discussion Spying In Character: Communication is Key?

[Mermaid]

If I post a thread in a public forum and clearly label it as closed does that mean you should be able to jump in? The forum is public and everyone can see it, after all.

 

I don't really think that's an accurate metaphor, though? It's more along the lines of, what if you made a thread on a public forum and didn't clearly label it as closed in a community where such threads are typically understood/assumed to be open, and then proceeded to exclude or ignore anyone else who posted, or get angry with them, or message them OOC to tell them they can't be involved because it's private, etc.? /Say and /em and open world RP are generally fair game. It's assumed that if your avatar is standing there and you are posting in open chat there, your character is physically there in the world, and therefore approachable because they are, well, a part of the world all our characters are sharing and seeing. That's the draw of in-game MMO RP after all--that we have a complete little immersive IC universe here. If people want to have closed RP's in public channels, that's totally fine, but if others are gonna see them as standoffish, or rude, or weird because of it, I think the onus is on them to accept that for going against the norm and bringing out candy they're not going to share with the whole class.

 

I guess that's fair since my example clearly had a tool to label. The point was really just to show examples where something being public didn't mean it had to be open for anyone. Really, it's the open to anyone part that bothers me. The part where simply saying no means you're "rude" or "standoffish" without people stopping to think you might have your reasons.

 

Things like spying, eavesdropping, and blackmailing can be extremely sensitive. Heck, anything potentially leading to conflict can be sensitive. I've dealt with my share of bad RPers (bad players in many cases) so that's not the sort of thing I'd want just anyone dropping on me without even asking. In any sort of conflict, I want to see you're not the sort of person to get pissy if things don't go the way you want (I have met too many of these people) before I engage in it.

 

Most of the RPing I've done in the past has had to be consented to in some way or another. The forum stuff I did ages ago, for example, often required you to fill out a profile for your character and submit it to the person who made the thread for approval. This meant the characters involved usually fit the setting decently well and didn't have ridiculously powerful abilities. So this whole 'I can do any kind of interaction with any character without consent' comes off as a little scary to me.

[waylander13]

Just don't do it. Don't RP as a spy, people are too pissy to handle it.

[Faye]

snip

 

Personally, I'd rather take the "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" approach than assume the worst up front and make others prove themselves otherwise to me before there's allowed to be any sort of IC conflict. Conflict is what fuels stories and while that conflict doesn't necessarily have to be with other player characters, that's a facet that's unique to role-play and worth exploring to most people. I understand it can be hard to gauge reactions sometimes and that some characters or the role-players behind them can be unpredictable, but I don't believe it's fair to do something that could likely cause conflict (talking about sensitive information, committing a crime, doing something insulting to other characters, etc.), but then refuse to accept any consequences or let the RP flow in its logical direction because of a desire to avoid said conflict.

 

There are plenty of places someone could go to RP these things undisturbed, be it a personal house or FC house, or RPing in a linkshell or party chat, or even RPing out of game as many people do. Or just continue to RP in public but leave out the bits that are likely going to lead to outcomes you don't like. You don't have to RP with everyone, but having a few exclusions is different from closing off your public RP to strangers altogether. Some people just don't mesh, be it for personal reasons or just conflicting RP styles, and it's okay to avoid those people for you, but yes, I do think it's 100% rude to RP in public yet consider it to be a closed RP, or for someone to exclude anyone from joining if they are not doing it in exactly the way they want despite their approach being appropriate or even expected.

 

If someone wants to start conflict with my character and I think the prospects look grim for their character and they might not to take it well OOC, I shoot them a message about it OOC. If you think the RP might be approaching an iffy situation, you can reach out to the other person rather than expecting them to do it first. No one can know upfront what you are or aren't comfortable with, and while it never hurts to ask, something as mundane as eavesdropping on things that could be realistically heard by another character isn't something I feel should need them to check with you beforehand. You don't have to ignore people or make them prove themselves to you beforehand to avoid a potential bad situation that might never occur, you can just excuse yourself from the bad situation if and when it does happen. The great thing about RP and the internet in general is you can just walk away at any moment, retcon, blacklist if you have to.

 

Personally, I think it's better to deal with things as they happen rather than become aloof to avoid the possibility of them. It's a problem I think is rampant in MMO RP communities. Closing ourselves off for fear of other RPers being "bad" is how we get reputations for being clique-ish, alienating, and rude when we primarily RP in private housing or when we rebuke people trying to join in when we RP in public. Getting defensive with anyone we feel is not a "real" role-player and therefore may be a "troll" is how we get a reputation for being sensitive, dramatic, and socially inept. Ironically, we drag down the community with our paranoia of being hurt by other people in the community.

[Mermaid]

Personally, I'd rather take the "hope for the best but prepare for the worst" approach than assume the worst up front and make others prove themselves otherwise to me before there's allowed to be any sort of IC conflict. Conflict is what fuels stories and while that conflict doesn't necessarily have to be with other player characters, that's a facet that's unique to role-play and worth exploring to most people. I understand it can be hard to gauge reactions sometimes and that some characters or the role-players behind them can be unpredictable, but I don't believe it's fair to do something that could likely cause conflict (talking about sensitive information, committing a crime, doing something insulting to other characters, etc.), but then refuse to accept any consequences or let the RP flow in its logical direction because of a desire to avoid said conflict.

 

-Cut-

 

If someone wants to start conflict with my character and I think the prospects look grim for their character and they might not to take it well OOC, I shoot them a message about it OOC. If you think the RP might be approaching an iffy situation, you can reach out to the other person rather than expecting them to do it first. No one can know upfront what you are or aren't comfortable with, and while it never hurts to ask, something as mundane as eavesdropping on things that could be realistically heard by another character isn't something I feel should need them to check with you beforehand. You don't have to ignore people or make them prove themselves to you beforehand to avoid a potential bad situation that might never occur, you can just excuse yourself from the bad situation if and when it does happen. The great thing about RP and the internet in general is you can just walk away at any moment, retcon, blacklist if you have to.

 

-Cut-

 

I had a feeling my potentially poor wording would be misconstrued in exactly this way if I didn't specify. I opted not to for feeling I was being too wordy or explaining the wrong things.

 

I usually do give everyone a chance without anyone needing to prove anything to me. When it comes to conflict, however, I want a chance to at least skim your character's wiki or Tumblr bio/info/history/backstory first. I'm going to paraphrase here but over the years I have seen the following:

• A sniper who never misses. This was a sniper with a gun, by the way, not some Robin Hood wanting to win every archery contest.
  
• The most powerful mage in the world. This was their setting but this was their PC not an NPC or villain.
  
• A character in their early 20s who was well-versed in every known type of magic. The setting stated that some of these types of magic were rare or unique to certain parts of the world.
  
• A character who was a good enough fighter that they never lost. They were literally saying if you fought them they wouldn't lose.
  

Since it's been long enough and there's enough room for plausible deniability I will say that one of those examples, combined with what I saw of the person, is what prompted me to make that thread a few months ago. Seeing stuff like that not only tells me I don't want to do combat with you but that more often than not you're the type of person who can't handle a dispute well. I've found it's safer not to do anything that leads to any kind of conflict with those people. Something as seemingly mundane as eavesdropping can can turn into a problem. So, yes, I want to be asked first so I can no to people who look problematic.

[Warren Castille]

 

[*]A sniper who never misses. This was a sniper with a gun, by the way, not some Robin Hood wanting to win every archery contest.

[*]The most powerful mage in the world. This was their setting but this was their PC not an NPC or villain.

[*]A character in their early 20s who was well-versed in every known type of magic. The setting stated that some of these types of magic were rare or unique to certain parts of the world.

[*]A character who was a good enough fighter that they never lost. They were literally saying if you fought them they wouldn't lose.

 

 

Welcome to roleplaying in general, friend. This sort of stuff pops up in every setting, every game, every world, across anything that is open to the public.

 

The trick is to just get into the thick of it and eventually learn who to encourage and who to avoid. XIV has its share of characters both good and bad, cool and ugly. It's a give and take thing: You can sure cut off the entire community if you want and just put yourself on a pedestal (universal you, not you, Mermaid) but that just means you're potentially missing out on a lot of cool people who'd otherwise want to hop in.

 

Like all hobbies, roleplaying requires a degree of work to get your maximum return. Some people are content to never do the work, but those people are usually the ones bitching about how there's nothing to do, no one to talk to, or how dead a seemingly populated server is.

 

Edit: In terms of people who "look problematic" do you think you're able to make that kind of snap judgment in a matter of short moments in a crowded place?

[Akeno Asukai]

[align=justify]So, I've been watching this thread grow; reading responses and making some minor adjustments to my approach on the subject. I'd like to say that I genuinely appreciate the amount of feedback this has gotten, as it's a topic which is vital to my main character. 

 

There have been some things which I disagree with wholeheartedly, as I am of the mindset that when role-playing in public (such as popular hubs like Ul'dah, Gridania and Free Company hosted events) anyone can overhear or intentionally listen in on a conversation. Majority of the time, there isn't too much to be "gained" from eavesdropping on conversations in these hubs and events: I can promise you, a lot of topics are idle chatter and getting to know one another.

      And this is the type of information I've been gathering on my main. I've learned loads about former sex slaves and girls who are too shy to "make the first move". I've also learned (as stated here in the threads) that not everyone is super okay with their conversation being listened to; I've been spotted behind pillars, crates and even from behind (I was behind the person, near a plant). This is going to happen regardless of intention. I have accepted it. 

 

I was a little surprised at the amount of people who spoke up for OOC communication when in a public setting. I can understand certain settings and the reason behind it, but it intrigues me greatly.

      I do feel that this thread has gone off to the whole "doing wrong in public" direction and the truth is, most of what I've gathered is far from "dangerous dealings". The most exciting conversation I've listened in on, I was told to "please stop listening to us. This is private." and it was a possible assassination on some character I've never heard of. I can accept that the conversation did take place in a more seclusive place of Ul'dah, I just happened to be walking about taking in the holiday decor in-character (which was emoted) when Akeno overheard something akin to, "Are you sure that poison will work?" Forgive me if this was one of your characters and you feel outed, but I needed an example. 

 

When it comes to private role-play done in a public setting, I'm desperate to understand why people insist on using public channels such as /em or /say as opposed to a party-channel; which is a question that is a little off-topic as it dives into a whole new area of conversation. 

 

Again, I appreciate all the feedback. It's actually made me a little hopeful seeing that some of the bigger names on Balmung share a similar mindset to myself when it comes to public conversations. It renews my faith in finding the kind of role-play I want on a closed server. ^^;[/align]

[Faye]

Welcome to roleplaying in general, friend. This sort of stuff pops up in every setting, every game, every world, across anything that is open to the public.

 

The trick is to just get into the thick of it and eventually learn who to encourage and who to avoid. XIV has its share of characters both good and bad, cool and ugly. It's a give and take thing: You can sure cut off the entire community if you want and just put yourself on a pedestal (universal you, not you, Mermaid) but that just means you're potentially missing out on a lot of cool people who'd otherwise want to hop in.

 

Like all hobbies, roleplaying requires a degree of work to get your maximum return. Some people are content to never do the work, but those people are usually the ones bitching about how there's nothing to do, no one to talk to, or how dead a seemingly populated server is.

 

Edit: In terms of people who "look problematic" do you think you're able to make that kind of snap judgment in a matter of short moments in a crowded place?

 

I agree, people powerplaying and making improbable/impossible characters is just par for the course in RP. I've been RPing for well over a decade and seen dozens if not hundreds of characters similar to the examples, as well as people with more appropriate sounding character concepts but who RP to "win" and can't stand their character losing or not being the best, or just people who have a very specific plot in mind they don't want derailed in any way even though they haven't taken proper measures to secure it (such as, example from the post above: discussing an assassination openly in a city and expecting no eavesdropping or intervention).

 

I know how bad things can go when you're role-playing with someone who's not on the same page about what's realistic or fair, and I totally understand and agree with the desire to avoid these people to prevent future issues. Personally, I just find the best approach to be wiggling myself out of those situations when they arise (or seem imminent) rather than have people run everything by me OOC to approve or decline beforehand. The RP flows more organically and believably, everyone gets a chance, and no one feels slighted or excluded unless they've already blown said chance. But at the end of the day that's just my opinion on what I think is best for the RP/community and what works for me. I think I have a much more go-with-the-flow approach to RP than a lot of others do in recent years.

[Teadrinker]

When it comes to private role-play done in a public setting, I'm desperate to understand why people insist on using public channels such as /em or /say as opposed to a party-channel; which is a question that is a little off-topic as it dives into a whole new area of conversation.

 

 

People also complain when people RP in public in closed channels.

 

At the end of the day, not everyone is going to be RPing up to yours or anyone elses specific tastes or standards. If you find people who don't jive with you then just leave them alone and vice versa.

 

If you find yourself thinking "Man, I dislike the way they do things." Then just don't interact.

 

If the groups insist on interacting ICly then make sure there is a lot of OOC communication to prevent problems so no one has reason to make waves later.

 

This can pretty much apply to any facet of RP.

[ExAtomos]

I've been spotted behind pillars, crates and even from behind (I was behind the person, near a plant).

 

This I would file under "feel like someone's watching me" (sorry for the earworm lol) and I personally would give a pass to cause there is some logic in catching sight of someone trying to hide while listening in.

 

I was told to "please stop listening to us. This is private." and it was a possible assassination on some character I've never heard of.

 

This is rude and I would have called them out on it.

 

I have had other characters speak up while I'm having some sort of heated discussion icly. One was a wandering Immortal Flames in the back areas of Ul'dah who asked if there was a problem. (While startling, well within his rights as a guard.) Another was someone speaking up when my character started swinging on someone else in Kugane. "Knock it off or I'll call one of the Sekiseigumi." The fight was none of their business... an illegal fight starting near where they were standing was.

 

To me? Your character is a spy. You're gonna be spying. It's what you do. The logical reasoning is solid and I personally find little reason to argue against it.

 

Would my character possibly call yours out icly if I found you snooping? You bet your ass I would.

 

XIV open world /say and /emote channels aren't a private chat room. Hell, /say and /em are public unless you're in a private room and the door is locked... much like the real world.

 

Keep annoyance at being spied on an ic thing.

[Verad]

Writing in public and not wanting people to join you isn't roleplay. It's masturbating.

 

As a public masturbater, I take offense to this. The spectacle usually ensures people don't want to join anyway.