Is this common for tanks?

[Darien Cadell]

Ideally, to make a good raid video, you'd need everyone capturing it, and from then you could put together a damn good tutorial video after the fact. You'd also need to get some good screenshots and stuff.

 

And that is far more time consuming than anyone who raids actually cares to do.

 

That would be amazing. And a sad truth. I do watch videos/read guides if I'm approaching a fight that's been around for a while or that I haven't done in a long, long time. I was gone for a few months, missed a patch's worth of dungeons, went and read up on them before jumping in. There's definitely a disparity, though, between reading someone's instructions and enacting them in the field. You know things, but you don't really know them, you know. If something's still brand spanking new content, I'm more willing to try winging it because I figure what guides are out there have basically zero polish at that point.

 

I'm actually very pro-doing-damage for healers. I just have that little faith in the average pick-up tank and am highly reluctant to go all out blasting until a few trash packs get me a feel for how much leeway I have to keep the group alive while contributing to damage output, how many risks the other party members take, how good the tank is with cooldowns, etc. I'm better at it than I used to be, though. I was an -always keep tank at 99%- healer when I was still learning. Now I'm usually like, eh, 50% health is good enough.

 

I think "don't do nothing" aka "please help keep the group moving" is on point for everyone really. It's obvious for DPS, but absolutely includes healers and tanks. Low level (any level) tanks who use none of their cooldowns whatsoever really aren't helping, and would definitely contribute to a situation like happened in the original post.

[Kellach Woods]

Personally, if I'm not going 100% in a dungeon it's because I'm either testing something out, learning my rotation or I'm literally falling asleep at the keyboard.

 

The third is bad, but the other two are because I want to improve as a player and understand some of what makes the game tick.

[Leomoon]

I am not entirely sure about what level my gear was, I typically upgraded gear as was offered to me through MSQs, but level 20 gear at a level 28 dungeon doesn't sound too bad to me(?) Maybe I am mistaken though.

If they were whites/NQ, it's a pretty big gap. If they were dungeon pinks/greens, it's not as big of a deal. Anything more than 10 levels you will start to notice extreme differences in ability, no matter how good each player is.

 

Mmn.... most likely had at least 1-2 dungeon drops I guess. I'm still not entirely sure either way but I do remember that I would sometimes go for a number of levels before a new upgrade showed up. Having said that, I've levelled a number of character so I could be thinking of non-tanks either.

 

Ah, ignore my post then, OP!

If I am remembering his gear right I think the only Greens he had was the chest and maybe the helm.

[Jana]

I just want good written guides. Videos are often too shoddily made to even bother with it because you can't break down the fight consistently as you're doing it.

 

You've not been watching the right videos.

 

[Sounsyy]

You've not been watching the right videos.

 

I second this. MTQ Capture's raid guides are some of the best for breaking down a fight mechanic by mechanic, phase by phase, then showing the whole fight play through to the end. And the videos also always include a written guide in the description below. My raid group uses her videos as a basis for learning the fight, then adapt or incorporate other strategies as we go along to suite our individual needs.

 

That said, nothing will replace actual in-game practice and trial and error. As every individual group differs - be it by party setup, gear variance, or skill level - no one strategy guide can cover every eventuality your particular group may face. That would require the video to be as long as one of Mr. Happy's guides... and those are... incredibly lacking... to be polite. Also, having knowledge of what happens in a fight does not compare to having the fight committed to muscle memory.

[Kellach Woods]

I'd still rather have a written guide because with dual monitor setup I can at least have a cheatsheet.

 

But that video's actually pretty good since it's exactly what I described.

[Caspar]

*snipped for length*

 

You're... joking, right?

 

If it was a healer's job to DPS, then they would be queued as such in duty finder, or at least given the option to do so.

 

As it stands now, this is not how the game is designed, thus if you are WHM or SCH, your first and foremost priority should be the safety and well-being of your fellow party members. If you don't feel comfortable DPSing, then don't. There's no reason to take a risk just because you can and frankly there's very little I can think of more frustrating than watching some wannabe BLM spam Holy over and over while everyone else burns.

 

If there's a reasonable window to switch into Cleric's, then sure, go for it, but it's not a requirement by any means, nor does it shirk one from what they were brought there to do in the first place just because the option is available.

 

It's selfish attitudes like this that push our potential healers away from ever picking up a cane or grimoire. No one deserves to be abused for having what ultimately amounts to a cautious play style, much less so if they're wiling to endure what is, in my opinion, the most selfless role one can ever play in an RPG.

 

--Signed, a frequent stance dancer

I think that you are not obligated to DPS as a healer. My static's WHM takes this attitude. She averages like 2-3 dps.

 

So she solo-heals everything. The SCH basically only DPS and mitigates when absolutely necessary. Sure she doesn't DPS, but when you don't, you should be taken to task to make up for it in other ways. To take ownership of your role in the party means to learn to do everything that the class entails. If you wish to play only a certain way, that's fine. There are groups and players who will accommodate that play style. Much as a Healer isn't obligated to DPS, parties are not obligated to accept one who doesn't in hard content. The 200-300 our SCH does has been instrumental in ensuring our static beats every DPS check with ease, and has done so since First Coil. If you don't avail yourself of every useful tool your class possesses, expect criticism. It's like a Monk not using Fists of Earth to mitigate unavoidable damage; there's no reason not to, aside from of course lack of comfort or practice in a given fight, being caught unawares, etc. I just hope the critic is polite about it.

 

I don't think easy content should be taken quite as seriously, but I'd say something similar to what Otto did; low effort on the part of the Healer, or any party member in easy content, sometimes reflects a disregard for the free time of others as well as your own. I think that's different from being cautious because the tank gets hit hard. To a certain extent, I also sort of feel that learning how much damage a tank can generally take before they're in danger is part of learning when to use Cleric's Stance, which can be a helpful tool for understanding how to heal efficiently as well as deal damage. I myself try to do as much damage as possible in every single role I play. I don't like wasting time and I don't like wasting the time of others, though I have to be cautious when playing a class I'm not as comfortable with. I don't think people should just open up a can of verbal whoopass on a healer who doesn't DPS, but that's more of a problem with personality than the game or in game culture itself. Obviously some people take it too far.

 

In my experience, the player who is willing to change their own play and understands their role in more than one way, not just in healing, or doing damage, is the one who clears. To me that's 'selfless'; being willing to extend outside of your comfort zone and learn a new approach. Doing well in this game doesn't take some innate inborn talent or meticulous study, just time and an attitude adjustment IMO.

[Altitis Acquired]

Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.

 

I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.

[Caspar]

Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.

 

I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.

That does sound like my kind of healing.

 

Or tanking, even. Clearly you "tank" by killing the enemy, thus lowering the chance they'll do damage to your allies. It makes perfect sense!

[Altitis Acquired]

Ah, DPS-Healers... I loved the Disciple of Khaine class for Dark Elves in Warhammer Online. All up front, doing rogue-like dual-wielding swords, slashing the opponents and using their blood as the catalyst for their healing and buffing powers.

 

I miss that. It was so awesome. So much cooler than just standing in the back and throw heals.

That does sound like my kind of healing.

 

Or tanking, even. Clearly you "tank" by killing the enemy, thus lowering the chance they'll do damage to your allies. It makes perfect sense!

 

HAH! Good point!

I hope to get a good experience as a Dark Knight. I love the theme of the job, but I've never been good at tanking. And I don't like the Paladin or Warrior classes. Not so much because they are tanks, but because the theme of them aren't fitting my characters. I tried Marauder with one of them, but I jumped the Rogue/Ninja class as soon it was released.

 

Dark Knight would fit my Au Ra though. Always loved the darker themes. ^^

[Flickering Ember]

Going back to the original topic, yes it is common for tanks to be under geared, as well as any other class. My equipment is usually many levels underneath my own. Sounsyy pretty much already stated the reasons why in an earlier post. Updating equipment every five levels is really costly, especially for someone who doesn't actively go out and grind gil. I usually rely on dungeons drops to gear myself leveling up. This also means that it is harder to replace with gear off the market board. I've found that dungeon gear can still be better than here a few levels higher than it.

 

I did level up marauder/warrior to 50. Although I did have a few bad groups, most of my runs have gone well enough.

[Kellach Woods]

During my first run of MRD/WAR up to 50, I don't think I had any problems with threat up until... level 50, where my i49 weapon just wouldn't cut it.

[Gegenji]

Usually my threat issues - especially on Judge when I was rushing him through the MSQ and he was almost constantly under-geared - came from getting someone doing their relic or (especially once I hit the level 50 stuff) just getting someone who was solidly well geared. It's always going to be difficult being i50 or even as high as i90 and getting paired with DPS that has an iLevel in the triple-digits.

 

... That said, I somehow kept stealing aggro from better geared tanks when doing the Primals. Likely because I use the full Unleash combo off the bat and even with low-level gear, that sort of damage attracts a lot of hate. :blush:

[Asmodean]

During my first run of MRD/WAR up to 50, I don't think I had any problems with threat up until... level 50, where my i49 weapon just wouldn't cut it.

 As a tank main on Ultros I can say I see this happens a lot for new players having just hit 50. I can never stress enough how important you weapon is. I have seen player try mass pulls in things like Brayflox Hard with Ilevel 90 weapon and they think they can handle it, while both dps have 130/135. People just don't seem to think about how geared they are compared to others when doing dungeons now and I feel hurts the player base to a point.

[Sounsyy]

Did Battle on the Big Bridge as MRD the other day. Was just gonna dps cuz you don't need two tanks in that fight. Ended up getting paired with a new PLD that hadn't done the fight before. I winded up checking him cuz low HP. Turns out he was i50 maybe? Ifrit sword and VIT gear. I was like ohhhh there's no way this poor thing's gonna be able to keep hate off me even as MRD.

 

Lemme just say getting mini'd as MRD MT while both your new healers are frogged is NOT fun. Won though. PLD insisted on staying in Shield Oath the whole time though, even though he was 3rd on the hate list.

[LiadansWhisper]

Did Battle on the Big Bridge as MRD the other day. Was just gonna dps cuz you don't need two tanks in that fight. Ended up getting paired with a new PLD that hadn't done the fight before. I winded up checking him cuz low HP. Turns out he was i50 maybe? Ifrit sword and VIT gear. I was like ohhhh there's no way this poor thing's gonna be able to keep hate off me even as MRD.

 

Lemme just say getting mini'd as MRD MT while both your new healers are frogged is NOT fun. Won though. PLD insisted on staying in Shield Oath the whole time though, even though he was 3rd on the hate list.

 

Bless his heart.

 

 

...I don't mind tanks being undergeared, but it would be nice if they wouldn't believe they were geared enough to pull half the instance and then start wailing about not getting heals when they die in 2-3 seconds.

[Kellach Woods]

Did Battle on the Big Bridge as MRD the other day. Was just gonna dps cuz you don't need two tanks in that fight. Ended up getting paired with a new PLD that hadn't done the fight before. I winded up checking him cuz low HP. Turns out he was i50 maybe? Ifrit sword and VIT gear. I was like ohhhh there's no way this poor thing's gonna be able to keep hate off me even as MRD.

 

Lemme just say getting mini'd as MRD MT while both your new healers are frogged is NOT fun. Won though. PLD insisted on staying in Shield Oath the whole time though, even though he was 3rd on the hate list.

 

this is one of the many, MANY reasons I do not like that VIT is completely useless (or that VIT gear exists in the first place)

[Aduu Avagnar]

I use Vit gear, cause I don't trust pug healers, don't have issues with threat and it works for me. That said, with the expanding of the Poetics Cap I am going to be picking up STR gear.

[Kellach Woods]

I use Vit gear, cause I don't trust pug healers, don't have issues with threat and it works for me. That said, with the expanding of the Poetics Cap I am going to be picking up STR gear.

 

You may as well at least for accessories, since they'll work for MNK and DRG.

[Gegenji]

I use Vit gear, cause I don't trust pug healers, don't have issues with threat and it works for me. That said, with the expanding of the Poetics Cap I am going to be picking up STR gear.

 

You may as well at least for accessories, since they'll work for MNK and DRG.

 

Another reason why I like having the STR accessories - especially on Gogon. That's four classes that are sharing right side, saving my Poetics for other things. It's combat-effective AND cost-effective! :lol:

[Kellach Woods]

Honestly, I just hope they phase out the VIT accessories at level 60.

[111]

VIT is very useful...

 

It's just not that useful outside of progression raiding.

 

If you did t5, t9, or t13 during progression, and didn't essentially max out on vit, you would get instant killed by many abilities as a tank.

[Kellach Woods]

So, uh, it's useful for a very minor subsection of people, in very limited context.

Sounds like they could just do away with that, roll the extra VIT into Shield Oath/Defiance, and save people the headache.

[Melkire]

I asked a buddy of mine back when FCoB was released what T13 was like. He told me it was Flare Central and Land of VIT Jewels.

 

I'd say that was spot-on.

[111]

So, uh, it's useful for a very minor subsection of people, in very limited context.

Sounds like they could just do away with that, roll the extra VIT into Shield Oath/Defiance, and save people the headache.

 

The game isn't balanced for casual players, its balanced for hardcore raiders. Everyone else is balanced off the needs of the 4 or 5% of people who progression raid.

 

They really only take balance into context based on raid content.

 

As an example, Black Mages always had bad single target dps, especially when moving, but they never cared. However when 2nd coil came out, they realized after a few weeks that black mages weren't as competitive. So they buffed their single target. Same thing with Dragoons in final coil.

 

If you've never done the raids in progression they all have aggressive rage timers and other dps race mechanics. Shaving off a bit of vitality for more STR and more dps is one of those little balancing acts.

 

Also other classes often had to wear VIT gear to survive t13 before nerfs came out, so it wasn't even just for tanks.

 

Accuracy caps and total HP are two things that are incredibly important for gearing in progression, but other than that you'd never run into them.