discussion Balmung Rp: Worshiping the Twelve

[The Black Healer]

Hello fellow rp-ers! I would like to get your thoughts and ideas and ANY lore you loremasters have out there!

 

I know the game states that there isn't a lot known about the Twelve and other gods but there are clearly places of worship to them around Eorzea. Even places like in Ishgard where there is a lectern...clearly a place where speeches and possibly sermons are given. Or perhaps a lot of funerals due to the war. That could be a possibility too.

 

What I am interested in is making a functional congregation of people who worship their different gods....but it's done in a communal setting. We would have the higher ranks that would get together and discuss what the talks should be about before scheduled sermons...there could be groups that go out on missions to assist willing rp-ers in healing or battle using their faith as their power. (ie macros depending on who they serve). We would be here to spread peace and the word of gods/goddess' they serve. The idea of specialty branches could be there too. As in hunting specific types of beings that would cause harm to the earth or those that prey upon the living. 

 

As far as ceremonies, there could be either weekly or bi-weekly sermons to help educate and teach others about the gods and use each of their abilities as a life lesson. Perhaps hymns can be created and "sung", chants and the like. We could write passages, small works of literature, poetry (of course by the higher ranks who can read and write) to be read and shared among others. I could see this being very lucrative creatively and I would love to get feedback and ideas on it. Do ask questions if you have them!

[Valence]

It's an interesting idea, but keep in mind that while most eorzeans believe in the Twelve, most of them and especially their own cultures actually revere a single or two gods they dedicate their lives to. 

 

For example, Nald and Thal for Ul'dans, Nophica for Gridanians, Lymlaen for lominsans, Azeyma for Seekers of the Sun, Menphina for Keepers of the Moon, Rhalgr for Ala-mighans, Thaliak for Sharlayans, Halone the Fury for Ishgardians, etc. And then also for jobs and guilds, like Nymeia for the weavers and Nophica for the botanists, Oschon for adventurers, among others. Probably Byregot for a lot of smithing professions too.

 

It would ideally mean that you are trying something rather ambitious and universalist here. Which is interesting in its own right.

 

You might find a bit more detailed info there

[The Black Healer]

It's an interesting idea, but keep in mind that while most eorzeans believe in the Twelve, most of them and especially their own cultures actually revere a single or two gods they dedicate their lives to.

 

It would ideally mean that you are trying something rather ambitious and universalist here. Which is interesting in its own right.

You might find a bit more detailed info there

 

Indeed! It is ambitious...and it may be a bit more difficult to be received as a result for the reasons you have stated. But with the way that things in Uldah, Ishgard and a few other places are changing and opening up (tentatively of course) it could leave room for something like this to pop up. Something that asks to bring more people together and be united for a stronger, peaceful Eorzea.

 

Also, thank you very much for the lore reference and info! This is exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.

[Kaniko Niko]

Juuuuust to clarify: Nald and Thal are the same being—Nald'thal. He also uses singular pronouns despite His title being a plural—The Traders.

[Melkire]

Juuuuust to clarify: Nald and Thal are the same being—Nald'thal. He also uses singular pronouns despite His title being a plural—The Traders.

 

Nald'thal, as written, is considered the "single manifestation of deific twins". When referring to Nald'thal, the Traders, singular pronouns are used because the two units are taken as a whole.

 

But then we also have Nald and Thal in use regularly by Eorzean denizens to refer to the twins individually. Nald is associated with the mercantile and commercial aspects of the deity, whereas Thal is more commonly associated with death and the underworld. They each have their own statues dedicated to them, even, in Southern Thanalan and Eastern Thanalan, respectively: Nald's Reflection and Thal's Respite. The first depicts Nald holding an urn of some kind, and the second depicts Thal with a rather wicked curved blade (whether it's a sword or a stylized dagger is unclear).

[Kilieit]

I don't really have much useful to add, but if something like this goes ahead I think it'd be interesting for Aghurlal to attend. He's not Eorzean and doesn't know very much about the Twelve, but he's curious to know more, if not necessarily to commit.

 

Translating religious texts into Doman is something that might make sense for an organisation like this to undertake, since there's obviously quite a few immigrants from Othard around at the moment!

 

I'd also point you towards looking into the organisations of the Halonic Orthodox Church, which has a very heavy hand in Ishgard's government at the time we're introduced to them; and the Order of Nald'thal, who play a moderately large role in Ul'dah's societal structure. There's also the stuff King Theodoric did to Ala Mhigo - forcing them to worship Nymeia, the Spinner instead of Rhalgr, the Destroyer because Rhalgr is allegedly subservient to Nymeia.

 

Other than that... A few times NPCs in the ARM/BSM quest say you must have been blessed by Byregot; the sayings "Spinner's pull be kind" (good luck) and "The Spinner gives and the Wanderer takes away"; flavour texts from items like the Navigator's Daggers/Navigator's Brand...

 

And why is there so much Oschon iconography near Nym, anyway? Didn't figure that one out myself, yet.

 

I'm afraid I don't have much more to point you towards other than vague names and concepts, but I guess it's stuff to look into!

[The Black Healer]

 

Translating religious texts into Doman is something that might make sense for an organisation like this to undertake, since there's obviously quite a few immigrants from Othard around at the moment!

 

I'd also point you towards looking into the organisations of the Halonic Orthodox Church, which has a very heavy hand in Ishgard's government at the time we're introduced to them; and the Order of Nald'thal, who play a moderately large role in Ul'dah's societal structure. There's also the stuff King Theodoric did to Ala Mhigo - forcing them to worship Nymeia, the Spinner instead of Rhalgr, the Destroyer because Rhalgr is allegedly subservient to Nymeia.

 

Ah! Now translating texts into Doman...very good suggestion! I'm sure there would be domans that wouldn't mind helping  that could join the church. They do seem to worship outside of the twelve unless I'm mistaken? Not that we would turn them away because universalism is exactly what we would be going for. But I do wish there was more information on who they worshiped but...I would at least guess and say there was ancestor worship of some form since it's based off of Japanese culture. Perhaps even a form of Shinto or Buddhism.

[Valence]

The Au'ri actually worship 2 main divinities they believe to be directly descended from. The xaela worship the Dusk Mother and the raen worship the Dawn Father.

[The Black Healer]

The Au'ri actually worship 2 main divinities they believe to be directly descended from. The xaela worship the Dusk Mother and the raen worship the Dawn Father.

 

Whoop! Right, you're very correct! Still, there does seem to be some flavor within that discussed among a few others of the community. Someone even wondered is Shiva was considered the Dusk Mother but I don't know what we have to prove a speculation like that...personally. But it's an interesting thought. 

 

As far as Au Ra beliefs, there are tasty tidbits here for thought that I found for review/thought:

 

 http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=14642

[Virella]

There's also the stuff King Theodoric did to Ala Mhigo - forcing them to worship Nymeia, the Spinner instead of Rhalgr, the Destroyer because Rhalgr is allegedly subservient to Nymeia.

/ Slams fist onto table

 

Nymeia is the wife to Rhalgr according to Ala Mhigans.

 

I guess... things vary a bit here and there according to which culture of Eorzea you ask?

 

Anyhow! On topic, giving my input for the Rhalgr nonsense of the Twelve.

 

If the 60 MNK quest is anything to go of, the Fist worship Rhaglr with ... I will just quote the NPC

 

Hrahatia

Hmph, cowards like you bring shame upon our order. Plainly, it is you who needs to be reminded of our true nature.

Hrahatia

The arduous training to hone mind and body, the blood we spill and shed─all of it is for no other purpose but to honor the Destroyer.

Hrahatia

We pay Him great tribute by dueling to the death. And in return, He grants us great power: the power of all fourteen chakra.

 

 

http://xivdb.com/quest/67567/Appetite+For+Destruction

 

Mind you this is the 'old way' of Rhalgr praising, the new one of friendship is magic being very new. It is probably safe to say Ala Mhigans and Rhalgr worshippers still live with such nonsense.

 

"All new beginnings requires the total destruction. The destruction is the beginning."  - is another thing people who praise Rhalgr seem to adhere to.

 

Whereas I could see ceremonies happening to a degree, I think you can do super interesting stuff with Rhalgr worshipping.

[Kilieit]

Don't forget about Azim and Nhama, worshipped by some specific Xaela tribes - Azim being a sun god and Nhama being a moon god. Confirmed by the devs to be separate deities from Azeyma and Nymeia/Menphina, despite the similarity in name/dominion.

 

I think the Raen who are integrated with Doman society probably worship kami? I have a vague recollection of that being mentioned in the NIN storyline as being a Thing but i didn't get very far/pay very much attention, whoops. Maybe someone who did can lend a word.

 

Either way, definitely no worship of the Twelve from over there.

[The Black Healer]

 

If the 60 MNK quest is anything to go of, the Fist worship Rhaglr with ... I will just quote the NPC

 

Hrahatia

Hmph, cowards like you bring shame upon our order. Plainly, it is you who needs to be reminded of our true nature.

Hrahatia

The arduous training to hone mind and body, the blood we spill and shed─all of it is for no other purpose but to honor the Destroyer.

Hrahatia

We pay Him great tribute by dueling to the death. And in return, He grants us great power: the power of all fourteen chakra.

 

 

http://xivdb.com/quest/67567/Appetite+For+Destruction

 

Mind you this is the 'old way' of Rhalgr praising, the new one of friendship is magic being very new. It is probably safe to say Ala Mhigans and Rhalgr worshippers still live with such nonsense.

 

"All new beginnings requires the total destruction. The destruction is the beginning."  - is another thing people who praise Rhalgr seem to adhere to.

 

Whereas I could see ceremonies happening to a degree, I think you can do super interesting stuff with Rhalgr worshipping.

 

Very telling! This give me ideas on possible sermons and talks. I would love to have a discussion with a traditional Rhalgr worshiper but likely neo-Rhalgrs would feel more comfortable with the universal church. Although destruction is recognized to be a part of life and at some points necessary to protect!

 

Kilieit

____________________________________________________________________________

Don't forget about Azim and Nhama, worshipped by some specific Xaela tribes - Azim being a sun god and Nhama being a moon god. Confirmed by the devs to be separate deities from Azeyma and Nymeia/Menphina, despite the similarity in name/dominion.

 

Ah, now I didn't know about that. Where did you get that info if you don't mind me asking?

[Kilieit]

I don't remember which interview the dev comments were from, but the god names are from the Race Naming Conventions thread:

 

The Kagon are a nocturnal desert tribe who worship Nhama, goddess of the moon and mortal enemy of Azim, goddess of the sun. Instructed by their goddess that to step into the sun is to succumb to the evil of Azim, they spend the daylight hours in their tents, only emerging to hunt and migrate at night. The result is an uncharacteristically pale skin for a group of people living in an almost eternally fair-weather locale.

 

All members of the Oronir tribe believe themselves to be direct descendants of Azim, the tribe's goddess of the sun.

[Virella]

Very telling! This give me ideas on possible sermons and talks. I would love to have a discussion with a traditional Rhalgr worshiper but likely neo-Rhalgrs would feel more comfortable with the universal church. Although destruction is recognized to be a part of life and at some points necessary to protect!

o7 Hit me up ingame, it is me who you are looking for (for traditional Rhalgr worshipping. On Avelyn Firestone that is).

 

Destruction and beginning cycles are very Eorzean actually, seeming they reset their calender everytime it happens

 

But yeah hit me up ingame o7 I be AFK for a little while longer while taking care of some real life stuff

[The Black Healer]

I don't remember which interview the dev comments were from, but the god names are from the Race Naming Conventions thread:

 

The Kagon are a nocturnal desert tribe who worship Nhama, goddess of the moon and mortal enemy of Azim, goddess of the sun. Instructed by their goddess that to step into the sun is to succumb to the evil of Azim, they spend the daylight hours in their tents, only emerging to hunt and migrate at night. The result is an uncharacteristically pale skin for a group of people living in an almost eternally fair-weather locale.

 

All members of the Oronir tribe believe themselves to be direct descendants of Azim, the tribe's goddess of the sun.

 

 

Ahh, I see! Please do post anything else you've noticed...this certainly expands the view! I'll have to ask others about this too. There are tribes that need to be known!

 

o7 Hit me up ingame, it is me who you are looking for (for traditional Rhalgr worshipping. On Avelyn Firestone that is).

 

Excellent! I'll be contacting you on Sizha'to as he will be the one creating this. He has a church room set up in our FC house to be used when things take off. I'll need more people to talk to like you. I'm eating at the moment but I'll add your character!

[Valence]

Whoop! Right, you're very correct! Still, there does seem to be some flavor within that discussed among a few others of the community. Someone even wondered is Shiva was considered the Dusk Mother but I don't know what we have to prove a speculation like that...personally. But it's an interesting thought. 

 

Shiva being considered the Dusk Mother sounds a bit hazardous to me. Shiva is Dravanian/Landlords figure that got turned into the epitome of heresy for centuries in the society of Ishgard. They even go to the point saying a few times in the MSQ that not everybody is even aware of her considering how taboo and repressed and censored she actually was in most ishgardian books and stories.

 

In any case, I have a hard time seeing how she could have reached Othard somehow.

 

 

The lore quotes from Oboro brought up by Sounssy in the post you linked is interesting in itself. It seems indeed to point at something very similar to shintoism where Domans would revere an equivalent of kami (japanese spirits akin to elementals).

[The Black Healer]

Shiva being considered the Dusk Mother sounds a bit hazardous to me. Shiva is Dravanian/Landlords figure that got turned into the epitome of heresy for centuries in the society of Ishgard. They even go to the point saying a few times in the MSQ that not everybody is even aware of her considering how taboo and repressed and censored she actually was in most ishgardian books and stories.

 

In any case, I have a hard time seeing how she could have reached Othard somehow.

 

Mmm, I agree with those points. Too many holes in it to work lore wise but it would be an interesting viewpoint outside of lore if one were to make a story of it.

 

The lore quotes from Oboro brought up by Sounssy in the post you linked is interesting in itself. It seems indeed to point at something very similar to shintoism where Domans would revere an equivalent of kami (japanese spirits akin to elementals).

 

Yes, I was very happy to see I wasn't the only one who thought there was a possible thread to it. How exciting! Especially since elementals exist (and sprites), Shintoism could possibly look like conjurers do in Eorzea. Imagine if doman priests were like shinto priests? I would love to see a concept like that! I would personally question if ancestor worship could have a form of power too...calling upon their power to fuel yours...sort of like channeling from yourself but through your....bloodline or ancestors spirits?

[Valence]

Well, the only two cases I can refer to in lore for ancestors empowering somebody are soulstones, which are memories, experiences and testimony from the people that wore it before, and the case of A-Towa Cant coming back in the form of a ghost (that can even interact with the world around), but that second case seems pretty much linked to the WhM soulstone in the first place so... Yeah. Soulstones.

 

And that thing with Louisoix in the last Coils..

 

Doesn't mean it's the only way to do it though. But as far as I know there is nothing else in the lore currently existing for that purpose.

 

Then of course you have all the more creepy ways like bringing back your loved one from the dead in twisted voidsent personas and the likes, and then making them possess you and whatnot, but I doubt that's really empowering by ancestors proper.

[LiadansWhisper]

Communing with the dead, in general, seems to lead to Very Bad Things in the gameworld.

[The Black Healer]

Communing with the dead, in general, seems to lead to Very Bad Things in the gameworld.

 

Very true...but keep in mind this would be more honoring the dead and receiving something like a blessing from them. Certainly not trying to bring them back to the land of the living. That becomes...another matter entirely and often goes very very very...VERY...wrong. Spread the word Liadan!! It must never happen!!

 

Well, the only two cases I can refer to in lore for ancestors empowering somebody are soulstones, which are memories, experiences and testimony from the people that wore it before, and the case of A-Towa Cant coming back in the form of a ghost (that can even interact with the world around), but that second case seems pretty much linked to the WhM soulstone in the first place so... Yeah. Soulstones.

 

You also raise a very good point. Which actually brings me to a burning question....Hydaelyn. Do Eorzeans know about her? Is she worshiped like the other gods? Or is it fewer and far between that they have even heard of her? Because soulstones...are pretty much what they sound like. Soul. Stones. And that concept is fascinating in and of itself. The power that it gives and the context of it in general.

[Kilieit]

Hydaelyn is weird, because when you mention her all the (major lore) NPCs speak about her in, like, hushed whispers. Gasp! You saw the Mothercrystal! So on the one hand: they recognised her from your description (a towering crystal that spoke), so obviously her existence is A Thing to non-Echo users. But on the other hand that doesn't tell us anything about how well known her existence is or if she's worshipped as a god, at all.

 

I do think that it's fairly evident that even if she is worshipped, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn (and before them, I'm guessing, the Path of the Twelve) are her most forefront worshippers. I mean, she's not as much of a practical god as the others. You pray to Thaliak to make wise decisions, Nophica for a bountiful harvest of materials, Byregot to craft your wares well, Llymlaen to navigate the sea safely, Oschon to do the same for the land, Nald'thal to have fruitful trades once you're there, and Menphina to ensure you have a loving spouse to come home to after all of it. You can even - less tangibly - pray to Althyk for a good long future, Nymeia for luck, Rhalgr for the destruction of your enemies, and Azeyma or Halone for revenge or protection...

 

What's left to pray to the Mothercrystal for?

[The Black Healer]

Hydaelyn is weird, because when you mention her all the (major lore) NPCs speak about her in, like, hushed whispers. Gasp! You saw the Mothercrystal! So on the one hand: they recognised her from your description (a towering crystal that spoke), so obviously her existence is A Thing to non-Echo users. But on the other hand that doesn't tell us anything about how well known her existence is or if she's worshipped as a god, at all.

 

Very true. It's never really talked about out in the world that I've seen even though the world is named AFTER her. Some sort of reverence must be given to her for that to be true but it's sort of a grey area.

 

I do think that it's fairly evident that even if she is worshipped, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn (and before them, I'm guessing, the Path of the Twelve) are her mostforefront worshippers. 

 

Mmm...this brings me to something else. Most rp-ers that follow lore don't use the echo or mention it because of A) it being OP, B) being too close to meta/easy to meta and C) they consider the lore of the echo in itself to be too faulty and kind of god status..which is a big no no. Therefore, besides her being there since time began (? Maybe we should thank Althyk for that ?) and seeming to be the counter balance between the darkness that exists (i.e Zodiark).....and...ok, perhaps holding the world together in general...which makes me wonder if she supplies the world with aether? I mean, she IS a giant crystal...and when the BLMs and WHMs were fighting, it was draining the world and her of energy and nearly killed her....correct me if I'm wrong but now I'm starting to wonder....

 

What's left to pray to the Mothercrystal for?

 

I might assume she'd be another catch all god(dess) like Halone is to the Ishgardians. She could be revered as the mother god(dess) or the god(dess) of the light, earth mother, things like that. Perhaps.

[Melkire]

Actually, most NPCs refer to Hydaelyn as the name of the world.

 

The Scions are among a select few (e.g. the Ascians, the primals, and Midgardsormr) who seem aware that there's an intellect behind said world. The Echo -- or the Blessing of Light -- seems to be the sole means by which one becomes aware of her. After all, the Scions aren't running around singing Hydaelyn's praises in any sort of paradoxical contradiction to the Twelve (save to the leaders of the city-states). It's only once the Warrior of Light recounts his experience that Minfilia and the other Scions go out of their way to explain who and what Hydaelyn is.

 

...of course, I could be entirely wrong. It's been a long time since I paid attention to the 2.0 MSQ text.

[Kilieit]

Oh one more thing: "may you walk in the light of the Crystal" is a greeting that gets thrown around sometimes; but, again, by fairly major lore NPCs. I'm looking at Minfilia, the Circle of Knowing, the city-state leaders, and Momodi/Miounne. All people who are either directly involved with or have solid reason to know about the Scions.

 

Even if "The Mothercrystal" is known about, I think it's unlikely she'd be given the name "Hydaelyn" by many...

[LiadansWhisper]

Very true...but keep in mind this would be more honoring the dead and receiving something like a blessing from them. Certainly not trying to bring them back to the land of the living. That becomes...another matter entirely and often goes very very very...VERY...wrong. Spread the word Liadan!! It must never happen!!

 

The problem is, that's not how death and dying really works in Eorzea. The dead pass on, and there's nothing left behind of the actual person in most cases. So asking for a blessing from them is like asking thin air - there's nothing there to bless you...

 

I mean, unless you get really unlucky and attract a voidsent. But then, would you really call that a blessing?