Unnecessary Speculation Thread on the Origins of Eorzean Races

[Mia Moui]

I was reading this article.

 

It's about a moratorium being placed on the development of partly human animals or chimera.  It occurred to me that perhaps something like this, the deliberate altering of genes might be what gave rise to the different races of Hydaelyn.  

 

The game makes it fairly clear that all of the player character races are genetically compatible, meaning they are essentially the same species.  It's hard to imagine how all of Hydaelyn's people came to be so different through a natural process and still remain genetically compatible.

 

Surely the technology existed at one point.  Some Hydaelyns were in space, on the moon and beyond in the past.  I've just been presuming that the various races came about because of magic or some other supernatural intervention.  It hadn't occurred to me that it might be something done deliberately long ago for reasons that have been lost to time.

 

The development of Chimeras would have to be a painstaking process and one strictly controlled.  But what it were not?  Wouldn't it be easier to create monsters? Carnivorous plants, semi-intelligent dust balls, violent gopher people, kangaroo people, giant crabs, and so forth.

 

It's not a knowable thing, so that's why it's unnecessary speculation.  That aside, what does your character think - if anything - about the origins of the races? And in addition, what does your character think of the semi-intelligent or semi-sentient creatures of Eorzea?

[FreelanceWizard]

So, there's some lore bits of interest here.

 

Primals and dravanians often refer to the PC races as the "Sons of Man." This is a common construction across all of them and other "antiquated language" NPCs.

 

We know the Allagans were capable of genetic engineering (according to Fernehalwes, that's how Xande, Amon, and others got to be so huge), cloning, and hybridization. Azys Lla, the Aetherochemical Research Facility, and the Fractal Continuum all have Allagan experiments in them, and the Continuum actually talks about how Allag created artificial voidsent, the predecessor race that degenerated into the Ixal, and so on.

 

So with that in mind... my totally speculative idea is that the other races are the result of genetic experimentation and augmentation by Allag.

 

As for L'yhta? She doesn't think much of it. It's one of the blind spots in her perception of the world; much like how she takes tides as a given and doesn't look into the why or how, she does the same with the different races of Eorzea.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Going on Freelance's ideas (because I'd be pretty interested in seeing if that's the case), I just have one issue.

 

The Miqo'te lore states that some Keepers of the Moon can trace their names back to the First Astral Era. But that predates the Allagans by a few calamities.

[111]

Good thread.

 

One thing that I think interesting about FFXIV is that it's not as much a Fantasy World, as a science fiction one. 

 

It's the successors to a great and powerful interstellar race growing up in the ashes of that world, and viewing technology as magic.

 

Having the races be engineered would seem pretty logical to me.

[FreelanceWizard]

The Miqo'te lore states that some Keepers of the Moon can trace their names back to the First Astral Era. But that predates the Allagans by a few calamities.

 

Drat, I forgot about that. Well, that blows a hole in the side of the idea, unless we're willing to accept that that's a commonly believed fact or developed prior to the recent Allagan revelations. On the one hand, the devs have done this before (the naming conventions were something of a retcon themselves, as 1.0 players will tell you, and some of the "unreliable narration" smells of retcons), but the on the other, I don't want to second-guess the lore as written.

 

XIV: It's Not Fantasy, It's Post-Apocalyptic Superhero Sci-Fi. I'm surely not the only person who's noticed genre similarities between XIV and Numenera, for instance?

 

EDIT: Ah, I reread the post on naming conventions, and it says: "It is said that some of these surnames have survived since the First Astral Era."

 

Curious.

[111]

The Miqo'te lore states that some Keepers of the Moon can trace their names back to the First Astral Era. But that predates the Allagans by a few calamities.

 

Drat, I forgot about that. Well, that blows a hole in the side of the idea, unless we're willing to accept that that's a commonly believed fact or developed prior to the recent Allagan revelations. On the one hand, the devs have done this before (the naming conventions were something of a retcon themselves, as 1.0 players will tell you, and some of the "unreliable narration" smells of retcons), but the on the other, I don't want to second-guess the lore as written.

 

XIV: It's Not Fantasy, It's Post-Apocalyptic Superhero Sci-Fi. I'm surely not the only person who's noticed genre similarities between XIV and Numenera, for instance?

I mean "Earth Lore" can trace names back to the "Start of the World" if you're a christian.

 

That doesn't mean it's true. 

 

Perhaps the moonkeeper lore is the same way? Just because they believe it's that old doesn't mean it's true.

[Mia Moui]

The Miqo'te lore states that some Keepers of the Moon can trace their names back to the First Astral Era. But that predates the Allagans by a few calamities.

 

Drat, I forgot about that. Well, that blows a hole in the side of the idea, unless we're willing to accept that that's a commonly believed fact or developed prior to the recent Allagan revelations. On the one hand, the devs have done this before (the naming conventions were something of a retcon themselves, as 1.0 players will tell you, and some of the "unreliable narration" smells of retcons), but the on the other, I don't want to second-guess the lore as written.

 

XIV: It's Not Fantasy, It's Post-Apocalyptic Superhero Sci-Fi. I'm surely not the only person who's noticed genre similarities between XIV and Numenera, for instance?

I mean "Earth Lore" can trace names back to the "Start of the World" if you're a christian.

 

That doesn't mean it's true. 

 

Perhaps the moonkeeper lore is the same way? Just because they believe it's that old doesn't mean it's true.

 

I agree.

 

And there may be a history that no one remembers or that there's little evidence for. If there was a civilization hundreds of thousands or millions of years before, there'd be next to no sign of it.

[FreelanceWizard]

I mean "Earth Lore" can trace names back to the "Start of the World" if you're a christian.

 

That doesn't mean it's true. 

 

Perhaps the moonkeeper lore is the same way? Just because they believe it's that old doesn't mean it's true.

 

Particularly given the exact phrasing I added in my edit while you were posting, that seems plausible. Sure, "it is said" that they go back that far, but do they really? We've seen huge historical events from prior eras be lost, misconstrued, or actively covered up -- even relatively recent ones -- and we also know the average level of knowledge of Eorzeans is pretty low.

[Kage]

The Miqo'te lore states that some Keepers of the Moon can trace their names back to the First Astral Era. But that predates the Allagans by a few calamities.

 

Drat, I forgot about that. Well, that blows a hole in the side of the idea, unless we're willing to accept that that's a commonly believed fact or developed prior to the recent Allagan revelations. On the one hand, the devs have done this before (the naming conventions were something of a retcon themselves, as 1.0 players will tell you, and some of the "unreliable narration" smells of retcons), but the on the other, I don't want to second-guess the lore as written.

 

XIV: It's Not Fantasy, It's Post-Apocalyptic Superhero Sci-Fi. I'm surely not the only person who's noticed genre similarities between XIV and Numenera, for instance?

 

EDIT: Ah, I reread the post on naming conventions, and it says: "It is said that some of these surnames have survived since the First Astral Era."

 

Curious.

 

It's the speculation of some heavy lore types *cough*Anonymoose*cough* that if it says stuff like "It is said" that you have to treat it as word of mouth in the game, which means that it can be faulty. His words "It's canon misinformation - an SE-sanctioned lie told to you from the point of view of as far as Eorzeans know and the Elezen claim. The lore team for FFXIV saw that many games contain books, NPCs, and system interactions that imply this impossible omniscience about the game's world, and they didn't want Eorzea to be like that. Sometimes a revelation is meant to clear up an unknown and help you understand, sometimes you're getting a false prophet telling you what's apparent to them at the time."

 

Some stuff similar to that train of thought here.

 

Sometimes I wish I was on Excalibur to pick Anonymoose's brains. Or hyperion *whispers*Sounsyy*

[allgivenover]

Picking apart the wording further...

 

It states the NAMES can be traced back that far, not Keepers specifically.

 

The five races being Allagan created has been my favorite pet theory since I first set foot in Second Coil and saw all the chimera and lamia they'd obviously been tinkering with.

 

I didn't really give it any weight until the Iksalion blurb though.

 

Actually there are six races now (artificial voidsent == Au Ra?)

[Sounsyy]

It occurred to me that perhaps something like this, the deliberate altering of genes might be what gave rise to the different races of Hydaelyn.  

 

I mean...

 

Unlike anything else on Erozea, compound #123 is thought to be another of the Allagan Empire's failed chimeric creations. The creature seems to be harmless enough, feeding only on the tiny water lice which inhabit Azys Lla's aetherochemical pools. Its outer hide, however, has given many a naturalist pause as it bears a texture almost identical to that of a Lalafell's skin.

 

Among the first successful efforts in synthesizing a voidsent. Void Research remains an emerging field' date=' with future developments holding great promise.[/quote']

 

A highly intelligent construct employed by allagan engineers to perform maintenance tasks. Notable flaws include a weakness against the elements and certain genetic instabilities.

 

Quarantine Block

This floating islet in a lonely corner of Azys Lla served as an isolation area for chimerical creations which failed to meet established safety parameters. Historical records indicate that the facility began its life as a research center for advanced agricultural crossbreeding.

 

The list goes on, so its certainly possible.

 

As far as the Miqo'te discussion goes, while its possible that Allag mutated and altered the species into a cat crossbreed, Miqo'te were once populous upon the southern continent of Meracydia, which defended against Allag for almost its entire 1,000 year history. While POWs, like Phlegethon, were very likely used for experimentation purposes (as well as hunting and target practice) we're talking a small portion of a population being altered and then subsequently being hunted for sport or obliterated during the Earthquake.

 

Wouldn't the larger population of native Miqo'te on Meracydia, who survived the atrocities of Allag be the ones who carried on the species? Especially considering we have lore now stating the Miqo'te left Meracydia during the 5th Umbral Era, 2000 years later and that's how the tribes we know today came to be in Eorzea. So, while an interesting theory, it doesn't quite add up. It's not like the Iksalions who were created by the Allagans and then introduced to the wild. Miqo'te pre-dated the Allagans and only a small fraction of them at best could've been mutated.

 

 

Remember to come back again to... ...next week's target... ...and three Miqo'te...

 

It is believed the Miqo'te first came to Eorzea during the Fifth Umbral Era' date=' fleeing their ravaged homeland on the southern continent of Meracydia.[/quote']

 

Despite convincing research by top academics from around the realm and beyond' date=' most Miqo'te scholars refuse to believe that there may be some ancestral connection between their race and cats (fat or not).[/quote']

 

Adored though he was' date=' the revolutionary leader was eventually captured by agents of the empire. Scholarly records give a chilling account of how his body was forcibly altered through sorcery and science, his mind broken and conditioned to obey. An example was made of Phlegethon, a hideous warning of the fate that awaited those who refused to kneel.[/quote']

[FreelanceWizard]

As far as the Miqo'te discussion goes, while its possible that Allag mutated and altered the species into a cat crossbreed, Miqo'te were once populous upon the southern continent of Meracydia, which defended against Allag for almost its entire 1,000 year history. While POWs, like Phlegethon, were very likely used for experimentation purposes (as well as hunting and target practice) we're talking a small portion of a population being altered and then subsequently being hunted for sport or obliterated during the Earthquake.

 

Wouldn't the larger population of native Miqo'te on Meracydia, who survived the atrocities of Allag be the ones who carried on the species? Especially considering we have lore now stating the Miqo'te left Meracydia during the 5th Umbral Era, 2000 years later and that's how the tribes we know today came to be in Eorzea. So, while an interesting theory, it doesn't quite add up. It's not like the Iksalions who were created by the Allagans and then introduced to the wild. Miqo'te pre-dated the Allagans and only a small fraction of them at best could've been mutated.

 

Do you know of any lore suggesting the miqo'te were in Meracydia during the time of Allag? We know that it was largely a dravanian country/continent during the time of Allag, based on what Tiamat talks to us about in Azys Lla. They came over in the 5th Umbral Era, yes, but they could have been there between the 3rd Astral and then, as opposed to being natives of Meracydia. I'm thinking of a situation where Allag constructed the miqo'te during the height of their power -- perhaps as something Allagan people did to themselves for augmentation, or perhaps to build a race of slaves -- and some of them were in Meracydia after it was conquered. When the Empire fell, they were the race that survived there (I'm thinking of the ground dwellers in Chrono Trigger, by analogue). Absent the Empire and other influences, they formed a culture and ultimately lost their history to the ravages of time.

 

Of course, that all falls apart if we have evidence that miqo'te were on Meracydia during the time of Allag. The implication I read in Azys Lla is that the continent was populated by dravanians only, but I may have missed something!

[Kage]

Remember to come back again to... ...next week's target... ...and three Miqo'te...

I'm not sure what point this is used this for, for miqo'te presence or race over all. The node uses whatever the player's race is. So for me, It said three Lalafell.

[LiadansWhisper]

Do you know of any lore suggesting the miqo'te were in Meracydia during the time of Allag? We know that it was largely a dravanian country/continent during the time of Allag, based on what Tiamat talks to us about in Azys Lla. They came over in the 5th Umbral Era, yes, but they could have been there between the 3rd Astral and then, as opposed to being natives of Meracydia. I'm thinking of a situation where Allag constructed the miqo'te during the height of their power -- perhaps as something Allagan people did to themselves for augmentation, or perhaps to build a race of slaves -- and some of them were in Meracydia after it was conquered. When the Empire fell, they were the race that survived there (I'm thinking of the ground dwellers in Chrono Trigger, by analogue). Absent the Empire and other influences, they formed a culture and ultimately lost their history to the ravages of time.

 

Of course, that all falls apart if we have evidence that miqo'te were on Meracydia during the time of Allag. The implication I read in Azys Lla is that the continent was populated by dravanians only, but I may have missed something!

 

I've heard this theory before.

[Dat Oni]

Do you know of any lore suggesting the miqo'te were in Meracydia during the time of Allag? We know that it was largely a dravanian country/continent during the time of Allag, based on what Tiamat talks to us about in Azys Lla. They came over in the 5th Umbral Era, yes, but they could have been there between the 3rd Astral and then, as opposed to being natives of Meracydia. I'm thinking of a situation where Allag constructed the miqo'te during the height of their power -- perhaps as something Allagan people did to themselves for augmentation, or perhaps to build a race of slaves -- and some of them were in Meracydia after it was conquered. When the Empire fell, they were the race that survived there (I'm thinking of the ground dwellers in Chrono Trigger, by analogue). Absent the Empire and other influences, they formed a culture and ultimately lost their history to the ravages of time.

 

Of course, that all falls apart if we have evidence that miqo'te were on Meracydia during the time of Allag. The implication I read in Azys Lla is that the continent was populated by dravanians only, but I may have missed something!

 

I've heard this theory before.

 

It wouldn't surprise me, but at the same time, I'm sure at some point we would have seen the progenitors of modern day Miqo'te somewhere on Azys Lla if this theory were true. Allag didn't really use its genetic alterations for much more than warfare and extending lives, and the Miqo'te are mortal and highly advanced considering.

[LiadansWhisper]

It wouldn't surprise me' date=' but at the same time, I'm sure at some point we would have seen the progenitors of modern day Miqo'te [i']somewhere[/i] on Azys Lla if this theory were true. Allag didn't really use its genetic alterations for much more than warfare and extending lives, and the Miqo'te are mortal and highly advanced considering.

 

It's possible it predated Asys Lla, or post-dates the point at which they stopped using the facility. It's also possible (and, to my mind, very likely) that they had multiple facilities of similar type. Putting all your eggs in one basket is foolish at best.

[Sounsyy]

Of course, that all falls apart if we have evidence that miqo'te were on Meracydia during the time of Allag. The implication I read in Azys Lla is that the continent was populated by dravanians only, but I may have missed something!

 

There's no strict connection placing Miqo'te firmly within Meracydia at the time of Allag, so I yield that the theory is plausible, however I still hold that the theory feels off and far too convoluted for me personally to get behind. Suppose the Allagans did genetically create Miqo'te, which is a possibility, why then is 90-100% of the Miqo'te population found on Meracydia thereafter and not in Eorzea or elsewhere, lands that Allag had actually fully conquered during their supremacy? Why aren't there Miqo'te in Azys Lla? Even the Mannequins are Hyuran.

 

At best, we can place the cat-like Miqo'te race firmly existing by the latter 100-200 years of the Allag Empire. G'raha Tia's Miqo'te ancestor, was an aide to the last princess of Allag, Salina.

 

Their heartfelt pleas reach the last remaining princess of Allag. She took it upon herself to see their prayers realized' date=' and entrusted her blood to her most trusted aide.[/quote']

 

So if the Allagans created the Miqo'te to serve them, again, how did a significant, sustainable population end up in Meracydia? They weren't used as soldiers - late Allag did not use living, breathing armies. Their only flesh and blood soldiers were their generals, who were mostly Summoners.

 

See the myriad marvels of Allagan military technology that have replaced flesh-and-blood soldiers' date=' ensuring that no Allagan citizen need ever again lay down their life in battle.[/quote']

 

If Sons of Saint Coinach anthropogeographer Rammbroes is to be believed, towards the end of their civilization, the Allagans began using automatons such as this to fight their wars (which had been deemed inhumane, yet ultimately necessary to spread imperial peace).

 

This snippet suggests, but does not confirm Miqo'te nativity to Meracydia.

It is believed the Miqo'te first came to Eorzea during the Fifth Umbral Era' date=' fleeing their ravaged homeland on the southern continent of Meracydia.[/quote']

 

Sure, could this have just become their "homeland" after somehow venturing here after the fall of Allag? Of course, but it just seems like a bit of a stretch that, again, an entire population was moved to a far away continent after the scant few genetic creations bonded together and set off for a new home far far across the southern seas to the land of Allag's enemies who would probably murder any Allag abomination that came within sight.

 

As opposed to: Miqo'te inhabited Meracydia at the time, and when Allag waged their war on the southern kingdom, Miqo'te were captured and like the dragons and other prisoners of war that Allag took, were spliced and mutated and experimented on and left to rot after the fall or were stuck in a museum somewhere for the Allagans to pat themselves on the back. Much more simplistic and something that we see repeatedly already in the game.

 

But if you want a sketchy theory on the Allagans waging war on the early Meracydian Miqo'te, I'd recommend reading this theory on Azys Lla's cathedral and aquaduct.

 

 

 

 

Remember to come back again to... ...next week's target... ...and three Miqo'te...

I'm not sure what point this is used this for, for miqo'te presence or race over all. The node uses whatever the player's race is. So for me, It said three Lalafell.

 

I was not aware it reflected the players race, so that's interesting. Why... hunt... all the races...? Miqo'te hunting would at least make sense supposing they were in fact from Meracydia. Merp, anyways.

[FreelanceWizard]

Of course, that all falls apart if we have evidence that miqo'te were on Meracydia during the time of Allag. The implication I read in Azys Lla is that the continent was populated by dravanians only, but I may have missed something!

 

There's no strict connection placing Miqo'te firmly within Meracydia at the time of Allag, so I yield that the theory is plausible, however I still hold that the theory feels off and far too convoluted for me personally to get behind. Suppose the Allagans did genetically create Miqo'te, which is a possibility, why then is 90-100% of the Miqo'te population found on Meracydia thereafter and not in Eorzea or elsewhere, lands that Allag had actually fully conquered during their supremacy? Why aren't there Miqo'te in Azys Lla? Even the Mannequins are Hyuran.

 

At best, we can place the cat-like Miqo'te race firmly existing by the latter 100-200 years of the Allag Empire. G'raha Tia's Miqo'te ancestor, was an aide to the last princess of Allag, Salina.

 

Their heartfelt pleas reach the last remaining princess of Allag. She took it upon herself to see their prayers realized' date=' and entrusted her blood to her most trusted aide.[/quote']

 

So if the Allagans created the Miqo'te to serve them, again, how did a significant, sustainable population end up in Meracydia? They weren't used as soldiers - late Allag did not use living, breathing armies. Their only flesh and blood soldiers were their generals, who were mostly Summoners.

 

I personally don't think they created them as living weapons or servants, like the ixalion. I'm thinking more that they were just a genetic modification on the basic hyur template, used for appearance or augmentation purposes. Amon's an example of Allag engaging in genetic engineering for augmentation; I can see a society that's described a lot like Solaris from Xenogears doing all kinds of weird stuff.

 

A further interesting question, though, is if miqo'te were on Meracydia around the time of Allag and the dravanians, why do neither of them mention them at all?

 

Though in either case, the easiest explanation is that the devs haven't brought it into the story space and haven't fixed it in stone yet!

[Mia Moui]

I'm not sure that if you wanted to create soldiers or some other subservient race, that you'd begin with a hybrid of Hyur and cats.  Cats, in my experience, are remarkably useless as guard animals.

 

I don't really have an opinion, it's just something I was thinking about.  But as to why someone might create the Miqo'te, how many people might elect to become a real life neko in our world were it possible?  Probably enough to create a new race, imo.  If genetic modification were fashionable at some point there's all kinds of things that might happen.  I'm alarmed that it might actually be a possibility.

 

I'm not saying that anything like that happened, or that I'd even RP it.  I'm just interested in what the lore says about the origins of the various races (at level 29, I've barely scratched the surface).

 

As far as what Mia Moui thinks or believes, Menphina and her sister wanted to make loyal subjects and created the Miqo'te.  Done and done.

[Jana]

I don't remember which live letter/event/interview it was, but I feel pretty certain that the theory revolving around the aqueduct in Azys La was already disproven. I'll try to remember where I read it though.

[V'aleera]

A further interesting question, though, is if miqo'te were on Meracydia around the time of Allag and the dravanians, why do neither of them mention them at all?

 

The simplest answer would be that they were considered too insignificant to mention. The Allagans had bigger things on their plate, and dragons have never paid much attention to mortals.

[Momo]

This is shaky at best, but I had never questioned unmentioned Race origins to come out of the Allagan Empire, simply on the origin story of the Gods and of Hydaelyn and the Eorzean region.  It is stated that the Warring Races drove out the gods in disgust from our Realm, and that to me says that there were certainly more than Hyur, or Hyur and Elezen to start with.  There is something that we are missing in all of the origins of each race, and that is the the start of life and magic on the Planet of Hydaelyn itself.  It seems to state that the Eorzean region (or maybe some sort of Pangaea-esque land) , consisting of more than one continent, was once the origin of both life and magic in all the world, and that perhaps, and I take this from the example of the Dragon race itself, races fanned out at one point, traveling to different parts of the world before eventually creating their own civilizations and coming back to Eorzea, perhaps after some Calamity drove them out?

 

As I said, this is all theory, but it makes sense to me, that if all races and magic started in Eorzea, per the creation tales, that whatever event caused their creation and then whatever event caused the separation, are things both connected, and points to which we are eventually coming -to- in the MSQ at some time.  Not even to mention or get into the fact that if the world that we now call "Hydaelyn" itself, was once simply a well-placed planet which was barren of life, and a cross-universe traveling mass soul such as Hydaelyn chose to possess, her soul and aether kept centrally inside the Mothercrystal housed in a base dimension of the planet which then: gave rise to Gods, whether that power was taken (>.>) or otherwise, the Elementals, the Warring Races, and which called forth Midgard from space with her vast amounts of power...well as I said, not even getting into that...because I have lots lots more to go with that...lots and lots...or Hydaelyn the cross-dimensional traveler...nope not going there...