discussion [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners

Gegenji · September 28, 2016

I've been waffling over mentioning this for a little bit since I cleared A12 last night. Considering this thread is being posted, I think it's pretty obvious what conclusion I came to. This is heavily dependent on the end of the Alexander quest chain and the cutscenes that follow, hence the spoiler tags.

Anyway, it's not an uncommon thing - at least, not that uncommon at the Runestone where I see most of my magical combat - to see people playing Summoners who can summon and/or trance Primals other than the Big Three and Bahamut. And to varying levels of detail and power creep. Some can only summon the one special Primal Egi - Shoshopu's Leviathan-Egi is a good example of this. Others can summon and trance the whole set - having Titan out as they trance Shiva before switching to a Moggle Mog Egi for combat reasons that escape me. Point is, there's some degree of precedence of RPers accessing Primals beyond Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan.

I've avoided doing much of that myself (even though I "cheated" Gogon into having his Three via absorbing the soul energy of prior Summoners from his Soul Crystal... long story) mostly due to not feeling giving Gogon those abilities really added anything or fit his character beyond "must have all the power." Anyway, as I learned more about Alexander itself and how it was very heavily focused on knowledge and predicting the future (later to be shown through time travel for the Illuminati and Alexander itself apparently existing enough out of time to look at past, present, and future simultaneously and both witness and compute infinite possibilities)... I kinda ended up thinking he was a very fitting Primal for Gogon. This was mentioned back in one of the Prompt threads of which Primal you figure your character would serve if they were Tempered or something similar like that. Anyway, I started musing on the idea of Gogon somehow tapping into Alexander's power.

Now, before the pitchforks come out, the first thing that came to mind that Alexander is way too powerful for there to be an Alexander Egi since even Ramuh was canonically considered too strong for the Warrior of Light - though that's personal belief on the matter and I'm not going to openly refute someone who summons up a tiny castle-mech at the Runestone if they really want to. In fact, I would put the sort of power he had (and the fact he was drawing aether from all over the planet with the horn) roughly in line of Bahamut. Which gave me an alternative solution - trancing. Before I learned about the time travel, I had ideas of Gogon bathing in Alexander's aether when it was ultimately defeated and gaining the ability to trance the robot to fire a giant mecha laser instead of a giant dragon one. A simple re-flavoring of an existing ability, realy.

Then the ending cutscenes happened. Alexander decides to "erase" itself from existence since its own presence defies the reason it was summoned - it cannot create a perfect timeline because its own aether-draining nature will result in causing destruction and ruin. And it does this by effectively stasis-locking itself in a time-bubble for all eternity. Or something. Needless to say, this means that the stolen aether - aspected into what is needed to summon/trance a Primal - is forever locked out of time and is inaccessible.

Which kinda put a damper on my idea.

So it leads me to this thought: folks (like myself) may still want to access Alexander for RP stuff like this. I'm just curious about ways to go about it ICly that might make some manner of sense given the outcome. I suppose being IN Alexander for some or all the fights would suffice - the defeated mechanical enemies and such likely suffused with Alexander's aether - but that also entails being with the Warrior of Light on his delves or at the very least part of Biggs and Wedge's investigations (and yes, I'm aware it's odd to be iffy of that approach when I'm musing over how to ICly gain access to the abilities of a giant, time-traveling mecha-deity). Perhaps just being in Alexander's presence while it was active might be enough - since it wasn't actively tempering things near it (or inadvertently tempering like Goddess apparently does in her little quest) - perhaps in that brief moment the shield is down and it's exposed in its full glory outside the barrier? Or perhaps, even though it's in temporal stasis, it is still technically existing (though it is neither draining nor consuming aether in this state, I'd assuming) and thus just being around it even after the fact could be enough to gather enough "residual aether" to allow Summoners access to its abilities.

Or, conversely, would Alexander be considered "unsummonable/untranceable"? Dreadwyrm Trance required bathing the the residual aether of Bahamut after he was basically exploded, and that never happened to Alexander. And the only time Alexander itself was technically "defeated" was during the fight with the Prime in A12 - thus relegating access only to those who were with the Warrior of Light in that final battle. Or am I just thinking way too hard on this and either should just do what I want using whatever logical-sounding explanation I come up with... or, opposite, just drop the idea because re-flavoring Dreadwyrm Trance is a silly idea?

Thoughts? Theories? Opinions?

***Nero*** · September 28, 2016

In terms of summoning, I think Alexander is a little bit too much of a stretch, given the circumstances you just described. I don't think summoning an Egi of him would be possible without some seriously weird insertions.

That said, if you really wanted to stick with the idea then I see no reason why a particularly judicious summoner wouldn't be able to combine arcanima with magitek to build a construct of sorts...bonus points if any of the goblins of Idyllshire managed some kind of salvage or some such (Did they? You think if there was anything they could unscrew they'd have nabbed it).

So I think Alexander the Primal is a no-go, off the top of my head. Something artificial made in Alexander's image might be a more workable solution.

Gegenji · September 28, 2016

What about trancing, though? I definitely figure Alexander-Egi is right out, but he seems to be on similar levels for a Dreadwyrm Trance-esque ability. This may or may not because I love the concept of a giant death-laser in the SMN repertoire, but I kinda want to take a different angle on it - and giant robo-laser seems like a good way to do it. Again, though, it falls in the same foibles as just normal Alex-Egi summoning, I think? I mentioned it all in that huge wall there, I think.

***Nero*** · September 28, 2016

You'd need a direct source of Alexander's aether for that, regardless of whether the primal is alive or dead. Bahamut left his aether all over Carteneau from his Megaflare, for example, which is where Dreadwyrm Trance comes from.

I admit I haven't read the quest text for Alexander too closely (Mide....snoooooore) but I don't think Alexander actually expends or expresses any aether outside of itself. All of its aether would have to be sourced from inside it, either the creatures it generates or residue from its attacks.

Aegir · September 28, 2016

[align=center][/align]

Gegenji · September 29, 2016

... Not making me want one any less.

But yeah, Nero's basically hit the nail on the head for why it seems we can't be able to trance Alexander. At least, not with having gone into Alexander and/or aiding in the destruction of its constructs. Unless...

It'd have to be finicky timing (pun intended, as you will see) but... what if someone was around when Alexander activated its ability and went back in time to the events that started everything? That is Alexander's using its power on reality itself - wouldn't that be an outward expression of its aether? Or any other time that its temporal abilities are used? It's technically affecting all of reality at those points - would that suffuse the nearby area of the time warp with its aether?

Basically, how much aether does there need to be for someone to be able to summon an Egi or gain access to trancing? I might have to go back over the SMN quest lines about this. See if there's ways this could happen in contrast to the evidence available right now that basically says it can't.

Warren Castille · September 29, 2016

Time traveling paradox. Person went back in time to prevent self from never existing, therefor never existed to go back in time and erase existing, therefor exists and thereby went back in time to prevent itself from existing.

No Fun Allowed says no, Alexander didn't leave aether behind because Alexander doesn't exist.

Fun Allowed says that some people had to have resisted the reality-wave that comes with rewriting reality.

Aaron · September 29, 2016

If you run into those lore hungry people be prepared for them to go out of their way for seemingly no reason IC and OOC to make you justify why you CAN do it,

Only for them to erase it from their character interactions and never bother talking about it again.

Dat Oni · September 29, 2016

Pretty much. I'll have my reasons for why my character will be able to do this, and I hope it's good enough for the lore-hounds.

AlionLucada · September 29, 2016

You make it sound like wanting to stay within the bounds of the lore is a bad thing. I never got why people felt the need to tie their characters to important lore figures or give them powers on par with people/jobs that are supposed to be legends or extremely rare.

It's safer and more interesting to play something original that fits the established lore than try to find ways to bend it to justify your character having X ability.

Gegenji · September 29, 2016

You say he doesn't exist... but he's still there in a giant time bubble in the Thaliak River. He did go back in time to effectively cause the events that lead to what happened... but that Codex still existed prior to his jump back. He just maintained a closed loop - nudged a little towards the result he decided on with the help of a small friend.

AND the two that went in with him end up going back in time and becoming the Hotgo precursors - so he has to exist for that to occur. Alex just... kinda took itself out of the equation regarding its actual purpose: creating the perfect timeline. So you can argue your No Fun Allowed angle pretty strongly just with the very facts that have me stumped on whether or not you could get the aether required to create an Egi or Trance him.

And my idea wasn't so much that he resisted the reality-wave distortion as being close enough to be washed in the aether released when it was done. A sort of right place, right time situation. Which is obviously a bit sketchy, but it seems more... "fair"?... in comparison to Gogon delving into the machine with the Warrior of Light.

And if it helps, Alion, I'm mostly musing on this possible link because Alexander has for a while struck me as the Primal most "fitting" for Gogon. And since he has some manner of Summoning ability, being able to Trance him seemed a fun way to do it. The fact that he could ICly fire a giant laser if pushed into a corner is just an added benefit (and seems a more appropriate "manifestation" of the trancing rather than, you know, time manipulation - though a slight slowing/heavy effect added to spells cast while using it or an increase in casting speed might not be unheard of). And not something he would openly flaunt - as trump cards lose their effectiveness if people know about it.

Also, I just have a horrible habit of overthinking things and trying to make my ideas fit into the lore as much as possible. Not to mention this sort of thought project could be fun for anyone else who wants to try to explain their Summoning abilities.

Aaron · September 29, 2016

No I'm talking about those people who don't actually care about the person's characters but only initiate roleplay with a person just to question them about why they can do X or Y and hope they find something to point out.

They happen more often than you think. I'm just pointing out if he goes for the Alexander idea he will encounter them.

Aegir · September 29, 2016

Just do what you think is fun. It's a game, the point is to have fun. Meeting someone with an Alexander summon/Alexander-egi seems fun to me.

Although you know this is what would happen if you had one:

[align=center][/align]

Kellach Woods · September 29, 2016

I'd personally say having the sheer power to overwrite reality like Alex did would definitely leave trace residuals enough to Trance, but anyone seeking to Trance Alexander would need the following pre-requisites:

1) Be aware Alexander existed in the first place. (Obviously)

2) Have sufficient Summoning knowledge to know of Trance. (Again, obviously)

3) Have the ability to identify and sift through "Alexander" tainted aether.

And even then, that's just to have a chance at possibly learning how to Trance Alexander.

You'd have a better chance to cast Enkidu-Egi than that.

Actually, wait, no. You'd have a better chance of Trancing the Warring Triad AT THE SAME TIME than Trancing Alex.

At least until the next expansion where we find out the rewriting of reality Alex did also means that every summoner can do it because technically every summoner was touched with the reality-warp.

AlionLucada · September 29, 2016

I've never seen this happen, not even once. Now if you're including anyone whose character doesn't immediately buy into the fact that your character can do things that they really shouldn't be able to in the confines of the lore, that's entirely different and something you need to get used to.

Aaron · September 29, 2016

You don't see it probably because the person doing it to you obviously isn't going to give hints that's what they're doing. I only know it happens because people have flat out acknowledged they've done it before. It'd ruin the entire point if just anyone knew they were doing it.

There's a difference between legit having an interest in the justification to mayhap help said person, and doing it for shits and giggles to tell your other friends

Gegenji · September 29, 2016

Oddly enough, those aren't really hefty requirements if you think about it.

#1: Anyone who has been through the Hinterlands has probably seen the kinda-really-big robot in a shield taking up a large portion of the Thaliak River. Gogon himself has been way back when Alex was still in its first stages - on an IC delve of Gubal Library. Several others have done similar delves, or even just visited Idyllshire... so it's not without reason that they might've seen the Primal and gone "Well, what's all this then?"

#2: A bit trickier, but I mentioned that there's a lot of Trancing going on at the Runestone. Taking any of that in character, the reasons for how said people gained the traits, would provide knowledge of Trancing. That notwithstanding, there's enough character cleaving more closely to the events of the SMN quest line that interacting with a couple of them could again provide the necessary knowledge. Gogon, for example, is a hoarder of knowledge and has a particular interest in Arcanima since it's the one type of magic he can do. He has had at least three people provide him information on Trancing - and two give a demonstration (Bahamut and Ramuh respectively) - even before witnessing those who do it all the time at the Runestone.

#3: This one is a good sticking point, though. Recognizing the aether - especially if the time warping diffuses it across all of Hydaelyn (or even the universe - you're changing TIME, after all) - could be horrendously difficult. It could be spread so thin that it's effectively nonexistent. Identifying it and taking in enough of it to allow for the manifestation of an Egi or for Tracing would likely be nigh impossible... if you weren't at ground zero. I would postulate that the tainted aether would be at its thickest and most identifiable near the site of the time flux. So, if you were near the Thaliak River when the time loop was fulfilled... you're probably in a good spot to take in that tainted aether. Otherwise the only other time you could submerse yourself in it is during the battles inside Alexander itself.

Kellach Woods · September 29, 2016

Honestly that's why I wrote them out as pre-reqs. Doesn't mean you'll get to do it if you do.

But again, I'm expecting all that speculation goes out the window once second xpac hits.

Dat Oni · September 29, 2016

I've seen it happen. Hell, its happened to me, my friends, and their friends.

Consider yourself lucky, because those kinds of people are annoying as hell to deal with, and they do not like to let up.

Gegenji · September 29, 2016

Completely understandable, and at its core... a large portion of this discussion is trying to at least reasonably explain the whole idea in a way that seems reasonable to others - and, to some degree, convincing myself. Heck, my responses to your pre-reqs were basically my way of making excuses for why Gogon "should" be able do it at their core. Of course, ultimately that "do what you think is fun" bit holds quite true... but it's a bit of a personal preference to try and have that reasonable explanation to provide (potentially through a story post or something) that ultimately doesn't impose too harshly on the head-canons of the people I may end up RPing with.

Which would hopefully help avoid the types of situations being mentioned in the thread's side-conversation on the matter. I had a... "fun" situation very early on where I had a person ICly and OOCly berate me for trying to play a Lalafell from Doma. Having something that I could point to as evidence - provided by our wonderful Sounsyy - helped a bunch with that. So, I kinda like having a reasonable explanation for anything that might raise some manner of question.

... Though, technically, my "reasonings" could mean any other number of Summoners somehow place themselves at the Hinterlands at the point of time travel could potentially gain access to doing such things as well. Which, as you stated, could be a whole situation of them just being "pre-reqs." For all we know, the same "requirements" to access and use the Codex would also be applied to those seeking to use an Alex-Egi or Trance it.

Aaron · September 29, 2016

Alexander's entire existence reminds me of cosmic strings.

Look it up, interesting read, hell you might be able to even use that to help you.

Valence · September 29, 2016

I personally tend to think that there is very little that strictly goes against lore. Want to play a White Mage? Sure you can. It will certainly put you far ahead in the special snowflake ranking, but sure you can. You can always find a reason for it to work. Maybe you are an heir of Amdapori lineage and padjals/elementals don't know about you? Maybe you went through those dirty means to obtain Succor through what the lore team seemed to tease us with?

And then you can say pretty much the same thing with most jobs, a black mage stumbling on a gem of Shattoto (How rare are those? Are they even many or just a single one?). Down to the more mundane jobs and soulstones really. It's just a matter of how "special" you want to be. Most jobs are already special in themselves. A soulstone is special. Some more than others. I mean, even a summoner (which is already damn special), playing with a Ramuh-egi, or a Leviathan-egi, or even an egi from the super powerful Warring Triad, is not stricly against lore. It just puts you directly above the WoL, is all.

So I believe that yes, you can perfectly find explanations (stretched or less stretched) on how you can tap into Alexander's taint and use it as a trance. And so, like we have seen in those countless thread about "is it ok if I play a WhM?", the answer is always the same: do what you like, just be aware that it can close doors with many players.

To me it's not exactly rocket science why it seems to only happen to the people resorting to a certain kind of special/specific abilities, and not to the mundane characters. It stems from a conflict taking its roots directly into power play and the level of characters "OPness".

I'm not saying this negatively! The fact is that people have various tastes and so have roleplayers. We can already see it pretty strongly in that thread here but that's a recurring discussion.

I think you will find bad apples in both sides: as much as you probably have had to deal with RP ayatollahs that just show up with the petty OOC motives in mind you describe, I have had to deal with the opposite, which is RPers with a whole other level of power play than my own that just show up specifically to turn their edgy characters into the spotlight in some sort of attention seeking display by just crushing all the mundane characters around, perfectly knowing that they will have to turn their attention to the edgelord newcomer (how would you react if the WoL suddenly shows up in your everyday life and started showing all their skills?).

However I learned to temper that a bit because it also often stems from basic misunderstandins and false expectations. The intent is not necessarily malicious. In the latter case, some players just don't realize immediately that they are choking all the RP around them by the mere presence of their powerful character (and they just like being the center of attention and the hero of their own story, it's only natural in RP). In the former case, I have also seen a lot of the people you point out doing what they do because that's the only logical way their characters would react to someone claiming to be super powerful or using some very unusual/stretched powers suddenly showing up with a big smile and a flower in the mouth (how would you react if someone suddenly claims to be literally batman IRL? Do you tell him "omg I believe you, you are so awesome!", or do you answer with a lot of sarcasm?).

This is incidentally why I learned to take extreme caution with the kind of RP affinities and characters people play, before going to actually interract with them. Most of those issues always come from that particular issue of power friction.

Aaron · September 29, 2016

Good point, I'm not implying it's happened to me persay (I'll admit my debut to this site and the rp scene in generally I had no idea wtf I was doing, probably still don't but w/e) but the reason I even brought it up was because to this day I'm aware of two particular people in game who go out their way to pick at the slightest things for shits and giggles in their LS, and I've seen them pick apart people (even if the rp wasn't about a power creep) and go on harassing the players about it for months afterwards.

One of them likes to run around Runestone like an idiot in the middle of the event. But I won't name them.

I just would rather Gegen be careful, because he frequents a spot where one of those dickheads likes to scope out.

Edvyn · September 29, 2016

this is veering pretty close to a callout, aaron - try not to let your concern for your fellow roleplayers get in the way of rule adherence

timey robot wizard man sounds pretty cool but making it work sounds tricky, maybe he hung around goblins and picked up legends about the time robot and then was inspired enough by the time robot to build a time robot of his own - assuming such legends exist if the time robot can exist and then not exist

regardless, worrying about people policing your rp is a pretty efficient way to end up paranoid - if you don't actually like them or want to deal with them, their opinion of you is largely meaningless, irrespective of what you may be told

at any given point in time, someone is talking about you or thinking about you and you may never know what they thought or said unless they straight-up tell you, at which point you know exactly what's going on and can discard their opinions - what they're saying and what they're thinking is of little concern, unless you actually seek to impress those people, in which case the impetus is on you to impress them

forgive me im not making sense but do what you like gegenji, my other tangent had some point to make about fearmongering and how you shouldn't pay attention to it so hopefully my point was made amidst this booze-fueled stream of consciousness trash i just typed

Aaron · September 29, 2016

That was amazing.

discussion [Spoilers] Alexander and Summoners

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Please sign in to comment