Law Enforcement and the Impossibility of Playing It

[Aya]

Oooooooh Ruru's GOON SQUAD!  I like this :-]

[Zhavi]

 

 

Ruru:

 

In addition to more/improved OoC communication, I'd suggest that, in a group full of folks that you know are supportive of your efforts and are there to work with you make something like this happen, you be a little more assertive. This doesn't mean forcing authority over someone via an arrest or something; it could mean, as Zhi mentioned earlier, that Melodia calls in Yellowjacket NPCs or something along those lines. Suddenly you have a Brute Squad facing down a tavern full of folks not willing to put their necks on the line for a single Keeper. I've found that conflict RP is a lot like chess - someone makes a move on the board that changes the field and puts you at a disadvantage, and it's up to you to counter in such a way to not only remove their advantage but gain one of your own (Osric ends up trying to do this a lot... sometimes he succeeds. >_>)

 

In all fairness, I think Ruru felt that he wasn't allowed to do something like that. He was flying solo, and everyone was doing their damndest to make it as hard as possible for his character. He hasn't done a role like this before (that I know of) -- it can be intimidating. I think facing all that opposition, he felt like there were no options for his character. (quick edit - using npcs for that sort of thing can feel like you're being powergamey. Ruru is the sort of player who tries to avoid that at all costs; I suggested using them when we talked, but at the time I'm betting he felt like that wasn't an option)

 

RP, as any social activity, has its share of learning processes!

[Verad]

My utopian vision would be a community of RPers (such as this one) that doesn't tell each other "I dictate what happens to my character." Where IC actions have universal IC consequences (like Law Enforcement involvement, cause really.....really? Limsa may be Tortuga, but I still see Yellowjackets all over the streets, people.) and players think "OH crap. I got myself into this situation, now I need to think of an IN CHARACTER way out" instead of "I don't like this. You can't tell me what to do."

 

Without making a value judgment on the concept, the problem is that there's just no way to enforce that in open consensual RP (well, okay, there are ways, but none that are good). Ultimately, control of your character in a consensual RP environment belongs to you and you alone. The only time you cede any control is when you join a group of other RPers, and even then you can take that right back by leaving.

 

Essentially, yes and no. While as said previously, there's nothing wrong with saying "I do not consent", it comes with its own issues. History being doomed to repeat itself, if you will. There's consent and then there's being wishy-washy. Optimally, if you're committing an open crime visible to the public at large, you're consenting to having the cops called on you. There's no valid precedent for being offended that you got busted for stealing someone's stuff, especially not with your hand in the cookie jar (hypothetically.) 

 

It's not about enforcement, but the evolution of roleplaying. The only way to keep it fresh and exciting is to be open to the excitement. Eventually, as evidenced myriad times before, we're all going to turn disillusioned. Really think about that. Some RPers love the random chaos of interacting freely and letting the chips fall where they may. Many do not and if you survey the statistics, it's those who don't that quit out of boredom. Controlling every aspect gets stale. RPing under the same paradigm gets stale. End game content grinds get stale. It's all the same principle. 

 

What I mentioned in my brief utopian blurb was more of an offering of inspiration. We're already a community and we're all awesome, why don't we find that middling ground in the form of a community standard and expand rather than isolate ourselves? Course, if the general populace likes the status quo then there's your answer and the discussion is nicely moot. 

 

Taking risks with any situation, real or fictional, keeps things invigorating, broadens horizons. That's all. 

 

And this is all one Hat's perspective too. I'm humble enough to admit that I may be off the mark, I watch the forums and make these statements based on observations of patterns.

 

Setting aside the logistical issues of establishing a community standard - which, quite apart from the issues of consent laid out by other posters, are numerous - none of what you are describing is interesting to me as a player.

 

Why should I want to "evolve" my roleplay? Why should I want to broaden my horizons? The game is a pastime. I enjoy it, and I enjoy writing for it, but I find that too many utopian roleplayers who buy into the idea of a shared, single community (this comes up so often that I now call it "the myth of community" and will continue to refer to it as such in the future), seem to think it needs to be something greater, something more than a group of people sporadically swapping stories back and forth with greater or lesser degrees of success. And where are these statistics saying I'm more likely to quit coming from, anyway?

 

My personal vision is much smaller. Call it a tabletop upbringing or not having started online RP in MMOs, where the myth seems to hold more sway, but I prefer small groups and small stories, and, accordingly, I prefer prioritizing OOC consent and player agency over IC consistency. And, to take this back to the original topic, I see that making law enforcement RP extremely difficult because there is no central, shared body of authority outside of consent. There are law enforcement players here who I would trust enough to consent to their involvement (and that is a rarity for me, so high praise for the server for that), but there are others out there who I can and will pretend don't exist because they conflict with how I see the setting.

 

At any rate, matters have cleared up for Ruru, so I will leave the thread be. If you want to continue this, please start a new thread.

[FreelanceWizard]

Essentially, yes and no. While as said previously, there's nothing wrong with saying "I do not consent", it comes with its own issues. History being doomed to repeat itself, if you will. There's consent and then there's being wishy-washy. Optimally, if you're committing an open crime visible to the public at large, you're consenting to having the cops called on you. There's no valid precedent for being offended that you got busted for stealing someone's stuff, especially not with your hand in the cookie jar (hypothetically.) 

 

I'm with you on this. Either you're consenting to interaction when you RP in public, or you need to be doing it in private; someone trying to commit a crime is exactly the sort of thing that should get a response, and you really shouldn't non-consent a reasonable response ("Stop thief!" is one thing, "*casts Flare*" is quite another). I think most RPers are onboard with that, and hypothetically, if L'yhta were caught doing something criminal, I'd take my IC consequence lumps. We don't need a community consensus or LEO RPers with blanket authority and far-reaching consequences to make that work. We just need sensible people and OOC communication.

 

EDIT: Clarified a little.

[Aldotsk]

To what Freelance said,

 

If you don't want law enforcement to chase after you, be sure to commit crime in a narrow street where no one's looking around. In an area with huge amount of people, there will be a commotion and someone will come after you.

 

But OOC communication is always the way to solve problems.

[111]

As a person who has played both both a Brass Blade and sultansworn at differing times it's a complicated question.

 

Normally I don't ever try to arrest anyone who isn't already expecting it. Generally when I approach people in the city it's because they are being ICly disruptive. All I usually do is just ask them to calm down, or take it elsewhere. Normally while people are pissed off ICly, they tend to go along with it, because it's kind of cool!

 

What's the point of pulling out your sword in the quicksand if you don't get a reaction. I like to be that reaction, but I also don't want to interrupt their RP. It's kind of a fine line.

 

As Osric said, the Sultansworn are not law enforcement. I don't try to act like it. When people don't listen to me ICly, I just play it off, since she really doesn't have any official authority to arrest people. When I am arresting/fighting people it's always part of plots where the Sultana has some sort of interest in it.

 

I liked playing a Brass Blade while it lasted, but it got pretty lonely pretty fast. Everyone was so very mean ICly to my character (Which they were justified for), and while it was all IC, eventually it became not that much fun to do.

[Faye]

Amen. Most people want to RP their characters breaking whatever laws, codes of conduct, and morals they please with no consequences, or rather with consequences on their terms, how they want, when they want. It's sadly common (but a couple months ago I saw a couple characters verbally and physically threatening a waitress at the Quicksand right outside the tavern and when some characters went to reprimand them, they immediately bolted before OOCly giving anyone else time to post). In my opinion, people who RP like that are terrible role-players. And you shouldn't let some bad RPers ruin your fun. If you want to play a law enforcement character, don't let them dissuade you. Keep at it, and you'll find some other decent, like-minded role-players. Ignore the bad eggs and don't let them ruin your fun. If someone's RP is going to defy logic and fairness, end that RP immediately and try again with someone else.

 

There are people who want to RP characters acting as villains/criminals blatantly in public places and expect to have their character face no consequences. On the flip side, there are people RPing heroes and law enforcement officials who will greatly abuse their power and metagame because they have the mentality that the "good guy" must always win. Both are bad, and both can be remedied with a little consideration for the other role-players, some mindfulness to fairness, and some attention to the logical repercussions of the RP.

 

So I guess my two cents is: Law enforcers - don't let bad RPers get you down and keep at it, but remember sometimes the bad guys do win. Law breakers - if you want your RP to go a certain way with specific/minimal consequences, do it in private and/or in a controlled environment.

[Rosekitten]

I agree with Faye.. as well as several other points made in this thread actually. I remember back when you first started talking about forming a Yellow Jacket group ic'ly. Honestly I was more then excited and I tried to lend a hand back then to get you on your feet or to show support... Granted at that time I couldn't do much ic'ly to assist your cause but still. 

 

I say stick to your guns. There will always be those out there who refuse to play by any rules. I think with a little bit of work and once you get a few fellow Jackets at your side things could go very well or at least a step in the direction you first envisioned for the role. ^^

[Aduu Avagnar]

I'm not even playing a law enforcement officer and I had a complaint about trying to arrest someone ¬_¬ (despite simply trying to split up a disruption in the Quicksand.)

[ZindelloTarantella]

Faye pretty much covered my point. Part of the fun of playing a criminal is not getting caught; so after you do it long enough you kinda feel entitled to NOT get caught. That's the thing though; at least in Ul'dah, we (the players) have been provided with an out by means of bribes. It may not work in Gridania, but in a place like Ul'dah, you could always get arrested and then hand wave it fifteen minutes later by saying 'Oh, well, the Blades speak my language. -jingles gil-"

 

And yeah, most people see 'Criminal Activity = Arseholery' instead of 'Criminal Activity = Going against the law'. Yeah sometimes being an arse IS against the law but most time it's just being a troll/bully. And yeah, a character MAY be a troll/bully but they're more likely to get a good punch in the mouth and forced to choke on their own teeth than arrested for it outright.

[Ilithyia]

To Ruru, for one I am surprised I have not run into you at some point over this llast month of your adventuring into Limsa law enforcement. don't give up hope just yet, in fact seek me out! same goes for any other Yellowjackets here. Even if I am AFK at least send a message or friend request, look forward to meeting you or any other interested parties.   ~ Ilithyia Aureus

[Atlas]

I played as a member of law enforcement in Guild Wars 2 for about a year. We were thankful to be part of a community that generally accepted us. We had an unofficial motto that "we only have as much power as he community gives us." Meaning that for anything where we would be interrupting an RP scene, we would first ask for OOC consent. Usually the players were happy to let us intervene, but when they weren't we backed off. Simple as that. Same goes for arrest. Ask OOCly first, then go ahead ICly. OOC communication between both parties is key.

 

Of course there were some members of the community that would constantly commit crimes and not recognize our IC "authority". That's fine. We had a list of players that didn't recognize us and didn't try law enforcement RP with them. Now I'm not going to say that our system was perfect, some people got pushed the wrong way and our upper leadership structure was corrupt. But it worked, and most seemed happy. 

 

Law enforcement RP works as long as both parties understand the value of OOC communication, and the law enforcers understand they have no real power. I know, I have a year of experience with it.

[OttoVann]

Im just sayin but I'd let Crofte arrest me :^)

 

On a serious note, for me personally, I would be ok with being arrested if only because ICly theres no way you can hold me in a cell for long. Im just too wealthy and The Synidcate would help me. Which is why I would be so non-chalant if someone tried to. But, I dunno. Some people who play "cop" are just asshole little-Napoleans and it can show and I have a hard time respecting their character when it shows like that. Its a two-way street.

[Warren Castille]

Paladins have a bit of a cheat when it comes to this stuff: We get to use the ephemeral boogey-man "If you keep it up, I'll call the Brass Blades, and they're behind quota this period" threat. It's had more than a few people fall in line in my experience, but I don't envy anyone playing actual-enforcement. In my experience, the types of people to make looming threats and do stupid things in public are the type to laugh in your face when you try to stop them. Not naming any names, but, sometimes it's best to just ignore some folks when they start raising their rabbles.

[Val]

Paladins have a bit of a cheat when it comes to this stuff: We get to use the ephemeral boogey-man "If you keep it up, I'll call the Brass Blades, and they're behind quota this period" threat. It's had more than a few people fall in line in my experience, but I don't envy anyone playing actual-enforcement. In my experience, the types of people to make looming threats and do stupid things in public are the type to laugh in your face when you try to stop them. Not naming any names, but, sometimes it's best to just ignore some folks when they start raising their rabbles.

 

Pretty much this. While I don't generally condone it, I think that characters that constantly cause threats and expect their character to get away without any consequences to their actions are better off ignored. Yes, sometimes the bad guys/villains win and get away. Will they always do it? I don't know; maybe, if they're smart enough. Will they always get away unscathed? Highly unlikely.

[Warren Castille]

Therein lies the "problem" with playing either a Magnificent Bastard or a Detective type; These characters are effectively defined by their successes or losses. In a world without a definite end (for the time being, RIP CoH) there's no room for a single major climax; The villain CAN'T get caught, the hero CAN'T win irrefutably. It's a game of cat and mouse that can't finish without ending the role of the avatar, and in an MMO that's just not practical.

 

There are plenty of people out there who know this and don't make Giant Grand Moves but play in the shadows, and that works great. A lot of wiggle room between Those Seeking and Those Hiding to maneuver around each other. But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

[ZindelloTarantella]

After reading through the larger body of this thread, I came to a realization about the idea of a main-body of authority and why it can't work.

 

How do I know? Personal experience.

 

I have seen games where this was done and it did two things:

 

1. Made the RP community seem like a group of self-righteous and cliquish pricks to those not involved in the main community.

 

2. Eventually destroyed the community.

 

I'll pull again from my Champions Only experience here. Champions had a main RP group that was by far the largest. While you could indeed have your small groups, this main group was sort of the go-to if you wanted to be involved in RP. Kinda like how Balmung is a designated server, this group had a massive community of IC chats (which was essentially a radio frequency your hero could tune into to connect with and talk to other heroes, either to shoot the breeze or call for back-up etc). Now this group was great. They had a few appointed individuals that were largely in charge through seniority and having helped established this main ruling body, as well as having the folks that were good at coordinating the events and the like. Costume contests, massive RP arcs spanning months of real-time, all that jazz.

 

But then tragedy. The IC Channel was in-lore of the group established by PRIMUS (the U.S. Government) and had 'dispatchers' who would listen in constantly to make sure the conversations were in-keeping with the government's standards (transaltion: mods who would ensure players didn't do/say anything that was breaking rules or picking fights or flaming). I'm sure you see where this is going.

 

Because everyone had to adhere the whatever these 'dispatchers' said, if you didn't do what they said, you were cut off from the channel ICly. If your character was cut off, you were essentially screwed because then you had no way to communicate with the community as a whole. This would quickly lead to missing events, being shunned ICly (which as well all know can lead to OoC shunning).

 

Eventually, this Utopian RP Group eventually began to be seen as cliquish by all other players of Champions Online (both RPers not involved and even NON-Rpers who saw them as rigging contests and even whole events for the sake of their favored members).

 

I was there until the end, watching it slowly collapse in on itself. Nothing held weight anymore. Players (great players) who had characters that were out-spoken or vigilantes were cut out ICly, leaving only players that followed the rules. Those players didn't want to do anything to risk being cut out themselves so their characters got blase about threats or the same stories were told over and over again.

 

'Oh, someone planted a series of bombs in Westide? Someone else will take care of that...'

 

I saved that quote to remind myself that it was actually said. In character by a hero that had saved the world and had, at one time, been a passionate leader. OoC, the player told me that they simply did not want to risk pissing off the wrong people by going to events anymore.

 

And so you see, a main body, on paper, will always, always look grand.

 

Karl Marx saw a vision of Utopia too, but we saw what happened with that. (And I mean the actual Revolution and it's results, not actually the idea of Communism). The people cannot rule themselves. It can't be done. And unless you find that very special person that can rule completely fairly and without being HUMAN then no, Utopian RP Communities will sadly always be a myth.

 

Especially where one tries to establish a body of law enforcement.

[Aya]

But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

Don't let anyone ruin anything for everyone! Just ignore it... some people are like that

[Melkire]

That's... a rather extreme case, Tarot. I don't think anyone here - or on Balmung in general - is advocating for some sort of in-game governmental body that seeks to enforce a set of IC and OoC rules with or without consent.

 

We're talking about playing cops & robbers, not Welcome Your New Overlords 2014.

 

 

 

EDIT: Okay, maybe Black Hat was calling for a Utopia. Other than him, I mean. =P

[OttoVann]

But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

 

Does this actually happen?

[Warren Castille]

Especially where one tries to establish a body of law enforcement.

 

And with this string, your assessment is dismantled! Lo, watch how I pull it!

 

Specifically, nobody here is attempting to establish anything. No one's Captain of the Guard, nobody is creating a freelance body of police. Those of us who play Sultansworn or Yellow Jackets still have IC-NPC people to report to. There's not really any room for people to go above their heads, since we're all pretty strictly adhering to the status quo.

 

The series of events you're referring to can be fully accredited to douches not wanting to let anyone else have fun with THEIR world they were setting up; I can't speak for anyone but myself but I think I'm fairly content to exist in the world SE's created for us. I'd like to believe most of us have no agenda on trying to force civility or justice on the world.

[Warren Castille]

But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

 

Does this actually happen?

 

It did. Those of us present had a good laugh about it. My headcanon is that he got dragged off and executed for his crimes, so I just ignore him when he's around anymore.

[Aya]

But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

 

Does this actually happen?

I don't remember the details, but I was present for the encounter Warren is describing, and yes it did.

[Melkire]

But then there are the "I just attacked a bunch of Immortal Flames players and am now sitting in the Quicksand bragging about it also I just threw a trio of knives at a Free Paladin as I was teleporting out" types that ruin everything forever for everyone.

 

Does this actually happen?

 

Yes. I can attest to that from personal experience. *shudders*

 

Not sure if this was the same incident I was in attendance for, though.

[OttoVann]

Gosh makes me wonder if my RP is shitter-tier and bothers people. I try to make up things as I go when I do approach RP, sometimes its ridiculous aka my acting like Armstrong from FMA sometimes its more serious I dunno.

 

Ill need a mentor.