Rant - The Problem With Eorzean Knife-Fighting

[Dravus]

As someone who has, in fact, actually been stabbed I suppose I can give some insight into the whole affair. There's a lot of merit to the idea that a 'realistic' assault would be over in a matter of moments, especially if somebody catches someone else by surprise.

 

Putting aside the fact that 'realism' in Eorzea operates differently to 'realism' in the real world, however, I'd strongly recommend not underestimating the instinct to survive. When I was attacked I immediately sort to defend myself. Although I was slashed at with a knife I managed to protect myself - first with my right arm and then by grabbing whatever was nearby to use effectively.

 

I threw stuff. Sought to put distance between myself and my attacker. Adrenaline was pumping beyond anything I'd ever experienced before and then I managed to escape. After it was over? It hurt like hell - but I survived and recovered.

 

I try to reflect that same sense of desperation in a fight since dragging it on and on just doesn't feel realistic to me. I also think it's possible to strike a balance between making a fight 'flashy' whilst still aiming to end it quickly and efficiently.

[Khadan]

I think I see the point of the OP. Or at least I think I can resonate with the general theme of the topic. It is semi-frustrating to be someone who loves conventional martial arts and incorporates that into RP for the purposes of not only being knowledgeable and realistic but also because it's just plain fun to have a gritty dust up where you don't spend five episodes powering up while internally monologue'ing about your tragic past (I love hyperbole)

 

That being said, it is a high fantasy with magic almost literally -everywhere- but I still believe a balance can be had with little effort on either side of the 'knives' as it were. I.e. you move faster, hit harder, take more punishment etc. You can still display the sheer brutality, economy of movement, and debilitating blows that occur in a normal knife fight will being aetherically charged the whole time.

 

Regardless a really good example of knife fighting to me is from the move "The Hunted", a really well done and underrated film (It also takes place in Portland Oregon *represent*) 

 

If you have no intention of watching the movie even though you should, have a movie clip of an example of how nasty and brutal knife fights can be:

 

pKjkQ_sPE0U

 

Otherwise just go see the whole movie, it really is good. One of the best quotes from the making of was something along the lines of "In a knife fight one of you is going to the morgue, the other is going to the hospital"

[Kalooeh]

I'll admit I tend to avoid the more showy things with Kal when it comes to knife-fighting. Because with her personality it's "Nah waste of energy and I'm too damn big for that shit. Fuck it just gonna stab 'em and get it over with", plus she's somewhat of a powerhouse and has the strength to be able to block attacks pretty well from most people, do damage while blocking and maybe even break a limb, and deal some brutal hits. She can take a fair amount of damage herself too even if she isn't in a "tanky" profession and prefers to fight at range

Her being "showy" would be something like this

 

Sam would probably be a bit more "showy" and deal more with dodging than just trying to block and stab.

Dheina would definitely be one of those that would "dance" around more and be one to dance in and out to get a hit in and get away from the person to avoid a counter. Dhei's probably my weakest physically and even if she gets someone in a vital point there's still the chance they could do a lot of damage to her (especially because adrenaline is a hell of a thing and a knife wound, even to a vital area, may not stop a person right away. Especially if they're used to fighting and pain) , but she's fast so she'd use that as much as she could. She's also the most timid out of my knife users and may want to avoid hurting the person as much as she can and maybe just try to disable them to help someone else escape or to escape from the situation herself.

and Armi would probably show off the most as she stabbed the shit out of someone

[Anthony Valron]

I only have one issue with knife fights.

 

You're going to get cut. Two people with knives who are fighting - both will end up with multiple slashes or stabs. No matter who wins.

 

You. Are. Going. To. Get. Cut.

 

So bleed a bit.

[Paradox]

This echos my sentiments extremely well.  A proper knife fight can really play to the emotions and allow characters to focus on interaction and tension.  Flips and explosions rarely have the same effect.  I find that the more RP'ers focus on kinetics, the softer the emotional impact of the RP usually becomes.  

 

 

This is also my entire opinion on the whole thing. Why does combat realism matter in a fantasy setting? Because it has more impact than laser-light rock concerts claiming to be battles. And even with the presence of magic, realism doesn't change. We can know exactly how a fireball spell would be used in the real world, because it doesn't really alter the fundamentals of combat. With a bit of research and a good amount of rational thought, you absolutely can make believable use of Holy.   

 

So if you're just out for a good ol' dick-waving contest, superhero fights are fine and dandy. But they don't make for a compelling story, so much as they end up being "who would win in a fight, the guy who shoots lasers out of his eyes or the guy who breathes mustard gas?"

If they don't make for a compelling story, it is entirely the fault of the people choreographing the fight, and not of the nature of the fight itself. You can make any kind of battle compelling if you know what you're doing. Just because a lot of power is being flung around doesn't necessarily make something a 'dick waving contest', and I find that this general approach and attitude to anything above cavemen waving their clubs or knives around as being dick waving, or 'overpowered' or so on. It is entirely feasible to make a 'superhero' fight as you labeled it very compelling, equally as much as two sweaty gladiators clashing blades like something out of Spartacus. If it doesn't compel, then the writers have done something wrong. That's all there is to it.

 

A fight doesn't have to be 'proper' by the rules of our own real world physical laws to have a compelling element to it. I've watched many a fantasy fight that had a lot of emotional, stirring, and compelling elements, just as much as I've watched more simple, dirty fights that are equally compelling. Then again, considering how dismissive some people are in the realism vs surrealism debate around here, the overall snobbery against 'superhero' fights rarely surprises. Especially considering we're using earth-physics to judge combat 'realism' in a world whose full physical laws we're not entirely certain of. The very presence of a fireball spell already violates a lot of realistic physical laws. But. /shrugs/ It is what you make of it.

 

But if we are going to sue for 'combat realism', then I had better see a lot more people willing to let their characters die in an encounter after they are stabbed or burned. But most people refuse to let their characters die or get wounded mortally without 'express permission' and don't want their characters to die, so the argument for any kind of combat realism is moot. Because combat realism would mean a lot of dead characters with all the fighting liberties they take.

[Caspar]

I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."

The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.

 

I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot. It's not an either-or game either. You can make a realistic fight scene and play it up to a more fanciful degree. If I'm in the mood for it, or it serves a tool for me in writing, that sort of coreography is fine and I enjoy it just as well, but I feel it lacks distinctiveness as it's the dominant paradigm here. I mean, I can enjoy it, sure. I loved Glen Cook's Black Company and combat was primarily of that sort, despite the presence of powerful magic. But realism doesn't rule me, and my tastes are a lot more broad than that.

 

But in any case that's a moot point, because I'm merely describing my preference, and like in OP's case, merely making a thread like this to state it and insinuate others are lesser for not sharing it is meaningless.

[Oli!]

I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."

The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.

 

I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot.

 

 

I'm not going to get into the meat of this argument, but I did want to say that I agree with this.

 

Indeed, there are real martial-arts with dance elements that are very flashy, and still see real use. Capoeira, in particular, comes to mind. One of my characters uses a Hydaelyn-ized version of it.

 

These things are real and out there. Perhaps not common, but out there.

[Caspar]

I think it's pretty crass to suggest fancy coreography is "dickwaving."

The fights in wuxia are beautiful and often heavily coreographed, more akin to dancing than real fighting, yet they can still feel dangerous or intensely serious. To suggest the exaggerated fantasy martial arts common to those shows lack any sort of compelling element is off-base.

 

I'd almost even argue it's faintly Eurocentric, as that emphasis on low fantasy realism seems to be really firmly rooted in European martial arts and popular Western fantasy more than anything else, but that's perhaps a long shot.

 

 

I'm not going to get into the meat of this argument, but I did want to say that I agree with this.

 

Indeed, there are real martial-arts with dance elements that are very flashy, and still see real use. Capoeira, in particular, comes to mind. One of my characters uses a Hydaelyn-ized version of it.

 

These things are real and out there. Perhaps not common, but out there.

This certainly is true, and capoeira is a really fascinating and crowd-pleasing style of fighting. Yet at the same time, even ignoring that it exists, you still have forms of exaggerated stage fighting that are commonplace in entertainment media that are designed to entertain. Forget a practical yet flashy martial art; even the playfighting coreography can entertain if the scene tells a story and maintains some basis of dramatic tension. Even if the characters are powerful, you can still feel uncertain as to who will live, wince at painful moments and look in awe when something very clever or deft is performed. I think it's fine and exciting for people to want to push the envelope of what is possible in a normal fight in real life because we already are typically fine with whatever we see in an action scene so long as it feels good to watch. Whether that means it's a fast, brutal stabfest or an acrobatic display, it should feel viscerally entertaining in some manner. That's why I don't get why the realistic approach is put on a pedestal here when it's not even strictly the only canon depiction.

 

Besides, the only reason why you can't do more modest stabbings ingame as NIN is gameplay limitations; would you want to basically never see any of your attacks in PVE content because your ninja wields their pugiones correctly? It would be an enormous headache.

[Kellach Woods]

Honestly it'd also be another knife in the back to DRG, because no animation locks.

[Zelmanov]

Found this gif, thought it was cool, about how ferocity with a knife is pretty much all is needed to wreck a person. 

 

http://9gag.com/gag/aNKw1Bv

[Flashhelix]

At the risk of sounding like a cop-out, I think looking for combat realism in a world where:

• Knights in full plate with the ability to propel themselves into the air like a fighter jet
  
• Shooting lightning out of your hands
  
• Ninja magic
  
• Handheld energy blasts
  
• And guns mounted on miniature helicopters...
  

 

...not only exist, but are stated in the lore to be tried-and-true effective fighting techniques is pointless. It's a catch-22. To get true realism, you'd have to discount all the techniques that wouldn't do dick in a real fight, which would mean literally going "No, game, you're wrong" and saying that all the things that the game tells you would work in a fight wouldn't. Honestly I think people who come looking for realism in a Final Fantasy game are in the wrong place to begin with. At least half the things on that list are FF staples, after all.

 

Also, am I the only one that's tiring of the "Oh, well the only reason we see X is because Y is a story character!" excuse? There's nothing in the game that suggests this. The dragoons we see jetting around the HW opening are wearing normal-ass purple rank-and-file armor. Illberd wasn't stated to be on the level of any of the Scions, and Raubahn in-story is most likely one of the most skilled gladiators ever, but he's still a normal human by the setting's standards. Y they're still flying around, blasting eachother through pillars and shooting sword-beams. Some of the most basic LNC skills (even if you want to assume that everything after the class quest conclusion at 30 is self-taught) are flashy, twirly, and anime as all hell, yet we see completely normal Wailers and lancers using them without fail.

[Aaron]

Seeing this thread I want to bring up something that'd make some people feel hypocritical as hell lol.

 

But ima keep my mouth shut because it'd derail.

 

Anyway regarding on topics lol yeah anyone who thinks everything needs some realistic basis (flashbacks) to be considered good in a final fantasy game needs a fantasy check.

 

I still agree with the OP to an extent though. A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)

[Xzenivar]

. A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)

 

The biggest offender is mutiliate, you do your attack, THEN backflip. Why!? You already shanked the mofo! *head desks* I love most other attacks though, knife fighting is described as a dance in this game and is more martial arts than down and dirty, at least those twirls come with extra slashes and kicks, so you're using all your limbs for a flurry of attacks.

[Caspar]

. A lot of times twirls and such even in game seem to be wasting valuable offense time. (Looking at you NIN)

 

The biggest offender is mutiliate, you do your attack, THEN backflip.  Why!?  You already shanked the mofo!  *head desks* I love most other attacks though, knife fighting is described as a dance in this game and is more martial arts than down and dirty, at least those twirls come with extra slashes and kicks, so you're using all your limbs for a flurry of attacks.

Yeah, I can't argue with that one haha. Mutilate is a crazy animation. I tried to think of ways you could use it. Maybe the flip is a way for the ninja to reposition after cutting up the target. Or maybe it's a dodge integrated into the move to avoid an inevitable counterattack, since it only inflicts a gradual bleed. In the end, it's just silly and I like to strafe while doing it to see how much ground I can cover in midair...

[Kellach Woods]

Try jumping right before the flip.

[Flickering Ember]

Hmm. I'm not sure what the point of this thread is. 

Is the point to draw attention to folks who roleplay rogues/ninjas so that they might consider emotiong their battles differently?

It seems we all agree that it often comes down to personal preference too.

 

Personally, I tend to prefer a practical approach to combat. I know I can't really be as realistic as I can be but I will try to be as realistic in a way that fits a fantasy setting. (Doesn't really say much but hey) I don't really think the dancing knife style works for someone like Ember, who is 242 pounds and nearly 7 and a half feet all.  So, my impression is that the very acrobatic fighting style usually belongs to someone who is small and lithe. Mostly though, I'm thinking of this:

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SheFu and this : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WaifFu

 

So I tend to view this as a way writers and roleplayers make a female physical combatant while still keeping her traditionally feminine, in a sense. As the combat style we are talking about involves dancing and not standing toe to toe to someone who might be twice your size.

 

 

In general though, it's pretty easy to RP a rogue/ninja this way when most of their combat animations ARE portrayed this way. Most RPers I have ever known don't stray too far from how a class is portrayed and will copy paste abilities you use in game to their own RP.