Primal Slayers IC

[Havoc Snow]

So a question came up among my FC about how to handle slaying Primals IC, and ultimately using their parts to make furniture for your house, especially in the case of IC company housing. For me I see no issue with claiming to have slain a Primal IC, so long as you keep from claiming you have slain THE Ifrit, instead of merely claiming to have slain him one of the times he was Summoned. However I can see how some may view this with skepticism because they are raid bosses and they are a major part of the lore, so some may not want to tie them to your storyline (even peripherally).

 

The way I see things, no matter how many times you slay a Primal the Beastmen can always bring them back, so just because you killed him does not mean that a week from now say Ifrit won't just pop back up another company will need to go out and take care of him. In a way they are canon respawning NMs. Before I introduce the concept to my FC however and we go forth under the assumption that the Blades have at one point in time fought and beat the Primals, I wanted some input from other members (particularly FC/LS leaders) on how you feel about the subject.

 

Do you think it's safe to say Primals can be defeated ICly since they'll always come back, or would you feel it's too mary sue to do that?

[Martiallais]

While I think (with an accompanying epic tale) it's okay to say you've fought a primal (and no, not just you alone, I mean a large group of people when I say you) and beaten them back one of many times...I would (personally) say it's a bit much to IC-ly have the primal furniture.

 

Primals are supposed to be a realistically terrifying thing that trained magic users (summoners) are only able to control a fraction of. When normal, non-adventuring types encounter primals, they're forever changed and have to effectively be 'put down' as it were. So, I'd think housing a trophy piece of a creature like that, while it might make a great talking centerpiece, would kind of serve to downplay the very real threat they present to everyone they come into contact with.

[YesGood]

While I think (with an accompanying epic tale) it's okay to say you've fought a primal (and no, not just you alone, I mean a large group of people when I say you) and beaten them back one of many times...I would (personally) say it's a bit much to IC-ly have the primal furniture.

 

Primals are supposed to be a realistically terrifying thing that trained magic users (summoners) are only able to control a fraction of. When normal, non-adventuring types encounter primals, they're forever changed and have to effectively be 'put down' as it were. So, I'd think housing a trophy piece of a creature like that, while it might make a great talking centerpiece, would kind of serve to downplay the very real threat they present to everyone they come into contact with.

 

 I have to agree with Zarek. I mean, I'm thinking of people with stuffed predators in their houses and I could see why it would bring them some sense of pride or something... but a Primal isn't a lion or a tiger or a bear (oh my!).

 

 You're also desecrating what's virtually a god to the beastmen, terrible as they may be. There might be some people who'd appreciate such a thing but it seems you wouldn't want to remind all of your FC or LS members who they might've lost or what they might've sacrificed in defeating a Primal.

 

 Another thing- I'm not sure about the summoned Primals, but if it were summoned and it wasn't -THE- Ifrit, wouldn't it... dissolve or something? I'm assuming there's like one Ifrit and when they summon it, it's merely an aspect of the same Ifrit, but then, I guess there must be numerous Carbuncles and such.

 

I'm really just not sure about that so I'd like some clarification if anyone has it.

[Dravus]

It's better to claim that your character was part of a large force assaulting the minions of a primal rather than portraying someone who was part of the elite strike force that managed to kill one of the higher beings themselves.

 

This is an MMO, meaning there's literally hundreds of other role-players to consider for potential interaction. No role-player is deserving of being given the right to claim that their character is somehow much more powerful than everyone else's and has numerous feats reserved for faceless/nameless heroes in the canon lore under their own belt.

 

Sure, they can be revived but bringing them back is a lengthy and usually quite a costly ritual for their worshippers and servants. Their emergence is seemingly quite rare judging by the main story. It's perfectly possible to tell a compelling story and gain vengeance on a 'big bad' without being the hero of the hour.

[K'nahli]

It's better to claim that your character was part of a large force assaulting the minions of a primal rather than portraying someone who was part of the elite strike force that managed to kill one of the higher beings themselves.

 

This is an MMO, meaning there's literally hundreds of other role-players to consider for potential interaction. No role-player is deserving of being given the right to claim that their character is somehow much more powerful than everyone else's and has numerous feats reserved for faceless/nameless heroes in the canon lore under their own belt.

 

Sure, they can be revived but bringing them back is a lengthy and usually quite a costly ritual for their worshippers and servants. Their emergence is seemingly quite rare judging by the main story. It's perfectly possible to tell a compelling story and gain vengeance on a 'big bad' without being the hero of the hour.

 

This down to a t. I don't like the idea of a group of ten or even twenty being terribly elite and putting down a beast with that miniscule of a force. Judging from the in-game lore, primals being summoned and appearing is a very serious issue and not a common one. If they were that easy to dispatch then no-one would care as much as to give them that much more recognition than a large bandit, pirate or beastman raid.

 

I don't agree with the "they can be re-summoned" excuse either. Its beginning to sound like these oh-so terrifying primals are being treated with the same regard as city rodents or something that come around every few days or weeks.

 

"Oh for God's sake, Ifrit is at the bins again".

 

?

[Ildur]

In the case of furniture made with body parts of the Primals, I'd say that's impossible physically. As far as I recall, the Primals vanish after they die, so there would be no body left to butcher.

 

However, you can still have that furniture ICly. The justification for their existence is that they aren't made with a piece of the Primal. Maybe there's a carpenter, sculptor or what have you out there with a weird sense of aesthetics that uses the Primals as his inspiration.

 

On the matter of slaying of Primals IC, I'd say that's possible but probably not a very good idea. Later on in the storyline, you meet a group of adventurers who slayed Titan. They are quite famous in-universe, so slaying a Primal is no small feat. What's more, in the main storyline you, the player, are considered quite an extraordinary fellow for having defeated Ifrit. There's also the matter of tempering Zarek mentioned (which, by the way, to be tempered the Primal has to directly try to do so: it's not enough to be in their pressence). Only users of the Echo or those tempered by another Primal are immune to it.

Unless it's a a cover operation (meaning maybe no one but your group knows about it), I would suggest against Primal slaying in-character. Even if the lore supports the idea of slaying the Primals multiple times, there's the implication that you should become pretty damn famous for that.

[Havoc Snow]

Bare in mind too that the trophies are not like stuffed Ifrits or anything. The Ifrit trophy is a fireplace with Ifrits horns for example, so it's hardly belittling the might or significance of the Primals.

[YesGood]

Bare in mind too that the trophies are not like stuffed Ifrits or anything. The Ifrit trophy is a fireplace with Ifrits horns for example, so it's hardly belittling the might or significance of the Primals.

 

I assumed as much-- No idea where anyone would find the room! But as stated above, the Primals disperse. And while I wouldn't have put one or two of the points above the same way, I'm forced to agree.

 

Can you kill Primals ICly? Yes, in a very, very large group under the right circumstances. Probably not just one FC or LS but the combined efforts of many. I think this is the equivalent of killing the Lich King in the notoriety you would receive after accomplishing such a feat-- People should know about you if you've done it.

 

Should you make embellishments to your company house with Primal parts? Probably not, as cool as it would be. They're just not like Naga or young drakes or anything like that.

[Lost River]

All fairness aside, it's possible. Does it have to be inhumanly large size group? No. A large gathering, one suitable for killing a boss. Yes. I'd say, 24+ people. Like the raid for Crystal Tower. It'd also make sense if you had a trophy. Can the Primal be killed over and over? Sure it can! It's a summoned being, it makes it's flesh from aether. So yes, you can have multiple people killing it over and over again.

 

 

Will that tarnish some meaning? It may if you want permanency, but it also makes it that much dire. With each killing, you lose more people. Be it either slain to the Primal or Tempered by it. It's as some NPCs say. A war of attrition and one you're losing!

[Martiallais]

In the case of furniture made with body parts of the Primals, I'd say that's impossible physically. As far as I recall, the Primals vanish after they die, so there would be no body left to butcher.

 

However, you can still have that furniture ICly. The justification for their existence is that they aren't made with a piece of the Primal. Maybe there's a carpenter, sculptor or what have you out there with a weird sense of aesthetics that uses the Primals as his inspiration.

I agree with both these points. The furniture one is actually a really good idea!

[Havoc Snow]

Why would it require a massive group of multiple FCs and adventurers if the Company of Heroes managed to defeat Titan with only 4-5 people?

[LiadansWhisper]

Why would it require a massive group of multiple FCs and adventurers if the Company of Heroes managed to defeat Titan with only 4-5 people?

 

 

If you've done the main storyline and encountered them, then I'm surprised you don't remember that several of them mention very clearly that it wasn't  just 4-5 of them.  Those are the ones who survived.  They had many, many more people as part of their Company, but the vast majority died in the process of downing Titan.

 

 

Edited to put spoiler tags! Sorry should have thought of that first.

[Corin Winterborne]

It's better to claim that your character was part of a large force assaulting the minions of a primal rather than portraying someone who was part of the elite strike force that managed to kill one of the higher beings themselves.

 

This is an MMO, meaning there's literally hundreds of other role-players to consider for potential interaction. No role-player is deserving of being given the right to claim that their character is somehow much more powerful than everyone else's and has numerous feats reserved for faceless/nameless heroes in the canon lore under their own belt.

 

Sure, they can be revived but bringing them back is a lengthy and usually quite a costly ritual for their worshippers and servants. Their emergence is seemingly quite rare judging by the main story. It's perfectly possible to tell a compelling story and gain vengeance on a 'big bad' without being the hero of the hour.

 

 

I don't agree with the "they can be re-summoned" excuse either.

 

Except for the fact that it's lore when you have a storyline quest re-summoning the primals that you have already defeated.  You may disagree with it, but it's lore that primals CAN be resummoned after being defeated.

 

 

Sure, they can be revived but bringing them back is a lengthy and usually quite a costly ritual for their worshippers and servants.

 

 

 

I'm not sure how far you've gotten into the story, but it's shown that it's not always a long drawn out case as shown after defeating Garuda.

 

 

Also, from a Lore perspective, Summoners can only summon the Egi of primals that they've bested in combat. Unless you're practically willing to write a whole Job into practical extinction, we're going to have to find some way to make it work.

 

I think it's explained that we're not fighting "THE" primal, just a physical/aetheric manifestation of the Primal. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that everyone who wants to have defeated a primal IC, can find a way to have defeated a primal IC.

[LiadansWhisper]

I don't agree with the "they can be re-summoned" excuse either. Its beginning to sound like these oh-so terrifying primals are being treated with the same regard as city rodents or something that come around every few days or weeks.

 

"Oh for God's sake, Ifrit is at the bins again".

 

?

 

 

As Nate pointed out, unfortunately the Lore in the game doesn't agree with you.  Not only are you told that the Immortal Flames are fighting a losing war of attrition with the Amalj'aa, who are repeatedly summoning Ifrit (and this is costing the Immortal Flames more men than they can afford to spare), but in the level 44 quest where you fight Garuda, Garuda summons Ifrit and Titan and tries to eat them.  So, while I understand that you may think it's silly, the fact remains that per the Lore in the game itself, they are capable of being summoned repeatedly.  And have been summoned repeatedly in some cases (Ifrit apparently being the most-often summoned by his followers).

 

[Dravus]

Even with the ability for a primal to be summoned more than once it's still something that is considered to be a pretty big deal given that the entirety of a city state's forces is usually on alert when it happens. I could claim that J'hared was one of very few heroes to take down Ifrit last week but it'd make for a bland, predictable story and wouldn't be fair on everyone else.

 

Simply put, anyone who insists on being the hero might as well just invest in writing fan-fiction instead. It may seem harsh, but nothing justifies putting one's character that far ahead of everyone else's - you can get a similar effect without ruffling everyone's feathers by claiming to have been part of a larger force assaulting a primal or by having your character eliminate a leader of a beast tribe seeking to summon a primal.

[K'nahli]

I'm afraid to read those replies. How far into the storyline must I be to safely do so?

[Havoc Snow]

I'm afraid to read those replies. How far into the storyline must I be to safely do so?

Beat Garuda then come back and read the spoilers.

 

Though I have to agree that Summoner completely acknowledges that you have defeated the Primals, so at the very least we must acknowledge that anyone who is RPing a Summoner has slayed at least one Primal in their life, if not all three.

[K'nahli]

I'm afraid to read those replies. How far into the storyline must I be to safely do so?

Beat Garuda then come back and read the spoilers.

 

Though I have to agree that Summoner completely acknowledges that you have defeated the Primals, so at the very least we must acknowledge that anyone who is RPing a Summoner has slayed at least one Primal in their life, if not all three.

 

Have yet to do Titan ;; But thank you for your answer.

[Rinh Hallani]

Yes the summoner job isn't easy to dance around. Personally, I've been RPing that Rihn can summon a primal's energy but haven't actually said I've defeated Ifrit or whatever.

[Oroban]

I think it's believable, but only if done right. I mean, I just finished the Company of Heroes questline (I'm right about to fight Titan, oh boy!), and there's what, at least 8 or so of them you meet, with a significant number dead and/or tempered, with the survivors sometimes blind, crippled, or otherwise forcibly retired. Defeating Primals is messy business, to say it in a polite manner. Having to execute a longtime friend after they get tempered is enough to make me walk away from the business, I'd say.

[Swift Nightclaw]

I think it would be more fun to claim to have it and have stories of the battle where it was obtained....with some intentionally placed inconsistencies.  Always leave a little bit of question whether or not it's real or a lie.

 

There's fun to be had spinning tall tales, or having forgeries of items you've heard tale of and claiming they're the real deal.  It's difficult to do right, but if you can play it so it feels believable but also doubtful at the same time, it can be fun. And act overly offended if someone questions the authenticity (but never let them do any close up inspection of the trophy in question!).

[FreelanceWizard]

Because the storyline allows for Primals to be repeatedly summoned and defeated (so having defeated one isn't stepping on others' plots), and because PCs as written by the main scenario quest are a subset of combat-capable characters, I feel it's entirely reasonable to have defeated Primals ICly. Taking down a Primal is not special for PCs, at least not PCs that fall into the category of "have the Echo" (which is a subset of adventurers, who are subset of combat-capable characters, who are subset of PC race characters, who are subset of characters in the world -- PCs are a rare breed, indeed). It is, unfortunately, a war of attrition against a force that has seemingly infinite resources, which is why the Scions and the Garleans alike are both looking for ways to solve the problem once and for all. Clearly, defeating the Primals in battle is not that solution. You may win and minimize the loss of life, but some loss of life or minds is inevitable. Defeating the Primal is only a stopgap measure, and the major threat is not "a Primal might be summoned" but "Primals will be summoned so often that they can't be stopped and ultimately consume all of the Aether." To dismiss this is to toss away a pretty major point of the main scenario quest, IMO.

 

No one who's taking down Primals IC is really claiming to be far ahead of other PCs in power, since by the lore and the quest lines, the option is open to any PC and the ability for one PC to do it doesn't restrict others from doing so (assuming they don't claim to have destroyed the Primal utterly so it can't be resummoned, but that's a whole other problem; defeating a Primal is merely dispersing its physical form).

[BlessedSilence]

 

Do you think it's safe to say Primals can be defeated ICly since they'll always come back, or would you feel it's too mary sue to do that?

 

Too mary sue.

 

For me, they are created by the will and aether.  I mean even when killed they disappear.  So .. how does one take a trophy of the home?  It will be gone the second the primal dies as the essence and will that held it together dissipated.

 

Nah, it's hard enough with everyone saying they defeated Ifrit.  I personally have nothing to do with the main story with my character.

[C'io Behkt]

I'm surprised none of the Summoners have brought this up yet:

 

In the SMN questline, you learn that the Immortal Flames keep a LIST of people who have defeated Ifrit without getting Tempered. (Because you know what happens to those who've been Tempered...) It's not a publicly available list, sure, but it exists. Conceivably, any of the people on that list could become a summoner, and it isn't a stretch for a PC to be on that list, especially for those with the Echo.

 

And just to echo (*cough*), the storyline also points at the Immortal Flames fighting a war of attrition against the Amal'jaa, who are constantly summoning Ifrit. The Ul'dahn primal situation is more unique because of the rich mineral deposits of Thanalan which allow the beastmen to keep conjuring their god with impunity.

 

With that in mind, it's easier for a Summoner to claim rights to Ifrit, but less plausible for one to claim Titan, who appears rarely, and Garuda, who is infinitely more cunning (and craycray).

 

EDIT: Oh, and OBVIOUSLY nobody is going to go and say, "I did it solo," because that's insanity. Everything I've stated above of course requires either an Immortal Flames task force or an elite adventurer group (which, in the canon, also exist in fairly high quantity).

[Lament]

With an IC excuse, I say go for it. But unless you're a summoner, who pretty much needs an IC excuse to actually be one, or otherwise formerly part of a group who would have a reason to have been in the presence of a Primal at some point or another (e.g. part of a tempered community), I'd say skip it.