Gender roles

[Crisiet]

*reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.

 

I know right?

 

Honestly, I don't remember any allusion to rape in Coerthas. I do remember Little Ala Mhigo though, that one was blatant and pretty much used to show how super evil the baddies are. But these things have been talked about already in this thread so I won't continue.

[TheLastCandle]

*reads Liadan and Kellach's posts regarding Ishgard* Pff. Haters.

 

I know right?

 

Honestly, I don't remember any allusion to rape in Coerthas. I do remember Little Ala Mhigo though, that one was blatant and pretty much used to show how super evil the baddies are. But these things have been talked about already in this thread so I won't continue.

 

I seriously don't recall anything like that in Coerthas either.

[Zyrusticae]

Yeah, you're going to have to elaborate on that one.

 

The one in Little Ala Mhigo might have been a bit tasteless but it was heavily veiled/left as an implication on the part of the viewer, and I still can't recall an incident in Coerthas despite wracking my brain over it.

 

That's one instance that kind of happened and another that's unverified. That's not really very often, I would say.

[Kellach Woods]

That's one instance that kind of happened and another that's unverified. That's not really very often, I would say.

IIRC there's another implication in Ul'dah's storyline but since I'm replaying through that on another character I'll be able to properly evaluate whether that happened or not. I distinctly remember thinking "they seriously went there? AGAIN? (I'd just done Little Ala Mhigo)" Same with Coerthas (although that one is in a while).

 

Coerthas in a nutshell : "We hate you. Go away."

 

Really wish we had another zone in that level range so I could actually leave them to their troubles.

[Crisiet]

I've played through the main story three times now and seriously I did not see anything in Coerthas. Also, interestingly the Corpse Brigade's leader is a woman. I didn't know that until I happened across a FATE.

 

Oh. And let's not overlook Sastasha. That place will always make me uncomfortable.

[Kellach Woods]

So, uh.

 

Robotic sexual harassment level 15 Goldsmith quest.

 

Minor, but wholly unnecessary.

[allgivenover]

Frankly I can't imagine a setting that's honest about human nature while also being devoid of rape entirely - although XIV features "non-human" races they are not different enough to fall free of that assertion.

 

XIV is a bright game about heroes, but these heroes also live in a dangerous world alongside good and evil folk alike. One of the more subtle themes of the story is that the mortal races are a chaotic force composed of both light and darkness, and it shows in the setting.

 

Whether using rape is lazy or not is up for debate. I think that XIV could have gotten away without mentioning it ever and no one would've thought anything of it - mind you, this wouldn't have stopped any roleplayers from using the "rape as backstory" trope to their fullest indulgence - however SE chose to imply rape in the setting, so here we are.

 

The disturbingly blatant implications of Sastasha kind of shocked me, but even though it shocked me it also served well to illustrate that these pirates were a big problem for Limsa Lominsa and as a result it became way more important for me to get rid of them.

 

I also think XIV handles it in a way that I find acceptable - though I respectfully disagree with the crowd that believes that rape can never be used in a story acceptably I also understand that this is a very hot button issue with a lot of strong emotions surrounding it, so you'll not catch me arguing vehemently with those that feel this way.

 

The way that XIV uses it that I find acceptable is that SE doesn't use it to make a major female character appear weak or play it for cheap drama. In fact the incident in Little Ala Mhigo I thought was well done in the way that the victim asserted that she's going to be alright despite what happened (at least that's how I recall it, correct me if I'm wrong). It goes without saying that rape is an extremely horrible trauma for anyone to experience, but it was refreshing to see a character approach the aftermath from a position of strength rather than the more common emotional devastation that follows.

 

That's something you rarely see in media, as it's way way more common for raped characters to become fragile creatures that are forever marked and in need of delicate treatment or for them to become psychotic and fueled by a desire for revenge or random violence. These common portrayals and unfortunately real life reactions I think can be extremely harmful to a victim of rape as not only do they have to process their own feelings, they also have to contend with well-meaning but misguided people telling them that they are weak and/or damaged/marked/soiled or any number of negative projections. So in this case I thought it was unusual and welcome that they handled it differently.

[Seriphyn]

SE saying nunhs don't always lead the tribe and females do seems like they're covering their arses from the dodgy social structure of Seekers. In Forgotten Springs, a female asks "When is your next coupling, sister?". Quest dialogue from the nunh dude has him say "the word of the nunh is law, and those who do not listen shall have their ears cut off". I have a screenshot of it somewhere. 

 

Anyway, this is an interesting debate...you have damsel in distress characters in quest lines that reinforce the heteronormative cliche...then you have the pirates of the missing member...it's quite a mix.

[Naunet]

SE saying nunhs don't always lead the tribe and females do seems like they're covering their arses from the dodgy social structure of Seekers. In Forgotten Springs, a female asks "When is your next coupling, sister?". Quest dialogue from the nunh dude has him say "the word of the nunh is law, and those who do not listen shall have their ears cut off".

 

Yes, yes, but that's just one tribe. Whether or not it's SE covering their ass doesn't matter, because they have explicitly stated that nunhs don't usually lead the tribe. It's funny that they chickened out on having strong female leaders in their fan service tribe, though.

[allgivenover]

I don't really know what happened with that discrepancy. Perhaps a change in direction mid-development? Or they're just not explicitly stating that the forgotten springs tribe is an anomaly? Either way.

 

I think "fanservice tribe" is a little heavy handed in criticism - clearly I prefer Keeper of the Moon Miqo'te myself but I also think there's interesting cultural clashes and potentially positive portrayals that can come from the Seeker side of things. Conflict is good and a variety of portrayals is good. Whether or not someone is getting their jollies off the idea that Seekers live in a harem is irrelevant.

People give SE shit for the Seeker tribe now and then, but compared to some other games in the industry like WoW, every Korean MMO ever, and Wildstar (*shudder*), SE is pretty damn mild when it comes to fleshservice.

 

In fact they're the only one I can think of that provides a fair amount of beefcake along with the cheesecake fleshservice.

[Naunet]

I think "fanservice tribe" is a little heavy handed in criticism

 

I dunno. It's a tribe of mostly cat girls (marketed to a Japanese audience, no less) dressed in the skimpiest clothing the game has, complete with a not-so-hidden oasis where nearly naked ladies are bathing and flirt with you.

 

It's not a criticism of Seekers in general. But if the U tribe is not fanservice, then I don't know what is.

[111]

I think "fanservice tribe" is a little heavy handed in criticism

 

I dunno. It's a tribe of mostly cat girls (marketed to a Japanese audience, no less) dressed in the skimpiest clothing the game has, complete with a not-so-hidden oasis where nearly naked ladies are bathing and flirt with you.

 

It's not a criticism of Seekers in general. But if the U tribe is not fanservice, then I don't know what is.

 

Dang. Real life hunter gatherer tribes wear even less clothes then that. Glad they're going to such work to live a life of fanservice for us all.

 

They are hunter gatherers, in the desert. I'm not sure what you'd expect them to wear. If you look at what African tribespeople wear it's in the same ballpark. I guess they could be wearing burkhas or something.

[allgivenover]

I don't disagree, but calling it a fanservice race is kind of discarding all the good potential in my opinion.

Personally I have always been attached to the idea of matriarchies as extremely fascinating because it's something that's so absent from life here on Earth, yet no one would call that niche appeal fanservice. It's only labeled so if enough people are disgusted/putt-off by it as is the case with Seekers.

 

Everything you listed in support of labeling it fanservice is not inherently bad, it only becomes so when you place it next to the context that someone might be getting off to it in a way that disgusts you.

[Naunet]

Dang. Real life hunter gatherer tribes wear even less clothes then that. Glad they're going to such work to live a life of fanservice for us all.

 

They are hunter gatherers, in the desert. I'm not sure what you'd expect them to wear. If you look at what African tribespeople wear it's in the same ballpark. I guess they could be wearing burkhas or something.

 

Go look at the melanin production of African tribespeople and compare it to that of the U tribe. When you're lighter skinned, the key is to cover with lightweight and light colored fabrics, or you're gonna get burned and probably die of heatstroke.

 

@allgivenover: How many times do I have to say it's a criticism of the U tribe and not Seekers in general? Heck, I roleplay a Seeker and help manage a fan-made Seeker tribe. I obviously have nothing against their lore. But you're being a bit silly trying to claim that nearly naked, bathing cat girls in a Japanese game weren't intended as fan service.

[111]

Also it needs to be considered that they live in quite possibly the most dangerous area of any settlement. They are right next door to the Amaj, in Ifrit's stomping ground, and have no serious walls or defenses. It's also a giant desert full of sandworms and undead. Yet, they seem to be doing alright, and the village never seems like it's in peril. This is with a 1 to 10 gender ration.

 

So regardless of what they wear, or how much they like to flirt with PC's, clearly they are martial enough to survive there. The adopted sister of ash in the Beast tribe quests is also quite competent, despite her silly outfit, and she's not represented as being an anomaly. An entire tribe of women like that is nothing to fuck with, clothes aside.

[Naunet]

Yet, they seem to be doing alright, and the village never seems like it's in peril.

 

Did you not do the Amalj'aa dailies? The settlement is raided regularly, and there are dailies where you have to kill tempered...

 

I'm not sure why you're trying to defend the U tribe's strength or whatever. That's not something I commented on. I was simply pointing out the obvious that a lot aspects of the Forgotten Springs were clearly made with cat girl fan service in mind.

[Berrod Armstrong]

 

Go look at the melanin production of African tribespeople and compare it to that of the U tribe. When you're lighter skinned, the key is to cover with lightweight and light colored fabrics, or you're gonna get burned and probably die of heatstroke.

 

 Not too relevant to the main argument, but there are dark-skinned seekers in the game. I'm not quite sure if the U tribe has any from the top of my head.

 

I'd probably call the highlander males of the Ala Mhigan resistance fanservice as well, by what you seem to define it as. It's not just the catgirls! 

 

_{se is liberal with the manflesh as well}

[allgivenover]

But you're being a bit silly trying to claim that nearly naked, bathing cat girls in a Japanese game weren't intended as fan service.

 

That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that the fanservice is not the only characteristic of the tribe and that there's plenty of good lore there. It's your personal disgust that pushes you to label it a "fanservice tribe" when there's a lot of interesting stuff going on aside from what some guy playing the game may or may not be getting off too.

[Naunet]

Of course there is. The jest was that SE decided to make an exception to their stated rule and put males in charge of a settlement full of fan service. It amused me.

[allgivenover]

That's the other thing, we don't know if it's an exemption or if there was a mistake in the Miqo'te naming convention post on the lore forum  or if they changed design direction midway through and didn't communicate it where it needed to go.

 

The two sources directly conflict and personally I place more validity on the in game portrayal that features fleshed out characters and events that are tied to the main scenario plot than I do a blurb of translated text from a community rep on a topic that is way, way down the ladder of importance for the vast majority of players.

[Naunet]

That's your right. I'll continue using both the U tribe and the lore post as valid representations of possible Seeker tribe organizations.

[TheLastCandle]

Of course there is. The jest was that SE decided to make an exception to their stated rule and put males in charge of a settlement full of fan service. It amused me.

An exception to what stated rule, though? Lore states pretty explicitly that Keepers, not Seekers, are 'highly matriarchal.' The way this is stated (here) as one of the defining traits of Keeper culture makes it obvious (to me) that Seekers tend toward the opposite. What it does say is: "Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders." That doesn't imply in any way, shape, or form that it's common for Seeker females to lead in the way Keeper matriarchs do. What it does seem to suggest is that U'whatshisname and his tribe in Forgotten Springs are one of the few with a Nunh acting as leader.

[Naunet]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

[Berrod Armstrong]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

Actually, the U tribe isn't an exception to that at all. The statement says that nunh's aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is unusual, but that falls within the statement! It's not exceptional in the slightest! If it was stated that nunhs are never leaders, however, then it would be an exception.

 

*Kicks the English language*

[111]

It makes sense he's the leader, even if it's rare. Dude went and killed a primal, they live right next to one. Pretty reasonably the put the only person who actually has some experience in the matter in charge.