Dark Knight question

[Shadow]

Hello, the Dark Knight job-class has interested me for quite some time now. Me getting my Roleplaying ideas back on a better track. Just wondering if it's possible for a non ishgardian to become a dark knight

[Steel Wolf]

Nothing in the lore I've read indicates that you have to be Ishgardian to take up the sword of a dark knight. In fact, being removed from Ishgardian influence could be seen as a boon to their mission of true justice against those of higher station abusing their power.

[Shadow]

Thanks. Now to figure out how to go about it. My character has made contact with a soul crystal to....negative effects. Maybe a guide to show him, or figure out things overtime? I'd picture him has a lost emotionless puppy...well kitty in this case, trying to uphold a promise but have little idea how to do so.

[Virella]

Nothing in the lore I've read indicates that you have to be Ishgardian to take up the sword of a dark knight. In fact, being removed from Ishgardian influence could be seen as a boon to their mission of true justice against those of higher station abusing their power.

I'd actually disagree with that! I think Ishgardians, due to it being an Ishgardian class, are more prone to have first hand experience of said corruption of the Church the Dark Knights fight? fought? against, compared of being an outsider. Because we can dance around the subject, at their core, they were based around Ishgardian society being a mess, and not Limsan, Doman, Ala Mhigan or anything else.

[Valence]

There is a subtle difference at play.

 

- Dark Knights are an ishgardian cultural thing, the counterpart of temple knights abusing their powers, among other things. They are the batmans of the city, protecting the people left out and the common man.

 

- However, Ishgard has not always been closed to the outside, and has even re opened its doors recently. The NPC quest giver (Sidurgu) for the 50-60 questline is actually an Aura that has lived there for quite some time.

[Shadow]

Well from other's ideas, what ways are possible to give a person the teachings of a Dark knight? What I took from the Job quest, it felt more like an internal struggle, and since the WoL could technically just start learning it after only spending a few hours within the city. I know, I know. We're not the WoL the special snowflake and such, but it felt more than just pure views on a corrupted city alone. (Not to say there are other parts of the world that could give off a smilier view from different events and so on.)  It looked more emotional to me, somewhat like (Excuse this reference) A Jedi or sith from star wars. Just for an example of what I mean. I could be wrong, and I know I'm unsure, which is why I asked in the first place. I would've explained my opinion sooner, if i wasn't on my phone and busy. Sorry about that.

[Valence]

Lots of jobs in the lore often thread on the trope of a dark and dangerous power put to the service of Good. The Dark Arts for the dark knight, the Inner Beat for the warrior, the Black Magic for the black mage, etc.

 

The MSQ talks a lot about the struggle against one's own dark side born out of one's own emotions. It's kinda sith in itself yeah, except as long as the dark knight keeps it in check and under control, then it's all good.

 

Spoilers ahead:

 

 

The quest goes a long way to follow the case of a dead dark knight (Fray) you happen to stumble upon, and take his soulstone. The story actually tells how you find yourself invested by all those emotions that governed Fray in his struggle against all the wrongs committed by the power in place in Ishgard.

 

It then goes a long way to describe how it's actually all about a journey of self discovery of one's inner, darker side. How you eventually confront your own self, being actually the same Fray that was talking to you all along. That Fray was all along that darker persona, that you have to tame and get the upper hand on.

 

The story takes great care of bringing you to its conclusion, that the emotions fueling your power as a dark knight are not necessarily tainted and corrupted. That any kind of strong emotion, actually, out of righteousness and pity, is the true essence of the job.

 

 

So, all in all, while the story is a lot about a self discovery of one's inner dark side, it still takes root in the same journey that Fray had to go through, like many ishardian dark knights before him.

[Warren Castille]

So, this game sort of hates roleplayers and there is sometimes a wide distinction between a Job and a job (emphasis on the capital letters).

 

By the lore, a Dark Knight is someone who has witnessed the corruption of the Ishgardian church and has risen to fighting it, Punisher-from-Marvel-Comics-style.

 

Buuuuuut the Dark Knight method of using emotional balance to fuel their powers isn't distinctly or specifically limited to the region. Someone could have hypothetically come up with a similar way to burning feelings to get results (In fact, Warrior as a Job comes pretty close to channeling that sort of thing!) so you kind of have to ask yourself: Do I want to be a Capital-D Capital-K Dark Knight and be bound to Ishgard? Or do I just want a greatsword and some special powers?

 

The answer might surprise you!

 

(SE does similar shit to Paladins (royal guards, not just Knights) and White Mages (Eorzea EPA, not just healers) and Black Mages (criminal scum, not just spellcasters) and Dragoons (exclusive Ishgard Spec Ops, not just jump rope enthusiasts) and Monks (warrior-priests, not just punch artists) and so on and so forth.)

[Valence]

Personally I don't believe the Dark Arts as used by the dark knights are really to be found anywhere else since it took them centuries to actually discover those arts...

 

Matter of interpretation I guess.

[Caspar]

Personally I don't believe the Dark Arts as used by the dark knights are really to be found anywhere else since it took them centuries to actually discover those arts...

 

Matter of interpretation I guess.

Where does it say precisely how long ago or how they discovered it?

They mention the first Dark Knight in the Ishgardian context, but IIRC the account had more to do with the man's vigilantism than the power-source.

The specific tradition of Dark Knights was created in the context of the Holy See's corruption, but it doesn't follow the power source itself sprung from it.

[Warren Castille]

If Edison never invented the light bulb, we'd never have had a light bulb! No one else would have ever created it; It simply wouldn't exist outside of that specific date and time.

 

...I know the lore establishes that DRKs in Ishgard discovered the arts but I'm content to let people dwell in that rather expansive grey area.

[Sounsyy]

Personally I don't believe the Dark Arts as used by the dark knights are really to be found anywhere else since it took them centuries to actually discover those arts...

Where does it say precisely how long ago or how they discovered it?

 

In the year 960 of the Sixth Astral Era, a commoner by the name of Tryphaniel the Unshod was granted knighthood for acts of valour upon the battlefield. A young man with an unwavering sense of justice, Tyrphaniel’s desire to champion the cause of the lowborn was undiluted by his entrance into the privileged world of the nobility. It was this same moral fortitude that bid him trail after clergyman after witnessing the robed figure drag a squirming child from the alleys of the Brume. The knight’s suspicions were confirmed when he entered the secluded domicile of the priest only to find him committing unspeakable acts upon th ebody of the abducted waif. Noticing his unexpected visitor, the clergyman attempted to explain away his vile actions as a form of “exorcism”, but the incensed Tryphaniel drew his sword without hesitation, and answered the babbled excuses with a single, fatal blow.

 

Rather than praise his heroism, however, the knight’s peers condemned him for slaying a holy member of the church. He was forced to defend his life in a trial by combat, but though he survived, it was decreed that he would be stripped of his knighthood. Unflinching in the face of accusations that he had fallen to darkness, Tryphaniel roared that he would gladly surrender a title that required him to turn a blind eye to a child’s suffering. He cast aside his crested shield - the symbol of his station - and continued his crusade for the commonfolk with no thought or fear for what others held taboo. His righteous deeds inspired some courageous few to embrace the path of the forbidden, and thus the legacy of the dark knight was born.

Though known for their disdain for shields' date=' the fighting style of the earliest dark knights was nevertheless built upon mundane swordplay, and it was not until [b']several centuries[/b] later that one of their order first unlocked the secrets of the dark arts.

 

Essentially, for about a 300~ish time frame the Dark Knights of Ishgard were mundane vigilantes keeping the wicked among Ishgard's Temple Knights and Halonic Church accountable. Centuries later, they learned to channel deep-seated emotions into a pseudo-aetherial fuel source for the dark arts.

 

While I don't think it impossible for dark knights to exist or have existed in other parts of the world, based on what we know they did not and if they did they became known by other names local to the region of their birth. Warriors of Abalathia wielding their Inner Beast. Shinobi of Hingashi liberating ancient Doma from a cruel king's rule. Bards across the realm fueling their songs with raw emotion.

 

Could a vigilante with a big sword exist in other parts of the world, yes. Could warriors of other nations use emotions to tap into a deep wellspring of power, yes. Would these other examples be called "dark knights" outside of Ishgard, most likely not no.

 

Full lore compilations on what we know about the Dark Knights below:

-Dark Knight Lore

-Encyclopedia Eorzea on Dark Knights

[Valence]

If Edison never invented the light bulb, we'd never have had a light bulb! No one else would have ever created it; It simply wouldn't exist outside of that specific date and time.

 

...I know the lore establishes that DRKs in Ishgard discovered the arts but I'm content to let people dwell in that rather expansive grey area.

 

I'm content to let people dwell on whatever they like. I'm not here to judge...

 

Your example works only if you position yourself in a later timeframe of Edison (or whoever of the various previous inventors of the lightbulb you fancy).

 

If you position yourself at the exact timeframe of Edison, then nobody invented it elsewhere. It starts to get muddled since the world was already open and globalizing, but the analogy can work even better with inventions like black powder, which was indeed already used on the other side of the known world back then by the chinese among others.

 

But if you start taking as a frame of reference the time when they invented black powder there, and not in the western world where it was ported centuries later, then I believe to be fairly certain that they were the first to have done that and that it wasn't used anywhere else in the world.

 

So, my point is, maybe it happens elsewhere. Or maybe not. It's out of the lore current boundaries, and thus, fanon at best.

[John Spiegel]

Alright, this is an issue I have with people taking the lore literally.

 

Dark Knights ARE a construct of Ishgard as that there was the "first dark knight" who went and slew a man of the cloth for being a creeper, won his trial by combat, and cast his banner aside. That was @500 years ago.

 

In the entirety of spoken crawling across the world, there weren't other cases of people going against the law/fighting injustice or using perceived evil to snuff out untouchables? There -had- to have been. They just weren't called dark KNIGHTS!

 

FFXIV likes to lock a particular style or profession somehow to one city state.. but in the lore, for example, Ala Mhigo, Gridania, and Ishgard all have marvelous lancers each with their own specialization. Ala Mhigo had the griffin-mounted lancers that took the Elementals' intervention and the Eorzean Alliance to fight back in the Shroud in the Autumn War. Ishgard got their pikemen and dragoons. Gridania got hippy lancers. Sure, they all might have originated in Glemmora or some pre-current society and branched out when that nation died.

 

I like to think the Dark Knights that are centered in Ishgard (the "first dark knight", Frey, Grumpylizard...) are all one variety of "Dark Walkers/Weilders" in that, despite some things changing for them over time, they can trace their original to that of a knight. Frey and Sid weren't knights at all and became dark knights. Frey was a Brume runt and Sid was a lizard that survived ethnic clenching from Ishgardians thinking au ra refugees were dravanians.

 

TL;DR -- Silly to tie weilding darkness or being a vigilante to Ishgard!

[Gegenji]

TL;DR -- Silly to tie weilding darkness or being a vigilante to Ishgard!

 

I don't think anyone's saying that being a vigilante is a DRK exclusive thing. It's the other part that kinda is. Well, to be more specific: utilizing it in that particular way is. I... think that part may require a bit more clarification, so please bear with me.

 

While other places may have found a way to tap into their emotions and use it to give them power, they're likely not going to be in the exact same way as a Dark Knight does it. As has been mentioned, the Warrior job is a good example of this - you're still using your emotions to bolster your strength, but it's an Inner Beast rather than a Darkside. Or if you want to abstract it out further - Black Magic and White Magic are both techniques to draw aether from the planet to power spells, but both are wildly different in practice despite both being "using the planet's aether."

 

So while other places may develop something similar... it's not going to be the same. If you're specifically talking utilizing the Darkside, that's a technique developed by the Dark Knights, who hail from Ishgard.

 

That said, it also means that something similar could be figured out elsewhere, but it's not going to be the exact same and has a lot of potential to be twisted in a whole new angle or approach. Perhaps in Doma a Ninja figured out a way to tap into their emotions to fuel their Mudras in a way unique to Othard. You just have to put a more creative twist onto it than "I'm a Dark Knight, but just not from Ishgard."

[Caspar]

If Edison never invented the light bulb, we'd never have had a light bulb! No one else would have ever created it; It simply wouldn't exist outside of that specific date and time.

 

...I know the lore establishes that DRKs in Ishgard discovered the arts but I'm content to let people dwell in that rather expansive grey area.

 

I'm content to let people dwell on whatever they like. I'm not here to judge...

 

Your example works only if you position yourself in a later timeframe of Edison (or whoever of the various previous inventors of the lightbulb you fancy).

 

If you position yourself at the exact timeframe of Edison, then nobody invented it elsewhere. It starts to get muddled since the world was already open and globalizing, but the analogy can work even better with inventions like black powder, which was indeed already used on the other side of the known world back then by the chinese among others.

 

But if you start taking as a frame of reference the time when they invented black powder there, and not in the western world where it was ported centuries later, then I believe to be fairly certain that they were the first to have done that and that it wasn't used anywhere else in the world.

 

So, my point is, maybe it happens elsewhere. Or maybe not. It's out of the lore current boundaries, and thus, fanon at best.

The analogy doesn't work either way because the quests clearly portray Darkside as a force, not something developed, unlike the name Dark Knight and the role they play in Ishgardian society as well as their fencing techniques which are explicitly Ishgardian. At least if I'm understanding Sounsyy's lore correctly. This is like arguing electricity was invented, rather than the light bulb.

 

The question is more how hard is it to become aware of this force, which isn't covered in the lore, so it's really speculative at best, if not forbidden or directly contradicting anything. Whether to shoulder the extra work in explaining it away or not is probably just something best left up to the discretion of individuals and RP group.

[Gegenji]

Technically, in this situation, I would think one's emotions are the "electricity" and the Darkside/Inner Beast/what-have-you would be the "bulb." After all, the actual power comes from one's emotions, and how it manifests and is used is the Darkside/Inner Beast/etc. But that's just my take on it. :blush:

[Caspar]

Technically, in this situation, I would think one's emotions are the "electricity" and the Darkside/Inner Beast/what-have-you would be the "bulb." After all, the actual power comes from one's emotions, and how it manifests and is used is the Darkside/Inner Beast/etc. But that's just my take on it. :blush:

 

Yeah, it's been said that Darkside and Inner Beast sound similar thematically so it could be a related source of power based upon emotion but until the way this power works is described in detail the correlation is murky. Along with how much is from emotion or supernatural influences. (But everything in this world is kinda supernatural.)

[Valence]

If Edison never invented the light bulb, we'd never have had a light bulb! No one else would have ever created it; It simply wouldn't exist outside of that specific date and time.

 

...I know the lore establishes that DRKs in Ishgard discovered the arts but I'm content to let people dwell in that rather expansive grey area.

 

I'm content to let people dwell on whatever they like. I'm not here to judge...

 

Your example works only if you position yourself in a later timeframe of Edison (or whoever of the various previous inventors of the lightbulb you fancy).

 

If you position yourself at the exact timeframe of Edison, then nobody invented it elsewhere. It starts to get muddled since the world was already open and globalizing, but the analogy can work even better with inventions like black powder, which was indeed already used on the other side of the known world back then by the chinese among others.

 

But if you start taking as a frame of reference the time when they invented black powder there, and not in the western world where it was ported centuries later, then I believe to be fairly certain that they were the first to have done that and that it wasn't used anywhere else in the world.

 

So, my point is, maybe it happens elsewhere. Or maybe not. It's out of the lore current boundaries, and thus, fanon at best.

The analogy doesn't work either way because the quests clearly portray Darkside as a force, not something developed, unlike the name Dark Knight and the role they play in Ishgardian society as well as their fencing techniques which are explicitly Ishgardian. At least if I'm understanding Sounsyy's lore correctly. This is like arguing electricity was invented, rather than the light bulb.

 

The question is more how hard is it to become aware of this force, which isn't covered in the lore, so it's really speculative at best, if not forbidden or directly contradicting anything. Whether to shoulder the extra work in explaining it away or not is probably just something best left up to the discretion of individuals and RP group.

 

But we are talking about the Dark Arts, not just the Dark Side, right?

 

Could take another, more organic analogy perhaps? Are martial arts invented everywhere? Yeah. Kung Fu? Too specific. Mostly comes from one place/culture.

 

So, the question becomes, are Dark Arts the former (martial arts), or the latter (a form of martial arts, which is kung fu)?

 

I'm afraid not to have any answer to that question. This is why I find it extremely hazardous to state Dark Arts are used elsewhere. Maybe another type of Dark Arts specific to that other region huh?

[Garrick]

To weigh in here with literally passing knowledge of the lore and a 1:30am fuelled desire to post somewhere:

 

(Passing spoilers of my understanding of the Dark Knight story follow)

 

 

As I understand it, the Fray you actually learn from, and who teaches you the weighs of the Dark Knight for the entirety of what I'll call the 'first act' of the Dark Knight story is literally just the player character's negative emotions personified. Created by the soul stone, or by the player's own desire to learn, with the imperative to teach and test the player character.

 

If we're to take this approach to it, yes, the personification could have had all of the original Fray's memories. OR it simply teaches the player the nature of tapping into the darker emotions as a power source, effectively making the character -entirely- self taught. So, theoretically, any character with an edgy enough backstory, or a roleplayer with a desire to provide their character with the powers of Darkness, could rationalise their character developing such abilities in their own way as well.

 

Those are just my thoughts on the matter.