[Discussion] 'That's offensive!'

[K'nahli]

What I am talking about hardly extends far beyond the in-game foul language though. When I say excessive I don't mean anything grossly graphic. In fact, that'd probably be OOC for him. He'd be borderline lecherous to women in fact which is a good example of how lore-friendly terms can feel even a bit too much coming from my character even if he is horrible like that.

[Vinter]

I think everyone has a right to be offended. What they don't have, however, is the right to never be offended.

If someone is offended by so called "vulgar" language, I can sympathize. But that doesn't give them the right to force their values on anyone else. They just have to find some way to deal with that on their own.

 

My stance on it is that the very notion of "curse" words is such a superstitious medieval concept, it shouldn't even be a consideration in the 21st century. They're not curses, they're expletives you use to enhance the impact of a sentence.

 

Compare:

"There's a train coming towards us!"

to

"Holy shit, there's a goddamn train coming towards us!"

 

As you can tell, the second example has a slightly more urgent tone to it.

I know some people consider swearing a sign of a limited vocabulary. And to that I can only say that that is a fucking farcical and erroneous assertion. Personally, I actually think it's the exact opposite. Swearing allows you the ability to convey a far broader range of emotion than what could be achieved without it.

[Chisae]

My aunt has a magnet that says something like "swearing a sign of a limited mental ability"... or maybe limited vocabulary. Cant remember which... basically you're too stupid to talk properly so you have to swear to fill in the blanks. To which I giggle and remember how the Russians have like four stages of swearing, and you're a god among potty-mouths if you can string enough expletives together (and still make sense) to get to stage four. lol

 

i also agree with Vinter, you can only change words around so much without repeating yourself or just not having enough impact.

[K'nahli]

(Obligatory Apology.... see? I feel bad even using an example.... here!)

 

 

 

That is where lies the problem though. You don't want to ruin someone's time by offending them with the tone of your language but you don't want to be less true to your character or to be unrealistic.

 

Lets create an example(for the record, nothing like my character I mentioned):

 

"Get out of my face, woman. As if I would associate with the likes of you.."

 

versus

 

"Get the fuck out of my face, you tramp. As if I would have affiliation with a diseased-ridden, whore like yourself."

 

 

The second example demonstrates a more harsh and brute-ish personality but could easily be seen as very distasteful to many people. This is where it starts affecting RP. Where do you draw the lines and where should you make exceptions? Allow characters to have more extreme personalities and enhance realism or be more soft for the sake of being as harmless as possible?

 

Softening personalities isn't just about being less realistic either, it also affects interpretations of a character. In the first example there is still room for doubt. Maybe the guy is having a really bad day or has good reason to dislike the person. The second example however leaves me with no sympathy for him and results in me looking down on him as disgusting, same way my characters would.

[Kailia]

Yeah this game most definitely is full of mature language. Like when my female Miqo'te joined the Blacksmithing guild, the guildmaster literally said a line about cuckholding her husband, which she does not have.

 

The profanity filter is on by default, and when actual cusses happen, they get turned into ????. So yeah I don't know why people playing this game would be offended. If they don't like mature language, in a game where npc's use it constantly, especially in Gridania where npc's refer to the matrons Teats and Bosoms. I think they most definitely need to find another game to play.

[K'dath]

I think everyone has a right to be offended. What they don't have, however, is the right to never be offended.

If someone is offended by so called "vulgar" language, I can sympathize. But that doesn't give them the right to force their values on anyone else. They just have to find some way to deal with that on their own.

 

My stance on it is that the very notion of "curse" words is such a superstitious medieval concept, it shouldn't even be a consideration in the 21st century. They're not curses, they're expletives you use to enhance the impact of a sentence.

 

Compare:

"There's a train coming towards us!"

to

"Holy shit, there's a goddamn train coming towards us!"

 

As you can tell, the second example has a slightly more urgent tone to it.

I know some people consider swearing a sign of a limited vocabulary. And to that I can only say that that is a fucking farcical and erroneous assertion. Personally, I actually think it's the exact opposite. Swearing allows you the ability to convey a far broader range of emotion than what could be achieved without it.

I was taught that a lot as a child, that swear words were for people not smart enough to articulate distress in a more civil way. I do find that when I'm in the company of close friends, and I swear more, the range of words I use narrows considerably.

 

A lovely:

"My, see that strapping lad over there? Quite the dapper looking gent if I do say so myself. I wouldn't mind inquiring about his dating parameters and perhaps getting a spot of tea if he's available."

...tends to turn into:

/point "I'd fuck that."

 

It gets the point across, but it just lacks a certain... elegance that I expect from myself. But that's purely for myself. I'd never look down my nose at someone else over such a trifle.

 

As a whole though, I'm inclined to agree. Besides, sometimes the only way to describe something you're witnessing is 'fucked up'.

[Dravus]

I find that I swear much more often when in the company of close friends and family members. I think it's a comfort thing, since I know their limits and they know mine and so there's very rarely any misunderstandings between us.

 

I suppose it's the same online, I tend to type in a very formal manner when on a site such as this, though when in the company of people I've come to know and trust I end up becoming a lot more informal. In regards to role-play itself I'm not opposed to having my characters swear, though only a few of them actually do. Theodric is rather rough around the edges and does it fairly often, whilst my blood elf soldier back in WoW never did as he was conditioned to live and fight for his homeland and very rarely showed his emotions as a result.

[K'dath]

I find that I swear much more often when in the company of close friends and family members. I think it's a comfort thing, since I know their limits and they know mine and so there's very rarely any misunderstandings between us.

 

I suppose it's the same online, I tend to type in a very formal manner when on a site such as this, though when in the company of people I've come to know and trust I end up becoming a lot more informal. In regards to role-play itself I'm not opposed to having my characters swear, though only a few of them actually do. Theodric is rather rough around the edges and does it fairly often, whilst my blood elf soldier back in WoW never did as he was conditioned to live and fight for his homeland and very rarely showed his emotions as a result.

 

ICly my characters rarely swear. I guess because a lot of the environments I find myself playing in don't really call for it so much. In fact... most of them hardly talk at all...

 

My blood elf warlock had a back story and a half. He was rough, weathered, old. He was quiet, made very few facial expressions. There was a scene where he leeeeeeans over the table and with an uncharacteristic undertone of violence whispers "I want you to fucking kill him." And it just made the whole thing a lot more powerful I think. I sound dopey, patting myself on the back like that. It's one of those story lines I, and the people who participated in it, look back and think 'that moment is the moment that defined this.'  The fact that he rarely talked, and never swore, meant shit had officially gotten real.

 

Compared to say... my priest, who was... well... priesty. Very extroverted, helpful, kind, sincere. His life's work was helping people. Even in the darkest parts of his characterization, there was just never a time where any curse really felt organic coming from him. Any attempt to include it sound forced. It just wasn't in the character's vocabulary.

 

X'chail's kinda off on his own world though. He doesn't swear, but it's more of 'he doesn't know how' than any moral or characteristic flaw. He'd be the sort to eaves drop on some colorful conversation, then try to work it into a completely random scenario, pronounce it wrong, and have no idea why everyone was shocked or offended. Still, imagining hard swears coming from him is difficult. He'll probably never really graduate past 'flaming knicker weasels' or the like.

[Talathar Khalynn]

Different people have different thresholds as to what they consider "offensive." That's just life. Everyone has the right to their own opinions, and their own beliefs.

 

Yes, the in-game text and story has mature subjects and the like - but as someone else pointed out, in different countries the game has different age "ratings." So, there are kids playing the game, and whether or not individual players feel that kids playing this game is appropriate, that fact is that they are.

 

Individual LS's and FC's (both IC and OOC) can guide their groups however they want. If they intend to build a "family friendly" environment, then the mods or officers can curb language and subject matter to fit. Players can't control the language developers (or at least translators) put into the game, but they can try to control the language used in their player-created groups.

 

IC'ly, my character Talathar doesn't use "colorful language" because it does not fit her personality as a fairly young, somewhat sheltered, kind-hearted and compassionate healer. She can lose her temper at people, or (try) to bully them for their own good, but she doesn't curse, and tends to avoid hurtful language. If she were to suddenly start cursing everywhere IC'ly in the LS's, I'm pretty sure her IC friends will be immediately concerned. She doesn't much care if/when others curse, unless it's excessive or hurtful.

 

OOC'ly, I tend to ignore or overlook the little things, but will say something if things start getting a bit out there. Or I will remove myself from the situation completely. There's a lot of stuff in the world, and I can always find something better to do than listen to conversations that only make me uncomfortable - I have extended family holiday get-togethers where I am trapped in those kinds of situations already as it is!

[PerkPrincess]

So, looking through this thread and there's a lot of generic talk about people BEING offended, but there's very little talk about what's actually being said that is offensive? Because there's a world of difference between the two, and we should be focusing on what's actually being said before any rational discussion is being had.

 

Like if someone's getting mad when you say fuck, yes, that's a little silly.

 

But if people are offended at you for making a rape joke or making a joke of something massively triggering to someone - then yes, actually, they should be offended and you're kind of a butt for going "DON'T BE OFFENDED."

 

Because - you know. There's some things we should not be making fun of.

[LiadansWhisper]

So, looking through this thread and there's a lot of generic talk about people BEING offended, but there's very little talk about what's actually being said that is offensive? Because there's a world of difference between the two, and we should be focusing on what's actually being said before any rational discussion is being had.

 

Like if someone's getting mad when you say fuck, yes, that's a little silly.

 

But if people are offended at you for making a rape joke or making a joke of something massively triggering to someone - then yes, actually, they should be offended and you're kind of a butt for going "DON'T BE OFFENDED."

 

Because -  you know. There's some things we should not be making fun of.

 

Actually...yeah.  Foul language is one thing.  Rape jokes? That'll send me from 0 to Rage in under 10 seconds!

[K'dath]

So, looking through this thread and there's a lot of generic talk about people BEING offended, but there's very little talk about what's actually being said that is offensive? Because there's a world of difference between the two, and we should be focusing on what's actually being said before any rational discussion is being had.

 

Like if someone's getting mad when you say fuck, yes, that's a little silly.

 

But if people are offended at you for making a rape joke or making a joke of something massively triggering to someone - then yes, actually, they should be offended and you're kind of a butt for going "DON'T BE OFFENDED."

 

Because -  you know. There's some things we should not be making fun of.

 

That's a WHOLE DIFFERENT debate you're opening up there. And one that I've learned simply to never engage in under any circumstance. However...

 

This is something I've been meaning to discuss for a while now, though I figured now is as good a time as any to spark up yet another debate. First things first, though, let me clear something up: this isn't a thread aimed to excuse genuinely offensive behaviour or commentary that far exceeds anything shown in the game itself. This is a thread intended to try and understand why quite a few players feel offended by the occasional use of mature language in chat channels within a game that makes liberal use of phrases along the lines of 'shite' 'bastard' and 'dead whore's crotch'.

 

This is only pertaining to the use of swear words that the game itself uses and the type of suggestive themes featured. The debate is 'is it okay for people to be offended when I say it if the game says it'. No one is defending legitimately terrible behavior.

[Dogberry]

Dogberry curses like a sailor. Because he is one. He will also not think twice about making a downright ghoulish joke or threat from time to time. He is a product of a very coarse upbringing. Part of that also comes from me. I've got no problem with profanity and take a bit of pride in how far I can stretch the limits of vulgarity.

 

If you don't like it OOC, come to me and let me know. I'll tone it back when you're around. Believe me, I can still get make him get his point across. I certainly don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable, when all it costs me is just a few word substitutions.

[Cyroselle]

This is something I've been meaning to discuss for a while now, though I figured now is as good a time as any to spark up yet another debate. First things first, though, let me clear something up: this isn't a thread aimed to excuse genuinely offensive behaviour or commentary that far exceeds anything shown in the game itself. This is a thread intended to try and understand why quite a few players feel offended by the occasional use of mature language in chat channels within a game that makes liberal use of phrases along the lines of 'shite' 'bastard' and 'dead whore's crotch'.

 

I suspect I'm not alone in this, but I've been waiting for an MMO that took itself reasonably seriously and wasn't afraid to touch upon mature themes and the implications that surround them. I'm sure everyone will agree that FFXIV pulls that off rather well, both in terms of mature language and some of the implications that other games desperately shy away from. 

 

...and yet despite all that I'm still seeing people kick up a fuss when players crack a crude joke or lace their discussion with a bit of mature language. Again, I'm not talking about the extreme stuff here, I'm referring to the sort of language that is present in the game itself. It honestly baffles me - on one hand these players are 'offended' by crude jokes and  mature language and yet they're paying a subscription fee to play a game that is literally full of them. 

 

Let's not forget that technically every player should be of or above the age plastered on the game's cover so the argument of 'think of teh children' loses much of it's weight. 

 

So I'm curious to see what other people think of this and decided to make this thread. I'm personally very fond of the gritty tone of the game and it's actually one of my favourite aspects.

 

The game itself has content that such people would find offensive on many levels, were they just to pay attention to NPC dialog. :3

 

In other words I think it's a bit silly when people in a mature game claim offense at mature language when I'm standing next to an NPC that's dissuading me to visit on the attentions of a pair of working women because they gave him 'crotch rot'.

 

At the same time however I don't want to hear people telling 'The Aristocrat' on general chat and I'll actively blacklist people that are being gross just for gross's sake.

[LiadansWhisper]

So, looking through this thread and there's a lot of generic talk about people BEING offended, but there's very little talk about what's actually being said that is offensive? Because there's a world of difference between the two, and we should be focusing on what's actually being said before any rational discussion is being had.

 

Like if someone's getting mad when you say fuck, yes, that's a little silly.

 

But if people are offended at you for making a rape joke or making a joke of something massively triggering to someone - then yes, actually, they should be offended and you're kind of a butt for going "DON'T BE OFFENDED."

 

Because -  you know. There's some things we should not be making fun of.

 

That's a WHOLE DIFFERENT debate you're opening up there. And one that I've learned simply to never engage in under any circumstance. However...

 

This is something I've been meaning to discuss for a while now, though I figured now is as good a time as any to spark up yet another debate. First things first, though, let me clear something up: this isn't a thread aimed to excuse genuinely offensive behaviour or commentary that far exceeds anything shown in the game itself. This is a thread intended to try and understand why quite a few players feel offended by the occasional use of mature language in chat channels within a game that makes liberal use of phrases along the lines of 'shite' 'bastard' and 'dead whore's crotch'.

 

This is only pertaining to the use of swear words that the game itself uses and the type of suggestive themes featured. The debate is 'is it okay for people to be offended when I say it if the game says it'. No one is defending legitimately terrible behavior.

 

OOC swearing really...I don't understand the issue.  If you're genuinely attacking someone, then okay, yeah, that's not cool.  But swearing?  o_O  We're all adults, right?

 

While rape jokes will send me into a rage OOCly, if they happen in-character, while my character might get offended, I don't think that I, as a player, should get offended.  If the situation is uncomfortable, I should let the other person know, but otherwise..yeah.

 

I still don't understand people getting upset OOCly over cussing.  I just...don't get it.

[CassandraJean]

So, looking through this thread and there's a lot of generic talk about people BEING offended, but there's very little talk about what's actually being said that is offensive? Because there's a world of difference between the two, and we should be focusing on what's actually being said before any rational discussion is being had.

 

Like if someone's getting mad when you say fuck, yes, that's a little silly.

 

But if people are offended at you for making a rape joke or making a joke of something massively triggering to someone - then yes, actually, they should be offended and you're kind of a butt for going "DON'T BE OFFENDED."

 

Because - you know. There's some things we should not be making fun of.

 

That happened to a friend of mine. She was in a party and some of the other players were making -constant- rape jokes, talking about getting "raped" by the boss and everything. She told them pretty calmly that she found that offensive, could they please stop talking that way? And the other players tore her apart. They claimed that "getting raped" was just a gamer term and she insisted that it was bothering her. So they started taunting her. Asking her if she had been raped before, telling her she had no life, etc.

 

THAT is the kind of behavior that I find offensive. The things the NPCs say, things that people say in character, it does not bother me, but when players act like -that- is when I get bothered.

[Dravus]

Yeah, there's definitely some subjects that shouldn't be brought up around strangers - especially if they're likely to trigger unpleasant memories. A bit of tact can go a very long way. A lot of people are too desensitized to various horrible matters and seem to be unable to show even a basic level of respect and decency towards those that aren't.

[Darien Cadell]

Do I have to go screenshot the quest dialog for that Roe in Jr. La Noscea that is quite clearly doing horrible, horrible things to sheep in a bedtime manner? 'cause that's just... I don't even --

 

This game's offensive sometimes. That offended me in a 'holy crap I have to tell everyone I know that this happened' kind of way.

 

But players =/= NPCs and thin skins are thin skins. And RL can have a huge effect on how any given person responds to any given thing. I've had to blacklist myself on days when the shit hit the fan around here and I got verbally twitchy/extremely easily annoyed in-game because of it, despite being in the game to try and relax.

[BlessedSilence]

It takes a good amount to offend me.  My husband is from New York, so a lot of his friends talk .. uhm .. very colorfully being from the city.

 

The only thing I find offensive is the word 'rape'.  I ask nicely that it not be used because ... it is just a negative word.

 

If any of you are on Gilgamesh, and run into a miqo named Sicha, hang around him for a time.  He drops more f-bombs ICly in a 5 minutes time than anyone I know.  But he's still soooo loveable!

[Lost River]

With me, given the circumstances, I don't really find much of anything offensive, even the dark, gritty, disgusting sort. If that floats your boat, that's fine. What I  -do not- like though are two things.

 

People being jerks/asses/bitches (insert gender nickname for negative influencing person) OOCly to someone else. Being mean and rude is no way to be to someone, even if your character is a jerkface, you don't have to follow suit.

 

 

And... while I am accepting of what people want to do, you do -not- force your RP on others, even if other people like to roleplay. Not everyone is in the same sort of things you do, forcing your viewpoint on someone else when they do -not want it- is bad. Terribly bad. It also shows you have no sense of boundaries or consent among other people.

[Hali]

Over the years, I've started telling myself something that, honestly, really and truly helps in any situation where I feel someone is being offensive either intentionally or not. Of course, it helps and goes hand in hand with the fact that I, myself, have a rather all-encompassing sense of humour including and certainly not limited to rude, crude, offensive behaviour.

 

Simply put, you cannot be offended if you do not let yourself be. That doesn't mean speak up against people, nor does it mean making anyone else stop. It starts with you. If you choose not to take offense to something, regardless of your beliefs or feelings on something... that is (eventually - it takes a bit of self-training, admittedly) where it ends.

 

Without someone to take offense, offensive actions or language are no longer as big of a problem, as the person who they would otherwise offend is now unaffected.

 

And believe me, this comes from experience, spending years of my life bullied and abused by my "fellow" man from grade school to high school to college to this very day. I'm a weird and eccentric person who often is at the end of some pretty offensive comments and behaviour.

 

That said...

 

F8XlMYe_2Lo

[Naunet]

Simply put, you cannot be offended if you do not let yourself be. 

 

Honestly, this skirts dangerously close to the tired "You're being over-sensitive" accusation (and is similar to the "I'm sorry if you were offended by what I said" non-apology), which is just complete and utter horseshit. There needs to be responsibility on the part of the offender. You have no idea what history the offended person has that led to them reacting how they did, and you have no right to tell them not to be offended. One must understand that they are, accept that, and work around it on a case-by-case basis.

[Val]

As many others have pointed out, IC is IC.

 

I have three characters. One, my main, curses like a sailor. He does it because, well, that's just how he is. I imagine that those around can either block me or leave the area if they don't like the idea of seeing it. Strictly put, though, it's in character. It will always stay in character and I have no plans or desires to bring it out of character.

 

My other two are completely different. One is a soldier who has big dreams of becoming a knight. He is incredibly nice and I don't even think has a curse in his vocabulary. The other is capable, but he finds it tasteless and only does such when he's angry.

 

I'll never act like my main OOCly. To my knowledge, I don't think I ever have. If he offends people, or I feel he's offended people, I make sure to apologize to others OOCly for his actions and ensure that they know that I, the player, am nothing like that. I don't feel that I should have to do it, but it certainly is a bother and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

[Tyndles]

People get offended by lots of different stuff, and I never intentionally try to push peoples buttons, but I have once gotten a tell saying that Jojo was "being a bit colorful"

 

 

They politely asked me if I could tone it down a bit, and I did.  They were kind about it, and it was just a brief RP interlude that happened in the middle of the marketplace, so there were a LOT of people around.  I managed to get my characters personality across....

 

but when you play a filthy-mouthed drunken Lalafell...without the quite as filthy mouth, it can mute the experience a bit.

 

Sometimes you gotta compromise a bit, but if you're doing it to a point where it isn't fun anymore, then you've done too much.

[Vinter]

Simply put, you cannot be offended if you do not let yourself be. 

 

Honestly, this skirts dangerously close to the tired "You're being over-sensitive" accusation (and is similar to the "I'm sorry if you were offended by what I said" non-apology), which is just complete and utter horseshit. There needs to be responsibility on the part of the offender. You have no idea what history the offended person has that led to them reacting how they did, and you have no right to tell them not to be offended. One must understand that they are, accept that, and work around it on a case-by-case basis.

 

I can agree with the first two points, but not the third. You might as well argue that the offended party needs to understand that not everyone finds X topic offensive; accept that; and find a way to deal with it, without expecting other people to change themselves to conform to their own particular values.

 

Say for instance that I'm offended by homosexuality. Is it then reasonable for me to expect a gay rights activist to work around my personal prejudice for the sake of sparing my feelings?

They are after all the ones reponsible for offending me.