The RP Healer Manifesto, slightly cross-posted from Tumblr

[Nevivi Nevi]

I posted a version of this to Tumblr and fully expected to catch flack for it...and haven't. In fact I have received a really saddening number of tags/reblogs from people who have, unfortunately, been completely driven away from playing their characters due to other healers' bad behavior. So I figured, heck, let's put it here as well in a more RP-centric hub. Plus some refinement since I've had more time to sleep on it and flesh out some thoughts better than a single Tumblr post generally allows for. I jotted it down rather quickly and I think on my phone in the bathroom, which isn't really the most...eloquent way to do anything...look, I never said I was a paragon of good habits.

So I've been playing Nevivi as a conjurer and chirurgeon for a couple of years now, and she used to be my main, but after actually experiencing how healers treat other healers in RP I got a foul taste in my mouth over it and haven't gone back to it. And I am not even remotely the only one to have experienced this. Healers in general are so hellbent on being THE HERO OF THE SCENE that they'll scene-crash, god-mod over other writers' boundaries and autonomy, push other healers out of the way, and generally trample each other into the dirt to get to the spotlight and claim it. It's pretty gross behavior, and it wouldn't be tolerated from any other role, so why is it this prevalent and generally accepted for healer characters? It shouldn't be.

So here. The ten commandments of RPing a healer without being a jerk to other healers. I follow these. I hope you’ll consider doing the same.

1. Injured characters are not stepping stones to making a scene all about you, unless it really is already your scene. Leave the spotlight where you found it.
2. Other writers always have bodily autonomy over their characters no matter how accomplished your character is. Your job is to facilitate what they will allow to have happen to their character, within your character’s abilities. Anything else is god-modding. If someone says they don't want to be insta-healed, you don't get to insta-heal them. If they want to have a lasting scar, or a disability, or even die? That is their call. Don't go around trying to 'fix' someone's disabled character who doesn't want it. Just like (I hope) you already know you shouldn't god-mod your fist into someone's face, do not god-mod your healing abilities into their face either. It's no different.
3. If someone’s character is injured and someone else is there first, tough. They got there first. You may ask to join, and you may be told no. Respect that. Stumbling onto a scene that your character 'would want to help!!' in doesn't mean you actually have the right do jump in, just like any other scene. Healers ain't special. Scene-crashing is still incredibly rude and uncalled-for.
4. It isn’t always your job to jump in and patch someone up. It might well be someone else's based on pre-existing group dynamics or rules. If you’re RPing on private property, in a moderated open world event, in an open forum, or otherwise in a venue or group with a hierarchy that includes a healer, and you’re not that healer, you don’t do their job for them unless asked. It’s not your scene. A lot of events, such as fight clubs, have their own healers on staff, and that job belongs to them unless you OOCly discuss who's doing what and come to an agreement.
5. If you have subjects you don’t want to write about, you have the right to be clear and firm about them. You aren’t a real doctor. Nobody actually dies if you pass on a scene that could harm you to participate in. You have the right to end any interaction that crosses a boundary, on the spot, and without explanation until and unless you’re calm and able to do so. Even RPing a healer sort there can absolutely be subjects you don't want to touch, and that's your right to not get into them. If it's something that your character would do but you as a writer don't want to deal with, handwave it. If you don't even want to be involved? Don't be involved. It's that simple.
6. You aren’t a real doctor. You won’t know how to handle everything realistically and that’s okay. Do research as you want/need, but don’t stress about it. Anyone who gives you shit for doing it wrong needs to take a step back. It's just a story, after all, and there's no need to get bent over a missed detail or something. You are within your rights to tell them to back off over it.
7. There is no shame in researching anything you don’t know. Try adding “for writing” to searches. You’d be surprised how much of the heavy lifting has been done already. Don’t be afraid to gloss over things, too, there's a reason it takes 10+ years to become a doctor in real life. Expecting that of yourself or others for the sake of a little RP is just silly, but Google can be your friend if you really need some information quickly.
8. You have the right to tell anyone else butting into a scene that you are already part of to butt right back on out. It’s your scene if someone approaches you for healing. It’s your scene if it’s pre-negotiated. It’s your scene if it’s your own character being injured. It’s your scene if you are the healer in attendance for your group. Tolerating a scene-crasher, no matter how well-intentioned, is not something that any RPer has to do.
9. Don’t be a douche. Don’t be a scene-stealer. Don’t be a spotlight hog. Don’t be more powerful than your patients want. Don’t forget to communicate. Don’t get so swept up in being important that you fail to be thoughtful. You can't be part of the solution while you're being part of the problem. Real people are on the other end of every single character, and everyone deserves to be treated with respect.
10. Do have fun and be polite and respectful to each other. There’s enough RP to go around. There really is! I'm serious! And if there’s not, we’re all capable of finding or making some. You’re only entitled to scenes you have a legitimate claim to, whether it's because you started it, you're on staff for an event, or you were given the go-ahead to join. Honestly, an enormous amount of the RP in this game boils down to "oh no so-and-so got hurt!!" just because of the nature of the setting and the types of conflict that happen. Healers are not lacking for something to do, and if you are, there are several healer linkshells and organizations that you can get together with and flex your doctor muscles.

 
The entire list comes down to three really simple, overarcing things: communicate, respect, and don’t scene-crash.

That’s it. That’s literally all.

It’s easy to feel like healer RP somehow has a different code of ethics than other RP, but it doesn’t. Yeah, your character totally would, if they were a real person in a real situation, run in and try to save someone in trouble. Even if other people were doing the same. This is a completely normal impulse! And you’re not bad for having it. Humans are just this good at empathy. A bunch of pixels or words on a screen displaying distress can kick you into surprisingly high anxiety about the outcome, and it’s easy to accidentally get wrapped up in that feeling. But your character is not a real person and they're not in control of your actions. I don't care how strong your 'muse' is, you're the real flesh-and-bone person at the real plastic-and-silicon keyboard, you're making the decision to behave with manners or not.

Someone’s character in danger in a scene that you’re not necessarily part of is categorically not the same as a real person in danger. In real life we are all in the same scene, all the time, it’s actual life or death, and yes, you really should help if you see something bad happening. In fiction, it’s not a real person, you do not have to canonically even exist on the same timeline as them and might not “be” present despite being there, and your sense of immersion does not trump their right to have the scene carry on how they want it to. Even if your guy could snap his fingers and put the other guy's intestines back where they're supposed to be.

Ask before you rush in. Don’t be a jerk to people. If someone’s a jerk to you, stand up for yourself respectfully but firmly. And talk about your expectations and listen to the other writers’ expectations, and figure out what works for everyone. It’s exactly the same as all other RP.

[LiadansWhisper]

I feel like this could all be summed up with a simple, "Do not godmod people, you POS" and "Be a considerate human being instead of a total asshat."

Cause that's what all this is.  It's godmodding. And asshats.

I say this as someone who plays a healer.

[Nevivi Nevi]

Pretty much. I'm floored at how prevalent and generally accepted it is, when for non-healer characters nobody would even remotely tolerate it. I hope I'm preaching to the choir but I figure if I put it somewhere visible maybe it'll catch on as a wider community standard because gods damn we are bad at this as a whole.

[LiadansWhisper]

1 minute ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

Pretty much. I'm floored at how prevalent and generally accepted it is, when for non-healer characters nobody would even remotely tolerate it. I hope I'm preaching to the choir but I figure if I put it somewhere visible maybe it'll catch on as a wider community standard because gods damn we are bad at this as a whole.

We...are?

Maybe I'm just sheltered. I really haven't run into any of this.

[Nevivi Nevi]

47 minutes ago, LiadansWhisper said:

We...are?

Maybe I'm just sheltered. I really haven't run into any of this.

I have run into it so much that I don't even try to do healer stuff on my old main, when that's explicitly her day job and entire life's training, so I mean...yeah. I'm glad that you haven't run into it, but it really is pretty prevalent. I wasn't kidding about the replies I got via Tumblr.

[Faye]

I guess it just depends on the circles you run in? I've witnessed (as well as heard many horror stories of) healers who insist on instantly fixing a long-term disability someone intentionally gave their character, otherwise I haven't seen or experienced many of these more than a couple times in my years RPing Faye as a healer. I will say once on Balmung I had someone shove my conjurer out of the way when she was already healing someone by an untrained person with a first-aid kit and then proceed to try to start a straight up hair-pulling catfight about who got the heal the injured person IC, and I've also had someone in my former FC try to demean other healer RPers for being "incorrect" about various medical things because she was in vet school IRL. Turned out it was the same person who had namechanged and hidden her identity and had a whole slew of other issues on top of that. So, uh, I think if that anecdote is indicative of anything, as things often go in RP communities, most people are chill and it's often the same few noisy bad eggs causing problems.

But whether the issues are rampant or not, the OP is good words to live by and consider, whether you are role-playing a healer or role-playing in a scene where others are healing. In another MMO I've RPed recently, twice now (by the same person both times, furthering the "bad egg" theory, I guess) I've tried to have my character help someone who was injured only for another character to swoop in suddenly and take over the scene and the healing. It's frustrating and discouraging. I understand wanting your time in the sun, but if someone else beats you to it, let them have theirs instead of interrupting.

[Andromeda]

I think it's very dependant on the people you run with. I've been the useless muggle next to a few pop-up healing emergencies and seen a bit of scene stealing and shoehorning, but most of the ones I've been actually involved in have been very well done. Even when people pressured my character to fix her magical disabilities, they were respectful of the pacing I wanted to take it at.

 

As for healers wanting to join in a scene, I think you can certainly offer, especially if your character has specialties, but remember you're a supporting player, you can only offer.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Andromeda

[Valence]

I guess this is why I don't RP with strangers, since god modding or "differences in playstyle" are pretty much inevitable.

When someone swoops in and tries to take over and does not take into account your own RP actions and replies, it falls into that category indeed.

If not, then I feel that those commandments are pretty much out of place because they base everything off OOC, which is pretty bad for a good free flowing RP. If everyone is respectful of each other, many bullet points stop applying and even prove counter productive. 

Also, keep in mind that RPing in the open in public exposes you to people coming in and potentially interrupting. If you're not ok with that, and do not want to send them the link to a lengthy list of commandements every time it happens, RP in private.

 

RPing in public is like going through DF or PF honestly. If you can't accept to deal with all the differences and ideals and personalities you're going to find inside, then don't.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Valence

[Erah'sae]

Ye gods, there's so much in this post I don't agree with.  It tries to get the jist of it right but goes way too far.  I'm going to get on a soapbox and rant a little here.   This "manifesto" is part of the reason the concept of the living world and open RP had died.  It's a response to the 'fear' of someone doing something unplanned without realizing the simple fact that only you have control over what happens to your character.

Here's my version manifesto as a roleplayer.  It covers healers, the physically violent, and anything else.

"Only you control what happens to your character.  You are the master of your own fate (if you want to be.)"
"If you attempt to do something ICly, deal with the the IC repercussions of your actions."
"You don't have to RP topics you as a player don't feel comfortable with.  Don't try and make others do this either."
"Don't write the effects of your actions, leave that to those you are attempting to effect.  Fail in this and you're godmodding."
"Keep IC IC and OOC  OOC."

That's it... That covers just about anything.  

In short... Don't write the effects of your healing for the inflicted, that's god-modding.
Just like you can swing a right hook at anyone and they don't have to take it, you can try any healing you like and it doesn't have to work. 

This whole "don't even try without asking first OOCly." is silly.  

The last two of these are general RP rules, not healer specific.

The rest of it is overreaching and the constant attempts to push pre-permissive and OOC nature of things like this is part of, in my opinion, what's killed open / living world RP in MMO's today.

This concept of having to ask OOC permission before your character would attempt to do something your character would do is... nonsensical in my opinion.  You just have to accept that it might not work or you might get in IC trouble for attempting to do so.  IE:  The event organizers ICly might jump down your throat for running into the field and attempting to do someone else's job.  You might get ICly barred from the establishment.  This is 100% all right, it's part of accepting responsibility for your actions.  That is part of role play that this OOC pre-permissive side of things kills in it's attempt to eliminate any unexpected character conflict.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now.  As someone who's successfully played a healer for a decade in 'that other game' without complaint* things like this manifesto bother me.  If people understand point 1, 2, and 3, everything works out.  To take the example in the the opening of the manifesto... if you trample over someone else, or interrupt someone else's work on an injured person be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions.   For everyone else, deal with it ICly cause consequences make conflict.  That's where the real character growth and role-play opportunities come from.  It isn't from emoting about flesh knitting together under the blue-white glow of curative magics.  That gets about as dull as emoting about a right hook for the 100th time.

~ Erah'sae.

 

* - Other then some unrelated things... IE: I refused to let my healer be a 'quick fix' solution.  there was no 'cast a heal spell and fix everything' solution with him.  I firmly believe that healing should take time and there should always be a price -someone- has to pay to get around natural healing.  Healers get a lot of flack for not being the solution some people think they should be to all their woes.

[Erah'sae]

Something I forgot in the above, as far as organizations with their own healers go... I used to help run the Limonsian Fight Club, we had healers on staff.  On nights when there were 30+ combatants people would jump in to heal things from time to time, and OOCly that was 100% all right.  The just often ICly had that person in the Maelstrom or Yellow Jacket uniform may walk up to tell them to bugger off or spend time in the gaol.  (read: IC actions beget IC repercussions.)

That sort of thing spawned RP that got us our two backup healers for the rare days when Krick couldn't be around as well.

Please jump in; please act as your character would.  Please deal with the results of the actions.  Spontaneous RP is awesome.  I wish there was more of it these days.

[Gegenji]

13 minutes ago, Erah'sae said:

Don't write the effects of your actions, leave that to those you are attempting to effect.  Fail in this and you're godmodding."

"...

* - Other then some unrelated things... IE: I refused to let my healer be a 'quick fix' solution.  there was no 'cast a heal spell and fix everything' solution with him.  I firmly believe that healing should take time and there should always be a price -someone- has to pay to get around natural healing.  Healers get a lot of flack for not being the solution some people think they should be to all their woes.

Not to devalue your point - which is very fair in regards to accepting IC repercussions for IC actions and promoting more spontaneous RP but...

These two bits here seem in conflict with each other. You're effectively saying to not dictate how well the healing works, and then in a sidebar mention how you were dictating how your healing works. For true player agency, if the person being healed wants to have the heal patch everything up, isn't that their prerogative? It's personal preference to want to spend time recovering, and - while I do agree there's merit and value in RPing that recovery, I've done it myself - isn't it just as bad to declare your heal a 'quick fix' when the person being healed doesn't want it to be?

[Erah'sae]

19 minutes ago, Gegenji said:

Not to devalue your point - which is very fair in regards to accepting IC repercussions for IC actions and promoting more spontaneous RP but...

These two bits here seem in conflict with each other. You're effectively saying to not dictate how well the healing works, and then in a sidebar mention how you were dictating how your healing works. For true player agency, if the person being healed wants to have the heal patch everything up, isn't that their prerogative? It's personal preference to want to spend time recovering, and - while I do agree there's merit and value in RPing that recovery, I've done it myself - isn't it just as bad to declare your heal a 'quick fix' when the person being healed doesn't want it to be?

You do have some control over when and how you cast your healing magics.  If my character doesn't cast them, they can't take effect.  It's more a thing of saying  "Yes, I can fix that curse, but the magics will require their 'pound of flesh'.  Get me this to use as a reagent, and we'll work something out."  or  "No, I'm sorry, I can't fix your missing leg.  My magics can't do that." and people getting disgruntled that I wouldn't have the character cast a 'cure 2' or some such and make it all go away.

But emoting something to the effect of trying to staunch the bleeding of a severed limb and having the actor go "And my legs back now" is akin to someone patting another on the back and that person emoting the response as a shove hard enough to put them through the wall breaking several bones in the process.   

There's a level of godmodding that can go both ways.  There is a certain amount of grace in accepting anothers stated intent that needs to be done.

 

Edited February 16, 2018 by Erah'sae
Clarity.

[Gegenji]

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. You're describing your healing with an intended effect, but not insisting that would be it - allowing the person being healed to determine how effective the healing is at just doing that, rather than go off and have it do whatever they want it to independent of your intentions. Just like you can describe the intent of the attack, but it's still on the defender to decide to whether they take it and how they take it.

To be fair, I also wasn't even thinking to the degree of "severed limb" either. I was thinking on the more low-key healing like... "This will close the wound, but you'll feel sore for a few days"-level type stuff. Since that technically is dictating how the healed target is going to feel, you know? Not letting the person being healed decide whether or not they're going to feel sore. It just seems more exaggerated in inane when you jump to "severed limb" territory.

I guess I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate on the situation? I'm not quite sure anymore.

Edited February 16, 2018 by Gegenji

[Erah'sae]

5 minutes ago, Gegenji said:

Ah, okay, that makes more sense. You're describing your healing with an intended effect, but not insisting that would be it - allowing the person being healed to determine how effective the healing is at just doing that, rather than go off and have it do whatever they want it to independent of your intentions.

I wasn't even thinking to the degree of "severed limb." I was thinking on the more low-key healing like... "This will close the wound, but you'll feel sore for a few days"-level type stuff. Since that technically is dictating how the healed target is going to feel, you know? Not in a bad way, mind, but it's still technically doing the same thing.

I guess I'm mostly just playing Devil's Advocate on the situation?

I'm all good with that.  Questions challenging like that make me think and improve my understanding of the topic.   I also really enjoy discussing the mechanics of RP on a high level.

And I guess you could say exactly that, as long as you say it, and not force the response.  I did often OOCly whisper folks he healed with a "Just a heads up, he's only trained in field triage so the healing may be imprecise or hurt a lot more than normal.  Do as you will with that though!" and let them run with it.

Forcing the response to the soreness is where you get into a sticky situation as what hurts for one person doesn't necessarily hurt for another.  There's a rather interesting discussion of what 'pain' really is we could get into but I fear we'd stray too far off topic.
 

[Andromeda]

As for speed and reliability, I usually play it off as most healing magic is the "get you back on you feet and fighting" stuff and actual repair takes a while and often several sessions. I also will put limits on how much can be healed in a short time if I think people are leaning too heavily on my magic to stay on their feet.

As for what magical healing can do, I'm on mobile so I don't have the link but there is a great video on Fallout lore about the science of sci fi healing that applies pretty well here too. Let me see if I can... Aha! Though content warning for language there.

[LiadansWhisper]

Eh.

I simply ask the other player what they want to have happen. And whatever that is, that is what happens.  Because they control their character.

[Tregarde]

When I started reading this thread I was rather surprised at what I was seeing. I've never seen backlash against healers like this in other games, I've even RP'd healers. But I can easily imagine how it only takes a few bad experiences to create a lot of animosity - certainly seen that happen to other kinds of RP before.

To me there's a huge difference between what the game mechanics can do, what our characters can do realistically. By game mechanics someone can be on the edge of death, even die, over and over again in the span of minutes, and with a good healer around they get right back into the fray. "Oh, you have broken bones, ruptured organs and internal bleeding? It's amazing you're still standing. *snaps fingers*  Okay, you're fixed. NEXT!"

Not the most interesting way to RP healing.

I've always RPd healers as having limits. Even the most powerful spell doesn't 'fix' everything instantly. It takes time, and more severe the injuries the longer it takes. Bones take even longer. Sometimes, when dealing with major injuries, the best my healer can do is close up wounds so the bleeding stops so the person doesn't die - essentially 'stable but critical condition' - and my healer will be exhausted for a while.

A perfect example was in one of the Guild Wars 2 novels where one character had a broken wrist, and other who is a Guardian (essentially a D&D paladin) tells him he can fix the wrist, but it will take several sessions and he will need to rest in between them. So at least in GW2 that is lore, that is how it works. While I'm new to FF14, I'd bet that any official lore that features healing, it's not instant-fix-all either.

Even with smaller injuries, my healers typically end a session with something like, "okay, I've done what I can. It'll be sore for while. You'll have a scar, but it won't be bad."  If anything, I've had more issues with someone RPing their character jumping back up, perfectly healthy, before I've hardly begun to describe what my healer is doing.

As with most RP, good communication is key. We're here to have fun. I do try to communicate when something my character does something that can impact someone else - I want to support RP, not take it over. As long as we keep communication open and are willing to work with people, there's no reason we can't get past the stigma some have against healers (or other RP)

[Nevivi Nevi]

On 2/16/2018 at 6:02 AM, Erah'sae said:

Ye gods, there's so much in this post I don't agree with.  It tries to get the jist of it right but goes way too far.  I'm going to get on a soapbox and rant a little here.   This "manifesto" is part of the reason the concept of the living world and open RP had died.  It's a response to the 'fear' of someone doing something unplanned without realizing the simple fact that only you have control over what happens to your character.

Here's my version manifesto as a roleplayer.  It covers healers, the physically violent, and anything else.

"Only you control what happens to your character.  You are the master of your own fate (if you want to be.)"
"If you attempt to do something ICly, deal with the the IC repercussions of your actions."
"You don't have to RP topics you as a player don't feel comfortable with.  Don't try and make others do this either."
"Don't write the effects of your actions, leave that to those you are attempting to effect.  Fail in this and you're godmodding."
"Keep IC IC and OOC  OOC."

That's it... That covers just about anything.  

In short... Don't write the effects of your healing for the inflicted, that's god-modding.
Just like you can swing a right hook at anyone and they don't have to take it, you can try any healing you like and it doesn't have to work. 

This whole "don't even try without asking first OOCly." is silly.  

The last two of these are general RP rules, not healer specific.

The rest of it is overreaching and the constant attempts to push pre-permissive and OOC nature of things like this is part of, in my opinion, what's killed open / living world RP in MMO's today.

This concept of having to ask OOC permission before your character would attempt to do something your character would do is... nonsensical in my opinion.  You just have to accept that it might not work or you might get in IC trouble for attempting to do so.  IE:  The event organizers ICly might jump down your throat for running into the field and attempting to do someone else's job.  You might get ICly barred from the establishment.  This is 100% all right, it's part of accepting responsibility for your actions.  That is part of role play that this OOC pre-permissive side of things kills in it's attempt to eliminate any unexpected character conflict.

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox now.  As someone who's successfully played a healer for a decade in 'that other game' without complaint* things like this manifesto bother me.  If people understand point 1, 2, and 3, everything works out.  To take the example in the the opening of the manifesto... if you trample over someone else, or interrupt someone else's work on an injured person be ready to deal with the consequences of your actions.   For everyone else, deal with it ICly cause consequences make conflict.  That's where the real character growth and role-play opportunities come from.  It isn't from emoting about flesh knitting together under the blue-white glow of curative magics.  That gets about as dull as emoting about a right hook for the 100th time.

~ Erah'sae.

 

* - Other then some unrelated things... IE: I refused to let my healer be a 'quick fix' solution.  there was no 'cast a heal spell and fix everything' solution with him.  I firmly believe that healing should take time and there should always be a price -someone- has to pay to get around natural healing.  Healers get a lot of flack for not being the solution some people think they should be to all their woes.

I think you've kinda missed the point entirely. I'm not saying "never do anything without asking," I'm saying just OOCly communicate if you're even wanted in a scene or not. That's nothing weird, that's just good manners, and for some reason a lot of people playing healers just gloss right over it and will literally shove an already engaged healer out of the way so they can toot their own horn. It's ridiculously prevalent to the point that I cannot even find any healer RPers in my group (or even adjacent to my group if you add friends of friends) that haven't more or less been kicked out of a scene they were already participating in because someone louder and pushier came along.

 

If that's actually how you're defining open world RP, I enthusiastically hope it dies. I will dig it a nice grave with my own hands, even. But I'm pretty sure that's not what you're actually thinking of.

 

I don't care about character conflict, it's great and I'm all about that happening. I'm not too sure where you got the idea that any of this was an IC guide, because it's really not. I care that OOCly healers are given a free pass (or think they are anyway) to start player conflict because their getting to steal a scene and be a Big Damn Hero is more important to them than the ground rules of not being a jerk to people.

 

And yeah, I also play a healer, or I guess used to until I got sick of being burned in three quarters of every RP I participated in. If some of you haven't run into this? Great! I sincerely hope your luck holds out. But sadly there's at least as many people out there playing healers who have had really crap experiences with other healers, and I'm frankly tired of it and don't see why it should be tolerated.

Edited February 21, 2018 by Nevivi Nevi
Phone keyboard betrayed me and wrote nonsense. Fixed the nonsense.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

well it certainly does read like a manifesto, so there's that

[Erah'sae]

7 hours ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

I think you've kinda missed the point entirely. I'm not saying "never do anything without asking," I'm saying just OOCly communicate if you're even wanted in a scene or not.  <snip>

 

It sounds like either a.) you can't deal with someone else being a bit of a brute ICly, or b.) you've got a bad group you're running with.  If your scene is in public you can expect other people in the area to participate.  By having your scene infront of them, you've included them in it.  It seems like you're wanting people to go "Hay, is it OK if I participate in this RP going on right in front of me?" 

If this is in private, a closed scene, then yeah, someone barging in is completely unacceptable unless they've got some reason to be there.  (read: they were invited by another.)  However, if you're doing this out in the open?  Lets say outside Club Crescent or maybe after the Limsa Fight Club?  That's, frankly, silly.   It's really tacky to RP in-front of people and expect them to seek permission to interact in a scene they're already in due to their characters already being there. 

If someone tries to steal the scene and make everything about them, that's not a healer specific thing, that's more a personality thing.  Talk to them, leave them out of the closed scenes where you have control.  If it's out in public RP, and they're shoving their way in you can push back in RP.  It's annoying, yes, but people like that exist out side of game too, you really have to deal with them the same way.   It's no worse then someone trying to but into railroad a discussion, or hog a fight scene.

Now where you're missing entirely of what I'm saying....   Let me paint a picture for you.

 

It's a public club scene (Going to use Crescent since I can more or less anticipate how this might actually go down.)
Asherrean (the character) falls down the stairs (or is pushed, it doesn't matter) and breaks a leg when he hits the ground.
Charging Thunder (the character) sees this, and radios for the house medic to come deal with it and starts clearing everyone away.
For whatever reason, Erah'sae (the character) is right there and decides.  I'm just going to step in and set the bone, start making a split etc.  
The people that are supposed to handle it finally show up, but Erah'sae keeps bullying them out of their way, because his player wants him to be (to use your words) the "Big Damned Hero". 

Charging, being the head of security that she is, has Erah'sae tossed out the door with a "I better not see your face here again."
Scene continues as normal.

 

Now... Erah'sae's player may have had Erah'sae act how his character should have acted.  Maybe it's some clueless attempt at making himself feel important.   That's all-right.  This is an IC action.  It might not be OOC wanted by some folks, but that's the joy of doing stuff in public. 

Charging Thunder, applies the IC repercussion to the IC action.  This is entirely all-right as well.  (probably with less implicit god-modding then in the short example, but I didn't feel like typing all night.)

The result of this is Erah'sae ends up ICly banned from Club Crescent for his actions.  Now, Erah'sae's player needs to  accept this, as the entire exchange was IC. 

 

That's IC action leading to IC repercussions.  point #2 in my list.  The 'healer' doesn't get a 'get out of jail free' card.  But the 'healer's IC jumping the scene gets handled by an IC response.  If the 'healer's player decides to go off OOCly about how they weren't  treated, well, they've broken point #5.  ""Keep IC IC and OOC  OOC."  Tell them to deal with it ICly.  Maybe they can find some way to get back into folk's good graces. (Hey, that's even a RP opportunity!)

 

That sort of scenario is how most scenes I've been in where someone decided to shove others out of the way to be the 'big damn hero' ended up going.  Sometimes there was some OOC screeching by poor RPers who didn't want to deal with the consequences of their characters actions, but that really just marks them as poor RPers anyway.

 

To be honest, it sounds like the more closed RP is more what you need if you don't want to deal with people RPing in manners you don't OOCly agree with.  Yes, some people play really crummy characters.  Yes, people make poor decisions, or their characters do.  

Some people have to be the center of attention (either IC or OOCly).  Just like we have to deal with people like that in real life, we get stuck dealing with people like that in game.

 

I'm not sure where you took my response as IC guide.  That barb seemed a bit out of left field.  Elaborate?
 

[Valence]

Pardon me for saying so, and that is why at first I didn't tell it right away, but this is part of what makes public events insufferable to me. That kind of manifestos and OOC RP police. I understand that players want to bring some order out of good will with a so called RP OOC etiquette above the basics of godmodding, being a general nuisance, etc, but eventually, this is trying to apply usually mostly private OOC RP rules that are usually widely agreed upon and shared by everyone in a close knit private setting, to a public setting where RP styles are night and day and probably more numerous than RPers themselves.

 

I'm a strong believer in free flowing, self regulating RP. RP is about common sense, not manifestos. If my character wants to heal someone because they genuinely feel they can and they are the first ones on the spot, they will do it. If they feel like the current healer is doing a botched job, they will try to take their place or give them direction, and maybe be a general obnoxious nuisance yes. So what? RP characters can't have flaws and be assholes? And if something doesn't fit with me because someone is trying to godmode their way out of the ensuing conflict, then i'll see until what point I can continue to take it and make my own character eat crows, before bowing out if that's what it comes to.

 

And guess what, the more a character proves to be an ass, the more other characters are going to react accordingly. This is all about RP causality.

 

This isn't even a specific healer thing. There is no free pass for healers more than anything else there.

 

These kinds of manifestos tend to make everything asinine and bleached by what people think to be polite etiquette, when it really isn't more than just a way to enforce your RP style upon everyone else in a public setting where they might not share your views on things. If what I usually call "collaborative friendly pve RP" is your thing, then go for it, your manifesto is probably going to work, in a private setting with similarly minded people.

 

Having a lot of tabletop and RP experience now,  I can safely say that I have met 2 types of RPers: the gameplay players, and the character players. I've butted heads a few times with the former that don't put character consistency above all else: they put the group effort above all else, and the result (loot, experience, progress, beating the game and the boss), basically players playing a RPG. The latter will always put their character first, and make them react to whatever happens according to their character, consequences be damned. This can lead to party wipes, to conflict, or anything. And as you can guess, those players tend to be loathed by roleplay groups that try to avoid conflict at all costs because in their mind, every character and player should be following the same etiquette and going toward the same goal: beating the game and the story.

 

It's the same thing than if I showed up with a lore manifesto and told everyone to shut the fuck up and stop playing things out of the bonds of the lore because I think this is the polite thing to do, the ultimate RP etiquette. How do you think various groups are going to answer to that in a public setting?

Edited February 21, 2018 by Valence

[Nevivi Nevi]

20 hours ago, Erah'sae said:

 

It sounds like either a.) you can't deal with someone else being a bit of a brute ICly, or b.) you've got a bad group you're running with.  If your scene is in public you can expect other people in the area to participate.  By having your scene infront of them, you've included them in it.  It seems like you're wanting people to go "Hay, is it OK if I participate in this RP going on right in front of me?" 

 

 

I mean, a.) I can actually, b.) I'm running with a pretty great group of friends, but attempting to RP outside of it is just unpleasant if I'm on my healer ex-main, and I've pretty well summed up why already. Just because you can see someone doing something isn't an invitation to join. And you're right, the thing it seems like I want people to do is exactly the thing I want people to do.

 

21 hours ago, Erah'sae said:

If this is in private, a closed scene, then yeah, someone barging in is completely unacceptable unless they've got some reason to be there.  (read: they were invited by another.)  However, if you're doing this out in the open?  Lets say outside Club Crescent or maybe after the Limsa Fight Club?  That's, frankly, silly.   It's really tacky to RP in-front of people and expect them to seek permission to interact in a scene they're already in due to their characters already being there. 

If someone tries to steal the scene and make everything about them, that's not a healer specific thing, that's more a personality thing.  Talk to them, leave them out of the closed scenes where you have control.  If it's out in public RP, and they're shoving their way in you can push back in RP.  It's annoying, yes, but people like that exist out side of game too, you really have to deal with them the same way.   It's no worse then someone trying to but into railroad a discussion, or hog a fight scene.

 

So...is everything just up for grabs if it's not inside a private house, then? Because that's equally silly. It's magical pretend time. Just because your ingame coordinates are near someone else's doesn't mean your character is necessarily ICly there for any number of meta reasons. If, as a hypothetical, I were having a duel or something and it was a major moment that I'd been building up to, and someone showed up intent on getting into a plot-heavy scene that they have no relation to, I'd say it's a lot tackier on their part to not be able to read the mood and mind their own business. If they persisted after being OOCly asked to knock it off, I'd just blacklist and continue. Nobody's under any obligation to have to RP with anybody. I honestly do not see how this is at all controversial.

 

Alternately maybe two different groups happen to go RP the same day in the same place but don't want to interact for whatever reason, so they just canonically aren't there at the same time and carry on around each other. No big deal.

 

By this logic, I'd better never leave my house unless I want to be fair game, no matter what kind of arc I might have going or what kind of intention I have with RP, and if I do go in public, I'd better RP entirely in party or tells and never /em anything that anyone else can read, or they're auto-invited to get in on it. Which is also, frankly, silly.

 

21 hours ago, Erah'sae said:

Now where you're missing entirely of what I'm saying....   Let me paint a picture for you.

 

[a scene ensues]

 

No, I get that. And what I'm saying is it's Charging's call as to how she wants to handle her own event (assuming she's running it for simplicity's sake, I admit I don't know Crescent's inner workings past recognizing most of the main crew). If she does want to handle it completely ICly? Cool, whatever, that's a decision she's made. If she decided not to OOCly tolerate someone's behavior and asked them to straight up leave? She's running an event on her property. I don't like the universal assumption that the only acceptable way to handle something that might be OOCly rustling people's jimmies is to deal ICly, and anything else is just inferior somehow.

 

21 hours ago, Erah'sae said:

It might not be OOC wanted by some folks, but that's the joy of doing stuff in public.

 

The thing you have described is the literal opposite of joy.

 

21 hours ago, Erah'sae said:

To be honest, it sounds like the more closed RP is more what you need if you don't want to deal with people RPing in manners you don't OOCly agree with.  Yes, some people play really crummy characters.  Yes, people make poor decisions, or their characters do.  

Some people have to be the center of attention (either IC or OOCly).  Just like we have to deal with people like that in real life, we get stuck dealing with people like that in game.

 

I'm not sure where you took my response as IC guide.  That barb seemed a bit out of left field.  Elaborate?

 

See, you're still thinking that my problem is people behaving poorly IC. I RP with plenty of people who play assholes. I play at least one too. That's not even remotely my issue. My entire problem is that people play asshole characters like a weapon regardless of how it affects other people's experiences, and that kind of thing drives people away hard. If you're RPing a jerk, or an antagonist, or a just plain ICly unlikeable character, that can totally be done in a way that people OOCly appreciate, and not a way that makes them want to OOCly smack you. Which involves communication, and respect, and not Kool-Aid manning into everywhere regardless of people's plans -- literally the thing I said way back up there.

 

I apologize if anything seemed like a barb, that wasn't my intent and text doesn't convey tone well, but I still can't help but think we're not quite on the same level here re: IC vs OOC. You seem to be treating IC as much more, I don't know, inviolable? than I do. I would much rather treat OOC as more important, and IC interaction as a secondary effect of OOC interaction, even if that interaction is as short as "/t Firstname Lastname hey, mind if I join?" Which I cannot fathom being so onerous to type that people just can't ever be expected to do it.

 

21 hours ago, Valence said:

Having a lot of tabletop and RP experience now,  I can safely say that I have met 2 types of RPers: the gameplay players, and the character players. I've butted heads a few times with the former that don't put character consistency above all else: they put the group effort above all else, and the result (loot, experience, progress, beating the game and the boss), basically players playing a RPG. The latter will always put their character first, and make them react to whatever happens according to their character, consequences be damned. This can lead to party wipes, to conflict, or anything. And as you can guess, those players tend to be loathed by roleplay groups that try to avoid conflict at all costs because in their mind, every character and player should be following the same etiquette and going toward the same goal: beating the game and the story.

 

So here's a question: what makes either group better than the other, to you? I've got a fair amount of tabletop experience and have seen my share of both, and while I don't enjoy super individualistic 'my guy would do this and I don't care if that hecks up everyone else's plans' types, they have their right to do their thing with a group that rolls that way without me getting on their case about it. But that's conditional on with a group that rolls that way. I have definitely been DM for a cooperative group and had that one individualistic player who continually derailed the plot and several times almost walked out of it. Because we had an established group dynamic that wasn't that, it was disruptive and caused no end of frustration. If we'd been an individualistic group with a single cooperative player, they'd be just as out of place. The point is that it affects everyone's enjoyment because of a lack of communication on what everyone actually wants out of their time.

 

And if you go back and read it more critically the entire thing hinges on communicating OOC expectations. That is basically all I've said multiple different ways.

[LiadansWhisper]

35 minutes ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

 

So...is everything just up for grabs if it's not inside a private house, then? Because that's equally silly. It's magical pretend time. Just because your ingame coordinates are near someone else's doesn't mean your character is necessarily ICly there for any number of meta reasons. If, as a hypothetical, I were having a duel or something and it was a major moment that I'd been building up to, and someone showed up intent on getting into a plot-heavy scene that they have no relation to, I'd say it's a lot tackier on their part to not be able to read the mood and mind their own business. If they persisted after being OOCly asked to knock it off, I'd just blacklist and continue. Nobody's under any obligation to have to RP with anybody. I honestly do not see how this is at all controversial.

 

His examples were both public events in public places.  i.e. if you're there, you're already attending a public event.  In such situations, you'd be kind of a douche if you tried to treat it like it was your own private event.  People would probably start ignoring your RP, tbh.

[Erah'sae]

6 hours ago, Nevivi Nevi said:

I mean, a.) I can actually, b.) I'm running with a pretty great group of friends, but attempting to RP outside of it is just unpleasant if I'm on my healer ex-main, and I've pretty well summed up why already. Just because you can see someone doing something isn't an invitation to join. And you're right, the thing it seems like I want people to do is exactly the thing I want people to do.

 

I'll leave off the quote for the other stuff.

 

I think you've summed up yourself completely.  You want to intrude on other people's freedom of play in public and make sure that everything others have their character do is OK by you and yours first.  Frankly, you're going to have to get used to that's not the way RP (or anything really) in public venues works.  
 

Private doesn't necessarily mean your house, do your private stuff where other people aren't.  That could be out in the field, out in some private corner of the cities.  Even then you have to accept that others might end up wandering into the same place.  The world isn't your stage, it's a shared venue.  Now if your group is there -first-.  You are well within your right to say OOCly.  "Hey, this is a private/closed scene, do you mind ignoring us?"  And that's perfectly fine, most people will acquiesce and move on.  

 

Take your duel for example.  There is no way for someone outside to know this is a private "major moment that you'd been building up to" because they're not you, they're not mind readers.  They see RP in a public venue and react to RP in a public venue.  

 

A general rule about establishing social contracts that have successfully governed most public interactions.  This is the rule of lowest impact.  This is what makes things work vs get ignored.  They -have- to have the smallest footprint possible.  You having to say "Hey, this is a private scene." and doing your private scenes, you know... in private... or at least outside of the established public venues impinges on far fewer people then expecting the entire world to ask -everyone- else before they interact with someone not in their private group while in a public shared venue.  The reason for this is mostly because any 'rule' won't be known by the majority of actors in a public environment and it's just a social contract.  To get any sort of success you have to deal with what you have control over.

 

Like you've said, playing with random other people who don't fit your personal worldview is the exact opposite of joy for you, so simply... Don't do it?  Don't treat public venues like private ones and places where open RP is going on (read: most public venues) as your private space?

 

I'm going to quote one other bit....

Quote

"I would much rather treat OOC as more important, and IC interaction as a secondary effect of OOC interaction, even if that interaction is as short as "/t Firstname Lastname hey, mind if I join?" Which I cannot fathom being so onerous to type that people just can't ever be expected to do it."

 

That's where you're going to run into problems.   Saying "Hey, this is private, we'd rather not have anyone else involved." impacts a much smaller subset of "everyone" than literally "everyone."  Your desires require -everyone- to change, where realistically you can get the same effect, and find what you want in your scenes by being the one who changes.  The general rule of 'lowest impact' applies here.    

 

It's frankly rude and, forgive me for this but there's no other way to say it, ignorant to expect everyone else to change to your desires.

 

 

 

[Valence]

The thing is pretty simple: if you're doing our own private thing with your own private rules, then use party chat. If you use local chat for various other reasons (more than 8 people being the main eye sore with the game chat system), then just tell intruders that it's private or whatever, depending on how they intrude, or else really. 

 

If you're doing something in a public event or venue, and it's not your event, it's also very simple: you aren't entitled to who can react and who cannot react to what your characters do here. Unless the whole group suddenly decides suddenly to back you up or something, you're basically just throwing an OOC tantrum cause things don't go your way. If you're into very scripted, rigid storylines and scenarii that don't mesh well with impromptu and the unexpected, then don't show up to public events because they are the epitome of this. And if you are the organizer of said public event and wish to impose your own restrictive rules, that's your own right, but make sure everyone is warned before entering though (though I really have a hard time how you would even do that without making your event semi private or private anyway).

 

This is also why I have no shame in saying that I don't show up to public or semi public events, or even roleplay a lot with foreigners without proper OOC introduction and feel because I'm unable to deal with widely different views on lore and RP style, and what I'm looking for into RP. I'm a nitpicky prick and plainly admit it. 

 

I also don't get how it's such a bad thing that someone is "stealing" the spotlight off your character though. Someone barges in for whatever reason? So what? "NO YOU CAN'T BECAUSE THIS IS MY HEALING MINE ALONE!" Sorry for the hyperbole, but that's exactly how it sounds.

 

Now then, don't get me wrong, I actually believe that OOC communication be important, and that politely asking before barging in or doing something can be healthy depending on the context. Like, "I'm going to make my character enter with a bomb, is that okay with the organizers if nobody can't stop it and it blows up"? I mean totally. You're just turning the whole event into something else, yours. But... "is it okay if my character shows up and start berating yours for healing poorly?" or "is it okay if my character tries to help by healing because that's what they would spontaneously do?" being bad? Really? And then what? "Is that okay if my character assists yours with their gun to kill the bad guy here?" No, because they can't steal your spotlight?

 

Quote

So here's a question: what makes either group better than the other, to you? I've got a fair amount of tabletop experience and have seen my share of both, and while I don't enjoy super individualistic 'my guy would do this and I don't care if that hecks up everyone else's plans' types, they have their right to do their thing with a group that rolls that way without me getting on their case about it. But that's conditional on with a group that rolls that way. I have definitely been DM for a cooperative group and had that one individualistic player who continually derailed the plot and several times almost walked out of it. Because we had an established group dynamic that wasn't that, it was disruptive and caused no end of frustration. If we'd been an individualistic group with a single cooperative player, they'd be just as out of place. The point is that it affects everyone's enjoyment because of a lack of communication on what everyone actually wants out of their time.

 

And if you go back and read it more critically the entire thing hinges on communicating OOC expectations. That is basically all I've said multiple different ways.

 

Nothing makes one or the other better. One is gameplay-roleplay oriented, the other is character-roleplay oriented. I just have my own tastes on the matter and prefer the latter for its realism, unpredictability and focus on characters instead of goals, and as a GM this is also my view on things: I always try to offer a lot of hooks for players to have their own characters have different goals or put their difference of ideals into practice. No conflict is stale and boring and doesn't spur character development, and this is also true in most stories. This is just a personal opinion. Now that I have more experience too I can also detect better when one or more people of the other group is part of the experience before it festers.

 

But no, I guess I prefer not to go back so I can stay on the superficial and shallow way I read the entire thing.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Valence