discussion [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners

[Gegenji]

I get what you mean, Edvyn, don't worry. :lol:

 

As I mentioned, a good portion of this is my own innate need for validation on my ideas. Even if it's ultimately a moot point since I can choose who I RP with and thus only include those willing to accept that Gogon is able to trance Alexander due to whatever crackpot explanation I put together. The rest is me trying to validate myself - making sure there's nothing in the lore that explicitly says "YOU CANNOT DO THIS" that I might've missed from my comprehension of the events.

 

So, a discussion thread like this helps me find out the stuff that supports the idea, what stuff detracts from it (and thus know what I might have to "explain" should people raise those questions), and get at least a sort of feeling how various groups might react to the idea. Basically seeing how many doors may close from this idea being put out there, and how quickly. Though, despite all this pussyfooting around, this is a plot point that may only come up in self-written story (once the spoiler timer is over, unless I flag the post itself as spoilery) or in dire straits in RP. So, it could very well just be self-afflicted paranoia. :blush:

[Killerwing]

I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

 

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

 

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

 

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

 

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

 

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

[Gegenji]

I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

 

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

 

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

 

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

 

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

 

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

 

That's an interesting way to look at it. Is it mentioned anywhere that multiples of the same Primal can't be summoned at the same time? Or is it merely a situation of no one actually trying it yet? I mean, thinking back on it, it kind of makes sense since there's been no multiple instances of any of the other Primals - they're always re-summoned after they're gone.

 

Still, that's an explanation for why no one after he sealed himself away in time. Anyone who encountered him prior to that point would have been able to attune to his aether. Hence why my ideas involving having fought alongside the WoL or being present at the "two" outward manifestations of its power (travel from present to past and back). If one has managed that in a manner contextually similar to what happened with Bahamut's aether, I would figure one would be able to Trance him.

[Warren Castille]

It's not a seal if he's not sealed.

 

Question edit: Does that really matter for a Trance, though? I was under the impression Trance drew on residual energies to make things happen. If it's not that and you just needed to get dosed by it to work, then there'd reasonably be a "time limit" lockout sort of deal for anyone prior to 3.4 to have experienced it.

 

I didn't do SMN quests, so I don't know these things: Is it enough to just get splashed by aether or do you have to knowingly manipulate it at the time?

[Dat Oni]

It's not a seal if he's not sealed.

 

Question edit: Does that really matter for a Trance, though? I was under the impression Trance drew on residual energies to make things happen. If it's not that and you just needed to get dosed by it to work, then there'd reasonably be a "time limit" lockout sort of deal for anyone prior to 3.4 to have experienced it.

 

I didn't do SMN quests, so I don't know these things: Is it enough to just get splashed by aether or do you have to knowingly manipulate it at the time?

 

The Dreadwyrm Trance called upon the aether that Bahamut bathed Carteneau. You just have to be at a place bombarded by the energies of the Primal itself.

 

The site where Alexander manipulated time would probably work.

[Aaron]

Wouldn't Alexander be too strong though? I mean, the power that thing possessed imo surpasses anything Bahamut could do.

[Gegenji]

Bahamut and Alexander being so powerful are WHY you would need to Trance them. They're too powerful to try to manifest as Egis... so instead you tap into the attuned aether generated using Aetherflow stacks (I like to kinda read it as taking in the extra aether to "convert" into the Trance energy, hence the Dreadwyrm stacks) to manifest a fraction of their power for a short time.

 

And just because you could Trance Alexander doesn't mean you'd suddenly get time-manipulation abilities. As mentioned, I'd probably just have it be his own death laser. Or, if there was any time-shenanigans... it'd be in the form of Haste/Slow effects and not actual time travel.

[Aaron]

Huh, thought trance was just converting the egi into you like absorption or whatever.

 

I'm all for death lasers

[Valence]

Anything above Garuda is too powerful to manifest as egi for common mortals. It's clearly said in lore and quests that Ramuh and Leviathan (who are still basic beast tribe primals), are already too powerful for even the WoL and current Sharlayan knowledge to summon their egi forms.

 

As I said above, lore doesn't say it's not possible to summone those egi (or even the egi of eikons way more powerful like the Warring Triad, probably Bahamut or Alex too). Lore just say it's too powerful even for the WoL.

 

Honestly, make of it what you will.

 

I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

 

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

 

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

 

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

 

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

 

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

 

You can perfectly have been present at the rares places in time when he wasn't sealed away. Like when he gets summoned for the first time, for example. Or if you are a time traveler (or a millenia old dude), be present when he gets back long ago in time and releases Mide and her beloved.

 

I am one of those people that made a lot of use of Trance out in RPs as a Summoner, with pretty much all the ARR primals(except Odin), and I've been one of those that did a lot of Trance at Runestone. I have sometimes thought about how many of the other primals coul;d maybe be drawn as Trances.

 

But to me, Alexander is simply beyond us. We can't use him as Trance, much less as an Egi and for a very simple reason.

 

Alexander SEALED itself in time.

 

Meaning: Alexander isolated itself in such a fashion that you can no longer reach him in any possible manner.

 

Yes, we can still see Alexander out in the Dravanian Hinterlands, but if you look at the bubble, everything(water included) is frozen in time. Nothing goes in or out anymore.

 

Therefore to me, Alexander is a primal that can no longer be summoned. Simply because he's already summoned(meaning you can't summon a copy) and Summoners can't draw on his Egi or Trance with him because there's no Alexander aether to attune to.

 

That's an interesting way to look at it. Is it mentioned anywhere that multiples of the same Primal can't be summoned at the same time? Or is it merely a situation of no one actually trying it yet? I mean, thinking back on it, it kind of makes sense since there's been no multiple instances of any of the other Primals - they're always re-summoned after they're gone.

 

Still, that's an explanation for why no one after he sealed himself away in time. Anyone who encountered him prior to that point would have been able to attune to his aether. Hence why my ideas involving having fought alongside the WoL or being present at the "two" outward manifestations of its power (travel from present to past and back). If one has managed that in a manner contextually similar to what happened with Bahamut's aether, I would figure one would be able to Trance him.

 

Yeah Primals can't be summoned in duplicates, even if they have unique personalities tied to the summoning.

 

Trancing however, doesn't necessitate for a primal to be dead or not active, as far as I know.

[Yssen]

^ This. It is part of why the Alagans sealed Bahamut and the Warring Triad in machines. To prevent the Mericydians from using those primals against them.

[Dat Oni]

Bahamut and Alexander being so powerful are WHY you would need to Trance them. They're too powerful to try to manifest as Egis... so instead you tap into the attuned aether generated using Aetherflow stacks (I like to kinda read it as taking in the extra aether to "convert" into the Trance energy, hence the Dreadwyrm stacks) to manifest a fraction of their power for a short time.

 

And just because you could Trance Alexander doesn't mean you'd suddenly get time-manipulation abilities. As mentioned, I'd probably just have it be his own death laser. Or, if there was any time-shenanigans... it'd be in the form of Haste/Slow effects and not actual time travel.

 

Doesn't mean people can't attempt time travel with the Trance, potentially with unexpected side effects. It lends itself to interesting scenarios.

[Kellach Woods]

And just because you could Trance Alexander doesn't mean you'd suddenly get time-manipulation abilities. As mentioned, I'd probably just have it be his own death laser. Or, if there was any time-shenanigans... it'd be in the form of Haste/Slow effects and not actual time travel.

 

It'd definitely be Divine Judgement - Same way as you get Deathflare (even though that should be Megaflare) using Bahamut.

 

Trancepurge skills seem much closer to the original summon's mainstay attack.

[Warren Castille]

So another thought came to me about this:

 

Alexander can see infinite possibilities. He's seen, more or less, every possible timeline ever, across all of Eorzea. If we take the cutscene at face value and use that as fact, that would mean that being able to channel him as an egi is not only something he was aware of, but something he permitted.

 

You'd be RPing as someone chosen by an omnipotent god to harness their power, because he has the power to make that not so.

 

Alternatively, we're simply in one of the millions of timelines where Alexander DOES pick you, but that then brings the "chosen one" caveats that trump even WoL in terms of can/cannot do.

 

Now just watch, when in 4.0 Alex becomes the new tank pet and all of this speculation is for naught.

 

Just as Alexander knew it would be.

[Gegenji]

Except he did all the calculations according to the plot and he decided the best option for himself was to effectively do nothing and remove itself from play rather than affect the timeline - and that would theoretically include not changing who was in/around Alex during its existence and actions. The only motions it made to affect the timeline was to avoid breaking reality due to a not maintaining a closed time loop... and making it so the Illuminati wouldn't succeed through gentle nudgings of a clockwork cat - an action to ensure that the Warrior of Light would win. So it's less that he chose the timeline where X character gains the ability to summon them and more that he's putting his faith in the Warrior of Light because they are the Specialest Snowflake.

 

Everything else would be secondary, I would figure. Besides, it is outright stated that the Warrior of Light is SO special that Alex can't see beyond a certain point in time because of him. Because the Warrior of Light is so amazing and unpredictable and unfathomable.

[Warren Castille]

That makes sense. It'd mean that Alexander foresaw all possibilities and decided the one where people usurp his leftovers for whatever things they do as acceptable. That's the nature of infinity, though: Alexander looked at Gogonji using that power to do everything and went "Yep, worth it to not get involved." Every good thing, every bad thing.

[Gegenji]

That makes sense. It'd mean that Alexander foresaw all possibilities and decided the one where people usurp his leftovers for whatever things they do as acceptable. That's the nature of infinity, though: Alexander looked at Gogonji using that power to do everything and went "Yep, worth it to not get involved." Every good thing, every bad thing.

Well, to be more precise he wouldn't have considered it because the lore-writers weren't thinking about if/how people would want to try summoning Egis of him or Trancing him from an RP standpoint. There's a lot of things they haven't thought about because RPers by nature put a lot of thought into random little tidbits the lore team might not even consider. Hence why Lore discussion threads like this pop up, where people discuss the feasibility of what can and cannot be done.

 

... And technically, as mentioned earlier, he couldn't see all possibilities. Warrior of Light amaze-o-glow keeps him from seeing into the future. He just knew any timeline that exists where he is allowed to remain manifest as a Primal and manipulate the timeline to create a "perfect future" will result in ruin because his existence directly conflicts with his goals. In creating a perfect future, he destroys said future due to the aether he'd drain in the process - killing the planet and creating a dead future.

 

... But yes, apparently Alex's biggest computational failing was not erasing Gogon from existence.

[Warren Castille]

That's not what I'm saying specifically, but you brought it up.

 

The thing with "infinite possibilities" is that it includes infinity, which also includes RP player lore and concepts. So either we run with what the game says, or we caveat in "but they didn't do these things with us in mind" at which point ALL lore becomes optional, since none of what SE adds to the story is done with roleplayers in mind (except the RP tag). It's large-scale "My character has approval from a named NPC" in this case, since Alexander would have foreseen ANY roleplayer wanting to use him, and to acknowledge infinity and use it anyway is to imply that you're within acceptable parameters to a god's leftover essence.

 

So either Alexander sealed himself away so he wouldn't interfere with space/time, or he left juuuuust enough of his power out there for people to use his power to interfere with space/time.

[Gegenji]

Well, "what the game says" is uncertain because at no point does the player character seek to try and replicate a variant of the Dreadwyrm Trance with Alexander. Or any of the other Primals we know are weaker and far more frequent - like any of the Beast Tribe gods, which were mainly overlooked according to the SMN questline because Bahamut was just the "best option." Go big or go home. So at no point does the game straight up say it cannot happen - no more than it says it can happen, hence the point of this thread.

 

And we're also implying that gaining access to Alexander's power in Egi/Trance form would even give the ability to manipulate space-time. Or at least to enough degree that history could be altered. If there was any passing of time-manipulation powers to the Summoner, I would postulate it would be vastly, vastly inferior to Alexander's - just like the equivalent abilities for any of the other egis and the Dreadwyrm Trance. To the point that actual time travel would be an impossibility. At best you'd have the equivalent of Haste/Slow/Stop effects, all of which already exist in some format in the game (granted, by enemies). If I did give Gogon the ability to Trance Alex - something I haven't decided upon yet, mind, just musing about in my melon - he would have the Judgment Laser or whatever that giant laser blast is... which isn't time-affecting at all.

 

So since that power couldn't be used to alter the timeline anyway, it might be counterproductive to go and ensure that the possibility to Trance/Egi him could never happen. As bathing in his aether would be a requirement for this, he would have basically had to have completely undone his own existence from the start - since the Warrior of Light (and their companions) fought and overcame an aspect of him just like any other Primal. So any of them could have the possibility to summon or Trance him ([insert joke about summoning Alex in 4.0 here]). Which means he would've left that possibility open in his view of infinite possibilities rather than completely write himself out of existence... and, don't forget, he still ends up going back in time to produce the ancestors of the Hotgo at some point - so he isn't completely gone. He himself (or new full summonings of himself) cannot be used, as he stasised himself like the Alagan did to the Warring Triad.

 

... Which I guess leaves me wondering if one could summon/Trance the Warring Triad when they're in stasis. I mean, wasn't the development of Summoning specifically to turn the power of the Eikons against their enemies? But I digress.

 

However, you do still make a very solid point that he was actively nudging events into ensuring his power couldn't be used. It could very well extend to egis and Trancing as well as the full power under his possession to alter time. In addition, there's nothing saying that the time jump would affect anyone beyond those directly on his being at the time of the jump... and he knew through infinite wisdom that none of those who entered his form would gain the ability to utilize his essence as an egi or Trance. And those that might've were kept away through machinations by a little mechanical cat or something.

 

So, again, something that one could decently argue either way on. Since we don't know if being near the time warp was enough washing of aether to allow for Trancing... or if it was if Alex would have done anything to prevent such a thing from occurring. Maybe Biggs and Wedge are destined to summon Alex Egis in the future!

[Warren Castille]

Yeah, you make plenty of valid reasoning as to why it's plausible, I just like acting as a foil to people. This is a known thing!

 

If Sophia is any indication, being in stasis doesn't seem to be that much of a problem (though I think her seal was failing?) She enthralls someone to undo the locks on her henchmen despite being put under still, but I don't think that's the norm (Azys Lla got covered in plants on the way up to Seph's debut, too).

 

There's plenty of room to argue both directions. Lore grey area discussions are a flat circle, ultimately.

[Gegenji]

Yeah, you make plenty of valid reasoning as to why it's plausible, I just like acting as a foil to people. This is a known thing!

Well, I made this thread for reason why I might NOT be able to have Gogon do it just as much reasons why he might. So being a foil helps! It brings up things I might overlook - either consciously or unconsciously - that lean in either direction.

 

And yeah. Sophia's wards had a backdoor in them as part of a plot via sympathizers amongst the Allagan. They were just found out and killed before they could actually use it to wake her up deep behind enemy lines. However, something tripped them - it's implied that it was a clumsy Garlean but even the heroes aren't completely buying that - and released the Demiurges.

 

I just wonder if the Allagan were trancing Sephy or summoning little Seph-Egis before or after his confinement, for example. Or were they just kept held and only really used as training simulations as the Allagan worked towards creating more Dalamunds? Current summoners would have a much more difficult time explaining having Trances/Egis of Sephy and Sophia than any of the others too... considering the only time they were available were Allagan times and the brief window when the WoL beat them up.

[Kellach Woods]

Now just watch, when in 4.0 Alex becomes the new tank pet and all of this speculation is for naught.

 

Just as Alexander knew it would be.

 

Why do you think I said watch next expac?

 

Honestly, I find that the trances are closer to what I expect out of a FF summon, so if the skills for Summoner went that way I'd be much happier.

[Momo]

Yeah, you make plenty of valid reasoning as to why it's plausible, I just like acting as a foil to people. This is a known thing!

Well, I made this thread for reason why I might NOT be able to have Gogon do it just as much reasons why he might. So being a foil helps! It brings up things I might overlook - either consciously or unconsciously - that lean in either direction.

 

And yeah. Sophia's wards had a backdoor in them as part of a plot via sympathizers amongst the Allagan. They were just found out and killed before they could actually use it to wake her up deep behind enemy lines. However, something tripped them - it's implied that it was a clumsy Garlean but even the heroes aren't completely buying that - and released the Demiurges.

 

I just wonder if the Allagan were trancing Sephy or summoning little Seph-Egis before or after his confinement, for example. Or were they just kept held and only really used as training simulations as the Allagan worked towards creating more Dalamunds? Current summoners would have a much more difficult time explaining having Trances/Egis of Sephy and Sophia than any of the others too... considering the only time they were available were Allagan times and the brief window when the WoL beat them up.

 

Few things,

 

~Alexander outwardly and inwardly affects the flow of aether with its body and core. Y'shtola sort of sees this as the flow of time and space are reversed back and forth while observing Alexander's actions.

 

~Depending on the timeline you follow with your character, or where you feel comfortable going back to retcon/add, it is possible that your character could have come in contact with Alexander's aether or abilities.

 

~If during Alexander's past existence, your character came in contact, or was in some way touched with the aetherial charge from Alexander, whether outside or inside of him, I think it would have been possible that your character might have attuned to it, and may not have even known. (as we know with Bahamut's trance, in which the WoL has attuned, but feels no different afterwards, until a moment of great need, causes the trance to take effect)

 

~If you personal aetherial self or "soul" was tainted or attuned even unknowingly by the residual aether, it is possible, that in the event that Alexander has erased itself, that aetherial change within may not have been altered. Sort of hard to explain, but I believe we have instances of the aetherial self remaining untouched by outside forces at the deepest levels, because of the existence of the self and the consciousness.

 

~Time and Space magic, are not outside the realm of ability, even in the case of Non-WoL, as I believe that Astrologians are time/space mages even if in the lesser sense? Ultimately, I would either use this attunement as a major part of your character from here on out, and limiting the ability of the trance to clear and concise points which can or cannot be affected to make it more believable. 

 

All that being said, I wouldn't personally play this hand, but the more willing to bend the lore, the more willing you would be to go with this idea. I don't think there is anything wrong with it, if made into a big plot point, being well threaded into your character's existence, and largely limiting the use and ability of it.