White Mage Lore

[AFriendOfAFriend]

So, this is a response to information brought up in the Lost City of Amdapor thread. Something that's always made me tilt my head and think is the origin of White Magic. Most, if not all players I've ever come across attribute it to the Elementals of the Shroud, who are now known as the keepers of the art.

 

But... Every instance of in-game lore I can find contradicts this. More specifially, the following text from Raya-O-Senna when asked for an explanation of her art:

 

 

 

"The art now known as white magic dates back to the Fifth Astral Era. It was then that a brilliant young sorceress - for the first time in history - succeeded in channeling not merely her own life energy, but the aether that inhabits the very land itself. Her magic was that of destruction: black magic. The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished.

 

But this era of peace and prosperity would prove short lived. War broke out, and the realm was thrown into chaos. The War of the Magi. To rain death and destruction on their foes, mages summoned forth greater and greater powers. The war raged on, until the aether dried, and the land itself could bear the burden no longer. So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake.

 

The survivors - what few there were - banded together. Vowing never again to repeat their mistake, white and black magic were declared forbidden arts, never to be practiced again. The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals.

 

Ages passed, until five centuries ago, the Elementals at long last welcomed people back into the forest. So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic."

 

 

Most folk I've come across use the above as justification for the Elemental's side of the argument, and certain lines within taken out of context seem to support this - but, all together, it's clearly stated (to me) that this is not the case.

 

"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born."

 

"The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals."

 

"So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic."

 

That last sentence seems to be clincher for most people but, taken in context, Raya isn't referring to 'we' as White Mages as a whole. 'We' in that situation simply means the Padjal. She quite clearly states, as per the first quote, that the White was created by the Amdapori. After the Sixth Umbral Calamity - wherein the Elementals flooded Eorzea - the Shroud grew over the remnants of Amdapor civilization and locked the surviving knowledge of succor away. It was not until the creation of the Padjali that the Elementals deemed anyone fit to pass this knowledge on to.

 

It's my opinion that while the Elementals are the current holders of White Magic, they are not the originators. White Mages are considered to be touchy in roleplay because of their supposed exclusivity - if the Elementals are the creators and keepers of the art, then there is no way to learn it without jumping through some fairly elaborate hoops. If it was in fact created by the Amdapori, though, then that frees the job for use by just about anyone. The seals on the City and Keep of Amdapor have been broken, free for anyone to pilfer the knowledge within. If created by mortal men, able to be taught by mortal men, then the White - like the Black - could have survived the Flood through generations of master/apprentice relationships.

 

The question becomes, I suppose, what you all think? I'd love to hear anyone else's opinion, as this is one of the most frustrating bits of FFXIV lore I've ever come across.

[LiadansWhisper]

As far as I know, the Elementals gifted the Amdapori with Succor to counter Black Magic.

 

But Sounsyy can probably explain better than I can.

 

...someone light the signal!

[BumblingSeaBiscuit]

As far as I know, the Elementals gifted the Amdapori with Succor to counter Black Magic.

 

But Sounsyy can probably explain better than I can.

 

...someone light the signal!

 

 

I think the problem is that, in all of our hunting, we've not found a statement that says the elementals gave the Amdapori the White (only that they gave it to the Padjal). Instead, in the comment by Raya that the Amdapori may of created it themselves:

 

"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished."

As the OP points out, the context of her full statement suggests the Amdapori created it, the elementals wiped it out, and retained the knowledge. From there, they bestowed it onto the Padjali.

 

I've messaged Sounsyy once about this in the past. I really wanted her and N'oh to talk about this because I think seeing them go back and forth in this discussion would be awesome. SOUNSYY, SOUNSYY LOOK.

[Kaiz]

Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way. 

 

Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.

[AFriendOfAFriend]

Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way. 

 

Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.

 

 

I would assume so, both survivors of the War of the Magi and even those able to escape the Lost City after the wards fell. The voidsent within that particular dungeon have even found ways to corrupt and twist white magic to suit their own needs - the Baalzephon tethering themselves to the regenerative magestones in particular.

[LiadansWhisper]

Seems to me that it's a lot like Magi-tek. Sure the empire created it, and it was exclusive to them, but anyone with the right knowledge can use it, and that knowledge can be attained through more than one way. 

 

Wouldn't creatures of the void possibly have this lore as well? This seems like the sort of thing an errant mage would make a faustian deal over.

 

 

I would assume so, both survivors of the War of the Magi and even those able to escape the Lost City after the wards fell. The voidsent within that particular dungeon have even found ways to corrupt and twist white magic to suit their own needs - the Baalzephon tethering themselves to the regenerative magestones in particular.

 

I'm fairly certain that's not White Magic.  Just because it regenerates doesn't mean it's White Magic.

[AFriendOfAFriend]

They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.

[LiadansWhisper]

They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.

 

I seem to recall them being yellow in color, but even so, that effect could very well be a simple game mechanic.

 

Especially given that Succor isn't the only way to heal.  >.>

 

Edited to Add: The truth is, we don't know what perversions the Amdapori came up with on their own. We know that they were perverting White Magic for personal gain, but we don't know how. It's possible that those Magestones are something they created that was later used against them or whatnot. My point being that the Magestones strike me as constructs, not spells-gone-awry, and it seems less likely that the voidsent are directly perverting White Magic and more that they're using constructs (or that the constructs themselves were created using perverted White Magic, but were created by the Amdapori, not the voidsent).

[AFriendOfAFriend]

They're called White Magestones and cast regen - a spell exclusive to white mages. I admit I'm assuming, but it's not that far of a stretch.

 

I seem to recall them being yellow in color, but even so, that effect could very well be a simple game mechanic.

 

Especially given that Succor isn't the only way to heal.  >.>

 

Edited to Add: The truth is, we don't know what perversions the Amdapori came up with on their own. We know that they were perverting White Magic for personal gain, but we don't know how. It's possible that those Magestones are something they created that was later used against them or whatnot. My point being that the Magestones strike me as constructs, not spells-gone-awry, and it seems less likely that the voidsent are directly perverting White Magic and more that they're using constructs (or that the constructs themselves were created using perverted White Magic, but were created by the Amdapori, not the voidsent).

 

I'm not sure color has anything to do with anything, but no. The constructs themselves are made of a dark stone with a blue aetheric core - and I said in my first post on the subject that the voidsent had managed to make use of the objects within the city, not that they had created the things themselves.

 

I wasn't trying to imply any wrongdoing on the part of the Amdapori, or that the stones were a spell. I agree that they are objects, but am pointing out that they cast the spell Regen (the effect icon on the mob is clear) and their magicks have been subverted and possibly corrupted by the voidsent. White magic is not something one would expect to work on beings of the void, yet the Baalzephon have somehow made use of them to keep themselves alive.

 

I quite agree that succor is not the only healing magic in the game, but... in this case that's what it is. You're in the ruins of the civilization of white mages, the object in question has white mage in the name and it's casting a white mage spell - it's a game mechanic, yes, but in my opinion a deliberate one.

 

All that said: This discussion, while interesting, wasn't the point of the thread.

[Xzenivar]

"The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born."

 

"The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals."

 

As the opener points out, this seems to be the clincher. Not only does it imply the people of Amdapor created the White Magic school, but that if the elementals had indeed created it and it was a gift, then they wouldn't have to seal it away. They could just take it back and refuse to not teach anyone. White magic seems to be the product of a magical arms race.

 

With anyone able to loot the lost city, the knowledge would be out there. If it hasn't been passed down in other ways, or even reinvented by someone else, somewhere else. Someone particularly daring, skilled or unwise could make a bargain with or trap a voidsent, and have them act as a teacher. If the voidsent in question knew enough about white magic.

[Sounsyy]

I fully admit there are some texts that seem to imply that Succor was made by the Amdapori, but there are also texts which suggests the Elementals' involvement. Which is right? I don't know. But below I've outlined some points which lead me, personally, to believe White Magic was gifted, not created.

 

 

-Amdapori were originally Thaumaturges, like the Mhachi. Conjury did not exist yet.

 

-If the Amdapori "develop" Succor on their own, why then do the Elementals regift a man-made magic to the Padjal - an Elemental-created race 1,600 years later? A race designed to house Succor.

 

-In the 1.0 Quest Chorus of Cataclysm, after calming the Elementals of the Wood, Oha-Sok says this:

Of their own free will' date=' they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side.[/quote']

 

-How do Elementals gift succor if it is man-made? And the phrase "light of succor" sounds holy, reverent, pure. Based on everything that the Elementals consider mankind to be... a man-made white magic would be none of those things.

 

In order to save Eorzea' date=' we must avail ourselves of greater power─-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.[/quote']

 

 

-Additionally, the magic of the Fae is also called Succor, but the Fae were man-made, so then is Succor man-made as well? But then why would the Scholars need to create the Fae to gain access to Succor if it was man-made? Why create an Elemental? If the power was already in your hands? 

 

Which leads me to believe it wasn't. I think the Scholars of Nym saw the Succor of the White Mages and they sought to create their own, but only Elementals have that magic, so they needed to create a lesser Elemental. Thus were born the Fae. Perhaps this was the perversion of Succor that the Elementals spoke of? We don't know. Probably never will. 

 

Another possible theory on what this perversion was:

Raya-O-Senna: My sister has chosen to return to Gridania. She intends to use her powers to fight in defense of her people.

Oha-Sok: Hast thou forgotten the Pact of Gelmorra? The powers granted to the Padjal must not be used in conflict.

[Berrod Armstrong]

I fully admit there are some texts that seem to imply that Succor was made by the Amdapori, but there are also texts which suggests the Elementals' involvement. Which is right? I don't know. But below I've outlined some points which lead me, personally, to believe White Magic was gifted, not created.

 

 

-Amdapori were originally Thaumaturges, like the Mhachi. Conjury did not exist yet.

 

-If the Amdapori "develop" Succor on their own, why then do the Elementals regift a man-made magic to the Padjal - an Elemental-created race 1,600 years later? A race designed to house Succor.

 

-In the 1.0 Quest Chorus of Cataclysm, after calming the Elementals of the Wood, Oha-Sok says this:

Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own. Till such time as the light of succor shineth in every corner of the realm, together with my kindred, I shall remain by thy side.

 

-How do Elementals gift succor if it is man-made? And the phrase "light of succor" sounds holy, reverent, pure. Based on everything that the Elementals consider mankind to be... a man-made white magic would be none of those things.

 

In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater power─-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

 

 

-Additionally, the magic of the Fae is also called Succor, but the Fae were man-made, so then is Succor man-made as well? But then why would the Scholars need to create the Fae to gain access to Succor if it was man-made? Why create an Elemental? If the power was already in your hands? 

 

Which leads me to believe it wasn't. I think the Scholars of Nym saw the Succor of the White Mages and they sought to create their own, but only Elementals have that magic, so they needed to create a lesser Elemental. Thus were born the Fae. Perhaps this was the perversion of Succor that the Elementals spoke of? We don't know. Probably never will. 

 

Another possible theory on what this perversion was:

Raya-O-Senna: My sister has chosen to return to Gridania. She intends to use her powers to fight in defense of her people.

Oha-Sok: Hast thou forgotten the Pact of Gelmorra? The powers granted to the Padjal must not be used in conflict.

 

I'll start off by saying that I myself am not sure if Succor is man made or not based on the implications of what has been discussed above. From what I read, however...these things keep floating in my mind. Bear with me, I'll tout none of it as fact, just simply as my own musings. 

 

...most of the points countering the possible man-made origin of white magic seem to come from the Padjal, who may or may not have been fed this by the elementals. It explains the sanctity of it, why they regard it as holy. It sounds like it's fact but it's very possible that it could be subjective. Elementals controlling the information their creations receive, etc. 

 

As for the scholars creating Fae to gain access to succor; I'm thinking that they perceived the elemental power/aether within the twelveswood was the source from which the white mages drew. Not that the elementals themselves GIFTED the Amdapori, but rather the aether the Amdapori used was perhaps SIPHONED from them and their lands. Without a source like that in Nym, they may have perhaps created the Fae to compensate. 

 

To me it seems rather up in the air, with all the answers based on subjective views on the events -- we don't have that definite word of yea or nay.  Is it too late for the submission of questions to the lore panel? This seems like a good one!

[Yssen]

This area of lore bits, like most areas of lore bits surrounding the elementals, strikes on a particularly frustrating note for all people diving into finding lore. Unreliable narrator.

 

Stuff contradicts itself because it is meant to as part of the story/setting, and even the NPCs either don't know or are not revealing the entire truth of what is going on. We have to take what they say with huge helpings of salt, or make our best educated guess based on what is presented. The only primary source of lore we have is what Koji and the rest of the lore team devs reveal to us, and even they cannot reveal to us everything. This is not to say that we cannot use NPCs as sources to try and figure stuff out, it just means that when the we have a contradiction between what the devs have said and what the NPCs are saying we have to assume the NPCs are wrong in some way/shape/form. This "take with salt" situation is not limited to the subjects of the elementals, Gridania, and the Black Shroud. 

 

 

The shear number of "things what we find out are completely untrue" going through the Heavensward plot borders on the level of staggering.

 

 

 

With that said this is what we know about Succor:

 

- It was discovered by the Amdapori.

- There are ways to get it without it being gifted by the Shroud elementals (either by unknown more nefarious means, or possibly being granted access by elementals outside of the Shroud).

- Mankind was cut off from it by the Shroud elementals after the War of the Magi because of its miss use in the war and the time period leading up to it.

- There are connection between it and the Amdapori voidsent (Diabolos and such).

- The Padjal have been granted use of it as part of the Pact of Gelmorra, and may or may not have been created to be the sole wielders of it after the Shroud elementals cut mankind off from it. They are the sole wielders of Succor (other than the WoL) that do so with the Shroud elemental's approval.

 

My personal vote, from what we know first hand, is that Succor was discovered by the Amdapori. It may not be a man made source of power, but the art of using it as a power source certainly is. In point of fact, most magic sources were not made my man, they aleady existed. People simply figured out how to use and direct them (or they were given a "how-to book" by the Ascians). Mankind figuring out how to tap into Succor seems to have been the primary reason the Shroud elementals went cuckoo bananas. 

 

Basically, White Magic was created by man. The power source for it has always existed and is presently under the elemental's control (specifically the Shroud elementals, we have yet to really hear for certainty if elementals outside the Shroud can or cannot grant access to it).

[Sylentmana]

I just finished the White Mage quests recently and it seemed to me that the Elementals didn't create White Magic but now control the knowledge of how to perform it. Mankind didn't "create" these new forms of magic so much as discover how to use it. Succor has always existed, but the Amdapori learned how to tap into it in response to the threat posed by the Black Mages.

 

Perhaps the Elementals originally gifted the Amdapori with the knowledge, but they couldn't control what they did with it. This means that the knowledge could be passed down from mage to apprentice and that the knowledge could conceivably be obtained from texts found within the lost city or even rediscovered by a lucky and/or especially studious mage. Certainly, the Elementals would not appreciate such a thing and performing any unsanctioned White Magic within the Shroud would be a very effective way to incite the Green Wrath.

 

This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

[LiadansWhisper]

This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

 

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

 

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

 

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

 

Ever.  Not ever.

 

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

I'm not sure color has anything to do with anything, but no. The constructs themselves are made of a dark stone with a blue aetheric core - and I said in my first post on the subject that the voidsent had managed to make use of the objects within the city, not that they had created the things themselves.

 

I wasn't trying to imply any wrongdoing on the part of the Amdapori, or that the stones were a spell. I agree that they are objects, but am pointing out that they cast the spell Regen (the effect icon on the mob is clear) and their magicks have been subverted and possibly corrupted by the voidsent. White magic is not something one would expect to work on beings of the void, yet the Baalzephon have somehow made use of them to keep themselves alive.

 

But we actually know that the Amdapori were doing wrong.  They absolutely had taken White Magic and perverted it for selfish gain.  It's one of the few things that remains consistent in the various stories we're given about that time period.  So actually, yes, the Magestones could very well have been (as I said) created with a perversion of White Magic by the Amdapori.  When I initially read your post, I thought you were saying that the voidsent themselves had perverted White Magic to create the stones.  I'm personally of the mind that creatures of the void cannot really interact with Succor - it would be anathema to them.  I don't think they would, themselves, be able to twist Succor to their will, but I do think they'd be able to use constructs, similar to the way that the Garleans, who cannot use magic at all, are able to use Magitek.

 

I quite agree that succor is not the only healing magic in the game, but... in this case that's what it is. You're in the ruins of the civilization of white mages, the object in question has white mage in the name and it's casting a white mage spell - it's a game mechanic, yes, but in my opinion a deliberate one.

 

All I was saying is that jumping to conclusions that it's voidsent actively twisting White Magic to heal themselves is a stretch.  If they were actively twisting magic, it would make more sense for it to be something like Arcanomancy (though that would probably be just as hard, since it's so ordered and voidsent appear to be chaotic) or Thaumaturgy (which absolutely has healing abilities).

 

All that said: This discussion, while interesting, wasn't the point of the thread.

 

I understand it's not the point of the thread, but threads on public forums go in various directions based on what is said in them.  You can't expect people not to comment on something they find weird, or leave a statement of "fact" unchallenged because it might push the topic in a direction you don't want it to go.

[LiadansWhisper]

This area of lore bits, like most areas of lore bits surrounding the elementals, strikes on a particularly frustrating note for all people diving into finding lore. Unreliable narrator.

 

Stuff contradicts itself because it is meant to as part of the story/setting, and even the NPCs either don't know or are not revealing the entire truth of what is going on. We have to take what they say with huge helpings of salt, or make our best educated guess based on what is presented. The only primary source of lore we have is what Koji and the rest of the lore team devs reveal to us, and even they cannot reveal to us everything. This is not to say that we cannot use NPCs as sources to try and figure stuff out, it just means that when the we have a contradiction between what the devs have said and what the NPCs are saying we have to assume the NPCs are wrong in some way/shape/form. This "take with salt" situation is not limited to the subjects of the elementals, Gridania, and the Black Shroud. 

 

 

The shear number of "things what we find out are completely untrue" going through the Heavensward plot borders on the level of staggering.

 

 

 

 

In fairness, we knew going into this that most of that was probably a lie.  The story never really made any sense to me - and that's going back to the references we had from 1.0.  History is always written by the victors, and we already knew before we went anywhere near Ishgard that stuff was rotten to the core (especially after the end of that patch trailer that showed the Archbishop with some Very Bad Friends).

 

With that said this is what we know about Succor:

 

- It was discovered by the Amdapori.

 

We don't know if it was discovered by them, we know they were the first to use it wholescale.

 

- There are ways to get it without it being gifted by the Shroud elementals (either by unknown more nefarious means, or possibly being granted access by elementals outside of the Shroud).

 

The first alternative is confirmed by the devs.  The second has no confirmation that I am aware of.  Never seen it mentioned before.  As far as we know, the elementals in areas outside of the Shroud are busy sleeping and not interacting with mortals when at all possible.  I'm not sure that a non-Hearer would be able to communicate with them at all to actually receive this blessing (and remember that the Pact of Gelmorra was only struck after Hearers were abruptly born into the population of Gelmorrans).

 

- Mankind was cut off from it by the Shroud elementals after the War of the Magi because of its miss use in the war and the time period leading up to it.

- There are connection between it and the Amdapori voidsent (Diabolos and such).

 

Not...really?  Diabolos and the other voidsent were summoned into there by the Black Mage city, not the Amdapori as far as we know.

 

- The Padjal have been granted use of it as part of the Pact of Gelmorra, and may or may not have been created to be the sole wielders of it after the Shroud elementals cut mankind off from it. They are the sole wielders of Succor (other than the WoL) that do so with the Shroud elemental's approval.

 

I got the impression from the questline that the Padjal being granted Succor may have been a side-effect of the purpose the Elementals had for them.  They just happened to be the "best option."

 

My personal vote, from what we know first hand, is that Succor was discovered by the Amdapori. It may not be a man made source of power, but the art of using it as a power source certainly is. In point of fact, most magic sources were not made my man, they aleady existed. People simply figured out how to use and direct them (or they were given a "how-to book" by the Ascians). Mankind figuring out how to tap into Succor seems to have been the primary reason the Shroud elementals went cuckoo bananas.

 

I think you're ignoring a lot of what the quests say about what was going on the time.  Your idea is trite and fun, but doesn't really fit with what the quests and dialogue say.  It wasn't mankind gaining access to Succor that sent the Elementals into a rage.  It was what they - and the Black Mages - did with that power.

 

Basically, White Magic was created by man. The power source for it has always existed and is presently under the elemental's control (specifically the Shroud elementals, we have yet to really hear for certainty if elementals outside the Shroud can or cannot grant access to it).

 

I'm not willing to say with certainty that White Magic was "created" by mankind.  The lore seems to indicate that Succor has always existed, and that mankind merely learned how to tap into it after being gifted with the knowledge of its existence by the Elementals.  This differs from Black Magic, which was clearly discovered by a mortal (Shattoto) who did extensive research and experimentation to discover it.

[Sounsyy]

For the sake of the discussion, I figure I should post the lore compilation of quotes from the Lost City Lore thread that was referenced in the OP:

 

 

Amdapor & War of the Magi Lore Text Compilation

 

But tell me, are you versed in the histories? I take from your silence that you are not. No matter, it shall be my pleasure to educate you. The Fifth Astral Era is said to have begun approximately three millennia ago. The ice age that ushered in the Fifth Umbral Era made the land a barren and merciless place, and man was pushed to the limits of his resourcefulness in the struggle to survive. Yet survive he did, through the discovery of magic as we know it─an event which marked the dawning of the Fifth Astral Era.

 

At first, man was well pleased just to have the means to keep the cold at bay and compete with the other races. But man is nothing if not an ambitious beast. It was not long before he began to seek mightier magicks, hoping to win greater glory. It was this desire that brought forth black magic, the arcane art of destruction, into the world. In order that this force of chaos be kept in check and balance preserved, at roughly the same point in history, white magic, the arcane art of succor, came into existence.

 

Emboldened by magic, man went on to reach the zenith of glory. But his hunger knew no bounds. Over time, even they who donned the white began perverting their powers for the sake of self-gain, and in this single-minded pursuit scrupled not to sully the sanctity of the Twelveswood. In his pride and avarice, man brought down the wrath of the elementals upon himself. A great deluge was sent to cleanse the land of his wicked presence, in the wake of which the forest rose to swallow up all that was not washed away. Thus did the Six Umbral Era begin...or so it is told.

 

The mages of Amdapor devised this arcane art during the Fifth Astral Era to counter the destructive black magic of Mhachi sorcerers. Focusing heavily upon spells of restoration and purification' date=' the practice of white magic led to great advances in Amdapori society. Intoxicated by their newfound power, however, the magi surrendered prudence to ambition.[/quote']

 

The Amdapori initially harnessed basic magicks for use in their city's defenses' date=' drawing and expanding upon the primitive knowledge of golem creation to temporarily imbue stone statues with life. However, in the ninth century, mages of the ancient city bore witness to Mhach's use of the destructive arts to subjugate neighboring city-states. Wary of their neighbor's ambitions, the Amdapori sought to counter these black magicks by improving upon their own spellcraft, weaving with the intent to purify, ward, and heal - the art of white magic.[/quote']

 

The ephemeral guardian spirits of the Twelveswood. With bodies comprised entirely of aether' date=' these entities are nevertheless possessed of an intelligence and intent that can be sensed by those blessed with preternatural awareness. The elementals perceive the aether-draining nature of white magic as a direct threat to their existence, and for centuries did they seek to prevent its secrets from reentering the world.[/quote']

 

Born in magic, the ancient city of Amdapor lived in splendor and died in agony. As the Fifth Astral Era gave way to the Sixth Umbral and the ensuing catastrophe, the agent of Amdapor's destruction slept. Now, the seal that has held so long is softening like windfallen fruit - and what blind worms writhe underneath the skin of the dead city?

 

Amdapor was not always thus afflicted. Indeed' date=' the city once owed an age of prosperity to the benevolent art of white magic. But that was before the War of the Magi. It is told that the enemies of the Amdapori abandoned all caution in their pursuit of victory, and used their dark magicks to summon a king among demons. Though the mages of Amdapor eventually succeeded in imprisoning this fell creature, its recent resurgence speaks eloquently to the impermanence and unpredictability of arcane energies.[/quote']

 

Once, the lost civilization of Amdapor thrived in the Twelveswood, her citizens wielders of powerful, yet forbidden magicks which could be used to alter the very fabric of existence. However, as is oft the case with peoples who fancy themselves gods, the self-assuring hubris of the Amdapori eventually became their downfall, and as quickly as they rose to power, did they disappear from the world. For generations, this relic of their once-mighty civilization has remained hidden in plain sight - cloaked by the elementals who sought only to prevent newer generations from stumbling across the ancient Amdapori magicks. That is, until the Lambs of Dalamud - a dark cult who worships the now-fallen lesser moon as a god - dispelled the elementals' glamour by means unknown, and claimed the keep as their own. Now the crazed followers use its ancient chambers to perform blood sacrifices in an effort to resurrect their evil lord.

 

The origins of black magic can be traced back many, many years - to the beginning of the Fifth Astral Era, to be precise. There lived at that time in Eorzea a powerful sorceress named Shatotto, who strived to push the destructive power of magic to its very limits. The typical practice of magi is to weave magic using their own aether. The ability to do so is the greatest magical gift, yet at the same time that gift's greatest limit.

 

Shatotto was able to overcome such inherent limitations by developing a new technique which allowed her to draw upon the aether all around her as the fount of her magic. It was this technique that came to be known as black magic. Following the War of the Magi and the Sixth Umbral Calamity, however, black magic was branded far too great a danger to life, and so its use and even its mere mention were made forbidden. Over time, it came to be forgotten entirely. Or so it was thought...

 

The art now known as white magic dates back to the Fifth Astral Era. It was then that a brilliant young sorceress - for the first time in history - succeeded in channeling not merely her own life energy, but the aether that inhabits the very land itself. Her magic was that of destruction: black magic. The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished.

 

But this era of peace and prosperity would prove short lived. War broke out, and the realm was thrown into chaos. The War of the Magi. To rain death and destruction on their foes, mages summoned forth greater and greater powers. The war raged on, until the aether dried, and the land itself could bear the burden no longer. So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake.

 

The survivors - what few there were - banded together. Vowing never again to repeat their mistake, white and black magic were declared forbidden arts, never to be practiced again. The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals.

 

Ages passed, until five centuries ago, the Elementals at long last welcomed people back into the forest. So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic.

 

According to the loremasters' books, there was an age of shadow and calamity some fifteen hundred-odd years ago, when a great flood drowned the world─the sixth Umbral Era, they called it. Believers say it was the twelve Archons what came to fight the darkness then.

 

They say Ahldbhar was the mightiest of the twelve Archons. Rhalgr the Destroyer himself, taken form in Roegadyn flesh─a bloody mountain of a man, and a fearsome warrior, besides. You must've seen renderings of Rhalgr at some point─in paint or stone. Looks like a bag of angry muscles in a mage's robes, right? Aye, well, those are done in the likeness of Archon Ahldbhar.

 

Ahldbhar fought relentlessly against a clan of wicked sorcerers that sought only to wreak havoc on the world through their dark powers. But then, something happened... Something that threw Ahldbhar into deep despair. And in the end, he turned and took up with the enemy, though none can say as to why.

 

What came of him after his betrayal? Well, I confess I haven't heard the end of the tale myself. That bard's a wily bugger, see, and he only ever gets part way through before his throat dries out. Meaning I have to give him yet another bloody ale─free of charge, of course.

 

Oha-Sok is the collective fury of the elementals given form. Their suffering summoned her forth' date=' and in her turn she stokes the fire of their rage with her keening. As I related to you earlier, it was the rage of the elementals that brought an end to the civilization of the Fifth Astral Era. And now the selfsame harbinger of that destruction is come once more. The histories vividly describe the fearsome nature of the elemental of nihility─or “the Wrath,” as she is sometimes called. It is writ that each time she keens, she sets off a hundred of her kind to doing the same. Ever more elementals shall join the keening, and so shall it continue until their chorus rends the land asunder. And then the heavens shall spill forth a deluge of tears, and the trees weep till they are hoarse of voice. Oha-Sok's awakening spells cataclysm for Eorzea...[/quote']

 

The aether should be left be! Has history taught you naught about the folly of the Nymians? The Amdapori? The Mhachi?

 

 

 

These frightful guardians are the creations of ancient spellcraft' date=' given life when a chosen wall was inscribed with an arcane pattern of blood. Though their masters have long since perished, these sentinels of demonic visage continue to protect the crumbling ruins to which they are bound─to the surprise and horror of many an unsuspecting adventurer.[/quote']

 

For many years, modern archeologists did not understand how a seemingly primitive civilization without clockwork or steam technology could build the massive stone structures of Amdapor. Animated bricks, such as this one that has chosen to follow you, may be the missing link.

 

Monarch Ogrefly, the dread vilekin of the lost city of Amdapor. The barrier that seals in its infestations is considered sound... yet even the Gods' Quiver could not stop the monstrous Ogreflies from escaping with their deadly taint of mold and burrs.

 

The first among gremlins in saltiness of speech, the Ghede Ti Malice finally lost its place in Amdapor after one too many contumelies. The Ghede Ti Malice wouldn't be the first to fall out with its gremlin mates. Thin skin and big mouths make for an uneasy combination.

 

Mage-controlled golems were in such wide use by the end of the Fifth Astral Era that entire battles were waged by armies comprised of nothing but the lifeless soulkin. This recreation, however, is nothing but a standard #001 mammet outfitted with simple gravel plating.

 

In death does Mahisha find its purpose, and so the scent of corse-flower is sweet to this creature. A stele unearthed at Nym records Mahisha was summoned during the War of the Magi in the Fifth Astral Era, for the conquest of the Floating City. The ploy failed and Mahisha was bound at great cost, by the efforts of some two-score phrontists at Nym. What broke the tethers is not known, though there are theories ranging from the Calamity to the humble weevil.

[Sylentmana]

This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

 

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

 

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

 

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

 

Ever.  Not ever.

 

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

 

Well, that was quite the overreaction to a rather unimportant statement. Also, you don't really know the experiences of everyone so to say no one has ever said a thing is only limited to you experience. Maybe you have not experienced it, but some of us have.

[Aduu Avagnar]

This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

 

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

 

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

 

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

 

Ever.  Not ever.

 

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

 

Well, that was quite the overreaction to a rather unimportant statement. Also, you don't really know the experiences of everyone so to say no one has ever said a thing is only limited to you experience. Maybe you have not experienced it, but some of us have.

Thing is, the comment on Censure keeps being brought up in arguments about lore, usually only when someone disagrees with someone. Typically targeted at a few certain people, so it is understandable that they would react in such a manner.

[BumblingSeaBiscuit]

I understand it's not the point of the thread' date=' but threads on public forums go in various directions based on what is said in them.  You can't expect people not to comment on something they find weird, or leave a statement of "fact" unchallenged because it might push the topic in a direction you don't want it to go.[/quote']

 

I think that threads have topic purposes they're meant to be kept to. For that, I believe N'oh was just trying to state he didn't want the thread to go off too far on that discussion, as it would be something for a different thread. People are allowed to request threads are kept to their initial purpose. 

 

This is just the way I see it from playing the White Mage quests and why I believe the RP community's censure of people RPing White Mages is ultimately unjustified.

 

No one has censured anyone for any reason.  I do not understand why this keeps coming up.

 

Not everyone is going to agree with everything you do, not here and not in real life.  So do what you want.  No one is saying that you can't play whatever you want.  No one has ever said that.

 

Now, they've said, "I don't acknowledge that in my RP."  And they've said, "This isn't backed up by the lore we have in the game."  But no one has ever, ever - not even one damn time - said, "You can't play that because I say so."

 

Ever.  Not ever.

 

No one is censuring anyone.  Just because they don't agree with something you're doing does not mean they are censuring you.  It means they don't agree with you.  Which is something adults do all the time - not agree with each other.  Doesn't mean anyone is being mean to anyone else.  Doesn't mean that you can't do what you want.  It means someone disagrees with you.  That's it.  That's all.  That's literally all it is.

 

Well, that was quite the overreaction to a rather unimportant statement. Also, you don't really know the experiences of everyone so to say no one has ever said a thing is only limited to you experience. Maybe you have not experienced it, but some of us have.

Thing is, the comment on Censure keeps being brought up in arguments about lore, usually only when someone disagrees with someone. Typically targeted at a few certain people, so it is understandable that they would react in such a manner.

 

Similar to my statement above, whereas I understand the need to feel one's voice get out there on both sides of this spectrum, I think the what has, and what hasn't, been experienced by various players isn't something that should be addressed in this particular thread. I've seen these particular topics go south very quickly and I would like to see this thread stay on a positive track of debate. x:

 

 

A little more on track:

Thank you Sounsyy for the lore quotes!

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

I think that threads have topic purposes they're meant to be kept to. For that, I believe N'oh was just trying to state he didn't want the thread to go off too far on that discussion, as it would be something for a different thread. People are allowed to request threads are kept to their initial purpose. 

 

I understand that, but it came across as, "Don't talk about that" when he was the one who put the statement out there.  All I was saying is that on a public forum, do not be surprised when conversation goes in unexpected directions.  It's a bit like running a story for a group of players - they are never going to do what you expect, and the one thing you didn't plan on dealing with is what they're going to do.  Every time.  :bouncy:

[AFriendOfAFriend]

Well, didn't expect this to receive so many replies!

 

One of the recurring questions I'm seeing is why/how did the Elementals gift knowledge of white magic to the Padjali if they themselves were not the originators of it? There's a simple explanation in my opinion: White magic is something of an extremely pure form of conjury. In using it, you are communicating with and channeling nature. The Elementals were able to feel that connection - the pervesion and overuse of it being one of the things that led to their flooding Eorzea. They knew that the White held the potential to do good in the right hands, and so could easily have either communicated the ability to the Padjal or led them to the ruins of Amdapor where they could learn from the left behind teachings. The Padjali were also created to act as mediators between the Elementals and the people of Gelmorra - what better way to keep them safe than to have them know one of the most powerful branches of magic ever created, with the fringe benefit of being able to better communicate with them because of it?

 

As per the White/Succor being a naturally occurring force that the Amdapori/whoever simply stumbled upon: That's pretty much exactly what it says on the tin. Like the Black, the White is used by tapping into the aether of the planet. Unlike its' sister art that is inherently destructive in nature, the White - while capable of vast levels of carnage - is used primarily to heal and nurture.

 

And, finally, a random aside: A thing to remember is the spells you come across and use in game are teachings passed down from your Padjal instructors, who had an exceedingly long time to experiment with and hone their craft. What we know as white magic today could simply be the refinement of the art by the Padjali, and not its' original Amdapori incarnation.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I just want to point out that conjury was discovered "after" White Magic had already come and gone.

[LiadansWhisper]

I just want to point out that conjury was discovered "after" White Magic had already come and gone.

 

Yes, I believe it was the Moogles who taught it to the Gelmorrans (though I can't recall whether or not it was at the behest of the Elementals there).