Gender roles

[Melkire]

...what happens when the Roe trains?

 

Sudden price hikes for somnus.

[Warren Castille]

Furthermore, trying too hard to separate game mechanics from the game universe results in mechanical dissonance with the game world, and we really, really don't want that. There's good reason why aether has inextricably been linked to the game's death mechanics (i.e. warriors of light don't return to the aetheric realm when they die thanks to Hydaelyn's blessing, instead returning to their home anchor point) rather than simply being handwaved as a game mechanic.

 

Mind you, there are definitely some things I just accept as part of the game mechanics, like most of a player character's ability being tied directly to gear rather than internal ability, but that can be explained away as an abstraction for the sake of progression mechanics, since your character would logically be getting stronger after facing ever more implacable foes. Gear serves as a useful stand-in for this since you can switch out pieces to change your stat makeup for different scenarios, something a more permanent progression option would not allow.

 

But Lalafel warriors still exist. And you have to be able to explain that in some way other than "oh, you know, they're just harder to hit", which of course doesn't explain anything since they'd still be tiny little people hitting as hard with an axe as a freakin' Roegadyn.

 

I have an issue with this. What you're talking about is explained in the main scenario, yes, but for the intents of roleplaying we're not supposed to BE the people (person, really, unless Menphilia's got an army of favorites she sent to stomp out Leviathan or something) who are chosen by the Crystal.

 

There has to be a story and gameplay segregation. Has to be. For me, anyway, the fun all falls apart if you presume everything is a constant everywhere forever. I can't imagine tanking from that perspective: Ifrit breathes flames that melt flesh and you suffer in agony, moments from death, until a fairy throws magic at you to repair your damaged skin, right before Ifrit breathes fire on your face again.

[111]

So no lalafells aren't born as strong as Roes, but they can work hard and eventually be as strong as one. Think of ather powers like muscles that can be built upon once your body already has all the muscles it's going to get.

 

Good, was hoping someone would bring this up.

 

So Lala A starts with a strength score of 10. Roe B starts with a strength scored of 18. Lala spends all his time training his aether and eventually becomes STR18 just like the Roe. So while Roes and highlanders are well known for their martial prowess, because with a little training they can be deadly warriors, it allows for other races to close the gap, until they can fight on somewhat of even terms.

 

...what happens when the Roe trains?

 

The same thing, but if they both increase in a linear fashion, the Roe will always be stronger, but eventually it's a miniscule difference. If the Roe is at 108 and the lala is at 100, that ~10% can be overcome with skill, courage, finesse etc.

 

Also I think the lord of the rings example is good, because it shows a similar way. The whole point of LOTRO is that ultimately your physical strength doesn't matter as much as your courage and strength of self. For example instead of HP you have morale. You don't lose when your character gets too hurt, you lose when your character loses heart. The game isn't saying a Hobbit is as strong as a Human, but that they can be just as strong of heart, which is the true measure of strength in Lotr.

 

FFXIV is the same way, lots of RPGs provide no mechanic for while different races of wildy different size can be on the same par physically. FFXIV seems to to have a mechanic for explaining it. It even possibly might account for Eorzea's egalitarean society, and why it's different from the seemingly more male dominated garlean society.

[Zyrusticae]

Well, of course there's story and gameplay segregation. We're not all the exact same (mute) person wearing different skins and faces, after all. You can pretty much assume that Minfilia would have an entire stable of Warriors of Light at her command, and obviously, since you always have plenty of help in dungeons and fighting primals, you are not ever presumed to be the only one outside of cutscenes.

 

But I can actually explain the tanking scenario as well: it isn't actually burning agony for you. Your aether naturally acts as a kind of protective barrier that prevents his attacks from being lethally damaging (or even permanently burning you, for that matter). You're not just taking his stuff in your face all the time. That's pretty much what hit points represent (aside from the abstractions of dodging attacks that aren't represented by actual dodges in the game).

 

Conveniently, this also acts as an explanation for why a level 50 character is utterly unphased by the attacks of level 15 bandits, even when they're literally stabbing you in the face with steel weapons, and also why guns have not completely overtaken swords and axes as weaponry even though they're clearly already past the point of developing automatic firearms. Hell, there's a cutscene for the Sahagin where the clutchfather intimidates a bunch of weaker Sahagin with his aether alone, suggesting very clearly that aether does indeed work much in the way, say, ki does in DBZ.

 

So, you know, there it is. That's my explanation for a whole lot of things in this game. Aether is everywhere, it's used for basically everything (including crafting and gathering), and it's really the simplest answer to a bunch of problems that would otherwise have no reasonable answer. You may think it feels along the same lines as 'a wizard did it', but I find it to be internally consistent, which is all you really need (and can really ask for).

 

Aether is the energy field that suffuses all living things. It is FFXIV's equivalent of ki, the Force, chakra, reiatsu, whatever-the-hell-you-wanna-call it. It's there. We use it. Squeenix loves using it. You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.

[111]

Just like goku can get punched through 50 rocks and still get to his feet, tanks can get punched by Ifrit over and over again. Casting cure on someone is more like giving them a senzu bean than magical surgery.

 

The opening cinematic to a realm reborn shows this pretty well actually. The warrior is shown as basically being on his last legs, but there doesn't seem to be anything physically wrong with him. However the white mage cures him and he's ready to go again. Nothing is actually healed, but whatever internal store of something that protected and sustained him is back.

[Warren Castille]

You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.

 

I appreciate you telling me that my interpretation of the lore is incorrect and yours is factually sound, but I assure you you are wrong with this sentence. Thanks for the lesson, though.

[111]

If we can't all get along I'll have to go back to posting gay lizard stories.

 

I have a lot of ideas.

[Berrod Armstrong]

Just a quick, possibly unrelated note:

 

Pureblood Garleans are unable to channel aether. Conscripted members of the Garlean Empire -- who are made up of individuals from all the conquered territories, are able to channel aether just fine. Cohort Signifiers, etc.

[TheLastCandle]

If we can't all get along I'll have to go back to posting gay lizard stories.

 

I have a lot of ideas.

Can we write a collaborative lizard/dwarf story? We'll call it Brokeback Under the Mountain.

[Zyrusticae]

You're just gonna have to come to terms with that, or you're gonna have a bad time.

 

I appreciate you telling me that my interpretation of the lore is incorrect and yours is factually sound, but I assure you you are wrong with this sentence. Thanks for the lesson, though.

Well, I don't really know how to respond to that. You're... welcome, I guess?

 

Just a quick, possibly unrelated note:

 

Pureblood Garleans are unable to channel aether. Conscripted members of the Garlean Empire -- who are made up of individuals from all the conquered territories, are able to channel aether just fine. Cohort Signifiers, etc.

I really hope they expand on this. The whole thing about Garleans and their lack of aether manipulation and the corresponding lack of aether on their home continent is a really big question mark on this whole thing. For example, if a mage steps foot on Garland, what does it feel like for them? Are they still capable of casting spells, or does the lack of aether perform the equivalent of suffocating their magical prowess? And why is their continent low on aether, anyway? Was there some great magical disaster in the past that created a vacuum in that area, is it naturally-occurring, or was it something else entirely?

 

Big questions, and still no answers yet. Don't let me down, Squeenix!

[111]

If we can't all get along I'll have to go back to posting gay lizard stories.

 

I have a lot of ideas.

Can we write a collaborative lizard/dwarf story? We'll call it Brokeback Under the Mountain.

 

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

I kinda see the Garleans as having just as much aether as any other hyur, but that they lack the ability to consciously use it. That's why in terms of abilities, they shy away from magic (one could say they have no aether reserves), but they certainly are physically weak. It just so happens that their magitek gadgets make up for the difference in their combat styles. 

 

I'd have expected Garleans to have slightly more defined gender roles in this sense. If we judge based off of the regular enemies, and named characters, we really only have a single Garlean female with power, with higher/equal ranking men. And all of the "regular" Garlean soldiers have always appeared to be male models and have male voices. But then, maybe they're just sending a male-only army to Eorzea. We don't have enough lore on them.

 

I don't know if you noticed this or not, but the only female we see with Garlean forces who has some kind of power is also warming Gaius's bed.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that.  They really do strike me as rather chauvanistic.

[Kellach Woods]

Also who's to say that Eorzean physics = Earth physics.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

 

 

I kinda see the Garleans as having just as much aether as any other hyur, but that they lack the ability to consciously use it. That's why in terms of abilities, they shy away from magic (one could say they have no aether reserves), but they certainly are physically weak. It just so happens that their magitek gadgets make up for the difference in their combat styles. 

 

I'd have expected Garleans to have slightly more defined gender roles in this sense. If we judge based off of the regular enemies, and named characters, we really only have a single Garlean female with power, with higher/equal ranking men. And all of the "regular" Garlean soldiers have always appeared to be male models and have male voices. But then, maybe they're just sending a male-only army to Eorzea. We don't have enough lore on them.

 

I don't know if you noticed this or not, but the only female we see with Garlean forces who has some kind of power is also warming Gaius's bed.

 

I'm pretty sure there's a reason for that.  They really do strike me as rather chauvanistic.

 

That was the exact character I was referencing. While Livia sas Junius isn't exactly incompetent, it's pretty clear she probably had to bend the rules a lot to get to her postion in the military. Especially when other non-pure Garleans seemed perfectly able to get a high ranking, like Rhitahtyn sas Arvina. ...But seeing as Gauis was rather.....accepting of people compared to Nael, it could just be a different ideology. We won't really know more until SE gives us more to go on.

 

Personally, I'd like to know how a Garlean civilian would act like. Who's to say they even really know what's going on if they aren't associated with the military.

[Mae]

Personally, I'd like to know how a Garlean civilian would act like. Who's to say they even really know what's going on if they aren't associated with the military.

"One's tempted to believe that all of Murgodom is deliberately ugly, and then one comes across a room like this."

"I suspect that the ugliness was to satisfy Ctuchik - and Taur Urgas." Garion replied. "Underneath, Murgos probably aren't much different from the rest of us."

Brador laughed. "That sort of thinking is considered heresy in Mal Zeth." he said.

"The people in Val Alorn feel much the same way."

 

... I'm worried I'm about to open a can of worms, but I can hope that people won't go on a political/historical rampage, right?

... Right?

 

Anyways. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too different from how civilian Germans were during WWII -- some were all for it, others weren't pleased but they went with it because they were seeing some/hoping for some benefits and/or were afraid of opposing and getting in trouble, and others were obviously against it.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Anyways. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too different from how civilian Germans were during WWII -- some were all for it, others weren't pleased but they went with it because they were seeing some/hoping for some benefits and/or were afraid of opposing and getting in trouble, and others were obviously against it.

 

It's probably identical to that. But we won't really know anything about Garlean culture and if they have the same level of equality that Eorzea seems to have. 

 

As far as Eorzean gender roles go, there don't appear to be any set in stone, "only this kind of person can do this" mentalities. Which is nice.

[111]

Anyways. I'd imagine it wouldn't be too different from how civilian Germans were during WWII -- some were all for it, others weren't pleased but they went with it because they were seeing some/hoping for some benefits and/or were afraid of opposing and getting in trouble, and others were obviously against it.

 

It's probably identical to that. But we won't really know anything about Garlean culture and if they have the same level of equality that Eorzea seems to have. 

 

As far as Eorzean gender roles go, there don't appear to be any set in stone, "only this kind of person can do this" mentalities. Which is nice.

 

Only men can take off their shirts.

 

Yoshi P plz add nude beaches in 2.4

 

For equality.

[Mae]

Only men can take off their shirts.

 

Yoshi P plz add nude beaches in 2.4

 

For equality.

As long as the nude beaches were instanced.

 

Not that nudity bothers me (and even less-so when it comes to pixels), but I just don't want to be sitting in the middle of town and have someone come and waggle their uglies in my screen. Last thing I want to do is try to explain it to someone who's peering over my shoulder (mother, grandmother, little cousins, random other people)...

[synaesthetic]

The fact that bare female chests would even be shameful or embarrassing at all makes me despair for humanity's future.

 

I don't, and will never, understand why a shirtless guy is just fine and dandy but the moment a girl's boob is visible it's PANIC PANIC MORAL PANIC HIDE THE CHILDREN AVERT YOUR EYES!

[synaesthetic]

 

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

 

This is a fallacious rationalization and proves you know nothing about actual combat. There's an old axiom in boxing, it goes a little like this: "A good big guy will always beat a good small guy."

 

Reach matters. I don't care how good you are, if the other guy's got longer arms and a longer weapon he's going to have all kinds of advantages over you. "Waif-Fu" is a TV Trope, ya'll. It's not real life. In real close-quarters combat, size does not directly correlate to speed or dodging ability. There are tons of really huge fighters who can move like lightning--the US military has quite a few of them, for example.

 

The only possible way Papashan could be "heroic," then, is if he only fought people who were less skilled at fighting than him. Which doesn't make him very heroic since he would thus only fight battles he knows he can win. Look at it this way--a nine-year-old female martial arts student might be able to beat up an untrained, but otherwise average adult male. Maybe. If he was taken by surprise, perhaps. However, if the adult was trained, she would have no chance whatsoever. It would simply be no contest.

 

So, viewing this in the light of reality of combat, the use of magic to "amp up" a martial fighter makes all kinds of sense in the universe FFXIV is set in. Pretty much every physical weaponskill has flashy animations with colored lights and explosions--that would suggest that our attacks are "charged up" with aether. Because magic is magic, that would mean that actual physical qualities would fall to the wayside and the story goes out of its way to suggest that most Eorzeans have a similar capacity for aether (with the exception of some folks, such as Cid, who is Garlean, and that one THM questline lala).

 

Let's not even get into the fact that you've got a tiny little lalafell, the size of a very young human child (perhaps a bit pudgier) who can block castle-crushing attacks from a ten-meter-tall giant. Or a huge magitek mecha. Or a full-size dragon. Or any other number of equally monstrous and huge enemies that would, if combat was handled realistically, require full armies to actually take down, meanwhile it's shredding big male roe after big male roe with single snaps of its jaws.

 

Neither of the handwaves are especially "believable," but I consider the "magically amped up warriors" to be much easier to swallow than completely disregarding the basics of melee combat. In fantasy stories like these, which are fairly high-magic, not very dark thematically and have a strong action element, I always assume that magic is being used for far more than simply casting spells, but also to reinforce the strikes of melee fighters and help everyone take way more damage than a humanoid body should ever be capable of absorbing. I consider FFXIV to fall in the same category as RWBY, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and possibly even the Fate/Nasuverse, where all player characters are essentially on par with Servants in terms of how much ridiculous punishment they can take and just laugh it off.

[Berrod Armstrong]

 

There's a third option. Maybe Papashan's just developed enough technique to overcompensate for his size? Relying on agility and being entire magnitudes smaller than your foe is a valid tactic, as is letting them think you're going to go down easily. If it was so simple to just be aetherially reinforced, there'd never be any reason for people to have sculpted bodies or actually try; Magic is just making us better. Having everyone on the planet be functionally equal because reasons feels like a cop-out to me. Having those who are able to hang with the bigger/smaller/faster/stronger/magical folk through experience and effort is what makes them heroes (or villains!) in the first place. Handwaving it away with magic makes for poor storytelling.

 

"I overcame Ultima weapon thanks to crystal-steroids! Thanks, Mothercrystal!"

 

This is a fallacious rationalization and proves you know nothing about actual combat. There's an old axiom in boxing, it goes a little like this: "A good big guy will always beat a good small guy."

 

Reach matters. I don't care how good you are, if the other guy's got longer arms and a longer weapon he's going to have all kinds of advantages over you. "Waif-Fu" is a TV Trope, ya'll. It's not real life. In real close-quarters combat, size does not directly correlate to speed or dodging ability. There are tons of really huge fighters who can move like lightning--the US military has quite a few of them, for example.

 

The only possible way Papashan could be "heroic," then, is if he only fought people who were less skilled at fighting than him. Which doesn't make him very heroic since he would thus only fight battles he knows he can win. Look at it this way--a nine-year-old female martial arts student might be able to beat up an untrained, but otherwise average adult male. Maybe. If he was taken by surprise, perhaps. However, if the adult was trained, she would have no chance whatsoever. It would simply be no contest.

 

So, viewing this in the light of reality of combat, the use of magic to "amp up" a martial fighter makes all kinds of sense in the universe FFXIV is set in. Pretty much every physical weaponskill has flashy animations with colored lights and explosions--that would suggest that our attacks are "charged up" with aether. Because magic is magic, that would mean that actual physical qualities would fall to the wayside and the story goes out of its way to suggest that most Eorzeans have a similar capacity for aether (with the exception of some folks, such as Cid, who is Garlean, and that one THM questline lala).

 

Let's not even get into the fact that you've got a tiny little lalafell, the size of a very young human child (perhaps a bit pudgier) who can block castle-crushing attacks from a ten-meter-tall giant. Or a huge magitek mecha. Or a full-size dragon. Or any other number of equally monstrous and huge enemies that would, if combat was handled realistically, require full armies to actually take down, meanwhile it's shredding big male roe after big male roe with single snaps of its jaws.

 

Neither of the handwaves are especially "believable," but I consider the "magically amped up warriors" to be much easier to swallow than completely disregarding the basics of melee combat. In fantasy stories like these, which are fairly high-magic, not very dark thematically and have a strong action element, I always assume that magic is being used for far more than simply casting spells, but also to reinforce the strikes of melee fighters and help everyone take way more damage than a humanoid body should ever be capable of absorbing. I consider FFXIV to fall in the same category as RWBY, Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha and possibly even the Fate/Nasuverse, where all player characters are essentially on par with Servants in terms of how much ridiculous punishment they can take and just laugh it off.

There are techniques that compensate for a lack of reach and a difference in power/size/weight. And that's speaking realistically. However, reality does not apply here. What we may perceive as 'real' and acceptably normal may have little to no weight in a japanese fantasy game that none of us have written. 

 

There's a lot of 'I consider' and 'I assume' in that argument and it just helps to point to the fact that none of us really know exactly how things work in the storybook (game lol) world of Eorzea. Therefore, we each apply our own little slices of logic, our own 'opinion' to it. 

 

We may be right, we may be wrong -- but we don't know! Arguing an opinion vehemently is one thing, but it's really in no position to invalidate another that's within the same realm of supposition. If one person roleplayed a Lalafell with martial techniques to compensate for his size/reach/power and another who used aether to augment himself, BOTH would be fine! 

 

But, we digress! This thread was about girls and boys or something. Marriage! Has anyone kept track on which races have 'husband and wife' couplings? I know Lalafell do, and Hyur, from Tam Tara Deepcroft...what about the rest? It doesn't seem to be a part of Original Miqo'te culture...Sea Wolf Roegadyn females have 'wife' suffixes in their names, so maybe! I'm tryyying to think of an instance of Elezen...the guy who lost his lover in Coerthas, I think?

[allgivenover]

This is a fallacious rationalization and proves you know nothing about actual combat.

 

I agree with your reasoning about aether "amping" people up physically, but you would only benefit from dropping condescension from your rebuttals. Do you really want to open that can of worms? Because there's very little chance anyone here can honestly say they "know" something about actual combat.

 

Further you go on to draw an axiom from a sport that that has defined rules and restrictions and is pretty darn far from "actual combat", which has nothing of the sort.

 

Finally, when you throw weapons into the equation size begins to matter a whole lot less and technique can definitely prevail - though I do agree that the Lalafell size disadvantage is far, far greater than the comparatively smaller differences in human sizes and that's why I agree that we need some sort of magical explanation. (Also the whole blocking attacks from giant monsters thing)

[Dat Oni]

 

If this image is any indication, this thread just fixed the overabundance of female Miqo'te on the servers.

 

That aside, you guys have derailed from talking about gender roles...To who would win in a fight between a Lalafell and anything bigger than a Lalafell.

 

I don't see how the two are related in any way. *shrugs*

[Mae]

But, we digress! This thread was about girls and boys or something. Marriage! Has anyone kept track on which races have 'husband and wife' couplings? I know Lalafell do, and Hyur, from Tam Tara Deepcroft...what about the rest? It doesn't seem to be a part of Original Miqo'te culture...Sea Wolf Roegadyn females have 'wife' suffixes in their names, so maybe! I'm tryyying to think of an instance of Elezen...the guy who lost his lover in Coerthas, I think?

I want to say that I saw it alluded to in one quest out in Coerthas... there was a "my lord" and "my lady" exchange, and in the context I took it to be the same as "my lord husband" and "my lady wife"... another NPC talks about her 'beloved'. To be honest, though, I would assume that the region the NPC is in (or 'grew up in'...) would more often dictate to the husband/wife trends than race or clan.

[Crisiet]

But, we digress! This thread was about girls and boys or something. Marriage! Has anyone kept track on which races have 'husband and wife' couplings? I know Lalafell do, and Hyur, from Tam Tara Deepcroft...what about the rest? It doesn't seem to be a part of Original Miqo'te culture...Sea Wolf Roegadyn females have 'wife' suffixes in their names, so maybe! I'm tryyying to think of an instance of Elezen...the guy who lost his lover in Coerthas, I think?

I want to say that I saw it alluded to in one quest out in Coerthas... there was a "my lord" and "my lady" exchange, and in the context I took it to be the same as "my lord husband" and "my lady wife"... another NPC talks about her 'beloved'. To be honest, though, I would assume that the region the NPC is in (or 'grew up in'...) would more often dictate to the husband/wife trends than race or clan.

 

There is the elezen lady in coerthas that speaks of her betrothed, who was thrown into the witchdrop. There's also the elezen who asks you to retrieve his dead wife's wedding ring for him. I also spotted some elezen npcs in the same zone (Dragonhead, male and female), the female knight says to the other "We cannot keep doing this. Think of your wife." as it's heavily suggested that they're up to something... Naughty. Tsk tsk. 

 

I'm sure there are several examples outside of Coerthas of married elezen, I just can't quote them off the top of my head.