Creating a Dragoon...

[Ronin'ra]

Heh, glad I read the entire thread or I would have seriously misinterpreted the topic judging from the last few posts. >.>

 

Dragoons and the status of hyur/other races in Ishgard seem to have been talked about extensively, but I haven't seen much mention of High House lore in my skimming.

 

It's easiest to begin talking about the High Houses by speaking of their Coerthan holdings.  (And if the Houses have already been discussed you can just skip all of this )

 

House Fortemps only seems to hold Camp Dragonhead, in Central Coerthas, seeming to indicate that it is the weakest of the Four High Houses.  (Explains why Haurchefant invited so many adventurers, mania or not.)

 

House Dzemael once held Dzemael Darkhold, but lost it to Garlean incursion before it was completely taken over by voidsent.  Said voidsent were cleared by the Warrior of Light, so I'm not sure what the situation is now...  Other than Darkhold, House Dzemael shares the rebuilt Falcon's Nest with House Durendaire.

 

House Haillenarte used to have a great deal of holdings, to my understanding, but lost many by Dravanian attack.  Its knights currently hold the Skyfire Locks, which the countryside peasantry are meant to flee to upon Dravanian attack.  (Lack of said peasantry seen in-game notwithstanding...)  House Haillenarte once held both Steel Vigil and Stone Vigil, if I remember correctly, but has lost them since the Calamity.  House Haillenarte's final holding is Camp Cloudtop, and the Rosehouse by extension, but no one seems to take the outpost quite seriously.

 

House Durendaire holds Whitebrim Front and the Observatorium of Aetherical and Astrological Phenomena, along with its condominium with Dzemael in Falcon's Nest and I believe (?) Stone Vigil, reclaimed from the dragons and handed over to Durendaire control.

 

From what I've seen personally, House Fortemps and House Haillenarte are rather amiable with each other, and there is much traffic between Haillenarte-held Skyfire Locks and Fortemps-held Camp Dragonhead. House Fortemps and House Haillenarte - especially Haillenarte for losing the Vigils - don't seem to be taken too seriously by the rest of Ishgard, especially Dzemael and Durendaire.

 

I've yet to do the questline myself, but I do believe the machinist storyline involves Haillenarte-Dzemael shenanigans involving a traditional Dzemael and relatively progressive, power-to-the-people young Haillenarte lord. 

 

Finally, House Dzemael is said to be the strongest of the High Houses, but I do not believe the why or how has been stated.

 

EDIT: Oh!  House Durendaire looks down especially heavily on House Haillenarte, as the loss of Stone Vigil placed greater pressure on Whitebrim Front, which they are in control of, and Durendaire was tasked with reclaiming the fortress.

 

Off-topic for the moment, because the conversation is personally interesting:

 

 

V'aleera:

IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

 

 

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow

 

There is, yeah. He mentions that his family served in House Dzemael.

 

EDIT: "But if I wasn't bowing and scraping to some pretentious Ul'dahn mechant, I reckon I'd be doing the same to Count Dzemael. That may have suited my father and grandfather, but I've aspirations for a better life."

 

 

 

 

He's involved in the 1.0 Adders/Darkhold quest. "Into the Dark (Gridania)"

 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Into_the_Dark_(Gridania)/Plot_Details

 

Picture of him then:

 

[V'aleera]

 

V'aleera:

IIRC, there's also a Roe heretic held in captivity in Whitebrim.

 

 

Not to diminish your argument, (there's an au ra in broad tavern-light in Foundation, after all), but I believe that the roegadyn is a foreign adventurer, not a native Ishgardian.

It's been a while since I did those quests, so you may be right. If you know of any relevant quest text I'd be curious to read it.

[Judielle Farendaire]

It's been a while since I did those quests, so you may be right. If you know of any relevant quest text I'd be curious to read it.

 

I'll look now and see what I can find!

[Riven]

Also forgot to ask.  Good dragoon last names?

[Sounsyy]

I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all.

 

Um. There's a lot of things that exist in the game world that you don't see but are there. Like schools in Ul'dah or a library in Stillglade Fane. Or the fact that there's a Shepard's Guild in old Falcon's Nest.

 

There are Ishgardian Miqo'te...

 

 

N'canago

 

Ndha Jakkya

 

Panha Jaab

 

K'leytai - Who still exists in 2.0! She fled Riversmeet to the south into Mor Dhona after the calamity. Probably the only reason she isn't dead right now given the state of 3.0 Riversmeet.

 

 

 

Even outside of Ishgard there are Miqo'te like Q'yantaa and O'bhen Tia, who are hunters in Dravania. There's L'khonebb, a Garlond Ironworks engineer and pilot operating in Ishgard. Mujih Mewrilah, a Gridanian native, infiltrates Ishgard using several of her acquaintances. No one seems to bat an eye at her presence.

 

 

Now this is the logic I can't follow... Elezen and Hyur are undoubtedly the two most populous races in Ishgard. No one is questioning that. But the peace between their races only occurred within the last 500 years in Gelmorra. There's a reason the Gelmorran flag is of twin serpents (Elezen and Hyur) encircling a Lotus (symbol of peace).

 

So within the last 500 years, Hyur were allowed to assimilate into Ishgardian society, achieve some small manner of prestige, become knights and dragoons - BUT you believe that Miqo'te would be outright rejected from Ishgard? Miqo'te have been living in Dravania, Sharlayan, the Black Shroud, Gyr Abania, and in Coerthas itself for easily a thousand years and have had no stated history of violence against the Ishgardian Elezen, but in all this time they wouldn't be accepted into Ishgardian society, despite surrounding the region on all sides? What then keeps Roegadyn out of Ishgard? Dzemael seems to have a few Roegadyns hanging about in 1.0 and 2.0.

 

I believe the Roe chef in Costa is a native of Ishgard if I'm not mistaken, have to recheck though. /randomroefactsIthinkIknow

 

Sometimes I question if opening the Flying Shark was the right decision. But if I wasn't bowing and scraping to some pretentious Ul'dahn mechant' date=' I reckon I'd be doing the same to Count Dzemael. That may have suited my father and grandfather, but I've aspirations for a better life.[/quote']

 

EDIT: Eir beat me to it.

 

 

I literally do not see why sometime during all of Ishgard's long existence a Miqo'te family could not have moved into the city-state, killed a dragon, become a citizen, knight, retainer, or whatever. There's nothing barring them from being in the city any more than there is barring Hyur. No one's saying Miqo'te have to be in huge population (lore says they're supposed to be incredibly rare race anyways). And no one's saying there should be Miqo'te nobles or dragoons everywhere. But to outright be incredulous to their existence? There's no reason to be. And don't say xenophobia cuz they've got a bloody Garlean as their second in command of the Temple Knights and Dzemael has several generations of Sea Wolves at their service. Meanwhile, Fortemps hires all manner of foreigners:

 

As for those sworn to House Fortemps... In addition to the knights' date=' squires, and infantry, more than a hundred craftsmen, retainers, and other servants possessed of notable skill are pledged to our service. Given our strong position, one might expect us to have no truck with foreign merchants and sellswords. However, nothing could be further from the truth. I should think that my lord the count was quite clear on this point, but it was our hope that you and your allies would, by your deeds, help us to convince the other High Houses of the wisdom of opening the Gates of Judgement to all - among other things.[/quote']

 

 

Do you NEED to have Ratatoskr's blood in your veins to be a Dragoon? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You just need to kill a dang dragon. Go to the Convictory and you'll find all manner of folk out there trying to do just that - noble, lowborn, foreigner, and sellsword alike. Do you need Ratatoskr's blood to perform super crazy Azure Dragoon-esque aether stunts? IDK. But you've got Hyuran dragoons and if they can interbreed with Elezen I don't see why a Miqo'te couldn't in twice the number of years.

 

 

These race exclusions are ridiculous y'all. Every race exists in every city-state and if you don't believe me I can show you canon examples. If you think certain examples don't count just because the source came from 1.0 you best check yourself cuz like 60% of the lore we know about this world comes from 1.0 and most of the new info they add was just recycled from old 1.0 NPC chat.

 

/endrant.

 

 

Bonus: Have a Far Eastern Miqo'te.

[Ashe]

I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all.

 

Um. There's a lot of things that exist in the game world that you don't see but are there. Like schools in Ul'dah or a library in Stillglade Fane. Or the fact that there's a Shepard's Guild in old Falcon's Nest.

 

We know that Hyur are treated as low born from the 3.0 MSQ so why would miqo'te be treated higher than that?

Also....those examples are all in the game, so those are all valid. 

If Ishgardians are defined by

having the Dragon Blood from the original 12 houses

then no one besides the Elezen are Ishgardians. Period. The rest, even if born there and lived there entire lives and even if their parents were born there later, are foreigners. And that is how Japan works too...and this is a Japnese game.

[Jana]

Ishgard is not Japan. There are plenty of Hyur in the country that aren't lowborn. They are still nobles, even if they're just not heads of the four main houses. The sidequests in there imply you can become a noble by slaying an important enough dragon (which is what a lot of the knights/"plain dragoons" are trying to do in W. Coerthas).

[V'aleera]

I'm pretty sure the Elezen have neglected to inform the other races than have been fighting for Ishgard against the dragons for 1000 years of that little "fact".

 

As far as the lore has been written to this point, nobility is defined by blood. Citizenship is not clearly defined, but probably involves birth, naturalization, and religion.

[Judielle Farendaire]

How exactly are we to define "Ishgardian-ness" as descent from one of the Twelve Houses when this was not common knowledge ICly until the MSQ?  The most patriotic Ishgardian lowborn, before 3.0, would not have known that.

[Flashhelix]

To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.

 

When we see a miqo'te dragoon somewhere, I'll believe it. Simple as that.

 

There are so many ways in which you could say "Well I know the lore says this but ACTUALLY IT'S" yadda yadda but at some point you have to wonder how far bending the lore and abusing the hell out of poor, innocent grey areas is worth it to have a dragoon with cat ears and a tail.

[Sounsyy]

Ishgard is not Japan. There are plenty of Hyur in the country that aren't lowborn. They are still nobles, even if they're just not heads of the four main houses. The sidequests in there imply you can become a noble by slaying an important enough dragon (which is what a lot of the knights/"plain dragoons" are trying to do in W. Coerthas).

As far as the lore has been written to this point, nobility is defined by blood. Citizenship is not clearly defined, but probably involves birth, naturalization, and religion.

 

I think the distinction should be made that High Nobility is defined by blood. The Archbishop and the Four High Houses are blood descended from the first twelve knights.

 

Lesser Nobility is earned through noble deeds. Which is probably why Ishgard has so many dang Saints. Saint Daniffen, Saint Valeroyant, Saint Reinette, Saint Reymanaud, Saint Finnea... the list goes on.

 

The only way to gain the power of nobility is through a truly noble display of courage. There's one simple way to do that - slay a monstrous' date=' ancient dragon. There are some feats that cannot be ignored.[/quote']

 

...Disenfranchised nobles and their retainers' date=' penniless vagabonds and half-mad sellswords - aye, we're a contemptible lot of cads, bounders, and dragon stabbers. But we are all committed to the cause, may Saint Finnea watch over and keep us safe.[/quote']

[V'aleera]

To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.

You mean like how the entire 30-50 DRG job class story had absolutely zero to do with any dragoon save the formerly one, now two, special snowflakes? And that "inner dragon" stuff is almost exclusively stated in reference to the Azure Dragoon.

 

And now that I'm thinking about it, did the "Sanguine Dragoon" even use any of the magical abilities in the course of those quests?

[Oli!]

snip

 

 

To be honest, this seems to be just as speculative as anything else that's been stated in this thread.

 

Dravania is open territory, with more than one point of access. Anyone could have gotten in there, and Q'yantaa is not only heavily implied as being new to the camp in the quest text...

 

"Among many other facts, you learn that the prospect of a quick fortune brings many inexperienced hunters to Tailfeather in hopes of joining in on the lucrative chocobo hunting trade. He introduces you to Q'yantaa, a young Miqo'te who wishes to fill her pockets in the Dravanian forelands."

 

...She is also actually stated to be new to the area by Loupard, the head hunter:

 

"'Course, you can't forget those that're just here for a quick bucketful of gil--chasin' the gold chocobo, so to speak. The promise of riches brings new blood from all over Eorzea... Ain't that right, Q'yantaa?"

 

Additionally, just because there are miqo'te in Coerthas does not mean that they would be readily accepted in Ishgardian society, or that they are within that society at all. L'khonebb could have easily made their way into the city to work for the Ironworks installation there by Cid, or merely came after the gates opened. If someone snuck into Ishgard, regardless of their race, it's very unlikely that they would be taught an art considered to be the holy dragon-slaying ways of the Forefathers. We also have no idea when that Miqo'te snuck in, so I'm not convinced they're relevant to the point being made in the first place.

 

Also, no information has been provided on those other miqo'te but pictures. They could be anything as it stands; traders in the area, hired help, hunters, we don't actually know. Ishgard was still closed at that point, so I doubt that they were moving in and out if they weren't part of the culture already.

 

Culturally-speaking, even if a miqo'te family had been established there for generations, it seems more likely that they would be considered foreigners anyway because they have an appearance that does not match anything else seen in the country.

 

Lastly, assuming that things Could Be So seems a little shaky, because it opens up all sorts of directions that don't have much grounding; I think this is part of the reason why people are hesitant to accept speculation in general. It Could Be So that people can come from kingdoms not mentioned in the Lore, there's nothing there that states that those places don't exist. It Could Be So that your character could be an Allagan android in the shape of a hyur, the Lore doesn't explicitly state that that's impossible. It Could Be So that your character found and now has use of an Allagan spaceship, they built a moon after all.

 

So the problem arises that if we think about What Could Be So, we open up a whole boatload of other tangents ranging from the Actually Plausible to the Totally Ridiculous, and then the Lore can get even more messy than it already is. Choosing where the line stops when it comes to assumptions can become practically impossible, and that's just not something that a lot of people are willing to deal with. There's also the problem that anything that can be assumed to be one way, can easily be assumed to be the opposite, which leads us to the current position that we are in now.

 

I don't raise a fuss over that sort of thing if it comes up in RP, because I'll roll with it with minimal issue on a personal level. But for the sake of organized discussions such as this, where we're trying to forge a deeper understanding of the lore, a distinction regarding when the assumptions start and stop is important, because it forms the basis for further argumentation.

 

 

 

 

Also, that far east Miqo'te has a standard Eorzean name from the S-tribe. It's likely she's just a trader that does business with Domans, or sailors from that area.

[Flashhelix]

To just assume that Ratatoskr's blood, one of the biggest revelations in the HW MSQ, doesn't figure into the job class that are not only considered to be the symbol of Ishgard but also stated to have an "inner dragon" of sorts that is implied to be far more than metaphorical is pretty ridiculous.

You mean like how the entire 30-50 DRG job class story had absolutely zero to do with any dragoon save the formerly one, now two, special snowflakes? And that "inner dragon" stuff is almost exclusively stated in reference to the Azure Dragoon.

 

And now that I'm thinking about it, did the "Sanguine Dragoon" even use any of the magical abilities in the course of those quests?

 

Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon. The Azure Dragoon is still a dragoon, it's why he's not just called "The Azure." When he has an ability that no other dragoon can use it's pointed out, as in the case of the Dragonfire Dive.

[V'aleera]

And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

 

Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon.

The only relevant information we get from the 30-50 DRG quests all (or at least the vast majority) relates only to those dragoons who have access to the power of Nidhogg's Eye.

 

While that is certainly relevant to the general lore, it is not relevant to playing a dragoon in character who is not an Azure Dragoon.

[Flashhelix]

And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

 

Yes, the 30-50 DRG storyline where they tell you plenty of dragoon lore that shouldn't be discounted because you happen to be dealing with the head dragoon.

The only relevant information we get from the 30-50 DRG quests all (or at least the vast majority) relates only to those dragoons who have access to the power of Nidhogg's Eye.

 

We're told that the power of Nidhogg's eye empowers the Azure, that it calls Nidhogg to it, and that the power it gives allows the Azure to do things such as the Dragonfire Dive. The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this" simply because the storyline itself focuses on the Azure Dragoon. Not to mention that the soul crystal is something completely different from the Eye that still apparently allows the WoL to manifest an inner dragon, which either means it's something that is not exclusive to the Eye or that somehow the soulstone gained the Eye's power.

[V'aleera]

The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this"

So then your argument is that this gray area is perfectly acceptable to play into, but sparsely represented racial minorities are pushing the boundaries a bit too far?

[Lydia Lightfoot]

I'll share with you all the litmus test I use regarding culture-cism or racism in an MMO setting.

 

Do the NPCs, in their dialogue with you during quests and so forth, change said dialogue based on the metrics of your toon (besides simple nomenclature things like saying "that hyur" vs "that miqo'te")?

 

If they don't, then the atmosphere being presented in the game's live environment - irrelevant of not-spoken-by-an-NPC background lore snippets which may contradict it - is one of acceptance and equal opportunity.

[Flashhelix]

The specifics of most other dragoon abilities are far too vague to say "Only the Azure Dragoon can do this"

So then your argument is that this gray area is perfectly acceptable to play into, but sparsely represented racial minorities are pushing the boundaries a bit too far?

 

There is a difference between saying that a dragoon can have an ability mentioned in the context of the Azure Dragoon without anything mentioning that there is anything distinguishing the two besides the Eye and roleplaying a race of dragoon that we have literally never seen before or seen anything to suggest it can exist.

 

As stated before, people can do what they want, anything is technically "alright" (as there are very few instances where the game outright states X is impossible) but the issue is that many people don't put much effort into selling it, either because they don't want to bother or because they don't realize just how rare the character would be. How many miqo'te are there in the world? They're supposed to be a rare race. Of that rare race, how many would willingly choose to live in Ishgard, a cold region even before the calamity when they absolutely despise the cold? Of those, who has the skills to fell a full-fledged dragon? The implication of a miqo'te dragoon carries a lot more weight than people think, with what we've seen.

[Oli!]

And your explanation for the armored gatewardens in Ishgardian territory, Oli?

 

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

 

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

[V'aleera]

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

 

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

 

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

 

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

 

If I claim the belief that K'leytai is really just a shapeshifted dragon playing the long con, is that just as valid speculation too?

[Flashhelix]

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

 

Right, it's xenophobia rather than racism.

 

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

 

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

 

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

 

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

 

I'd say that "Ishgardian hired outsiders" and "Miqo'te Ishgardians" both have zero in-game details to support them, so they're equal in that respect.

[Oli!]

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

 

Any explanation for or against is speculation. Saying that they're integrated into Ishgardian society because they're a gatewarden is speculation. Saying that they're not and could be hired help or contracted or otherwise is also speculation.

 

Neither speculation is more valid than the other, so no one has an explanation for it.

I'm sorry, this is really rather silly. You're arguing that Ishgardians, long before their much more troubled times post Calamity, hired outsiders to guard almost all of Coerthas Western Highlands?

 

You're welcome to speculate that is the case, but you don't have any ground to stand on claiming that speculation is as equally supported as speculation that Ishgardian soldiers are guarding Ishgardian territory.

 

 

Perhaps I'm confused; how many gate guards that fit the bill are there? I thought we were talking about the picture of just the one.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

That's an interesting point, actually, and one that was touched on by another poster in an older version of this argument. The vast majority of Ishgardian NPCs you can speak to (especially in the ARR areas) will refer to you in a condescending manner. But they do not do this by citing your race, but rather by calling you either an "outsider", or in less common cases, "unbeliever".

 

Right, it's xenophobia rather than racism.

 

Which returns to the issue of whether or not things like being a dragoon should be limited to specific races, when the evidence in the game based on NPC treatment suggests that as long as the player has a plausible reason for their character to be a respected resident of Ishgard (not an outsider, in other words), their race shouldn't matter at all.

[Oli!]

If I claim the belief that K'leytai is really just a shapeshifted dragon playing the long con, is that just as valid speculation too?

 

 

Well, yes, if you're speculating openly, it is.

 

That's the danger of speculation that I was pointing out earlier on.