Creating a Dragoon...

[Martiallais]

I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...

 

That would take us back to the argument about Ishgardian Duskwights, depending on one's perspective.

 

That said, I'm of the mindset of if it's plausible, go with it. I think a lot of folks feel that way as well, generally speaking. As was pointed out when this came up in the Ishgard RP  LS, the server is a fairly big place, far bigger than the RPC. If you come up with a solid character idea and stick with it, you'll find folks that will accept it and play/RP with you.

 

Sidenote, dragoon headcanon below the cut.

 

The way I've kind of played dragoons in Mar's backstory is that the majority of Ishgardians who are able are trained to fight and shown the basics. Then you have knight training and if you do well enough, you can -then- head into dragoon training. As I believe it was stated somewhere (sorry I don't have the exact place/quote), there's a high mortality rate even training to become a dragoon. They're elite for a reason.

 

[Riven]

That instance and that song I swear are ads to make you roll a dragoon. @-@

[Flashhelix]

It is heavily implied, as said before, that Ishgardian blood is needed to properly awaken "the inner dragon" so to speak. The fact that hyur can do it as well means that there would have to be a small amount of crossbreeding. Not to mention that it's also treated as less like a biological issue and more of an outright curse set on Ishgardians for eating Ratatoskr's eyes, in the process of integrating into Ishgard, the hyur could've also been stricken by this curse, or there might have even been hyur in Ishgard whenever the eyes were eaten in the first place.

[Virella]

Orphans in Ishgard are A+ class Dragoon material if I remember the levequests properly! Hatred for dragons + losing your parents to them make good dragoons apparently. I imagine their training starts pretty early on in life due to the whole picking orphans to become Dragoons. So I don't think you can just swag in and master being a Dragoon in a few weeks of training.

[Ashe]

I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...

 

That would take us back to the argument about Ishgardian Duskwights, depending on one's perspective.

 

That said, I'm of the mindset of if it's plausible, go with it. I think a lot of folks feel that way as well, generally speaking. As was pointed out when this came up in the Ishgard RP  LS, the server is a fairly big place, far bigger than the RPC. If you come up with a solid character idea and stick with it, you'll find folks that will accept it and play/RP with you.

 

Sidenote, dragoon headcanon below the cut.

 

The way I've kind of played dragoons in Mar's backstory is that the majority of Ishgardians who are able are trained to fight and shown the basics. Then you have knight training and if you do well enough, you can -then- head into dragoon training. As I believe it was stated somewhere (sorry I don't have the exact place/quote), there's a high mortality rate even training to become a dragoon. They're elite for a reason.

 

 

Wellll

I think there are Ishgardian Duskwights because of DD and that alone >> Their base was a giant cave...only a Duskwight would live in caves like that.

I never argued against that actually haha.

[Sylastair]

Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably...

Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. 

 

Everyone else has got it down.

 

....

You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >>

 

Have a Good Excuse is the game here.

 

Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since:

 

 

we have implications within the story that high-level Dragoon powers / magic may require Ishgardian blood if you don't have access to a dragon eye

 

 

 

 

 

 

but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business.

Speaking to your Spoiler:

 

 

 

The issue there is the fact that then only Elezen should be capable of being Dragoons/The Azure Dragoon. We do however have Hyur Dragoons and a Hyur Azre Dragoon, meaning the blood piece doesn't really hold up.

 

 

 

Miqo'te, pls.

 

Kidding ! I agree; just because I haven't seen a certain race or nationality be dragoon in the MSQ does not mean to me that it cannot be so unless explicitly explained otherwise . . Or at least that is how I see it. I feel like there are one million different reasons, methods, ways that this knowledge could have been imparted to non-locals or those of exotic race. Just my opinion - but if you have a concept that is not just. . . mental - GO FOR IT. You do not need to justify yourself to anyone else unless you want to : >

 

#MamaDahlmelSpreadsDRGLove

Ameline for President 2020. No I agree, I don't think the lore supports much of this but that's also because interpretation plays a big part. I've never hid the fact I RP a Miqo DRG, and really love it . I think it's a cool story, and honestly love the setting because it challenges me and the character in fun ways. I appreciate all the opinions in here and what was brought to the table. #JumpStab4Lyfe

[Ronin'ra]

I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all. 

The knowledge CAN be imparted but if you're a miqo'te or Au Ra you need the Holy See to recognize your achievements which, as an outsider, it's like 1) why would you ICly care and 2) why would the Holy See care.

 

You can have all the power and knowledge but if the people it matters to will most likely not recognize it then what's the point.

 

The whole non-Elezen/Hyur Dragoons thing IS mental in my opinion but people CAN go for it. 

 

Ahhhh~ This is my favorite can of worms for a reason~ 

....Next to the WHM/BLM one. That's my second favorite can of worms.

 

Had to dig this out from a while ago, but, during 1.0 the NPC K'leytai was an Ishgardian Knight. Riversmeet, if I remember correctly.

 

 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/K'leytai

 

Her dialogue:

 

"Welcome to Camp Riversmeet. I am Gatewarden K'leytai.

 

 

Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of the Wyrmking's Perch, The Lance, and Twinpools."

 

 

Take it as you will, but there has at least been one. Rare, no doubt. Hope that helps in some sort of decision you're making, OP.

[Ashe]

Ishgardian Knight and Dragoon aren't the same. 

Knights maybe because you don't necessarily need to be high born for that. But dragoons are less likely...

That and 1.0 lore is so sketchy >.<

[Sylastair]

Ishgardian Knight and Dragoon aren't the same. 

Knights maybe because you don't necessarily need to be high born for that. But dragoons are less likely...

That and 1.0 lore is so sketchy >.<

If I'm not mistaken Dragoon is just a title for killing a 'true' dragon. To me, being make a Knight for Ishgard is a far bigger deal for a non-Elezen than simply scoring a kill. Should a knight kill a 'true' dragon, they would then be a Dragoon by title, but how one learns to fight all jump/stab style is still up in the air.

[Ashe]

They have completely different jobs. Temple Knights hunt heretics. Dragoons kill dragons. There are Knights who do not use lances. 

I think they learn that through unlocking their dragon blood that is in their Ishgardian veins....meaning you have to be Ishgardian to be a Dragoon >.<

The Azure Dragoon with the eye grants the same power...hence why the WoL could learn those abilities.

[V'aleera]

Glad to see someone else beat me to the punch on dispelling the "no non-Elezen/Hyur Ishgardians exist" myth. IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim. There's a longer and more abstract argument to be made here but I don't feel like writing that all out again at the moment.

 

Now onto the subject of certain special dragon powers. I believe it would be wise to note that the abilities high level dragoons are given, starting with Dragonfire Dive, never see canon use outside of an Azure Dragoon. It's entirely possible, and in my opinion most likely, that the greatest feat of strength achievable for a standard dragoon elite is the ability to jump in extraordinary fashions.

 

Given Ishgard's history and culture I simply find it extremely hard to believe that an entire wing of their military would openly use dragon magic derived from dragon blood.

[Flashhelix]

I do believe that

cursed Ishgardian blood (which only hyur and elezen would seem to have from what the MSQ has implied along with the 30-50 DRG quest)

would be a requirement to reach one's true potential as a dragoon, and is simply why all dragoons we see are either elezen or hyur (along with the whole xenophobia thing).

 

Honestly I feel like the stretches that some people take to make their character X class can be far-fetched at times. How many old dragoons are there? And out of those old dragoons, who would be open to actively training somebody who was not only an outsider, who p. much everybody in Ishgard with the exception of House Fortemps is distrustful of, but train an outsider in the sacred dragonslaying art that is so advanced you have to prove you can kill one without it to even be allowed to learn it?

 

THAT BEING SAID, I take a few liberties with dragoon powers myself, namely that my dragoon character can do things like the Geirskogul, mostly because the only one explicitly stated to only be possible by the Azure Dragoon is the Dragonfire Dive. In one of the DRG quests you even make up a brand new technique, the lore is too barren to assume much when it comes to the abilities themselves. If you can sell it, any concept is possible, but I feel like some people don't put enough effort into selling it.

[Volk]

Ishgardian Knight and Dragoon aren't the same. 

Knights maybe because you don't necessarily need to be high born for that. But dragoons are less likely...

That and 1.0 lore is so sketchy >.<

If I'm not mistaken Dragoon is just a title for killing a 'true' dragon. To me, being make a Knight for Ishgard is a far bigger deal for a non-Elezen than simply scoring a kill. Should a knight kill a 'true' dragon, they would then be a Dragoon by title, but how one learns to fight all jump/stab style is still up in the air.

 

As far as I have come to understand, being a knight has MUCH more to do with pedigree and bloodlines than dragoon. As a knight, I think the religious dogma angle is much more prevalent too. Exceptions are everywhere, but I know it would be difficult to have my character become a knight as a dirty brume girl than to become a fully sanctioned dragoon under tutelage of another or several of the order.

 

MSQ talks about how Aymeric had difficult time being a knight as a 'low-born' man in 2.5/2.55. To my recollection which is dodgy, I dont recall ever hearing things spoken about dragoons having higher-caste or social barriers to entry like knights. I would imagine many dragoons probably rise from army regulars as shining stars when they kill dragon or something. Idk, just what I think !

[Riven]

Suddenly I'm quite confused...:dazed:

[Seriphyn]

Playing a race in a culture that they are not native to...

 

Although more seriously, in-game, Ishgard is primarily Elezen with Hyur. The Drachen-clad dragoons you see in a sidequest are all Elezen. So, essentially, if you want to go with authenticity, accuracy, and appearing like a natural product of that nation, you'd want to play either Elezen or Hyur. Anything else would be regarded as an exception, and just requires an explanation in the backstory.

 

Something that would be pushing my immersion (and you really shouldn't care about my immersion in particular) is it if it was Au Ra or something.

[Martiallais]

Suddenly I'm quite confused...:dazed:

 

Ask away! You're bound to get answers of one sort or another.

 

The best advice I can offer? Read what's been linked, and the opinions/thoughts posted here and keep in mind what you like as you play/RP.

[V'aleera]

Playing a race in a culture that they are not native to...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke

 

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

[Seriphyn]

Playing a race in a culture that they are not native to...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasuke

 

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

 

One historical exception is not a rule, yo.

 

i.e. Just because there was one African dude in Japan at some point does not mean future Afro-Japanese dudes (in that time period at least) would not be regarded as strange.

[Volk]

Playing a race in a culture that they are not native to...

 

Although more seriously, in-game, Ishgard is primarily Elezen with Hyur. The Drachen-clad dragoons you see in a sidequest are all Elezen. So, essentially, if you want to go with authenticity, accuracy, and appearing like a natural product of that nation, you'd want to play either Elezen or Hyur. Anything else would be regarded as an exception, and just requires an explanation in the backstory.

 

Something that would be pushing my immersion (and you really shouldn't care about my immersion in particular) is it if it was Au Ra or something.

 

I feel like this is probably one of the best responses I have read in this thread, so thank you ! Also, I laughed at the picture

 

So, essentially, if you want to go with authenticity, accuracy, and appearing like a natural product of that nation, you'd want to play either Elezen or Hyur. Anything else would be regarded as an exception, and just requires an explanation in the backstory.

 

I agree on this ! The only thing I try to tell those who ask me is that this explanation in the backstory is something you as a player may craft. Do not feel accountable to those who would thump you on the head because it is atypical !

 

Something that would be pushing my immersion (and you really shouldn't care about my immersion in particular) is it if it was Au Ra or something.

 

Yes, is true my character is an Elezen and all around lore-bore, within-the-boundaries type. But I try so hard to make this exact point to ppl. Who cares what I think ?! Go do your thing, no ? :cactuar: I am strongly of the opinion that no one has the right to stifle another person's creativity. I RP and co-lead FC with a person who RP's a Miqo'te Dragoon and they are amazing. I have RPed with another Miqo Dragoon recently by coincidence who was great too ! Live and let live ! \o /

[V'aleera]

One historical exception is not a rule, yo.

But it is more than enough when arguing plausibility (rather than likelihood).

[Ashe]

The Knights are full of bastard sons (Aymeric, Haurchefant) and second sons (That guy who you have to save around level 38). None of those guys are really the top of society. 

Oh yeah, I wouldn't pull the whole real life Xenophobic examples into this...

If you are born in Japan to non-Japanese parents and lived there all your life, you will forever be a foreigner. There is no exception to that.

I've lived in Japan for 3 years and worked there and even in America I work in Japanese company...I've lived in that society >>

 

SO if we are using that real world example with real world logic...someone who is not Ishgardian by blood, born and raised in Ishgard, will always be considered a foreigner >>

[V'aleera]

SO if we are using that real world example with real world logic...someone who is not Ishgardian by blood, born and raised in Ishgard, will always be considered a foreigner >>

The counter-argument is addressing the notion that it is 100% implausible for non-Hyur/Elezen to exist as citizens within Ishgard. It is not meant to broach the subject of their treatment.

[Verad]

Setting plausibility is the #1 reason people fail to roleplay. Ignore it.

[Judielle Farendaire]

Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

 

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

 

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.  (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this )

 

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.  (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

 

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.  Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...  Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

 

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.  Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.  (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)  House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.  House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

 

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

 

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

 

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord. 

 

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

 

EDIT: Oh! House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

 

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

 

 

V'aleera:

IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

 

 

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

[Sylastair]

Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

 

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

 

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.  (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this )

 

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.  (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

 

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.  Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...  Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

 

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.  Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.  (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)  House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.  House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

 

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

 

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

 

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord. 

 

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

 

EDIT: Oh!  House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

 

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

 

 

V'aleera:

IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

 

 

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow