V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #26 Posted June 8, 2015 "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up." "Now watch while we drown everybody because we're pissed off and having a bad day." Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #27 Posted June 8, 2015 "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up." "Now watch while we drown everybody because we're pissed off and having a bad day." I actually thought the whole drowning thing was them saying, "No, you can't have that anymore." I got the feeling they were looking for parallels with the Biblical Flood, if you will. Mankind becomes too evil to allow to continue one, queue lots of water to "wash" things clean. Link to comment
Gone. Posted June 8, 2015 Share #28 Posted June 8, 2015 Which puts elementals in the moral wrong, really. I'm pretty sure a lot of innocent people drowned that day. My point was more that you can be doing this Really Great Thing as a White Mage, that saves a bunch of lives and is generally amazing and awesome. Or, at least, you think you're doing the right thing. And you're still destroying the land (though probably not in a way that you immediately realize). That's the issue with White Magic - even doing the right thing, you can still screw everything up. Which is why the Elementals were like, "Nope, no one else gets to use this, you guys keep blowing things up. I know you mean well, but you're not touching the hot stove anymore." You're basically restating what I already pointed out, but okay... Link to comment
V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #29 Posted June 8, 2015 Elementals seem a lot like Ascians, really: they want the world to be their way no matter who has to get stepped on. And to further this goal they lend power out to their lackeys. 1 Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #30 Posted June 8, 2015 Which puts elementals in the moral wrong, really. I'm pretty sure a lot of innocent people drowned that day. Sure, if you ascribe Human morality to beings that are not, and never have been, human. Elementals seem a lot like Ascians, really: they want the world to be their way no matter who has to get stepped on. And to further this goal they lend power out to their lackeys. Not really. What the Elementals did was specifically to save the world from being destroyed. Link to comment
Aduu Avagnar Posted June 8, 2015 Share #31 Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, many innocents died when the Elementals flooded the earth, but the alternative was the destruction of the planet. Greater good and all that. Link to comment
V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #32 Posted June 8, 2015 What the Elementals did was specifically to save the world from being destroyed. And the Ascians want to return the world to its natural state, to undo its prior destruction at the hands of the parasite Hydaelyn. Link to comment
Aduu Avagnar Posted June 8, 2015 Share #33 Posted June 8, 2015 What the Elementals did was specifically to save the world from being destroyed. And the Ascians want to return the world to its natural state, to undo its prior destruction at the hands of the parasite Hydaelyn. edit: Don;t mind me, just needed to re-watch a few things Link to comment
Gone. Posted June 8, 2015 Share #34 Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, many innocents died when the Elementals flooded the earth, but the alternative was the destruction of the planet. Greater good and all that. That's.. a very disturbing precedent to set and follow, let alone glorify. Sure, if you ascribe Human morality to beings that are not, and never have been, human. They're obviously intelligent enough to go beyond animal instinct. What else are we supposed to apply to it? Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #35 Posted June 8, 2015 They're obviously intelligent enough to go beyond animal instinct. What else are we supposed to apply to it? Applying Human morality to beings that are not, and never have been Human is foolish at best. They have their own moral code, but it's probably not going to match ours. Because they're not Human. They've never been Human. They will never be Human. That they have the capacity for mercy at all is a damn miracle. We're gnats in comparison. By rights, they shouldn't give us anymore thought than you give the insect you stomp beneath your shoe. But they actually relented and allowed mortals to live in their forest, even knowing that the last time they let anyone in that area, the world almost ended...because of mortals. I don't know about you, but I got stung by a wasp once. I've been killing those fuckers without mercy ever since. Same with ants and cockroaches. No mercy. Even if they aren't messing with me, they have to die. Link to comment
V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #36 Posted June 8, 2015 We're gnats in comparison. That might be overstating their capabilities a bit. Bahamut figuratively backhanded the entire Twelveswood forest without even trying and the Elementals couldn't do a thing to stop it. At most, I'd put them on the level of basic primals, if not lower. Link to comment
Leanne Posted June 8, 2015 Share #37 Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, many innocents died when the Elementals flooded the earth, but the alternative was the destruction of the planet. Greater good and all that. That's.. a very disturbing precedent to set and follow, let alone glorify. Sure, if you ascribe Human morality to beings that are not, and never have been, human. They're obviously intelligent enough to go beyond animal instinct. What else are we supposed to apply to it? They don't care much if we live or die. What they care about is that we don't fuck with them and nature, else they will pull their genocidal magic and kill everyone. Which is one of, if not the major reason for Gridania's xenophobic bias. The Shroud is territory from the elementals, borrowed to us so we can live in it. If the elementals didn't like you, they would instantly pull their guns and bombard you and others in proximity with the forest itself. (Greenwrath) Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #38 Posted June 8, 2015 We're gnats in comparison. That might be overstating their capabilities a bit. Bahamut figuratively backhanded the entire Twelveswood forest without even trying and the Elementals couldn't do a thing to stop it. At most, I'd put them on the level of basic primals, if not lower. You're forgetting that they were severely weakened by the summoning spell that was supposed to draw the Twelve into the world and imprison Bahamut. As well as things that the Garleans were doing to mess up the flow of Aether across Eorzea. Louisoix's spell may very well have stripped more Aether out of the land than the great Mage War did. At the very least, it was a massive amount of Aether at one time. But, I was not actually speaking of their power. I was speaking of their perspective. They are, as far as we know, eternal. They never age, they never die. They've always been around. Their mindset is not going to be anything resembling their mindset, because they're not mortal. I don't really know how else to explain it, but if you had lived for as long as time, and you would continue to live as long as time (barring world destruction or other meddling), your mindset would probably be similar. Mortal lives would have no more impact on you than a match being lit and then burning out in seconds. Link to comment
V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #39 Posted June 8, 2015 But then doesn't that go right back to my point about the Elementals sharing significant similarities in actions and philosophy to the Ascians? The Ascians are also immortal, undying magical entities that have existed for as long as the world itself (possibly longer). The death of Nabriales actually disturbed Lahabrea himself, because an Ascian dying is simply something that does not happen. Link to comment
TheLastCandle Posted June 8, 2015 Share #40 Posted June 8, 2015 The Elementals are the Twelveswood. Their power is not infinite, but it is considerable. And they are not afraid to use it when they feel that their domain is being threatened. They are neither good nor evil; they simply Are. In essence, Elementals be like: Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #41 Posted June 8, 2015 They don't care much if we live or die. What they care about is that we don't fuck with them and nature, else they will pull their genocidal magic and kill everyone. Which is one of, if not the major reason for Gridania's xenophobic bias. The Shroud is territory from the elementals, borrowed to us so we can live in it. If the elementals didn't like you, they would instantly pull their guns and bombard you and others in proximity with the forest itself. (Greenwrath) The Gridanian motto really should be, "Get off my damn lawn!" But then doesn't that go right back to my point about the Elementals sharing significant similarities in actions and philosophy to the Ascians? The Ascians are also immortal, undying magical entities that have existed for as long as the world itself (possibly longer). The death of Nabriales actually disturbed Lahabrea himself, because an Ascian dying is simply something that does not happen. Spoilering this in case people haven't gone through the MSQ. No, because the Ascians were once mortal. They became immortal through completely artificial means, which was explored fairly well in the MSQs. They aren't as old as the world itself, they came into being (as far as we know) after the world came into being. And, as far as Nabriales being disturbed about Lahabrea, yeah, he was. Because the Ascians believed that they had a fool-proof way around the whole "all men must die" problem that mortals have. Except they're still killable. Oops. Link to comment
V'aleera Posted June 8, 2015 Share #42 Posted June 8, 2015 While the only source on Ascian origins we have is not entirely trustworthy (being the Ascians themselves) we know that they at least believe their kind predates the present world as we know it. The possible exceptions being Lahabrea and Elidibus who are referred to as "of this world" (and thus able to bypass the ward created by the Blessing of Light). The Ascians claim to have instigated seven rejoinings, each corresponding with the seven eras, with the express purpose of seeing the world return to the state in which it existed before the existence of Hydaelyn. Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 8, 2015 Share #43 Posted June 8, 2015 While the only source on Ascian origins we have is not entirely trustworthy (being the Ascians themselves) we know that they at least believe their kind predates the present world as we know it. The possible exceptions being Lahabrea and Elidibus who are referred to as "of this world" (and thus able to bypass the ward created by the Blessing of Light). The Ascians claim to have instigated seven rejoinings, each corresponding with the seven eras, with the express purpose of seeing the world return to the state in which it existed before the existence of Hydaelyn. Since we can't know with absolute certainty that they're lying/wrong (although it's implied that they are what they are by wholly unnatural means, and they have repeatedly used deceit and trickery to achieve their aims, so we know that they lie as a matter of course), I'm not going to fight you on this one, although I believe they're lying when they claim to be "before the creation of the world." With that said, the comparison still doesn't work. The Elementals have always been about the protection of the land and the protection of the world over all else - which is why they flooded the world in the first place. The Ascians have never been about the protection of the world, and have acted with deliberate and explicit malice towards those they have used and destroyed. There's no indication of actual malice on the part of the Elementals - they'd just as soon be happy off by themselves without any mortals bugging them. They haven't ever been witnessed acting in a proactive manner, either. Everything the Elementals have ever done has been in reaction to things done to the land, aetherflow, etc. I still don't agree with you about the whole "pre-world" thing, since the Ascians have always seemed to be attempting to say that Hydaelyn and the world are separate (whereas the player character is told they're the same thing) and that they came into being before Hydaelyn existed, but that the world existed before Hydaelyn. Link to comment
Kichiro Gunji Posted June 8, 2015 Author Share #44 Posted June 8, 2015 So... been giving it a lot of thought. I've an idea for a plot arch for Scorpio to become a Scholar, but I'd like to hear some others' views of it. Would this be an OK thread for it or where should I post it? Link to comment
Addison Posted June 8, 2015 Share #45 Posted June 8, 2015 It sounds as if magic users really got the shaft lore wise. Would a conjurer with a greater affinity towards healing magic rather than destructive be a viable option to play? WHM was my favorite class in XI, and I like the mechanics thus far in this game, but I am sorely disappointed that my character ICly would be viewed as nuts or people would refuse to RP with me because she's a WHM. I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? Link to comment
Aduu Avagnar Posted June 8, 2015 Share #46 Posted June 8, 2015 It sounds as if magic users really got the shaft lore wise. Would a conjurer with a greater affinity towards healing magic rather than destructive be a viable option to play? WHM was my favorite class in XI, and I like the mechanics thus far in this game, but I am sorely disappointed that my character ICly would be viewed as nuts or people would refuse to RP with me because she's a WHM. I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? I wouldn't say casters got the shaft at all, the only two with any difficult to RP are Summoner and White Mage, thats 2 out of 7 options, with a 3rd being fairly close to the line. And yes, Conjurers do often heal, there is one assissting in a pregnancy I believe in Hawthorne Hut, something that only a trained healer would do back in the day, also Conjury itself does lend itself to healing, as well as being a force for nature. Link to comment
Martiallais Posted June 8, 2015 Share #47 Posted June 8, 2015 I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? I would just remember, at the end of the day you're playing the game for YOUR enjoyment and your character. Everyone has a different view of the pretendy funtimes we enjoy and thankfully as not all our views are the same, there are differing sandboxes that we can all play in without having to resort to kicking sand in each others eyes. It's just a matter of finding the right sandbox and folks to play in who have the same view as you do. 1 Link to comment
FreelanceWizard Posted June 8, 2015 Share #48 Posted June 8, 2015 It sounds as if magic users really got the shaft lore wise. Would a conjurer with a greater affinity towards healing magic rather than destructive be a viable option to play? WHM was my favorite class in XI, and I like the mechanics thus far in this game, but I am sorely disappointed that my character ICly would be viewed as nuts or people would refuse to RP with me because she's a WHM. I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? Casters pretty much did get the shaft, yes. With the goal of making the player character feel like the One True Hero, the lore devs basically wrote between two and four entire classes -- depending on your point of view on various lore bits -- out of the realm of ready access in RP. Adding insult to injury, for White Mages, they did it in a downright sloppy manner, IMO. With that said, you can definitely be a healer without being a White Mage or even having access to Succor. Arcanists can readily heal people, as can conjurers. One needn't wield powers that some feel the Sons of Man are unworthy of to be able to heal. Link to comment
Rakoh Posted June 8, 2015 Share #49 Posted June 8, 2015 It sounds as if magic users really got the shaft lore wise. Would a conjurer with a greater affinity towards healing magic rather than destructive be a viable option to play? WHM was my favorite class in XI, and I like the mechanics thus far in this game, but I am sorely disappointed that my character ICly would be viewed as nuts or people would refuse to RP with me because she's a WHM. I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? Conjurers don't only heal; the focus to purely healing was a retcon in 2.0. Conjurers are elementalists that are also able heal. While healing is definitely a core aspect of the Conjurer, it is not the only part of them. Easiest way to think of them is like a D&D Druid, without all of the badass shapeshifting. Anyway, there's plenty of people that have Conjurers that specialise in healing so I don't see what the problem is with going for a Conjurer that mostly heals people . As for RPing a WHM, that would be more difficult because the Padjals tightly regulate who they teach. You do have to get creative. Maybe they were exploring Amdapoor and found a Soulstone? Maybe they discovered some ancient tome depicting the techniques? Maybe the character has a deep affinity with the Elementals? Just remember that there will be a LOT of people that would react sceptically to this. There is also absolutely nothing that is stopping you from Roleplaying as "Magic User that can Heal" without going into the THM/CNJ/ACN stuff . It all depends on how your character can use the aether. Link to comment
LiadansWhisper Posted June 9, 2015 Share #50 Posted June 9, 2015 It sounds as if magic users really got the shaft lore wise. Would a conjurer with a greater affinity towards healing magic rather than destructive be a viable option to play? WHM was my favorite class in XI, and I like the mechanics thus far in this game, but I am sorely disappointed that my character ICly would be viewed as nuts or people would refuse to RP with me because she's a WHM. I guess the major question is can a player roleplay a healer at all without a lot of IC grief? Conjurers are extremely common, and it's completely viable to play one. They are primarily trained in Stillglade Fane in Gridania. Link to comment
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