Gender roles

[Kage]

Personally I think that it means that Seeker tribes basically have leaders in all genders. So females... or a Tia or two. Nunhs are just rarely it. They really are just the breeding male.

 

I think that Keepers are just PREDOMINANTLY matriarchal in the sense that it is very very highly unusual for a male to be leader.

[111]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

Actually, the U tribe isn't an exception to that at all. The statement says that nunh's aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is unusual, but that falls within the statement! It's not exceptional in the slightest! If it was stated that nunhs are never leaders, however, then it would be an exception.

 

*Kicks the English language*

 

As another example. Isgardians are supposed to be xenophobic. Yet most of the Ishgardians you interact with in Coerthas think you're the greatest person ever. They even give supplies to Revenants Toll.

 

Does that mean Ishgardian's aren't xenophobic? No, it just means you can't infer the culture of an entire race yet. If they show more tribes all led by Nunh's then I'll agree with you.

[TheLastCandle]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

Actually, the U tribe isn't an exception to that at all. The statement says that nunh's aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is unusual, but that falls within the statement! It's not exceptional in the slightest! If it was stated that nunhs are never leaders, however, then it would be an exception.

 

*Kicks the English language*

This. "Usually" vs. "never." Honestly, the biggest thing that confuses me about your earlier post is your lamenting the lack of a Seeker tribe with strong female leaders. Not that there aren't; I think it's quite possible. But the way the blurb on Keeper lore makes a point of stating that Keepers of the Moon are 'highly matriarchal' kind of implies that such a thing would be rare for Seekers of the Sun tribes.

[Naunet]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

Actually, the U tribe isn't an exception to that at all. The statement says that nunh's aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is unusual, but that falls within the statement! It's not exceptional in the slightest! If it was stated that nunhs are never leaders, however, then it would be an exception.

 

*Kicks the English language*

 

Really. Really? All of this down to semantics? *facepalm* I think it's pretty clear what I was talking about.

[TheLastCandle]

I'm not really sure I understand what point you're trying to make. SE says nunhs aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is a clear exception to that. Uhm...?

Actually, the U tribe isn't an exception to that at all. The statement says that nunh's aren't usually leaders. The U tribe is unusual, but that falls within the statement! It's not exceptional in the slightest! If it was stated that nunhs are never leaders, however, then it would be an exception.

 

*Kicks the English language*

 

Really. Really? All of this down to semantics? *facepalm* I think it's pretty clear what I was talking about.

... 

 

I'll be more careful about asking clarifying questions in the future?

[Naunet]

I think it's more than a little nitpicky (and rather misplaced nitpickiness) to try and argue the difference between, "Nunhs are rarely Seeker tribe leaders" and "Most Seeker tribes are not led by nunhs". There's no real difference. "Most ___", and there are exceptions to the "most", which includes the U tribe. We're all saying the same darn thing.

[Berrod Armstrong]

Hmm. I'll scramble atop the shelves and pick this thing at the core. Essentially, I disagree about the U Tribe being fanservice. In terms of storytelling, the tribe seems written to facilitate the main story line -- more specifically, U'odh Nunh. As one of the company of heroes (RIP Tidus and Leviabeetus), his victory over a primal earned him leadership of his tribe.

 

But that's unusual! It could have been a female!

 

That's right! It could have been! But as we've seen in the storytelling of FFXIV, making something unusual gives it a certain emphasis and resonance. Nunh aren't usually leaders? Well this guy must have done something pretty darn special to have become one! The fact that there are 'scantily' clad females around doesn't really have much weight with regard to calling it fanservice. They wear the gear that's native to the region. The hot springs? A silly joke, but again, hardly fanservice. I do remember rubbing down Godbert Manderville's near nude form with oil at a hot spring, after all. 

 

I think perhaps we may be looking too deeply into what was simply meant to be a storyline's facilitator.

[Zyrusticae]

I will note that the Ala Mighans are also guilty of wearing gear that is extremely ill-suited to the desert.

 

You always cover your back, neck, and shoulders with light, light-colored fabric if you don't want to get sunburn. The rest of you could be naked for all I care, but the parts that are exposed most to the sun have to be covered. It's clear, however, that FFXIV's world simply doesn't care for this rule, in the same way you can run around in your bikini in Coerthas and your PC doesn't so much as shiver from the exposure.

 

So you know, yeah. Realism. Doesn't really work here, at least in this case.

[111]

Maybe he just has a really big dick.

 

Edit: Can we just stop with the stupid U tribe. It's just devolved into stupid nitpicking. Plenty of other gender issue fish in the gender issue sea.

[Kage]

The U tribe's nunh? Well he -is- one of the non tempered mercs who took out a primal for a bit and then well... he's a nunh.

[Naunet]

So you know, yeah. Realism. Doesn't really work here, at least in this case.

 

At least as far as the in-game models go. ^^; *continues to imagine her character(s) in desert-appropriate wear*

[111]

To move the conversation in a new direction.

 

How much do we know about the genders of the beast tribes? Besides the slyphs they seem to reproduce sexually. The Kobold quests show "Comely Kobold Lasses" so we know what their females look like. Theoretically Brayflox is a female as well I think.

 

Do we ever see female lizard people and fish people?

[Warren Castille]

So you know, yeah. Realism. Doesn't really work here, at least in this case.

 

At least as far as the in-game models go. ^^; *continues to imagine her character(s) in desert-appropriate wear*

 

In a world where potions and the like can restore someone from the brink of death, exposure to the elements is possibly the least-serious thing someone can worry about. Realism need not apply in any setting where magical healing is present.

 

Tangent: Given what we know about magic and what we fluff for healing, it's entirely plausible that our characters never need to eat or sleep. Ever. Any damage done by malnutrition would theoretically be restored any time we're healed and any effects of not sleeping would be similarly rejuvenated. You could, in theory, play a completely nude, completely-pale Duskwight elezen who fasts in the hottest parts of the Sagoli, sustaining yourself only on ethers, and still return to your lands without so much as a tan provided you keep yourself refreshed.

 

All canonical, if you decide it.

 

This argument is dumb.

[Warren Castille]

To move the conversation in a new direction.

 

How much do we know about the genders of the beast tribes? Besides the slyphs they seem to reproduce sexually. The Kobold quests show "Comely Kobold Lasses" so we know what their females look like. Theoretically Brayflox is a female as well I think.

 

Do we ever see female lizard people and fish people?

 

Eggs are laid and hatched, in the case of the Sahagin.

[Berrod Armstrong]

To move the conversation in a new direction.

 

How much do we know about the genders of the beast tribes? Besides the slyphs they seem to reproduce sexually. The Kobold quests show "Comely Kobold Lasses" so we know what their females look like. Theoretically Brayflox is a female as well I think.

 

Do we ever see female lizard people and fish people?

I remember giggling about a bit of lore that said that the male and female Amalj'aa looked pretty much the same and that only the Amalj'aa themselves could really tell. I'll try to source it later.

[Kage]

This thread? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/168780-Beast-Tribe-Naming-Conventions-I

 

Contrary to popular belief, both males and females exist...though it can be nigh on impossible to tell the two genders apart. Not only do they have similar outward appearances, but there does not even exist the concept of male and female names amongst the tribe. Even the Amalj’aa themselves have trouble distinguishing between the two sexes, but to them, this is not that high of a priority. Perhaps Brotherhood of Ash warleader Hamujj Gah says it best when he reminds you that to his people, “tribe, clan, gender--these details matter not.”

 

When it does matter (as during the mating season), however, biology takes over, with both males and females excreting unique scents which help, let’s say, reduce the possibility of an accident.

Accidents? T_T

[111]

 

-------------------

Amalj’aa

-------------------

 

Contrary to popular belief, both males and females exist...though it can be nigh on impossible to tell the two genders apart. Not only do they have similar outward appearances, but there does not even exist the concept of male and female names amongst the tribe. Even the Amalj’aa themselves have trouble distinguishing between the two sexes, but to them, this is not that high of a priority. Perhaps Brotherhood of Ash warleader Hamujj Gah says it best when he reminds you that to his people, “tribe, clan, gender--these details matter not.”

 

When it does matter (as during the mating season), however, biology takes over, with both males and females excreting unique scents which help, let’s say, reduce the possibility of an accident.

 

I really like the idea of an Amaj with a bad sense of smell just sexing everyone and hoping a baby comes out.

[111]

It is an interesting concept. What if even the Amaj themselves don't know their genders? They might just get the urge to make sexytimes with that good smelling person next door, not even knowing if they are female or male, or the other person is female or male, just that it feels good and a baby might come out of one of them.

[Berrod Armstrong]

This thread? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/168780-Beast-Tribe-Naming-Conventions-I

 

Contrary to popular belief, both males and females exist...though it can be nigh on impossible to tell the two genders apart. Not only do they have similar outward appearances, but there does not even exist the concept of male and female names amongst the tribe. Even the Amalj’aa themselves have trouble distinguishing between the two sexes, but to them, this is not that high of a priority. Perhaps Brotherhood of Ash warleader Hamujj Gah says it best when he reminds you that to his people, “tribe, clan, gender--these details matter not.”

 

When it does matter (as during the mating season), however, biology takes over, with both males and females excreting unique scents which help, let’s say, reduce the possibility of an accident.

Accidents? T_T

Yes this thread! Thank you Kage!

 

I always imagined an Amalj'guy dude with a cold trying to hook up with a sweet looking Amalj'gaal. 

 

*Hands desert flowers*

 

"...I am a male."

 

"...Oh."

 

"Please take some Nyquil, rumor has it that this is the fourth time. There are mucus tablets and other decongestants as well. For Ifrit's sake."

 

"I am so sorry. No homo?"

 

"Please go away."

[111]

"That was wonderful..." He strokes their scales, "Once I smelled you I knew we must mate. Our offspring will be beautiful."

 

"Ah... this is awkward, but I'm a dude."

 

"Oh." He sits there for a moment "I guess I'm gay."

[111]

It had been strange, finding a Ochu so far south, but it was easily slain. As it died though it sprayed its fragrant pollen into the air, covering his scales with sticky bits of yellow.

 

He tromped back to the village, looking forward to a good bath. As he walked through, the catcalls started, '

 

"Gurlllll..... you smell good."

 

"Hey Baby, let's make eggs."

 

"Yo sweet cheeks, are those scales real?"

 

He hurries home and locks the door behind him, confused.... and a little excited.

[Gaspard]

I usually don't think about it too much. I think Gender equality was pretty much established in the game the moment they've made every single leader of the three main cities a female. In regards to us, that'd be like America, Russia and Korea all having Female Presidents/Leaders.

 

So I'd say that Eorzea has no true Gender Roles (Given that females occupy so many vast and different roles, in a way, just as various as the ones that males do), and you can find both sexes in each type of job, faction and the likes. It's probably a matter of choice for many whether they adhere to old values of Chivalry (and likewise the females of their nurturing responsibility towards men and children), or whether they adopt more divergent philosophies.

 

The only ones that come loaded with a good degree of Gender Roles and Gender Inequality would be both Miqo'te sects. Seekers run a straight Patriarchy, where 'Big Daddy' Aka the Nunh has all the say and the rest is there to serve him/serve the pack, and likewise Keepers run a straight matriarchy, where you may very well consider it an Amazon like society, with men serving as little more then the walking child dispensers, and perhaps boys to be emotionally pampered by mommy, never burdened with the responsibility to become leaders as it's not in their nature. But beyond those two, I can hardly see any Gender Roles and/or differences being present in Eorzea, except for what singular Characters might consider their own opinion on it.

[TheLastCandle]

I usually don't think about it too much. I think Gender equality was pretty much established in the game the moment they've made every single leader of the three main cities a female. In regards to us, that'd be like America, Russia and Korea all having Female Presidents/Leaders.

 

So I'd say that Eorzea has no true Gender Roles (Given that females occupy so many vast and different roles, in a way, just as various as the ones that males do), and you can find both sexes in each type of job, faction and the likes. It's probably a matter of choice for many whether they adhere to old values of Chivalry (and likewise the females of their nurturing responsibility towards men and children), or whether they adopt more divergent philosophies.

 

The only ones that come loaded with a good degree of Gender Roles and Gender Inequality would be both Miqo'te sects. Seekers run a straight Patriarchy, where 'Big Daddy' Aka the Nunh has all the say and the rest is there to serve him/serve the pack, and likewise Keepers run a straight matriarchy, where you may very well consider it an Amazon like society, with men serving as little more then the walking child dispensers, and perhaps boys to be emotionally pampered by mommy, never burdened with the responsibility to become leaders as it's not in their nature. But beyond those two, I can hardly see any Gender Roles and/or differences being present in Eorzea, except for what singular Characters might consider their own opinion on it.

 

I can't help but find that last paragraph a rather.. oversimplified view of both Miqo'te cultures' workings, but I agree with everything else. Certainly with gender equality being the 'norm' in most of Eorzea. Even Ishgard has its share of female knights serving in the ranks, judging from NPC representation.

[Gaspard]

I usually don't think about it too much. I think Gender equality was pretty much established in the game the moment they've made every single leader of the three main cities a female. In regards to us, that'd be like America, Russia and Korea all having Female Presidents/Leaders.

 

So I'd say that Eorzea has no true Gender Roles (Given that females occupy so many vast and different roles, in a way, just as various as the ones that males do), and you can find both sexes in each type of job, faction and the likes. It's probably a matter of choice for many whether they adhere to old values of Chivalry (and likewise the females of their nurturing responsibility towards men and children), or whether they adopt more divergent philosophies.

 

The only ones that come loaded with a good degree of Gender Roles and Gender Inequality would be both Miqo'te sects. Seekers run a straight Patriarchy, where 'Big Daddy' Aka the Nunh has all the say and the rest is there to serve him/serve the pack, and likewise Keepers run a straight matriarchy, where you may very well consider it an Amazon like society, with men serving as little more then the walking child dispensers, and perhaps boys to be emotionally pampered by mommy, never burdened with the responsibility to become leaders as it's not in their nature. But beyond those two, I can hardly see any Gender Roles and/or differences being present in Eorzea, except for what singular Characters might consider their own opinion on it.

 

I can't help but find that last paragraph a rather.. oversimplified view of both Miqo'te cultures' workings, but I agree with everything else. Certainly with gender equality being the 'norm' in most of Eorzea. Even Ishgard has its share of female knights serving in the ranks, judging from NPC representation.

 

It is definitely over-simplified, And I am quite sure there are exceptions to it. However, with Keepers aswell as Seekers, both Patriarchy/Matriarchy seem to be ingrained Tribe properties, and are far more instinctual (and evolutionary) then anything else. My personal theory is that tribe-born Miqo'te for one are more tribal by nature (If raised in a tribe), and that also their sexual instincts do require those dynamics in order for them to be..well, willing to mate. Ofcourse played characters often do represent a large exception to Eorzeas actual citizens.

[Zyrusticae]

I can't help but wonder how much of the gender equality in Eorzea can be explained away by the fact that races like Roegadyn and Lalafell exist. With such massive racial extremes, delegating tasks by physical aptitude makes a lot more sense than doing so through gender divides, particularly since the difference between a Lalafell and a Roegadyn is much, much larger than that of a Hyur male and a Hyur female.

 

However, there's also the fact that Lalafell warriors are equally as effective in the role as any of the larger races. This is, of course, a concession to game mechanics, but it can also be explained away by one's ability being determined by a confluence of aether and their ability to manipulate it. Hence, physical strength is basically completely irrelevant relative to aether malleability.

 

Those of you who've done the Amal'jaa beastman quests may have noted that, with the merchant goods recovery quest, he questions how you managed to carry multiple large crates of goods all that way. The answer is obvious: you're superhuman thanks to your insane talent with all things aether (which also explains why you can train any class and any job with equal effectiveness), which may or may not be related to the blessing of Hydaelyn et al. Kind of a Mary Sue/Chosen One style of explanation, but that's how the PC works in this universe, and it's probably the reason why gender equality is actually a thing here (I mean, besides just being a nice thing to have IRL).

 

So, in summary: the answer is aether.