'T WAIT for that game!

 

the full title is Tales of Games Presents: Charles Barkley's Shut Up And Jam Online Part 1: The Fury of Cuchulainn Part 3: Part 2 of the Hoopz Barkley SaGa, but yes

[Khadan]

This is something that's come up in FC chatter/mumble for a while, now, especially with our FotM hype nerds. The general consensus seems to be that all tanks will be going for Dark Knight soon or something. I still don't personally see why. Mechanically Paladins are probably the strongest tank in the game between the abundance of cooldowns and passive block being so powerful. Where Paladins suffer the most is in solo play where their dps is abysmally low and the one ability they have, Sword Oath, is the longest running joke of 2.x

 

If Dark Knight comes in and offers all the cooldown versatility and massive secondary mitigation of Paladin with the AoE threat and solo DPS of the Warrior? Then yes you will probably see a lot of people jumping ship to board the hype train. Of course this could easily be fixed by redoing sword oath to not be garbage and increasing the AoE threat of Paladin while also giving warrior something to compensate for their lack of a block passive.

 

Overall where this really matters is in raiding. If Dark Knight doesn't have the passive mitigation and cooldown versatility of Paladin I'm going to put my money on Paladin staying the strongest tank with Warrior and Dark Knight being interchangeable as Off Tanks.

 

---

 

On to the RP side of things!

 

So here's the thing with greatswords: Fantasy games have played up their prominence and capability to an extreme degree. That is not to say that a great sword isn't good at what it's intended to do: cleaving a bloody swathe through unarmored foes and the legs of horses. 

 

Like all jobs it is good to remember that there is a tool for every job. You're not going to bring a pair of pliers to a decking job when you need a hammer and nails, instead. 

 

What does that mean for warfare and combat? Well it means that there is no "one tool fixes all" in melee warfare which is why there are so many different weapons throughout history. Some of them are good or even great, some of them are terrible and beg the question: -WHY?!-. Greatswords tend to be the marriage of a long cutting edge of a long sword or a messer sword, with the chopping force of a long axe. Some might argue that you could throw short spear in there but I disagree on the basis of how a spear is wielded and a greatsword is still shorter than a short spear; unless they mean javelins in which case you don't throw the damn greatsword gdi.

 

With that in mind, if you're fighting a bunch of opponents that have light or no armor or cavalry then a greatsword is excellent. Greatsword blades don't cut through solid or well made metal armor, however, since the cutting edge is spread out over too much space to penetrate your opponent. CAN you defeat an armored foe with a greatsword? Of course, but you can also kill someone with a broken bottle, too, it doesn't make it the best tool for the job.

 

On to swords and shields. The shield as a concept has been around in practice from some of the most ancient civilizations like the Egyptian wood and ox hide shields to the famous Roman Scutum and the Viking Linden board round shields then moving on to modern day riot shields. The idea of putting a solid barrier between yourself and direct harm is something I think all of us can get behind (see what I did there?). A shield wasn't just a defensive barrier that took up a spot on your arm and occasionally absorbed an arrow shot, rather it was a solid wall between your enemy's weapon and your body, a mobile and often maneuverable shell that could block, parry, and especially trap an opponents weapon, and an effective bashing weapon. One of the most effective shield combinations is a medium sized shield, usually round or rectangular, and a short sword (Like the gladius). Even more so if you can present a shield wall to your enemies and arm your soldiers with spears as well, i.e. the phalanx.

 

Though I think we're supposedly focusing on one-on-one combat. I could probably present pages of scenarios to you about sword-and-shield vs. greatsword and what is better etc etc. I think someone mentioned HEMA earlier, too, and they'll know what I'm talking about in that regard. I will say that just 'off the cuff' in my opinion with two equally skilled and armored opponents you will likely see the person with the sword and shield overcoming the greatsword wielder more often just because that shield is a highly effective and adaptable tool while a greatsword only does one thing, maybe two if you count the occasional parry.

 

On a somewhat personal peeve I will say that I very often see this idea touted about with characters wielding this massive greatswords with relative ease and the thing is wide enough that they claim they just plant it in the ground and it can block arrows and even BULLETS. I will grant that this is Final Fantasy so ridiculous and fantastical things can and do happen like Cloud for example. HOWEVER since we have 'normal' looking swords with most of them being proportional as the majority I'm going to say that a cloud sword is just sort of ridiculous as a notion. Hell even I find Raubahn's swords to be too big and heavy to be using effectively with one in each hand. But regardless, using a sword as a shield just seems ridiculous even for FF. Plus it sounds like a good way to get your sword broken and/or shattered since it's not designed to take those kinds of impacts (small high velocity shots) on the flat. Not to mention that it's heavy and unwieldy! There's a video of a guy who made a replica of Cloud's Buster Sword and then had some body builder try to swing it around and he just couldn't do it, it weight like 50-60 pounds (a normal greatsword weighs probably 4-5). Finally, with such a large weapon your range of strikes is rather limited to downwards chops and horizontal cuts. You might get a thrust in but remember, it's not a spear. A one handed sword just has a lot more flexibility, range of motion, penetrating power if you half-sword especially, and would be faster. I know it's Final Fantasy but I just dislike the anime greatsword trope e.e

[Warren Castille]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

[Dravus]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

Tastes differ. Some people enjoy a sense of 'realism' in their role-play. Sometimes that leans more towards what would be realistic in the real world whilst in other cases it revolves around what would be realistic by the rules of the setting. Personally I prefer a healthy mix of both.

 

As for Dark Knights...I'd be more interested if they weren't another tank class. I'm still baffled that one of the core archetypes in any fantasy game (a guy with a sword who cuts foes down) is limited to tank classes. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but hopefully one day we'll get a pure DPS class that uses a stereotypical sword and heavy armour in battle.

[cuideag]

I'm a firm believer in being able to separate what you play for PVE from what your character might be for RP. I have no reason to believe, for instance, that paladins suddenly completely forget whatever the heck they were doing the moment they pick up something that isn't a one handed sword, or that a dragoon will suddenly swallow his tongue because he tripped and accidentally punched something instead of stabbing it.

 

tl;dr no, probably not. Combat-seasoned characters will have new toys that they can play with but that might not necessarily mean that IC they stop being paladins or whatever else.

[Khadan]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it? 

 

Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?

 

Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?

[Melkire]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it? 

 

Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?

 

Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?

 

In all seriousness, we're actually getting this.

 

 

Please look forward to it.

[Chris Ganale]

It wouldn't actually be hard to rig up a lightsaber-esque energy weapon given existing technology in the setting... It's on my to-do list.

[Khadan]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it? 

 

Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?

 

Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?

 

In all seriousness, we're actually getting this.

 

 

Please look forward to it.

 

Oh I am looking forward to it. Tanking that beastie will likely be fun >=)

 

It wouldn't actually be hard to rig up a lightsaber-esque energy weapon given existing technology in the setting... It's on my to-do list.

 

Hm, I would argue that it would be relatively impossible since the only beam-style attacks we see are magical in nature or Allagan and never static, rather just a beam-style-weapon that is fired like a cannon.

 

I could see a kind of deployable macro-sword though. More so than the Lightning one, even.

 

Still, I should hit you for that. :evil:

[Chris Ganale]

It's easy. Take cylinder of metal. Insert crystal of your choice and magitek powercell (Disclaimer: if the Garleans have magitek photocells it stands to reason they'd have similar-sized powercells). Put focusing lens on open end. Boom. Instant lightsaber-style beam saber. Even with elemental variety!

[Khadan]

It's easy. Take cylinder of metal. Insert crystal of your choice and magitek powercell (Disclaimer: if the Garleans have magitek photocells it stands to reason they'd have similar-sized powercells). Put focusing lens on open end. Boom. Instant lightsaber-style beam saber. Even with elemental variety!

 

At the risk of sounding incredibly turbo-nerdy I'll go ahead and bite and say nah, that ain't how it's done, bruh. =)

 

I don't want to derail the conversation too much by talking about Star Wars junk but here, have a link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber

 

the tl;dr is that it's a 'blade' of pure plasma held inside a containment field to keep it from lighting you on fire for just being near it. It has a lot of tiny, highly technologically parts that are very miniaturized. The crystals themselves aren't just 'crystal', they're very specific and only come from one planet in that galaxy.

 

In summary you can't really have a lightsaber in FF14*

 

*until they introduce them through some handwaved Garlean BS that entirely negates the premise probably

[Chris Ganale]

I know how a lightsaber works in Star Wars. Mandos need to understand the weapons of their greatest foes, after all. But this is why I've said lightsaber-esque repeatedly and always suffixed it with "beam saber" as it's more akin to the Gundam weapon generated via fantasy rather than high technology. I only continued to use the lightsaber reference because I figure more people would know what that is than a beam saber.

 

But I digress, this is not relevant to the topic of hand so I'll reengage the lurking device before I get run off. Again

[Oroban]

On topic, I will most definitely be swapping to a two hander for RP purposes, though I doubt I'll be swapping to Dark Knight ICly, as that doesn't suit Khy.

 

Off topic, Beam Sabers aren't beams but are tightly controlled I-fields flushed with high concentrations of minovsky plasma generated from the minovsky particles in the E-Cap in the base of the hilt. There's no crystal or beam in either case, simply a very complex method of controlling a fictional particle type that exists solely to make giant robot battles slightly more believable. -adjusts nerd goggles.- Also, Feddy4lyfe, Zeon can eat it.

[Verad]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it? 

 

Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?

 

Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?

 

No.

[Khadan]

In a world with leaping dragon slayers, let's worry about realism in RP weaponry.

 

I guess it's a good thing I mentioned that I know this is Final Fantasy at least three times isn't it? 

 

Besides, if we're not basing weapons and combat on the basis of reality, which we are and so does SE for that matter, then let's just all wield lightsabers and lock s-foils in attack positions?

 

Or can we keep talking about weapons and realism and how that pertains to fantasy?

 

No.

 

Who asked you, DUSKIE?!

[mongi291]

This is something that's come up in FC chatter/mumble for a while, now, especially with our FotM hype nerds. The general consensus seems to be that all tanks will be going for Dark Knight soon or something. I still don't personally see why. Mechanically Paladins are probably the strongest tank in the game between the abundance of cooldowns and passive block being so powerful. Where Paladins suffer the most is in solo play where their dps is abysmally low and the one ability they have, Sword Oath, is the longest running joke of 2.x

 

If Dark Knight comes in and offers all the cooldown versatility and massive secondary mitigation of Paladin with the AoE threat and solo DPS of the Warrior? Then yes you will probably see a lot of people jumping ship to board the hype train. Of course this could easily be fixed by redoing sword oath to not be garbage and increasing the AoE threat of Paladin while also giving warrior something to compensate for their lack of a block passive.

 

Overall where this really matters is in raiding. If Dark Knight doesn't have the passive mitigation and cooldown versatility of Paladin I'm going to put my money on Paladin staying the strongest tank with Warrior and Dark Knight being interchangeable as Off Tanks.

 

---

 

On to the RP side of things!

 

So here's the thing with greatswords: Fantasy games have played up their prominence and capability to an extreme degree. That is not to say that a great sword isn't good at what it's intended to do: cleaving a bloody swathe through unarmored foes and the legs of horses. 

 

Like all jobs it is good to remember that there is a tool for every job. You're not going to bring a pair of pliers to a decking job when you need a hammer and nails, instead. 

 

What does that mean for warfare and combat? Well it means that there is no "one tool fixes all" in melee warfare which is why there are so many different weapons throughout history. Some of them are good or even great, some of them are terrible and beg the question: -WHY?!-. Greatswords tend to be the marriage of a long cutting edge of a long sword or a messer sword, with the chopping force of a long axe. Some might argue that you could throw short spear in there but I disagree on the basis of how a spear is wielded and a greatsword is still shorter than a short spear; unless they mean javelins in which case you don't throw the damn greatsword gdi.

 

With that in mind, if you're fighting a bunch of opponents that have light or no armor or cavalry then a greatsword is excellent. Greatsword blades don't cut through solid or well made metal armor, however, since the cutting edge is spread out over too much space to penetrate your opponent. CAN you defeat an armored foe with a greatsword? Of course, but you can also kill someone with a broken bottle, too, it doesn't make it the best tool for the job.

 

On to swords and shields. The shield as a concept has been around in practice from some of the most ancient civilizations like the Egyptian wood and ox hide shields to the famous Roman Scutum and the Viking Linden board round shields then moving on to modern day riot shields. The idea of putting a solid barrier between yourself and direct harm is something I think all of us can get behind (see what I did there?). A shield wasn't just a defensive barrier that took up a spot on your arm and occasionally absorbed an arrow shot, rather it was a solid wall between your enemy's weapon and your body, a mobile and often maneuverable shell that could block, parry, and especially trap an opponents weapon, and an effective bashing weapon. One of the most effective shield combinations is a medium sized shield, usually round or rectangular, and a short sword (Like the gladius). Even more so if you can present a shield wall to your enemies and arm your soldiers with spears as well, i.e. the phalanx.

 

Though I think we're supposedly focusing on one-on-one combat. I could probably present pages of scenarios to you about sword-and-shield vs. greatsword and what is better etc etc. I think someone mentioned HEMA earlier, too, and they'll know what I'm talking about in that regard. I will say that just 'off the cuff' in my opinion with two equally skilled and armored opponents you will likely see the person with the sword and shield overcoming the greatsword wielder more often just because that shield is a highly effective and adaptable tool while a greatsword only does one thing, maybe two if you count the occasional parry.

 

On a somewhat personal peeve I will say that I very often see this idea touted about with characters wielding this massive greatswords with relative ease and the thing is wide enough that they claim they just plant it in the ground and it can block arrows and even BULLETS. I will grant that this is Final Fantasy so ridiculous and fantastical things can and do happen like Cloud for example. HOWEVER since we have 'normal' looking swords with most of them being proportional as the majority I'm going to say that a cloud sword is just sort of ridiculous as a notion. Hell even I find Raubahn's swords to be too big and heavy to be using effectively with one in each hand. But regardless, using a sword as a shield just seems ridiculous even for FF. Plus it sounds like a good way to get your sword broken and/or shattered since it's not designed to take those kinds of impacts (small high velocity shots) on the flat. Not to mention that it's heavy and unwieldy! There's a video of a guy who made a replica of Cloud's Buster Sword and then had some body builder try to swing it around and he just couldn't do it, it weight like 50-60 pounds (a normal greatsword weighs probably 4-5). Finally, with such a large weapon your range of strikes is rather limited to downwards chops and horizontal cuts. You might get a thrust in but remember, it's not a spear. A one handed sword just has a lot more flexibility, range of motion, penetrating power if you half-sword especially, and would be faster. I know it's Final Fantasy but I just dislike the anime greatsword trope e.e

You make greatswords look like shit. While I'm not really a greatsword fan (rapiers ftw), they aren't even that heavy and clumsy, there are bigger and heavier weapons that we can still use effectively (you could even wield with only one hand some of them, if you are strong enough).

Also if I see someone using sword and shield beating someone with a greatsword without problems just because they can "block everything and kill anything that bleeds", I'd never RP with the sword and board user.

[Aduu Avagnar]

The issue is that due to DnD, Greatswords have taken on the role of a two-handed sword, which isn't truly the case. A medieval Longsword is classed as a Greatsword, as it is based on the blade length. The handedness of the sword is determined primarily by the hilt, and weather it was designed for one handed fighting, two handed or hand and a half.

 

Given the Greatswords we are talking about fall into the two handed category, you wouldn't want to use one in a single hand. It's not designed for it, even if you could carry it due to the weight. The balance wouldn't be correct.

 

The sort of swords we're likely to see would be a Zweihander or Claymore (literally meaning Great sword in Gaelic), maybe with a Flamberge style blade. These were designed to combat troops not protected by plate, as although the concussive force was great, it wouldn't cut through it. Which is why moves such as the mordstreich where you would use the quillions or hilt to deal a concussive blow to your oponents head.

 

And one of the reasons why generally a Sword and Shield would come out over a two handed sword?

 

reach.

 

Unless you have the space to swing it, a two handed sword is very limited in what you can do with it. Someone within your reach is at a very distinct advantage. That is not to say there is nothing the two handed sword wielder can do, push off against the shield to create room, stab down over the shield to try and catch a gap in the armour. It's just the options are more limited.

 

Also, your comment about sword and board user 'beating someone with a greatsword without problems just because they can "block everything and kill anything that bleeds"' can be applied to just about anyone. I've heard of someone taking a full on blow from a piercing weapon, to the chest, and only received a scratch.... That shit would have slipped through ribs and pierced a lung.

[mongi291]

The issue is that due to DnD, Greatswords have taken on the role of a two-handed sword, which isn't truly the case. A medieval Longsword is classed as a Greatsword, as it is based on the blade length. The handedness of the sword is determined primarily by the hilt, and weather it was designed for one handed fighting, two handed or hand and a half.

 

Given the Greatswords we are talking about fall into the two handed category, you wouldn't want to use one in a single hand. It's not designed for it, even if you could carry it due to the weight. The balance wouldn't be correct.

 

The sort of swords we're likely to see would be a Zweihander or Claymore (literally meaning Great sword in Gaelic), maybe with a Flamberge style blade. These were designed to combat troops not protected by plate, as although the concussive force was great, it wouldn't cut through it. Which is why moves such as the mordstreich where you would use the quillions or hilt to deal a concussive blow to your oponents head.

 

And one of the reasons why generally a Sword and Shield would come out over a two handed sword?

 

reach.

 

Unless you have the space to swing it, a two handed sword is very limited in what you can do with it. Someone within your reach is at a very distinct advantage. That is not to say there is nothing the two handed sword wielder can do, push off against the shield to create room, stab down over the shield to try and catch a gap in the armour. It's just the options are more limited.

 

Also, your comment about sword and board user 'beating someone with a greatsword without problems just because they can "block everything and kill anything that bleeds"' can be applied to just about anyone. I've heard of someone taking a full on blow from a piercing weapon, to the chest, and only received a scratch.... That shit would have slipped through ribs and pierced a lung.

The "block everything and kill anything that bleeds" thing was just an 8-bit Theather quote... But nevermind. What I meant was, if I'm doing RP combat as a greatsword user, against someone using sword and shield, and they start godmoding with the excuse of being faster or whatsoever, I'd be pissed off. As it's always the case with godmoding.

[Aduu Avagnar]

The issue is that due to DnD, Greatswords have taken on the role of a two-handed sword, which isn't truly the case. A medieval Longsword is classed as a Greatsword, as it is based on the blade length. The handedness of the sword is determined primarily by the hilt, and weather it was designed for one handed fighting, two handed or hand and a half.

 

Given the Greatswords we are talking about fall into the two handed category, you wouldn't want to use one in a single hand. It's not designed for it, even if you could carry it due to the weight. The balance wouldn't be correct.

 

The sort of swords we're likely to see would be a Zweihander or Claymore (literally meaning Great sword in Gaelic), maybe with a Flamberge style blade. These were designed to combat troops not protected by plate, as although the concussive force was great, it wouldn't cut through it. Which is why moves such as the mordstreich where you would use the quillions or hilt to deal a concussive blow to your oponents head.

 

And one of the reasons why generally a Sword and Shield would come out over a two handed sword?

 

reach.

 

Unless you have the space to swing it, a two handed sword is very limited in what you can do with it. Someone within your reach is at a very distinct advantage. That is not to say there is nothing the two handed sword wielder can do, push off against the shield to create room, stab down over the shield to try and catch a gap in the armour. It's just the options are more limited.

 

Also, your comment about sword and board user 'beating someone with a greatsword without problems just because they can "block everything and kill anything that bleeds"' can be applied to just about anyone. I've heard of someone taking a full on blow from a piercing weapon, to the chest, and only received a scratch.... That shit would have slipped through ribs and pierced a lung.

The "block everything and kill anything that bleeds" thing was just an 8-bit Theather quote... But nevermind. What I meant was, if I'm doing RP combat as a greatsword user, against someone using sword and shield, and they start godmoding with the excuse of being faster or whatsoever, I'd be pissed off. As it's always the case with godmoding.

except thats an issue with godmodders, rather than anything else.and which is where if you're that worried about it, use rolls rather than freeform.

[Warren Castille]

What I meant was, if I'm doing RP combat, and they start godmoding, I'd be pissed off. As it's always the case with godmoding.

 

Broken down into base components, I don't think anyone would argue with this statement.

[SunTzu7]

Newton will always, always be a Paladin, but Dark Knight and its lore are really, really in for how Artemis is going to develop post 2.55. I have her picking up a bunch of weapons anyway, so the greatsword thing isn't as much of an issue.

 

Mechanically I suppose it depends on how the class plays if I pick it up as a main class, but I love Paladin, I love Warrior, so odds are pretty good I'll love Dark Knight.

 

Although if I'm honest, playing giant sword wielding Batman is pretty much a winner regardless.