Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting

[Sig]

Forgive the rant, friends, but it's been a terrible day at work thus far.  Allow me to crack my knuckles and vent.  This is going to be a very nerdy and subjective post.  Brace yourselves. Something has been bugging as of late in the wonderful world of Eorzean RP.

 

/Rant

 

Most Eorzean knife fighting is.... painful to watch.  

 

Yeah, I said it.  I mean no offense and will elaborate.  You are probably are already very familiar with most types of Eorzean knife fighters, especially rogues and ninjas and the like. Many other types of characters also carry knives as side-arms  (Sig, for example, has more than he knows what to do with).  It's safe to assume there is an obscene amount of knife fighters roaming the streets at all times.   And most follow a similar pattern. 

 

Most Eorzean knife fighters are skilled dancers.  They move like cats and emphasize graceful, sweeping strikes, akin to swinging a longsword or staff.  They frequently weave jumps, twists, and other amazing acrobatic feats into the melee.  We'll call this style "dancing with a knife." 

 

There is nothing wrong about dancing with a knife.  It can be very entertaining to watch.  It can also be effective, as evidenced by Eskrima and similar disciplines. But the flashy show and excessive flourish drown out the true beauty inherent in knife fighting, making it painfully scarce.

 

Simplicity is the most beautiful and effective aspect of knife fighting.  Basic, rote movements reduced to repeatable patterns.  A hand grasps the opponent's outer shoulder, gains a purchase on clothing, and proceeds to pump the blade into the mark like a piston.  This is the essence of knife fighting.  There are a few variations but not many. Movements are fast, simple, and direct. Traditional knife fighting is something that almost any character could master in a day, and is so brutally effective that very few could stop a well-timed attack. But alas, we never see such displays.  They don't make for a good show, afterall.   

 

...But, at least one character in this zany world, finds few shows more entertaining than a proper, simple knife fight.  Give it a shot sometime in-character, sometime.  It's fun and indisputably effective. 

 

/Rant.

[Sin]

Are you a tonberry in real life?

[111]

Are you a tonberry in real life?

 

Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...

[Melkire]

The disconnect with real knife-fighting ultimately comes down to artistic liberties. That sounds like a major cop-out because it is a major cop-out.

 

A key factor in this is also that mortal combat (snrrrrrk) in fiction tends to favor drama. You can't have drama sufficient to entertain most audiences in a five-to-ten second fight, which is what most conflicts come down to. Someone comes at you with a knife? If they get a good thrust in, you're probably dead. If you get a good thrust in, they're probably dead. If both combatants come to find themselves disarmed, the fight devolves into a brawl... but at that point, the fight is no longer about knife-fighting.

 

Fiction takes extreme liberties. Video games just as much so, if not more.

[Dogberry]

Final Fantasy 14.

[Altitis Acquired]

If all knife fights aren't just taking 3 steps towards the target, with pauses in between mind you, and then one single deadly stab, then it is just not worth doing!

[Telluride]

It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.

 

Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!

 

So, basically, what Melkire said. Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement. MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.

[Caspar]

It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.

 

Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!

 

So, basically, what Melkire said.  Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement.  MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.

Even the supposedly realistic MMA hugfest (ugh.) ill advised on a concrete surface. What matters in fiction is more selling the scene than realism. When most people demand the latter, they really just don't want their subjective suspension of disbelief abused. It's like how it's hard to find real "hard sci-fi.": most people just aren't anal enough about the details to care.

[Aaron]

When I fight rp as a Rogue I tend to make Aaron go for short un flashy moves. Because you try to end a fight as fast as possible, not drag it out for enjoyment in a life or death situation. If he had to chose between that swift shoulder grab pull towards the neck vs some graceful dance akin to Shadow Fang (NIN skill) he's doing the former. Saves time and effort. 

 

Yeah it's a fantasy game but fantasy or not a lot of times people don't go slashing knives at each other just to waste energy jumping around like Hermes and all that. They generally aim to wound or kill.

 

But what do I know I'm swinging a bigass DRK sword around now.

[Kellach Woods]

Are you a tonberry in real life?

 

Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...

 

But MAN do they hold a grudge...

 

* * *

 

Pro wrestling is scripted up the ass and yet it is still enjoyable to watch precisely because it's so unrealistic.

 

That's how I view most fantasy stuff.

[Sylentmana]

See, this is why I prefer to play a mage. Any demands of realistic combat is kind of forced out by the presence of magic. If the other person still insists on realistic combat, manawall would make all melee attacks useless at least long enough to cast a spell.

 

Congratulations, your demand for realism now means you are incinerated, impaled by ice, or have suffered death by electrocution. Realism in a game can only carry you so far.

[Caspar]

Are you a tonberry in real life?

 

Tonberrys are certainly efficient with their knife fighting...

 

But MAN do they hold a grudge...

 

* * *

 

Pro wrestling is scripted up the ass and yet it is still enjoyable to watch precisely because it's so unrealistic.

 

That's how I view most fantasy stuff.

Does remember that Japanese proresu circuit, the one with the tiny little girl who choke slams people?

That is Lalafell pugilism.

[Aaron]

See, this is why I prefer to play a mage. Any demands of realistic combat is kind of forced out by the presence of magic. If the other person still insists on realistic combat, manawall would make all melee attacks useless at least long enough to cast a spell.

 

Congratulations, your demand for realism now means you are incinerated, impaled by ice, or have suffered death by electrocution. Realism in a game can only carry you so far.

I think his point was more along the lines people in combat rp aim on a unconscious lebel to make the fight flashy than efficient. Not the level of realism.

[Shoshopu]

I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

 

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

[Caspar]

I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

 

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

I think so too. A lot of the time when I rp, my posts can get really long and descriptive, going for a more impressionistic feel. This usually elicits a "Debeezee!" response from happy onlookers. But actually, when you get down to it and pay attention solely to what's being described, like 99% of it is just "I hit them. Really hard."

[Telluride]

I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

 

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

 

Here's one of my favorite examples of an exciting, yet properly deadly knife fight, even with the little kinetic blast at the end...

 

[video=youtube]

[kharnlol]

Orenji got stabbed in the shoulder by Anrai Sinclair's stiletto in a Grindstone and it was literally left at that. Albiet I won that fight, the dagger was left in his body and there wasn't anything flashy about the shanking.

[Knight Kat]

What is "realistic" in a world where people of many professions can use magic, people often wear armor made of metals stronger than steel and things like aether and materia come into play?

 

People develop combat styles based on the times and context. Modern knife-fighting could have an application in Eorzea, but there are many scenarios where it wouldn't cut it (pun not intended).

 

What if the person you are trying to use the knife on has a spear? Good luck trying to shoulder-grab and close in to stab the spear-user. What if you tried that move on an armored Paladin? Knives by nature are side-arms in warfare. Even in the era where guns didn't exist, bigger, longer weapons were a soldier's first go-to. For Rogues and Ninja who use knives and short-blades as primary weapons, I would think the simple moves won't be enough for every foe.

[Sig]

It's not just Eorzea, not just "Fantasy", but ALL fictional/cinematic combat.

 

Anytime you see a close fight between someone using a penetrating weapon (sword, knife, pistol), that person will get very few hits in, if any, compared to the person using blunt weapns (sticks, staves, clubs, fists) if a good, dramatic fight is supposed to be going on. Put a good knife in the hand of the latter person - the one getting the hits in - and fight's done. Boo! Hiss! Boring Murder!

 

So, basically, what Melkire said.  Real combat isn't really dramatic. Boxing can be only because it is constrained by very specific rules of engagement.  MMA fighting often devolves into rolling on the floor and, as Penny Arcade once put it, sweaty, grunting groin-punching. Painful... effective... but kind of, well, not what most people expect a fight to be - at least, most people who don't fight.

 

Much of fanatasy and cinematic combat does revolve around flashy displays.  Not all of it does, however.  A Song of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones comes immediately to mind.  There is some fine knife fighting to be found in those. Real combat is boring in real life. But in RP? The imagination and sky is the limit.

 

I dunno, to me there's something dramatic and scary about just how brutal (and brutally short) the "proper knife fight" scenario is. If you wrote it right, it could still be a deadly dramatic grapple to keep your opponent from being able to grab at you well enough to stab, without all the dramatic dancy stuff.

 

There's a place for both, it just depends on what sort of feel you're going for!

 

This echos my sentiments extremely well.  A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension.  Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect.  I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes.  

 

What is "realistic" in a world where people of many professions can use magic, people often wear armor made of metals stronger than steel and things like aether and materia come into play?

 

People develop combat styles based on the times and context. Modern knife-fighting could have an application in Eorzea, but there are many scenarios where it wouldn't cut it (pun not intended).

 

What if the person you are trying to use the knife on has a spear? Good luck trying to shoulder-grab and close in to stab the spear-user. What if you tried that move on an armored Paladin? Knives by nature are side-arms in warfare. Even in the era where guns didn't exist, bigger, longer weapons were a soldier's first go-to. For Rogues and Ninja who use knives and short-blades as primary weapons, I would think the simple moves won't be enough for every foe.

 

No one disputes that Eorzea is a surreal place filled with all sorts of magic and mystical objects.  Those objects can also be used in direct, brutally efficient ways.  

 

And absolutely, it is most unwise to bring a knife to gun fight, or any fight that features larger arms.  Armor is frustrating but most suits have convenient little slits that conceal squishy parts.  Ultimately, a good knife is an amazing side-arm.  It is sad that it is not used in more colorful ways.  But this of course is entirely subjective.  Some folks love flashy pomp.

[Caspar]

But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting. 

I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is. 

Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.

I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

 

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.

On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

[Xzenivar]

Snipped

 

All of this. ^^^

 

Some of the Nin animations are in fact "I jam this blade into you, then I jam this blade into you. Deal."

 

Also, I don't see many mundane/real world knife fighting moves being very effective on a great majority of the creatures in Eorzea.

[Sig]

But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting. 

I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is. 

Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.

I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

 

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.

On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

 

Hence the subjective disclaimers slathered on the OP.  This whole rant is entirely subjective.  BUT AMAZING.  Proportionality is an important part of the point I was trying to make.  We see a very narrow, fantastic conception of Eorzea through the MSQ.  It certainly exists and there is nothing wrong with it.  But I'll be bold and make the guess that the vast majority of Eorzean soliders and citizens, aren't casting advanced spells, performing back flips in combat, or mowing down folks by the dozens. 

 

You can't really blame people who want to play powerful, fanciful characters that are consistent with the vast majority of the MSQ quest lore we digest.  The problem is that such characters exist among PC's in proportions that are not found in NPCs.  For every one badass back-flipping ninja, there should be some arbitrary number of "gritty martials" to lend to a sense of proportion (10, perhaps)?  Yet we see no such proportions.  Some love this.  Others yawn at it, including me. 

 

And I don't really see a dichotomy or inherent weakness in a "gritty martial."  The Ninja is flipping around too much?  That's fine - hold an axe overhead and let him skewer himself on the blade. A caster chain-casting fire magic?  Sure.  Hide behind a large rock, peak out, and throw a dagger at her squishy face.  Heavily armored plate knight got you down?  Drop a rock on his head.  The "gritty martial" high-powered possibilities are practically endless!  And highly effective. 

 

...Annnd... subjectively amazing, <3!

[Caspar]

But I thought the argument was that techniques which seem flashy to us are in fact brutally efficient in a fantastical setting. 

I think you're conflating your own suspension of disbelief with the aesthetics of the game, and not neccressarily how rp is usually carried out. In addition, you say that the flashy way is fine but call it painful to look at. I'm not sure what your point is. 

Making Martials low power and gritty in a SoIaF way is arbitrary in a heavy magic setting, and a strangely commonly trod path of discussion here. I see it as an old habit borne of traditions in western fantasy, that came out of certain unbalanced pen and paper systems. It is the role of the martial to be gritty but weak, the role of the caster to do everything with their bag of tricks. Never mind the fact that martial traditions would change in such a setting to remain relevant.

I've got a chip on my shoulder from those days as you can probably tell, but here in game there's a lot less room for interpretation, as we clearly see both mundane and superhuman Martials.

 

If you just prefer this aesthetic and wanted to declare such, that's great; as youve seen, you've got a lot of company. Here's how I see it though. Martials are pretty damn magical in this setting. It's canon. If you want to be mundane, cool. Don't be too surprised though if some back flipping ninja shows you up though because there's plenty of examples of that in Eorzea too.

On another note, I don't like the suggestion that fanciful coreography stifles character interaction and dramatic tension. An entire genre of film was built off unrealistic, highly choreographed gunfights and flocks of doves.

 

Hence the subjective disclaimers slathered on the OP.  This whole rant is entirely subjective.  BUT AMAZING.  Proportionality is an important part of the point I was trying to make.  We see a very narrow, fantastic conception of Eorzea through the MSQ.  It certainly exists and there is nothing wrong with it.  But I'll be bold and make the guess that the vast majority of Eorzean soliders and citizens, aren't casting advanced spells, performing back flips in combat, or mowing down folks by the dozens. 

 

You can't really blame people who want to play powerful, fanciful characters that are consistent with the vast majority of the MSQ quest lore we digest.  The problem is that such characters exist among PC's in proportions that are not found in NPCs.  For every one badass back-flipping ninja, there should be some arbitrary number of "gritty martials" to lend to a sense of proportion (10, perhaps)?  Yet we see no such proportions.  Some love this.  Others yawn at it, including me. 

 

And I don't really see a dichotomy or inherent weakness in a "gritty martial."  The Ninja is flipping around too much?  That's fine - hold an axe overhead and let him skewer himself on the blade. A caster chain-casting fire magic?  Sure.  Hide behind a large rock, peak out, and throw a dagger at her squishy face.  Heavily armored plate knight got you down?  Drop a rock on his head.  The "gritty martial" high-powered possibilities are practically endless!  And highly effective. 

 

...Annnd... subjectively amazing, <3!

Honestly it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be seen as low powered, but win fights regularly and demonstrate mastery. This lets your charcter be the underdog and eschew aesthetics you dislike at the same time, while building them up as competent. You say it's subjective, but you want free leave to criticize the game's presented aesthetic and poopoo on others for holding to it; cool, I subjectively don't find that all that amazing, it's a really common theme on here. You say there are a lot of mundanes not seen; agreed, they're often mooks in comparison to a dragoon or a fist of rhalgr. And I agree that basic tactics can still function in a fantastic setting. Even in my case, my assertion has always been "there's no ultimate technique," and never use a tecnhnique that has no purpose when a simpler one does. I don't care about hard realism, though, even with what I know, and were I playing an unpowered character, I'd expect to have to fight dirty to stand even a ghost of a chance. I completely agree being the "badass normal" is cool, but for some reason, a lot of people forget why. They are innately weaker and must use guile or determination to triumph over those with abilities, which, assuming most of us are Job level adventurers, is quite a few people in the rp context, even if not in the larger population.

[Sig]

Honestly it sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to be seen as low powered, but win fights regularly and demonstrate mastery. This lets your charcter be the underdog and eschew aesthetics you dislike at the same time, while building them up as competent. You say it's subjective, but you want free leave to criticize the game's presented aesthetic; cool, I subjectively don't find that all that amazing, it's a really common theme on here. You say there are a lot of mundanes not seen; agreed, they're often mooks in comparison to a dragoon or a fist of rhalgr. And I agree that basic tactics can still function in a fantastic setting. Even in my case, my assertion has always been "there's no ultimate technique," and never use a tecnhnique that has no purpose when a simpler one does. I don't care about hard realism, though, even with what I know, and were I playing an unpowered character, I'd expect to have to fight dirty to stand even a ghost of a chance. I completely agree being the "badass normal" is cool, but for some reason, a lot of people forget why. They are innately weaker and must use guile or determination to triumph over those with abilities, which, assuming most of us are Job level adventurers, is quite a few people in the rp context, even if not in the larger population.

 

Give me that delicious cake.  I'll stuff it down my throat and bake another.  However, perhaps my point was not clear - a character is not powerful because they adhere to a certain style of combat, per se.  Ultimately, the RP'er will dictate the power of the character, and then with the luck of the dice gods (in most instances), hope that raw luck will translate into sensible combat performance.  Of course some RP'ers will ensure their characters kill them all or blow off their own foot - that's the magic of RP.

 

What does this boil down to?  Well, an experienced combatant bearing a knife with a crazy look on her face should be just as terrifying and challenging, although in different ways, than a dragoon exercising a thirty foot vertical while in full plate.  The confusion arises from assumptions about power and skill based entirely on a very aesthetic derived from the most fanciful of in-game lore. It's a pleasant aesthetic that is over represented.  

 

And I confess, this is all awfully subjective.  I suppose the point I can't seem to get across is that - plain, boring [aka: awesome] combat and aesthetics are a major part of the game, too!  Hell, I'd go so far as to say that most of Eorzea (in a holistic sense) bathes in this style. We PC's simply don't gravitate to the themes as strongly, for a number of reasons.

 

But it's a beautiful, lovely part of the game.  Try it sometime, if you haven't already (not just you, Caspar -- thanks, little buddy, it's been a while since I've traded forum posts like broadsides) Regardless, remember to stab them with the pointy end.  Love you all.

[Marisa]

This echos my sentiments extremely well.  A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension.  Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect.  I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes.  

 

 

This is also my entire opinion on the whole thing. Why does combat realism matter in a fantasy setting? Because it has more impact than laser-light rock concerts claiming to be battles. And even with the presence of magic, realism doesn't change. We can know exactly how a fireball spell would be used in the real world, because it doesn't really alter the fundamentals of combat. With a bit of research and a good amount of rational thought, you absolutely can make believable use of Holy.   

 

So if you're just out for a good ol' dick-waving contest, superhero fights are fine and dandy. But they don't make for a compelling story, so much as they end up being "who would win in a fight, the guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes or the guy who breathes mustard gas?"