Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

[Dravus]

I've noticed that many role-players are prone to messaging someone with an apology in response to the slightest hint of potential conflict. It's a shame that people feel obligated to do that since I would have thought it obvious that what a character says and does is generally separate from what a role-player says and does.

 

Obviously there's exceptions to this - such as people using their character as a vehicle to harass people - but that is far from being the norm. Could people be shying away from controversial characters simply because of the expectation to explain themselves at every turn, I wonder?

 

I think it's awesome that people are willing to poke others and go "Hey, I hope my IC behaviour is alright with you, and I'm just letting you know that I don't mean any of this OOCly. <3", because it shows consideration and compassion. It helps making a bond of consent between the two parts which could mean any future RP between the two would go well as well.

 

After I've done some RP with someone, I usually send people a tell, saying "Hey, thanks for the RP. ^^" to show that I had an enjoyable time with them and that I might want to have more with those people in the future.

 

When RP'ing someone who is very aggressive in a negative way, such as being a racist douchebag, I find it important to have the consent of the people I RP with, because if they don't find it alright, then they're not the people I am going to RP with.

 

I am not in this to harrass people. I RP what I want to RP, but if I approach someone who doesn't like the way I RP, then I will just find someone else to RP with. Should I continue to approach that same person in the same way, then I am harrassing him... and that's not alright!

 

I can understand it happening if people are exploring some pretty intense themes but it does come across as if people are 'babying' each other at times. I'll quite happily message someone to thank them for interacting with me if I've enjoyed my time with them but I've never really felt like it's been necessary for people to apologise just because their character is a bit of a jerk.

 

I mean, it's not like the game apologises (or needs to do so) each time someone comes across an NPC who happens to be a bit of a prick. I think more role-players need to avoid letting IC and OOC bleed into one another and assume that there's no harm meant if a character happens to be a bit nasty.

 

. However, it is also due the whole Hyuran vs Elezen warring that Koji Fox has been quoted about.

 

You mean that thing that is barely shown in-game? The only times I've seen it would be that part and the barring of one of Gridania's areas but mechanically it's off-limits to adventurers period (with the implications that only the high-ranked/padjal would have access).

 

Honestly y'all clinging to his words a bit too much - if it was that important they'd show it.

 

There's a lot of things that aren't shown in-game. There's only so much that we get to see - and the bulk of the game's lore is uncovered through NPC dialogue and the flavour text of both regular quests and levequests.

 

Though when a prominent developer states that something is a particular way then that's how it is. It's their setting and even if people don't like it stuff doesn't suddenly cease being canon. Shy away from it by all means, but those who seek to embrace it aren't in the wrong for doing so. If anything, they should be applauded for going that much further to remain as true to the setting as possible.

[Kellach Woods]

Though when a prominent developer states that something is a particular way then that's how it is. It's their setting and even if people don't like it stuff doesn't suddenly cease being canon. Shy away from it by all means, but those who seek to embrace it aren't in the wrong for doing so. If anything, they should be applauded for going that much further to remain as true to the setting as possible.

 

When a prominent developer states something like that and continuously refuses to do storylines that involve what he just says, that says more about the developer than the world he created.

 

And I'm contesting the frequency and intensity that this happens, not that it happens at all. If it was important, it would be shown and it would be prominent. We barely have mention of a very specific racial conflict (in this case I was citing Hyur/Elezen specifically).

 

We have more examples of Hyur/Elezen collaboration and tolerance than of outright hatred/racism. Gridania would be fucked without the Hyur and the Elezen who live there know it.

 

Ishgard is a whole other story.

[LiadansWhisper]

Though when a prominent developer states that something is a particular way then that's how it is. It's their setting and even if people don't like it stuff doesn't suddenly cease being canon. Shy away from it by all means, but those who seek to embrace it aren't in the wrong for doing so. If anything, they should be applauded for going that much further to remain as true to the setting as possible.

 

When a prominent developer states something like that and continuously refuses to do storylines that involve what he just says, that says more about the developer than the world he created.

 

And I'm contesting the frequency and intensity that this happens, not that it happens at all. If it was important, it would be shown and it would be prominent. We barely have mention of a very specific racial conflict (in this case I was citing Hyur/Elezen specifically).

 

We have more examples of Hyur/Elezen collaboration and tolerance than of outright hatred/racism. Gridania would be fucked without the Hyur and the Elezen who live there know it.

 

Ishgard is a whole other story.

 

I feel like you have missed the fact that the Hyur and the Elezen founded Gridania together.  In fact, there's a big deal made of this fact.  Interestingly, almost all Padjal come from Hyur families, not Elezen (we only have one known case of an Elezen-born Padjal).  So that they work together is not at all surprising, really, and they also have a third-party scapegoat they can focus frustration on.

 

But I think, too, that what you're also missing is that the developer specifically said that a cardinal example of this conflict is that you do not see regular intermarriage/breeding between the races, despite the fact that they are - for the most part - similar in looks (to the point that they look attractive to everyone involved).  And his reasoning, quite specifically, was that the races have this underlying dislike of each other and it prevents them from interbreeding on a regular basis, with their offspring being outright pariahs.

 

Sure, they're not hanging each other from trees.  No one's said they are.  But despite the fact that we know they are biologically compatible AND physically attractive to one another, they're not breeding with each other.  And, Kellach, you do realize that humans are so into getting it on that we have Neanderthal DNA in our genetic codes?  That's right - Neanderthals and Homo Sapiens made babies together.  Babies that survived to pass on their genes and give us quite a few genes in the immune system area that are directly inherited from Neanderthals.  And by every account, they wouldn't be considered all that attractive.  Yet apparently humans were still boinking them.  But an Elezen turns up his nose at a Hyur, and a Highlander turns up her nose at a Roe, etc, etc.  Even though, physically speaking, they share many, many more attractive traits than Neanderthal shared with Humans.

 

Just some food for thought.

[Kage]

I've been playing exactly to lore. So.

 

"Lalafell are welcoming of outsiders, and share prosperous relations with all of the other races of Eorzea."

[Flickering Ember]

I've noticed that many role-players are prone to messaging someone with an apology in response to the slightest hint of potential conflict. It's a shame that people feel obligated to do that since I would have thought it obvious that what a character says and does is generally separate from what a role-player says and does.

 

Obviously there's exceptions to this - such as people using their character as a vehicle to harass people - but that is far from being the norm. Could people be shying away from controversial characters simply because of the expectation to explain themselves at every turn, I wonder?

 

Though when a prominent developer states that something is a particular way then that's how it is. It's their setting and even if people don't like it stuff doesn't suddenly cease being canon. Shy away from it by all means, but those who seek to embrace it aren't in the wrong for doing so. If anything, they should be applauded for going that much further to remain as true to the setting as possible.

 

When a prominent developer states something like that and continuously refuses to do storylines that involve what he just says, that says more about the developer than the world he created.

 

And I'm contesting the frequency and intensity that this happens, not that it happens at all. If it was important, it would be shown and it would be prominent. We barely have mention of a very specific racial conflict (in this case I was citing Hyur/Elezen specifically).

 

We have more examples of Hyur/Elezen collaboration and tolerance than of outright hatred/racism. Gridania would be fucked without the Hyur and the Elezen who live there know it.

 

Ishgard is a whole other story.

 

 

These two posts go hand in hand. 

 

First, I'd like to thank Kellach for clarifying on this subject. I don't know for sure who brought up disbelief in Eorzea's suffering but I am fairly certain it was me. Since then, my point seems to have played an important point of discussion in this thread. I thought I was done but these two posts create a great combination for me to explain further.

 

FFXIV is a story driven MMO. The developers have said this, the players know this, and it's even justified for barring HW content for players who have not completed the 2.0+ storylines. Regardless of this, when looking of the story of FFXIV, I look at it as a whole--just as I do a movie.

 

In a movie, it is not just writing that tells the story, like in a book. (Same with video games) We have actors or voice actors, the musical score, sets, costumes, etc. etc. Movies and video games are a team effort to create and every little aspect comes together to make something unique. (Not always good, but definitely unique) I believe fans do not give the these lesser known aspects of story-telling enough credit. They have huge impact. And one of those things is:

 

Mood. This is an element of storytelling that goes hand in hand with Tone. The emphasis of FFXIV is not on the suffering, at least not in ARR. The focus is on heroism and adventure, positivity and idealism. Note the contrast of ARR and HW. HW features darker colors and even defaults you to turning off character glow that had previously been enabled in ARR. Clearly, SE was trying to shift the mood of FFXIV from a positive, heroic adventure to a struggle of classism and war. 

 

I know there are plenty of darker aspects to narrow in on ARR. The point I am making is to piggyback off of what Kellach has said: They are out of focus. It's not convincing. (Convincing here from an emotional standpoint, mind you, not from a logical standpoint. It can logically be explained that children are dying of starvation but unless it's emphasized somewhere in the main story, we aren't feeling that emotional impact)

 

If these themes were important, they could include them. But they don't. Instead of making me gather a banquet feast to prove myself able to fight Titan, which we all know is ridiculous, focus on us overcoming the Costa's citizens crappy lives. Instead of giving us quests about delivering love notes or dispersing meals: show us in extreme, horrifying detail romance falling apart or show us NPCs fighting over the meals we disperse. Instead of having us cull a wild population of animals, FF's fall back story for side quests it seems, give an actual story to the side quests. Give them backstory other than "whoa! This animal population is way out of control! Kill them!" How about something like: "Some big bad evil people kidnapped my friend because she's a Duskwight! They're those three in the back of the alley. Go beat them up!" 

 

So...why don't we see more side quests like that? Instead we have side quests that focus on the mundane. If XIV is so story heavy, why not add more essential world-building elements to active parts of the gameplay the same way the main story is an active part of the gameplay? How about some side side quests like Hildibrand and moogle mail except as a serious drama? 

 

When you choose to focus on the mundane (kill 5 boars) and the silly (Hildibrand) it really takes away from the serious, dark world building.

 

Some of it is reader apathy too. When you've seen X amount of horrible things in other stories, it becomes difficult to top them. 'My wife and children are dead' is not the pinnacle for absolute character suffering anymore. It's sad, it's awful and it's entirely normal for fiction. The amount of suffering presented in Eorzea is fantasy status quo that doesn't make it any darker than your standard JRPG or an entertaining D&D romp. It's just enough conflict to justify having adventures and super powers.

 

We have seen a shift in mood with HW taking FFXIV onto a darker road. Right now I'm level 57 and I'm still not seeing this 'Game of Thrones' like quality that has been used as a comparison from the creators. 

 

What does this huge ass post have anything to do with Graeham's post though? Well, just as we have seen a boost in characters who are Elezen or hail from Ishgard, if racist elements were to become more of a focus in story and world building, we would see them more in RP too. 

 

Additionally, surely I'm not the only one who changes the type of characters she roleplays as depending on the setting? A character I would RP in World of Darkness is going to be vastly different from a character in Final Fantasy. In other words, the mood of the setting and game can help affect what people RP as. It made sense to RP a racist in WoW, for example, because racial tensions are pretty much the center of conflict in that universe. If Mr. Koji Fox were to show more details on just how the current races are 'working together but just tolerating each other' then we might see more people RPing these elements.

[Flashhelix]

"Koji Fox may have said X, but it doesn't matter because he doesn't show it!"

 

That's not how creating things work. A developer shouldn't have to justify his every word to you with cutscenes/ingame tidbits/etc. If it were in the game to begin with, it wouldn't even have come up in the dev Q&A. The entire point of those is to expand on things that aren't shown in their entirely ingame.

[Flickering Ember]

"Koji Fox may have said X, but it doesn't matter because he doesn't show it!"

 

That's not how creating things work. A developer shouldn't have to justify his every word to you with cutscenes/ingame tidbits/etc. If it were in the game to begin with, it wouldn't even have come up in the dev Q&A. The entire point of those is to expand on things that aren't shown in their entirely ingame.

 

I absolutely do believe in the usefulness of dev Q&A's for lore. I do believe, though, that if it has to be mentioned in a Q&A instead of showing up in the actual story that it isn't THAT important. (IE: Going back to my previous post about these elements being 'out of focus')

 

What makes Mr. Koji Fox's post problematic though is that his words on race conflicts what we see in game. It's really hard to believe that the various races are 'just tolerating each other' when multiple characters of varying races form friendships with each other.

 

All this time the lalafells in the pugilist guild were just 'tolerating' their sensei, Hamon Holyfist. Biggs and Wedge are just 'tolerating' each other despite being mostly inseparable. Hildibrand and his assistant are just 'tolerating' each other throughout their wacky hijinks. 

 

I thought it was universally agreed upon that "Show, don't tell" was a sign of good story-telling and writing? It certainly should be at least noteworthy in situations like this where what Mr. Koji Fox says in game seems to clash with what we actually see.

[LiadansWhisper]

"Koji Fox may have said X, but it doesn't matter because he doesn't show it!"

 

That's not how creating things work. A developer shouldn't have to justify his every word to you with cutscenes/ingame tidbits/etc. If it were in the game to begin with, it wouldn't even have come up in the dev Q&A. The entire point of those is to expand on things that aren't shown in their entirely ingame.

 

I absolutely do believe in the usefulness of dev Q&A's for lore. I do believe, though, that if it has to be mentioned in a Q&A instead of showing up in the actual story that it isn't THAT important. (IE: Going back to my previous post about these elements being 'out of focus')

 

What makes Mr. Koji Fox's post problematic though is that his words on race conflicts what we see in game. It's really hard to believe that the various races are 'just tolerating each other' when multiple characters of varying races form friendships with each other.

 

All this time the lalafells in the pugilist guild were just 'tolerating' their sensei, Hamon Holyfist. Biggs and Wedge are just 'tolerating' each other despite being mostly inseparable. Hildibrand and his assistant are just 'tolerating' each other throughout their wacky hijinks. 

 

I thought it was universally agreed upon that "Show, don't tell" was a sign of good story-telling and writing? It certainly should be at least noteworthy in situations like this where what Mr. Koji Fox says in game seems to clash with what we actually see.

 

I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

 

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

 

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

[Kage]

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te,

Average lalafell are welcoming and share prosperous relations with the average Miqo'te and other average races. *nod*

[LiadansWhisper]

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te,

Average lalafell are welcoming and share prosperous relations with the average Miqo'te and other average races. *nod*

 

Okay Kage.

[Kage]

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te,

Average lalafell are welcoming and share prosperous relations with the average Miqo'te and other average races. *nod*

 

Okay Kage.

I'm only conveying exactly what is shared in the racial lore

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/sp/world/races/lalafell/

Since this topic is talking about average relations, people seem to be under the idea that the average Lalafell is part of the racist faction, which if they are they are not the norm.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

I'm only conveying exactly what is shared in the racial lore

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/sp/world/races/lalafell/

Since this topic is talking about average relations,  people seem to be under the idea that the average Lalafell is part of the racist faction, which if they are they are not the norm.

 

Okay, Kage.  I really don't want to argue with you right now, tbh.  I'm tired, and I would like to go to sleep.

 

However, while I think that Lalafell have one of the strongest cases for no intermarriage (due to literal physical constraints - things do not fit properly!), what Mr. Fox was talking about seems to be an almost unconscious/subconscious level of racism that flares to the surface now and again. I would also like to point out that people can be very, very nice people, and be very compassionate, and be very understanding, and even very friendly, and still be racists in some manner. I live in the South and I know this for a fact.

 

But sure.  It doesn't exist.  Developer is obviously high on meth.

[Flickering Ember]

I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

 

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

 

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

 

Well, it was just a few examples. I suppose I could scrounge up some more if you really want me to and if I'm not lazy about it.

Still though...

A lot of the quest NPCs can often be ordinary citizens or the vastly intermixed cities and towns. If the majority of the people I interact with don't offer reasonable indications to me as a reader that they are just "tolerating" each other then how am I going to know? By reading one of many SE posts on their forums, I guess. 

 

Me mentioning Hildibrand was a double meaning since his inclusion along with other things   really calls into question the grimdark reality I think(?) (honestly not sure at this point; too many posts to keep track of) is trying to be sold in this thread. Which yeah, bad stuff happens in Eorzea. It has to so we adventurers can come in and fix it. But the point of FFXIV's story isn't about how terrible the nature of humanity is; it's about grand adventures and the conquering of evil. 

 

Anyway.

 

"Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

 

 

Hm. I wouldn't say 'liar' or 'delusional'. I would just say 'incapable of writing a believable story/world that makes sense'.

[LiadansWhisper]

I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

 

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

 

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

 

Well, it was just a few examples. I suppose I could scrounge up some more if you really want me to and if I'm not lazy about it.

Still though...

A lot of the quest NPCs can often be ordinary citizens or the vastly intermixed cities and towns. If the majority of the people I interact with don't offer reasonable indications to me as a reader that they are just "tolerating" each other then how am I going to know? By reading one of many SE posts on their forums, I guess. 

 

Me mentioning Hildibrand was a double meaning since his inclusion along with other things   really calls into question the grimdark reality I think is trying to be sold in this thread. Which yeah, bad stuff happens in Eorzea. It has to so we adventurers can come in and fix it. But the point of FFXIV's story isn't about how terrible the nature of humanity is; it's about grand adventures and the conquering of evil.

 

You know the story can be both, right?  You can have all of this going on at the same time, with glorious questing, as well as a seedy underbelly, all in the same setting?  Forgotten Realms, anyone?

 

Anyway.

 

"Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

 

 

Hm. I wouldn't say 'liar' or 'delusional'. I would just say 'incapable of writing a believable story/world that makes sense'.

 

Oookay.  So he's simply incompetent.  Gotcha.

[Blue]

I think the boiling point of "intolerance" between races comes to wedding and offsprings, rather than to anything before that. I mean, look at prostitutes. They're mostly Miqo'te females, and yet Miqo'te males are rare, so who is giving those whores money? I think races do find each other attractive, but that Eorzea's society considers official engagement and marriage (and consequentially, birthgiving of hybrids) is just a huge no no that only a small percentage of rebellious couples will dare going through with, mostly at the cost of isolation, seclusion, or exile.

 

The option to create hybrids is already sorta there in small details of the Character Creator: how both Miqo'te clans have access to the fluffy tail (characteristic of Keepers, by lore) and leonine tail (characteristic of Seekers, by lore), or odd eyes, too. I play a Keeper that is often mistaken/bullied to be a hybrid because he has odd eyes, and so people think there is Seeker blood in his heritage.

 

Also in regards to the "show, don't tell" and Koji Fox's statement.... I'm a bit on both sides.

 

On a side, I do agree that there is xenophobia and discrimination in Eorzea (I wouldn't say just racism, that's a bit of an understatement, racism is just a small part of discrimination and prejudice), but I don't agree to it because a dev said it. I agree to it because the game says it.

 

At the same time, I don't quite agree that a dev's word should be taken as a golden rule even if the game does not show what they say. Devs are human, and their ideas and opinions change, and can be wrong at times. The game will not change its statements instead, and is more reliable than a human in keeping the same opinion.

 

So, if the developer says Nuhns are rarely leaders, but the only NPC Seeker tribe in game has a Nuhn leader? I trust the game.

 

So if the developer says Eorzea is mostly illiterate, but I spend half the game giving letters and messages to people left and right? I trust the game.

 

But on this particular topic, both the game and the dev are saying the same thing, so, I have no problems living considering Eorzea's setting to have its issues.

 

[Kellach Woods]

I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

 

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

 

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

 

Hildibrand actually shows proof of how dark the setting can get because every single thing in that questline is a direct result of how Ul'dah treated Sil'dih. Yes, it's shown in a very silly manner, and gets resolved rather peacefully considering what was about to happen - Still, you want proof of darkness? You got it.

 

My problem with that is essentially that even in NPC blurbs you barely see it. Even a throwaway line would be good, but they specifically go out of their way to not mention it. Other than for Duskwights in Grid, there's barely anything.

 

Ishgard is actually better in that regard in that it does showcase what the setting allegedly is (two young kids struggling to read a simple memo in the Jeweled Crozier showing that literacy isn't exactly a strong point, etc.) but in so far as racism is considered it's still not that very well shown.

 

I'm saying, he might have said it in a Q&A or something, but it's certainly not something that came up during discussions on what they should have NPCs say, or storylines, etc. Else it'd be there more often, y'know.

 

It'd certainly explain why Ishgard is actually showing how hard life is for the average Eorzean and the other cities aren't - it was developed after them.

 

To me, this whole "Eorzea's racist as fuck you guys" screams of "Dumbledore is gay". Something that was said by the author/someone prominent enough to make that call after the fact, that has absolutely no impact on the story in any significant way, that only serves to make a few people thumb their noses at others for not being on the hunt for every single possibly significant piece of lore ever.

 

And the most important part... Koji Fox said that? Source it. "Go look in the lore Q&As" isn't good enough.

[Kage]

 

 

I'm only conveying exactly what is shared in the racial lore

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/sp/world/races/lalafell/

Since this topic is talking about average relations,  people seem to be under the idea that the average Lalafell is part of the racist faction, which if they are they are not the norm.

But sure.  It doesn't exist.  Developer is obviously high on meth.

 

In my view, there are notable racist tensions but it's not a tension where you would have many lynchings (barring the early 30?-50yrs ago Auri movement). Why was Sigurd left? What stopped? Is he the only? Does that mean it's less crucial? After that you have the Keeper/Duskwight issue in Gridania, notable for going against the pact in Twelveswood. You have Ala Mhigo who invaded Twelveswood... Ala Mhigans and those in the Twelveswood face discrimination on a different level because of being seen as a free-loader/bringing the forest's vengeance upon us. Au Ra seem to have the same free-loading thoughts as the Ala Mhigans? With extra dravanian-flavor in Ishgard.

 

And yet, the Mongrel is listened to by Elezen and Hyur in Ishgard. The mongrel still had clout. She still had voice. I have never really seen major "well you have some type of business /  trade / gil to offer me. I don't want no Lalafell in my establishment! You Lalafell go to ____ for service!"

 

This is a game that literally has refugee camps for certain types of people. There are story NPCs (aka Raubahn) who are famous for overcoming the racial issues in their cities. I think Sounsy posted a tidbit from 1.0 on how it was a big deal that the Gladiator's guild decided to allow highlanders to compete.

 

Miqo'te in Gridania are often seen as a bunch of forest cat poachers, hyur in Ishgard are treated as lowborn, and all over you see racism against the beast tribes.

 

Racial tensions are EXPLICITY built into the lore, and much of it is quite nasty. I'm not saying anyone has to play an unrepentant racist, but to act like they don't exist is rather silly. If you want to play an open minded character that doesn't worry about race, then that's fine, more power to you. Just be aware your character is an exception (likely a positive one) and not the norm.

Pray tell me where I denied that there is racism [in the game]. Also tell me what differences there are between what I have said and what you have said, and explore what these differences actually imply.

[Dravus]

I stand firmly behind the idea that if a developer states that something is a particular way then their word is as the law. It's not as if the game is lacking in examples of racism or distrust between the playable races, let alone those that aren't playable such as the Garleans.

 

It's a major plot point driving many of the game's major events forward. Ishgard is the most prominent example, I suppose, though there's also the fact that the Garleans seek to wipe out the Beast Tribes even though some of them are perfectly capable of being reasonable and won't resort to summoning a Primal no matte rhow dire things get.

 

I think people are getting confused because they're taking too much of the MSQ's at face value - when it's obvious that they're custom tailored to the perspective of the Warrior of Light who is the exception in almost every way rather than an example of the norm.

 

Yet most people aren't role-playing the Warrior of the Light, most are portraying the average Eorzean and that comes with the responsibility of acknowledging that if they play their character as being very open minded then their character is by no means an example of the norm.

 

...and that isn't a bad thing. My own character is far from racist, but that doesn't mean he isn't liable to be a victim of discrimination should certain details of his heritage and lifestyle emerge. 

 

I must admit that I'm not really sure what some people are even trying to put forward at this point. On one hand they're agreeing that racism exists - and there's countless examples being brought forward throughout the thread to prove that it does - but then on the other they're trying to paint it as being much lesser than it actually is purely because it doesn't show up in quests every few minutes.

 

What's next? People denying that Doma has been razed because it hasn't been shown in-game explicitly?

 

Again, the 'grittiness' of the setting is what has drawn a lot of us to FFXIV. If people want to avoid some of the more controversial themes? Go ahead! Just please don't ignore what the developers state or make it seem like those of us who adhere strictly to the lore are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

 

Surely that isn't unreasonable and it's the best compromise?

[Flickering Ember]

I stand firmly behind the idea that if a developer states that something is a particular way then their word is as the law. 

 

Again, the 'grittiness' of the setting is what has drawn a lot of us to FFXIV. If people want to avoid some of the more controversial themes? Go ahead! Just please don't ignore what the developers state or make it seem like those of us who adhere strictly to the lore are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

 

Surely that isn't unreasonable and it's the best compromise?

 

I'll drop my 'show,don't tell" shpiel here. So if we all agree a developer's word is law...how is that enforced? I can ignore racism and illiteracy to an extent and no one will ever be able to know. I could deny racism being a thing and any RPed out examples being outliers and no one will ever know. It doesn't affect anyone because they are based on character reactions.

 

No one can force my character to be racist. They can't even force my character to say "Oh no! A married hyur and elezen! I support you but how ever have you made it this far in today's society?"

 

No one can force my character to be surprised if she finds out they can read.

 

I can ignore these things without causing problems or upsetting anyone. In contrast to Doma which is relevant to the story and is a point of history.

 

It isn't because I want to be a jerk, I just have a different interpretation of the story. It is a lot like interpreting a movie or a song differently. I don't see Eorzea as a dark, gritty place. Real life is worse than anything that happens in Eorzea. 

 

My subjective views on the story of Eorzea don't hurt anyone nor do they break lore.

(Unless not playing a racist is breaking lore)

 

What I mean is. I have given my answer why I don't rp as a racist in this game. I have speculated why others don't. The answer is there already. Perhaps this thread will inspire more people to roll those types of characters, perhaps it won't.

[Dravus]

I think this is a matter of a misunderstanding because nobody is trying to force anybody to adhere to the developer's view of the setting or the way in which the setting has been established. If people wish to go off and do their own thing then that's fine - but it's their burden and they should at least admit that they're the ones taking liberties with the lore instead of implying that those of us who adhere to the setting as it's intended to be seen are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

 

On a side note, I may be mistaken but you've yet to complete the MSQ's for Heavensward, correct? I won't spoil anything specific but the tone and general atmosphere of the expansion is even darker than the 2.0 stuff. That, to me, suggests that it's what the developers intend - and their statements and various in-game sources support it.

 

I, for one, welcome the 'gritty' nature of the setting. It's what drew me into FFXIV in the first place - since I prefer my MMO's to be 'gritty' and involve intrigue, heroic struggles, discrimination and all the other trimmings. I've crafted my characters story around that sort of thing (which makes his role as a diplomat that much more interesting) and I'm seemingly the direct target audience given how much I've enjoyed Heavensward and the themes explored throughout the expansion.

 

That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to lighthearted stuff - and yes, there's plenty of that to be found in-game. It doesn't suddenly mean that there isn't horrific stuff going on all throughout Eorzea, though - especially when one examines the flavour text for quests, levequests, FATE's and so on; thus finding out just how bleak a place it can be.

 

So in short? No - nobody can 'enforce' other people to adhere to the developer's vision. Yet as a rough example: if George R.R Martin offers elaboration as to a particular character's motivation in Game of Thrones (and he's the guy who wrote it) then what he says trumps any fan interpretation to the contrary.

 

It's the same for FFXIV. If people want to interpret the setting differently to the creators then they're free to do so - but ultimately what the developers say is what's most important and it most definitely is supported by various in-game events and dialogue as shown through the many examples given throughout this very thread.

 

Though it does make for an interesting debate!

[FreelanceWizard]

Personally, I think one of the issues is that XIV, like several other Final Fantasy games, juxtaposes great beauty and magic with some very dark themes. Yes, there's the beautiful vistas of the Churning Mists and Mor Dhona, but there's also scheming villains and egregious abuses of people. As is often the case in FF, the world would be an amazing, beautiful place if not for the wickedness of Man. There's a lot of evil, but there's also a lot of good.

 

The tension between the brightest light and the deepest darkness in XIV is one of the characteristics I find most interesting about the setting, but the downside is that it's not always easy to reconcile all the sources of information we have. On one hand, we have races living together and Fernehalwes saying that Eorzeans are a fairly accepting bunch (a comment in the "CG Midlander" thread from long ago), and on the other hand we have examples of racism and nationalism in game and Fernehalwes also saying that there's a lot of racial tension. It's up to us, as RPers, to figure out how to put both of those together into an internally consistent world view. There's not one right or wrong way to do this, IMO.

[Dravus]

Personally, I think one of the issues is that XIV, like several other Final Fantasy games, juxtaposes great beauty and magic with some very dark themes. Yes, there's the beautiful vistas of the Churning Mists and Mor Dhona, but there's also scheming villains and egregious abuses of people. As is often the case in FF, the world would be an amazing, beautiful place if not for the wickedness of Man. There's a lot of evil, but there's also a lot of good.

 

The tension between the brightest light and the deepest darkness in XIV is one of the characteristics I find most interesting about the setting, but the downside is that it's not always easy to reconcile all the sources of information we have. On one hand, we have races living together and Fernehalwes saying that Eorzeans are a fairly accepting bunch (a comment in the "CG Midlander" thread from long ago), and on the other hand we have examples of racism and nationalism in game and Fernehalwes also saying that there's a lot of racial tension. It's up to us, as RPers, to figure out how to put both of those together into an internally consistent world view. There's not one right or wrong way to do this, IMO.

 

An excellent point - and that's something that made FFIX into one of my favourite titles in the franchise. The game has no shortage of lighthearted moments and the game world is very beautiful - and yet the bulk of the story involves some pretty horrific themes such as genocide and the complete annihilation of entire cities.

 

There's plenty of room in FFXIV for both tolerance and discrimination. Too much of one thing, however, leads to stagnation. My character concept would suddenly become irrelevant if there was no need for diplomacy between the playable races/nations.

[Flickering Ember]

I think this is a matter of a misunderstanding because nobody is trying to force anybody to adhere to the developer's view of the setting or the way in which the setting has been established. If people wish to go off and do their own thing then that's fine - but it's their burden and they should at least admit that they're the ones taking liberties with the lore instead of implying that those of us who adhere to the setting as it's intended to be seen are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

 

On a side note, I may be mistaken but you've yet to complete the MSQ's for Heavensward, correct? I won't spoil anything specific but the tone and general atmosphere of the expansion is even darker than the 2.0 stuff. That, to me, suggests that it's what the developers intend - and their statements and various in-game sources support it.

 

I, for one, welcome the 'gritty' nature of the setting. It's what drew me into FFXIV in the first place - since I prefer my MMO's to be 'gritty' and involve intrigue, heroic struggles, discrimination and all the other trimmings. I've crafted my characters story around that sort of thing (which makes his role as a diplomat that much more interesting) and I'm seemingly the direct target audience given how much I've enjoyed Heavensward and the themes explored throughout the expansion.

 

That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to lighthearted stuff - and yes, there's plenty of that to be found in-game. It doesn't suddenly mean that there isn't horrific stuff going on all throughout Eorzea, though - especially when one examines the flavour text for quests, levequests, FATE's and so on; thus finding out just how bleak a place it can be.

 

So in short? No - nobody can 'enforce' other people to adhere to the developer's vision. Yet as a rough example: if George R.R Martin offers elaboration as to a particular character's motivation in Game of Thrones (and he's the guy who wrote it) then what he says trumps any fan interpretation to the contrary.

 

It's the same for FFXIV. If people want to interpret the setting differently to the creators then they're free to do so - but ultimately what the developers say is what's most important and it most definitely is supported by various in-game events and dialogue as shown through the many examples given throughout this very thread.

 

Though it does make for an interesting debate!

 

 

You can say 'you' here, Graeham. It is alright. I won't be shy in saying that  I am one of the folks you are referring to who interprets the lore/story differently. I suppose I don't see my interpretation to be false because I don't hold developer  quotes in as high regard. Well, I do tend to believe in lore Q & A's ....just not if they seem to contradict other sources.

 

Unless it is debating over whether or not Hydaelyn also exists in the DBZ universe or some other ridiculous claim, most of the story and lore can be debated on because it is gray. What makes it gray in here is that you hold the developers' words in a higher regard, whereas what happens in game takes precedence for conflicting lore, for me.

 

I really do wish you and any others' luck to find the RP conflict and themes they are clamoring for. It is always a pleasant surprise to find those rare RP incidents that make you go "This is why I made my character!" I do actually enjoy gritty, dark stories more, I just don't see FFXIV as that. I am happy to participate in the RPs you're looking for as a boring neutral good type character, I just don't initiate them and focus on different elements. 

 

I'm sure most of us have different story themes we like to focus on anyway. It can be frustrating when everyone is neutral good but perhaps there is a work around for that? If the opposite player plays a NPC there could be potential there.

[Darien Cadell]

I think people are getting confused because they're taking too much of the MSQ's at face value - when it's obvious that they're custom tailored to the perspective of the Warrior of Light who is the exception in almost every way rather than an example of the norm.

 

Yet most people aren't role-playing the Warrior of the Light, most are portraying the average Eorzean and that comes with the responsibility of acknowledging that if they play their character as being very open minded then their character is by no means an example of the norm.

 

I agree that what most people seem to be forgetting is that "our" experiences throughout the storyline are not and are not supposed to be the default experiences for the average Eorzean. That's where overreaching statements come in. That's also where we have to look at the content of the quests we do and think about what it might be like from the other side. Right from the start, we're dealing with corpses and death, kidnappings, starvation, prejudice, violence etc. It is all right there in front of us, and constantly. It just doesn't affect "our" character/the protagonist except as an aside/something to help with.

 

Hildibrand is comic relief, and he plays his part well, but contrasted against the majority of the MSQ, the story is dark dark dark.

 

But even though most people don't seem to RP the Warrior of Light, I don't think most people RP average Eorzeans either (some do). In my experience, most people tend to RP average adventurers, which are a subset all of their own. Adventurers' demographics are different (the supposedly rarest races seem to enjoy the lifestyle the most, and that's okay). Adventurers' experiences are different. Adventurers' attitudes will be different. I would argue that adventurers are not average Eorzeans, they aren't meant to be, and they don't have to be.

 

People who make their livings travelling around the world, encountering surprising things, hunting giant monsters, are all going to have more open minds than the person who actually has worked the same farm all their life or tended the same bar all their life.

 

For those of us playing adventurers (which isn't all, but seems to be the trend), it makes sense to have fairly "liberal" perspectives. Those of us playing characters (adventurers or otherwise) whose backgrounds include reasons to be less open-minded on certain subjects should certainly be capable of indulging in-character prejudices (with open OOC communication). I don't think anyone should expect or avoid certain attitudes with any adventurer they play. Go with what makes sense for your character's past and present.

 

We're a diverse group of people, in character and out, and we're far from average.

[Proud Dahlia]

For those of us playing adventurers (which isn't all, but seems to be the trend), it makes sense to have fairly "liberal" perspectives. Those of us playing characters (adventurers or otherwise) whose backgrounds include reasons to be less open-minded on certain subjects should certainly be capable of indulging in-character prejudices (with open OOC communication). I don't think anyone should expect or avoid certain attitudes with any adventurer they play. Go with what makes sense for your character's past and present.

 

We're a diverse group of people, in character and out, and we're far from average.

 

Pretty much this. Very few people seem to be RPing commoners, and it's fine for people to have unusual beliefs from the norm. The average Eorzean's belief is certainly a part of the setting and will most likely play a role in a character's backstory and life, but it isn't necessarily reflected in a PC's belief.

 

Most role-players seem to play characters who fall into the following categories: adventurers of some sort, more specialized mercenaries, tradespeople and merchants, scholars, and criminals/outcasts. All of these demographics are likely to have open-minded or unique outlooks upon the world as a whole. Of course, by the same token, they don't HAVE to have progressive outlooks on things. Some may even have prejudices that are completely estranged from Eorzean society. Your character may not be in any of these categories, in which case, it's possible their beliefs will fall in line with the traditional. Just as likely, though, they've have unique life experiences which shaped their lives different. Very few people I know of play a commoner who is common in EVERY regard. Of course, this is all the prerogative of a character's particular player, and that's really the bottom line.

 

Unless you're in the business of telling people what they should and should not be playing, I'm not sure why character's tending towards the open-minded is a bad thing. Yes, Eorzea can be a dark and spiteful place with plenty of gritty themes. They can be fun to work with and incorporate into your character. It's wrong to assume, though, that because people don't wish to play a more hateful character that they don't acknowledge these themes are present in the setting. Some prefer to be a light in the darkness. Many even enjoy the conflict of their character's bright idealism clashing with a shady reality.  It's true that some people wish to just surround themselves with lighthearted and pleasant RP, and that's their right. It doesn't even necessarily clash with the setting. Even in real life, people can live in a pleasant bubble of a community and remain oblivious to the plight and strife of the world at large.

 

I suppose my final thoughts on the matter, and advice to those who wish there was more 'presence' of the darker side of the setting in RP would be to make it happen. Be the bad guy, stir up trouble, light the fire. Many of us who play so-called idealists would welcome opposition that comes in the form rigid traditionalism. Frankly, I would love to see Nadine's forward-thinking outlook be challenged by more conventional Ishgardians.

 

I know the "if you want something to happen, do it yourself" mantra is a bit trite in roleplay communities, but it's so for a reason, as it is often the best solution to a perceived problem.