Gender roles

[K'nahli]

Warren would like to believe he treats everyone equally, but that's just not true. He's a protective person by nature and this leads him to lump people into the categories of whether or not he feels can be protect them. THAT breaks down because he expects men to be able to fend for themselves and function as providers, whereas he excuses women from it. It's a bit chauvinist but comes from good intentions; He doesn't want women to have to bear any sort of pain or hardship so he expects men to take up the slack.

 

He's recently been working on acknowledging the fact that many, many women have no need for his inclinations and that they are in fact perfectly capable of protecting themselves.

 

That makes me wonder... Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline? The period alone would kind of lend to that belief but at the same time there are a LOT of women fending for themselves and assuming strong roles throughout society... I guess you could consider it a bit modern in that sense - where most people don't judge by sex nor race - but it still made me question myself for a moment there.

[Coatleque]

Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?

 

This is where things get very fuzzy. You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by. You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.

[K'nahli]

Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?

 

This is where things get very fuzzy.  You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by.  You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.

 

Ah I see ;    I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

 

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

 

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

[Warren Castille]

 

Ah I see ;    I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

 

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

 

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Depending on your specific upbringing and circle, absolutely. Warren's backstory is so he grew up in a setting where the women provided and cooked and the men did the hard labor. That's not how it is everywhere in the world, but it's what he grew up on, so he figures it's his job to protect women because they're the ones keeping the men up behind the scenes. Behind every strong man, as they say.

[Coatleque]

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Not per say. What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

 

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

 

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

[K'nahli]

 

Ah I see ;    I know many people like to find anything to complain about but I didn't think such a thing would be more controversial than the other things that get people all worked up.

 

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

 

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Depending on your specific upbringing and circle, absolutely. Warren's backstory is so he grew up in a setting where the women provided and cooked and the men did the hard labor. That's not how it is everywhere in the world, but it's what he grew up on, so he figures it's his job to protect women because they're the ones keeping the men up behind the scenes. Behind every strong man, as they say.

 

Ah, nono. I was thinking outside of the exceptions which is something both of my characters would also be under to an extent. I can understand how it would vary from culture to culture but I was thinking more of the general populace if that makes sense ^^

 

 

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Not per say.  What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game.  But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

 

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

 

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter.  These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

 

That was poorly written, sorry, I basically meant what you just said in your post. Regardless, the concept is still something that would lend to the mentality where women are second preference to men when it comes to the likes of... lets say military induction for example. I wasn't asking you if you thought that men openly looked down on women as second-class citizens; even if the game is influenced by real-life politics I wouldn't really conceive such an idea myself, haha. It would seem pretty random to me.

[111]

So are you suggesting that your impression of Eorzea's inhabitants would be that there is a pretty typical level of "men are stronger and therefore better" than what a lot of the in-game content would imply?

(Apologies if this is pushing off topic)

 

Not per say. What I am saying is that this still a very prevalent viewpoint in the world at large, and should be viewed as natural in any mideval/fantasy themed game. But any AAA title in the US market is going to downplay it for political reasons to avoid offending the majority.

 

Also, it's not a "stronger & better" thing so much as a "designed for the hunter/gatherer role vs designed for the nurturing/caregiver role".

 

Also, I should note here - I'm not inviting a flame war on this topic, I'm simply trying to expound on the concepts being discussed to avoid confusion on the whole matter. These do not reflect my personal viewpoints, just my understanding of the subject.

 

Actually... I think the setting of FFXIV basically implies that women are at the least equal, and possibly even in a more dominant role than men. The leaders of all three City states are female, the leader of the Scions is a woman, the leader of the Doman refugees is a woman. In Ul'dah especially, women lead the two most physically demanding Guilds, the Miners and the Gladiator's. Even seeker tribes are overwhelming led by women (according to square), most Nuhns are little more than breeding studs, and women actually run the tribes.

 

As for the sexes, my character treats them both the same. Though she can be a bit teasing of men when they want to play hero. She used to have issues with seeker tribes because of her backround, but since then she's stopped caring. Though she treats them both the same, Natalie's relations with other women tend to be pointedly different, even though she's attracted to them as well. Most male (not all) characters seem to see romance as the natural conclusion of things, while most (but not all) female characters are more interested in friendships (even if they're also attracted to women).

[Oscare]

I know we're not trying to cause a flamewar (and I'm not either), but I feel like I should expand a bit on the "sexes" part.

 

While this game does have its very fair share of female-male NPCs, and we do have a lot of independent female leads, due to how society works (not going to delve into that any deeper to try to keep this at least as in-topic as possible), games kind of have to abide by the fact that men are workers while women are providers. Granted, this game very loosely ties to that, but the concept is still there. It's only natural that men would feel like other men should be able to stand up to themselves while they feel obligated (at least, most men do. I know Oscare does) to defend a woman if they're in trouble.

 

Again. I am not trying to invite a war to this. Just felt the need that the concept is there, and probably will not disappear. But I will safely say that this game tries to keep it at a bare minimum. Which is a warming thing to know.

 

Edit: I sincerely apologize, from hindsight this came off as sexist. This was not my intention.

[Warren Castille]

There is a subtle but distinct difference between "I want to keep you safe and protect you" and "You will get hurt without me, you can't do this on your own." The trick is staying on the right side of the line without sounding like you're on the wrong one. Chivalry isn't "You're unable to defend yourself" though that's hard to convey sometimes.

[111]

While this game does have its very fair share of female-male NPCs, and we do have a lot of independent female leads, due to how society works (not going to delve into that any deeper to try to keep this at least as in-topic as possible), games kind of have to abide by the fact that men are workers while women are providers.

 

That is not a fact.

 

Edit: It seems I misunderstood this. Sorry for my aggressive reply. Oscare means to say that it's a societal truth currently, but not a biological one.

[Whittledown]

Yeah, from what I've seen of this game the males and females to pretty much the same jobs. Guards, soldiers, culinarians, whatever. The leaders of the three major factions are all female. The idea that women have some sort of predetermined 'role' in Eorzea seems to have a flimsy basis at best. Other places? Who knows. But Eorzea itself seems to be pretty solidly gender equal.

[K'nahli]

We're talking about the game and the timeline it is set in(relative to the real world) though, not personal views on how the real, modern world works or how we think it should work. I really don't think we're treading on any touchy subjects here so long as it stays that way so you shouldn't worry about tip-toeing around it. I understand that you are perhaps making your stances clear so that no-one unnecessarily gets their feelings hurt but I think that acknowledging it as something that is a very dangerous subject brings more attention to that aspect than is really necessary ^^

 

 

In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

[Dat Oni]

We're talking about the game and the timeline it is set in(relative to the real world) though, not personal views on how the real, modern world works or how we think it should work. I really don't think we're treading on any touchy subjects here so long as it stays that way so you shouldn't worry about tip-toeing around it. I understand that you are perhaps making your stances clear so that no-one unnecessarily gets their feelings hurt but I think that acknowledging it as something that is a very dangerous subject brings more attention to that aspect than is really necessary ^^

 

 

In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

 

A separate topic would be nice, I think. It's getting a little off-topic, but at the same time, it's an interesting direction you're going in, one worthy of its own discussion.

 

And Dearie Doe...

 

I loved reading everyone's views on this. ^ o ^

 

Exactly why I make these kinds of threads.

[FreelanceWizard]

In any case, I fear that this is getting a little off-topic so if the OP/a moderator/anyone for that matter would rather discuss it in a separate topic then feel free to request for it to stop here.

 

I'll do you one better and split it into a new thread for you.

 

For reference, this thread was split from: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=6798

[K'nahli]

Ahah, thank you very much.

 

In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.

It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again. 

 

Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.

 

 

 

Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.

[Devereau]

Ahah, thank you very much.

 

In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.

It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again. 

 

Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.

 

 

 

Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.

 

 

Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.

 

Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.

 

For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)

 

It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.

[Kage]

It appears like most of the leaders in the world are female. While the Syndicate has "true" power in Ul'dah they still have to play with the Sultana currently. Or the sultanate, but we'll use Sultana because she's not dead and LONG LIVE NANAMO.

 

/cough

Ahem.

 

I don't know too much about the other races' lores, but both Miqo'te cultures seem much more matriarchal.

 

Nevermind that the current Gladiator Guild leader is a female. Or that the current leader of the Scions is female... the leaders of Maelstrom and Twin Adders are female... They had male characters that easily could have taken those places.

 

Is this because of a culture where females are seen as more leader types? No that's not my point. In fact, I think it's just Eorzea's willingness to have females be leaders. It's not something of an except where "Oh she's going to be the first President!" but "ok she has done these things over all those other people". Merit over novelty.

[K'nahli]

Ahah, thank you very much.

 

In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.

It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again. 

 

Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.

 

 

 

Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.

 

 

Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.

 

Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.

 

For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)

 

It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.

 

Yes, I completely agree! That's why I excluded miqo'te cultures from the role since I know for a fact that the female are considered "more important" in both clans. As for the others, I would not know but if I am to consider the three city-states alone then there leaves room for debate. It could be a coincidence that the three leaders happen to be female after all. I mean, Raubahn is the real person who dominates our attention since he is the military leader, yet the leader of the Adder does not have a significant presence(if at all).

 

By the looks of it, it would seem that Eorzea is more modern when it comes to equality especially when you consider that there is no significant racism outside of Coerthas, but some people have different opinions and that's what I am interested in hearing ^^

[TheLastCandle]

Ahah, thank you very much.

 

In any case, miqo'te cultures aside, I can understand how the relative timeline that FF14 is set in would lend some possibility to the idea that women are seen more as "nurturers", to use the words of Coatleque, which would result in perhaps in them having more difficulty in certain areas of life like joining the military in the case of my previous example, but there have been some good points about many women assuming very influential and powerful roles in the game.

It was suggested that not having women appear as "second-class citizens" in this game or any other was merely a way of avoiding controversy on the developers' part but the fact that quite a lot of women dominate these roles has drawn me skeptical from that idea once again. 

 

Perhaps it is even possible that women are seen as "optimal" in a leadership role? I could lean either way on this really so I am interested to see what others have to say but as it stands I have been brought toward the idea that women are truly seen as equals if not "superior" in certain aspects within Eorzea.

 

 

 

Quotation marks, if not obvious, are just to indicate the lack of a better word for the context.

 

 

Forgive my short-worded reply in return to the rather eloquently worded responses here, but I figured I would at the least, ask a question.

 

Doesn't it seem like the gender roles are really quite different, depending on the culture? It seems like most places have vastly different ideas, no particular idea about men or women seems to be the default.

 

For example, it seems like women are the figure-heads of many of the main societies, and leading many guilds that oft would be seen as a "male" role. When you travel to Ishgard, you don't exactly see a significantly large amount of women on the front lines of battle (though, I could be corrected.)

 

It seems like they just put a lot of varied diversity, which seems more accurate and politically correct, really.

 

As I've recently revisited the Ishgard questline as my Miqo'te alt, I have to point out that this is actually surprisingly untrue. In particular, the questline where you have to rescue fallen knights, but it's not limited to them: there are a number of female Ishgardian knight NPC's, in battle and otherwise. It's just that because they tend to wear the chain hauberk models, it's hard to pick them out unless you're familiar with actual elezen naming conventions (some names don't -look- very feminine..) or in the case of unnamed NPCs, pretty observant. It gets harder if they're wearing the coif model that includes a face guard.

 

I agree with this overall sentiment, though - it does seem to vary based on region and/or culture. The most glaringly obvious difference being that between Seekers of the Sun and Keepers of the Moon.

[K'nahli]

As I've recently revisited the Ishgard questline as my Miqo'te alt, I have to point out that this is actually surprisingly untrue. In particular, the questline where you have to rescue fallen knights, but it's not limited to them: there are a number of female Ishgardian knight NPC's, in battle and otherwise. It's just that because they tend to wear the chain hauberk models, it's hard to pick them out unless you're familiar with actual elezen naming conventions (some names don't -look- very feminine..) or in the case of unnamed NPCs, pretty observant. It gets harder if they're wearing the coif model that includes a face guard.

 

I agree with this overall sentiment, though - it does seem to vary based on region and/or culture. The most glaringly obvious difference being that between Seekers of the Sun and Keepers of the Moon.

 

Ah, thank you for pointing this out. It never crossed my mind before but once Thaarus mentioned it I realised that I only remember seeing males... or so I thought, but I guess you are right that their armour causes it to be deceiving ^^

[Smiling River]

You're right, SE probably can't make a game where the content and gameplay is heavily swayed by which gender you pick at character creation, especially if it's one sided (like women not being able to play all classes but men can). On the other hand, there is no "timeline" to speak of, because while this game looks to us as resembling medieval / renaissance times... it's not. Nothing that we culturally know of those times has to apply here because it's a fantasy, and the lore is not set within the Earth timeline.

 

As far as pointing to women being the heads of the three nations as an example of dominance, I think that is also narrow minded in it's own way. What if this is a rare coincidence in the history of Eorzea?

 

OOC'ly, SE wouldn't get flack from groups focused on "men's rights" by making all three leaders female, or even making female characters seem more dominant, but if things were reversed? There would be a huge outcry if all the leaders were men, and it seemed that men were more dominant. The Keeper clan is a matriarchy, but is there a race/clan that is male dominated? I don't think so, because again - no one will protest a female dominated culture but if there was also a male dominated one (even in a fantasy) there would be trouble.

 

This is one of the reasons I don't particularly respect the lore (although I generally follow it), because it's very heavily shaped by OOC politics.

[K'nahli]

You're right, SE probably can't make a game where the content and gameplay is heavily swayed by which gender you pick at character creation, especially if it's one sided (like women not being able to play all classes but men can). On the other hand, there is no "timeline" to speak of, because while this game looks to us as resembling medieval / renaissance times... it's not. Nothing that we culturally know of those times has to apply here because it's a fantasy, and the lore is not set within the Earth timeline.

 

As far as pointing to women being the heads of the three nations as an example of dominance, I think that is also narrow minded in it's own way. What if this is a rare coincidence in the history of Eorzea?

 

OOC'ly, SE wouldn't get flack from groups focused on "men's rights" by making all three leaders female, or even making female characters seem more dominant, but if things were reversed? There would be a huge outcry if all the leaders were men, and it seemed that men were more dominant. The Keeper clan is a matriarchy, but is there a race/clan that is male dominated? I don't think so, because again - no one will protest a female dominated culture but if there was also a male dominated one (even in a fantasy) there would be trouble.

 

This is one of the reasons I don't particularly respect the lore (although I generally follow it), because it's very heavily shaped by OOC politics.

 

I guess I am pretty ignorant to that then. I honestly didn't think such a thing could cause so much trouble in a game of this timeline(IF we were to humour the concept that it can be related to Earth, but I respect your argument that such a comparison should not be made).

 

Thank you for your reply ^^

[UltraFennec]

Would it really be considered a little chauvinistic in this timeline?

 

This is where things get very fuzzy.  You have to separate the world itself from the real-life politics that game creators unfortunately MUST abide by.  You are not going to find a game today out there, regardless of its theme or setting, that treats men and women as two distinct sexes anymore.

 

It's not common, but it IS present in some titles, though mostly relegated to background elements.

 

The one series I can think of that definitely does this is the Witcher games from CD Projekt Red, based on the Andrzej Sapkowski stories and novels of the same title. It's made fairly blatantly obvious that the Sorceresses are some of the few women in the world with actual power and ability to exercise that power. Equality is a nonexistent ideal in that world, save perhaps for the protagonist and his friends.

[Mercurias]

Gender roles are going to vary in the game, and people are going to find reasons to act the way they do, be they mainstream believes that seem to be modern in the more 'modern' cities or backwater/traditionalist areas and tribes. You can choose your own origin, and thus choose your own excuse for your character acting the way they do.

 

Heck, it might even be a little,bit awesome to see someone openly admit to being a raging sexist and have to spend time working on it. Haven knows there are enough characters on both sides lampooning the opposite sex IC. 

 

And what about gender IDENTITIES? I'd imagine biases would exist there, as well, especially with the sorts who believe that women should be coddled and men should be able to look after themselves.

[OttoVann]

Hm I read a lot of the posts here and this isn't aimed at anyone in particular.

 

All I am going to say is that Otto feels no need or obligation to help women because they are women. I clearly mack on women and actively pursue many thats apart of the character, but I most definitely will not intervene with an argument between a man and woman just because.

 

I actually personally HATE with a passion when my good friend and I do our little argument/insult RPs with each other and men swoop in left and right to physically stand between us and instigate fights with me for insulting her. Why it annoys me is from my view they fail to understand when they do this they are actively treating and thinking of women as less than them, that must have male assistance to survive/navigate the encounters. I like to think that I won't help women in fights with other men (unless asked directly) because I think of them as my true equal and would rather let them stand on their own versus me trampling over their situation. This is hard to describe but its a less distilled version of equal rights comes with equal lefts. I don't know at this point I'm rambling but I find the feeling of NEEDING to intervene with women because they are is super annoying and I'll never do it no matter what. That and the men constantly white knighting my female friend irritate her too because they are belittling her by stepping in, and trampling over her persona and in a round about way belittling her character.

 

sorry for the incoherent rant

 

Edits:

 

To try to explain my viewpoint - lets say Lady Crofte draws her sword on a Roe man for whatever reason. Best believe I will not rush to help her because shes a woman. In fact she drew he sword first she better be ready for the consequences and I'm not going to help her at all unless she asks. I don't care if she loses she knew what she was getting into beforehand. Well I'd care to try to save her I guess if shes facing imminent death but if its a fight? Nah. I'd help her survive the encounter because Im not a psycho but Im not helping just because I'm a man and shes a woman. She a big girl if she can't handle the fights don't get in them. No thanks. That and my knowledge of how to use a lance is largely academic and I don't engage in fights myself all that often.