When a player takes IC as OOC.

[Michelleswain]

Before I begin let me preface this by saying, this is not a discussion on the usage of meta information in in-character role-play. I would prefer that the discussion on meta information usage be left for a different thread.

 

This discussion focuses solely, on a rather large demographic of role players that are using In Character role-play as a direct affront to their person.

 

IC: In Character

OOC: Out of Character

Meta Information usage: This is when a role player uses meta information; Forum Write ups, Name tag hovering over a character, god modding sources, etcetera when role playing. This discussion is not about this sort of OOC in IC behavior. I would prefer it taken to a different thread.

In Character bleeding into Out of Character actions: The is when a player, role plays their character in a fashion where a typical role player assumes they are In Character. However, the player is actually taking all actions, stigmas, prejudices, political dispositions, money discussion, as Out of Character actions. This is the topic I would like to have a discussion about.

 

A lot of you are about to tell me; "But that never happens, we all assume if we're role playing all of that IC, the player shouldn't be taking that OOC". Unfortunately there is a string of self proclaimed "Light Role-players" or "New Role-players" that are not aware of the hard 4th wall dividing these two modes of play. This wouldn't be a problem if it weren't for that some of these players are actually leaders of Role-playing guilds, or officers in such guilds. I use the term guild since it applies to other MMOs as well (equivalent to Free Company).

 

This is a growing problem in the role playing community and it has to stop! If I was to peg the death of role playing in various MMOs I would say it lands squarely on the shoulders of this behavior. Not enough efforts are being put forth by role playing community leaders in stopping this behavior. Often times; "but they're a good person, and they have done a lot for me in game" is used to excuse these actions.

 

Example A: In a certain MMO I played a really haughty, uppity, stuck up, xenophobic character, although she was not a villain by any measure. She was a bit of a socialite and although she may have had reservations with some people, eventually she would warm up to them. However, she was very vocal of her political standing in the realm and which kingdom she would side with. Unfortunately, certain players would take her approach as attacks on them personally. After some investigating, one of the players whom I had role played with had been telling their friends that I personally didn't like them, breaking the wall between IC and OOC.

 

Rather than role play out why the character had her reservations (based on game lore), they preferred to just generalize me the player, as not liking them, the player!

 

This was all cleared up, but by then I had had enough and shortly after quit the game.

 

Example B: This occurred just recently in FFXIV, names and such obviously omitted. I have formed a small and growing group of role playing friends. One of them started a plot involving the search for various relics. While sitting at the tavern I asked a Free Company member (not in my role playing group) if they'd like to role play with us since they had asked if there was any role playing going on. Keep in mind I joined this Free Company for the purpose of networking with role players.

 

So this FC officer joined in the story. We were to venture to Sunken Temple and retrieve some potential relics. While in the temple they role played that they were a very headstrong and resolute warrior as well as a bit careless. So much so that at the end of the dungeon they passed out into a coma! Personally, we all had fun and had looked forward to the continuation of this story.

 

Upon the continuation of our role play, my character was accused of being careless as well as responsible for "medical bills" incurred by this warrior that accompanied us. My FC Officer (the one playing the warrior) asked that I pay these bills in actual game gil. When I questioned this, not only did they demote me in the FC itself but they became very defensive in FC chat.

 

Keep in mind that at no time was any of us aware that we or I were responsible for actual gil payment if the IC warrior in question had an IC effect (such as their IC role played coma). Additionally I was never informed that the FC was a hardcore IC affects OOC company.

 

Example C: This has happened to several of my characters, and I'm sure some of you have also experienced this. You strike up a role play with another role player. Inevitably the other Player falls in love with your character. Which to them means, you two Players are a couple. They more or less are always checking on you through whispers, are asking for out of game contact information (email, social media, etcetera). They become heavily offended bleeding into IC when you reject them IC and/or OOC. The problem is exacerbated when the player in question is a guild officer.

 

Steps I have taken to avoid these situations

-I've begun to do a lot more heavy due diligence when forming role playing friendships. I now only invite to my LS those role players whom I've role played for a while and know for certain that they do not take IC into OOC. Even though the list is small; Quality over Quantity.

 

-When role playing in public spaces (such as taverns and such), I no longer mention names IC of a character that isn't present and active in the role play. For example:

 

"Damn that Lancelot! How dare he betray us and take the grail for himself! That bloody hygur!"

 

is now turned into:

"Damn! I can't believe they did that! They betrayed us and took the grail!"

 

Note the lack of race and name. I understand that it makes my character sterile, unfortunately until more of the role playing community gets involved and active in stopping the use of IC being taken into OOC I will continue to water down my characters so that no one can be offended.

 

-When joining an FC (or Guild) I'm taking a much more active approach in fully learning what type of organization they are and where they land on the role playing scale. The above example B was a case where I assumed they were role players (based on previous role play) but found out the hard way they pre dominantly weren't.

 

-I now steer clear of any role playing guild that isn't clear on their IC use as OOC policy as well as now make sure I check with all officers of said free company.

 

Steps to identify such players

I've become pretty good at identifying these sorts of players. I will share some of my methods below to help avoid these situations:

 

-Lack of a consistent background, and/or refusing to take any lore based input. They may also refuse to accept any role-playing community conventions (such as those described in this forum).

Typically they are quiet and never quite explain what their character is about. For the most part they may be distant.

 

Note: Although the quiet, in the corner, reclusive type character is valid for me, unfortunately they have ruined it for me since most players taking IC into OOC hide behind this persona. As such unless you make an active effort to make it known why your character is how they are an what in-lore background caused that (i.e. they're a bounty hunter, spy, diplomatic scout, etcetera), I will assume otherwise. Even James Bond, Batman, Boba Fett, Cowboy Beebop, had lines, and through their lines and actions (not lack of dialogue) helped tell the audience more or less their persona.

 

-I ask myself this question: "Can I describe their character without using their appearance?". If the answer is no, I begin taking precautions and will wait for additional role play sessions before moving forward.

 

-If at any time I see they are mixing OOC with IC, or if they begin treating me OOC in reference to my character I will take precautions. For example; My character in FFXIV is a bit naïve and bubbly. If I start being treated OOC as ignorant of the game or as a child by the player I role played with, it's safe for me to assume they're treating IC as OOC.

 

-The player may be distant to anything involving role play, game lore, racial backgrounds, may claim to be a Light or New Role-player (see below) and instead are more involved OOC.

 

-They tend to have multiple maxed out characters. Have maxed out most if not all professions (gathering-crafting), are top tier, and are mostly into the raiding scene. It may take a bit of effort to even get them to role-play if at all. Although this is not always the case! I typically combine this with various other factors before making a decision.

 

New Role Players

Now you may assume from this post that I don't like new role players. That is far from the truth and I've had my best role players be new to role playing entirely.

There is a large difference between an actual New Role Player, and a false one taking IC into OOC and dressing it up as just being new to role play.

-Legitimate New Role Players typically (but not always) do not have multiple maxed out characters and top tier equipment. This is not always the case! Although this a warning sign only when combined with other signs described above.

-Legitimate New Role Players will ask for role playing advice, they will ask questions about race backgrounds, lore, or political dispositions of the various realms. If they don't ask, they are very receptive to advice you give them. Most New Role Players welcome websites you give them (Hydaelyn Role-players, FFXIV Lore Wiki, etcetera).

 

In summary; I think we should all make an effort at raising awareness among the role playing community regarding this issue. I believe Role players taking IC actions into OOC, is the driving cause of the loss of role playing communities in various games (second to lack of developer support). When a guild officer or leader takes IC actions into OOC, it can have an emotional affect on the player, and a debilitating affect on the guild as a whole as the player may leave the guild/free company.

 

Guild/Free Company Leaders: Should make an active effort and disclaimer in black and white. IC actions are not to be taken as OOC and should root out an officer or member that is doing this (either through using guild policies or advice). I've met several guilds that aren't clear on this or tend to leave it to a "Role-play officer" who is further confused.

 

New Players: Should be informed of the hard 4th wall dividing In Character personas and Out of Character. If this 4th wall is to be broken, all players engaged in the role play should be acutely aware.

[Enteris]

This, unfortunately, is not a new issue. It's been around since the days of MUDs and even before... going into tabletops. It's, also unfortunately, the nature of the beast. 

 

People, whether they be "new" or "veteran", invest a lot of thought and emotion into their characters. Through immersion, or other means, one can easily get lost in their character... and while in this mindset, become offended OOCly from IC actions.

 

Many guilds/companies have policies reflecting that which you've asked, "IC does not equal OOC" or some variant. Most guilds/companies that I'm aware do put a hard boot to this type of behavior as well, my own included.

 

That being said, there isn't really too much we can do, unless you want us to take actions that are just shy of profiling..

 

"Are you new to roleplaying? Yes? Well... here are all the rules:...."

 

I doubt that would help the roleplaying community and would instead have the opposite of the desired effect. It may make roleplayers see roleplaying as a job, more than a fun hobby.

 

Short of having a "NEW ROLEPLAYERS COME TO THIS" event where you teach them the rules in mass, I'm not sure exactly what you'd like us to do. And, again, such an event would likely scare more of them off than actually invite them in.

 

The only thing we can do, that I can think of anyway, is while roleplaying with said offenders... bring it up in whispers, party, etc. that what they did is a bad move. Then, of course, offer advice to rectify the situation. If they're the type that want to plug their ears and shout "alalalalala" while you talk to them in this manner... stop the RP and move on. Hope that one day they'll learn and become a more desirable member of the RP community.

 

You can't force someone to learn...

[Rythulian]

-They tend to have multiple maxed out characters. Have maxed out most if not all professions (gathering-crafting), are top tier, and are mostly into the raiding scene. It may take a bit of effort to even get them to role-play if at all.

 

I'm just going to pull this part up for citation. It just seems like a really weird thing to make assumptions over especially when there are people on the larger servers from a variety of different timezones. Not to mention, RPers actually playing the game to take a break from writing? Colour me surprised.

 

Also that wording on the last line, just makes it sound as though you've tried to get people who aren't interested in RPing to try to do it.

[Delilah Scythewood]

A lot of this is stuff I have seen and had experiences with in the past. Though it seems to be with the newer generation of RPers rather then the older ones. I didn't used to come across a lot of the IC/OOC blending and breaking the 4th wall until the last...three years? At least that I could tell. Starting with WoW, though it wasn't very prominent to me on there until the last six months I was in the game. When I left the game was when GW2 had just come out so I went over there.

 

THAT'S when it got bad. In sooo many ways.

 

One of my last experiences before I left that game was a previous RP partner asking me invasive questions about what my character had been doing sexually since they separated. It went from being a mostly innocent question in a player-to-player context to them getting very callous when I gave a rather vague answer. Found out later they had tried asking around to people to see what my character had been doing and then came back to me as if to test me on the knowledge. When I got annoyed that they were being rude about it I ended up getting kicked. Well, technically, I left, but I was out of the guild whether I liked it or not. No love lost there.

 

Another episode was an old RP partner getting mad because I went and RPed with another person without him. Even started harassing me over whispers and in Skype and at one point demanded I screen share with him so he knew exactly where I was. That night I blocked and deleted him from Skype and never RPed with him again.

 

Now, on topic...

 

As an FC leader I made sure that the IC/OOC separation rule was one of the first things I posted. Because it is becoming one of the largest problems I see in the community, and because it's one of the biggest complaints I get about other characters. Almost ALWAYS in a romantic context of some kind (so-and-so dated so-and-so and made such-and-such sad, boohoo) and such negative feelings are almost always tied OOC. Almost always.

 

Though I think, at least on the new RPer front, most people either take things too easy and don't drive some of these points home...or are neglectful. They either don't emphasize certain barriers or ground rules, or let too many mistakes slide without pulling them aside and being nice about explaining why whatever it was they were doing was bad. In the case of this thread, IC/OOC not being separated.

 

And neglectful in how more often then not there's a number of people who avoid new RPers like the plague because they do NOT have the patience to teach them the 'ways of the world'. Which, hey, I can understand. But we were all there before. We were all new, inexperienced, and started off in some less then eloquent places. *cough*MSNGroupsYuYuHakushoRPGsite*cough*

[Pumpkinweed]

Example B: This occurred just recently in FFXIV, names and such obviously omitted. I have formed a small and growing group of role playing friends. One of them started a plot involving the search for various relics. While sitting at the tavern I asked a Free Company member (not in my role playing group) if they'd like to role play with us since they had asked if there was any role playing going on. Keep in mind I joined this Free Company for the purpose of networking with role players.

 

So this FC officer joined in the story. We were to venture to Sunken Temple and retrieve some potential relics. While in the temple they role played that they were a very headstrong and resolute warrior as well as a bit careless. So much so that at the end of the dungeon they passed out into a coma! Personally, we all had fun and had looked forward to the continuation of this story.

 

Upon the continuation of our role play, my character was accused of being careless as well as responsible for "medical bills" incurred by this warrior that accompanied us. My FC Officer (the one playing the warrior) asked that I pay these bills in actual game gil. When I questioned this, not only did they demote me in the FC itself but they became very defensive in FC chat.

 

Keep in mind that at no time was any of us aware that we or I were responsible for actual gil payment if the IC warrior in question had an IC effect (such as their IC role played coma). Additionally I was never informed that the FC was a hardcore IC affects OOC company.

 

This is very, very crude. Role play is meant to be fun and if a player wants to go above and beyond to provide money to solidify their wealth, that is one thing- but to force that onto a player is bad form.

 

It sounds like you're on the right track to recovery. Quality over quantity indeed.

 

We all want to get along with each player we encounter but in the end, heads will butt (IC at least), but the moment the lines are crossed into the OOC realm it becomes fairly evident how disassociated the player is in terms of communication- which is linked to real life issues. People want to get lost into the glamour of a story... so much that everything has to become perfect. Don't allow someone's disillusion persuade you from continuing.

 

If you ever want to role play, hit me up here or in game! You seem to have a good head on your shoulders. :thumbsup:

[Kellach Woods]

Whenever I read these threads I'm like "How do you people keep running into those people?" I mean, I ran into one a few years ago in another game, and after figuring this out I went "nope never again" and, y'know, learned my lesson and moved on.

 

I get that I don't put myself out there nearly half as much as most of you do, but if this is really a recurring problem, why not just, y'know, let them flounder in their misery?

 

I also kind of laugh at the idea that there are rules because a) they can't be enforced (the site here has rules - RP in-game has guidelines) b) they're not even agreed upon for the most part. Most of us will follow the "Be Excellent to Each Other" tagline the site has, but that doesn't mean everyone frequents the site, that everyone will follow it at all times (we all make mistakes) or that there'll be people/FCs that have their own rules that run against that.

 

Honestly this really feels like a prejudiced diatribe against new players more than anything else.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Whenever I read these threads I'm like "How do you people keep running into those people?"

My close friends complain I'm too understanding. I tend to give multiple chances before emptying out my 'give a fuck' pockets and then saying 'hit the road' long after many others would. There's been enough people that deserved it sooner, but there have been a handful of others over the last decade and a half who have made me happy I gave them the extra chances to buck up.

[Kellach Woods]

I hear that. I have a friend who was like that in WoW. She gave people multiple chances to show how screwed up they were, but at the same time she gave me a chance when I DID screw up to a) explain myself and b) actually make it up to her. It's not a bad trait to have. Just one that can get taken advantage of by unscrupulous people or people that just plain don't know better.

 

It's also funny because she's in a happy relationship and so was able to properly RP relationships with me or her other friends in part because of that.

[Clover]

Haha, even I have dealt with this kind of problem. The case I have in mind was about a girl (not from this community) who was very defensive/possessive about her boyfriend's character. She hated other female RPers whose characters might be friends with her boyfriend's character (not even in a romantic level, just good friends). None of my characters was close to his, but this girl also seemed to take it personally when one of them lost respect for him ICly

 

Luckily for me, I haven't encountered this kind of case often.

[allgivenover]

Players taking IC as OOC is just something that happens in RP scenes. You'll even see it manifest on these very forums in the way people talk about their characters as if they are those characters. For example using personal pronouns when talking in OOC forums about their character (I, my, me) instead of "my character" or [character name].

 

One aspect you didn't touch on is something that the vast majority of roleplayers mix IC and OOC with all the time; not creating a separate mindset for your character that doesn't look at the world they live in through the player's very modern view

 

For example, most players in this scene takes being able to read for granted. All of us players were raised in a culture where literacy is extremely prevalent and the vast majority of roleplayers port this mindset straight into their character. In Eorzea being able to read and write is a big deal, but despite that most roleplayer's characters have little or no reaction when it comes to light that others are literate, in fact it's more noted in roleplay when someone CAN'T read or write.

 

Why? Because being able to read is just something everyone they know can do in real life, and because many players don't create a separate worldview for their character there is an entire cultural aspect of the lore that is largely left untouched and in fact the reactions to illiterate characters are often completely backward from what they should be; "What, you can't read!?"

 

Another great example of this mixing IC and OOC is traditional Seeker tribe lore. That is so contrary to a modern mindset that many players cannot discuss it without dissolving into a frothing rage.

 

OP seems to have a good handle on identifying the worst offenders when it comes to players who mix IC and OOC, but the truth is the vast majority do it in more subtle ways without even realizing it. It's just something you have to accept is going to happen in the scene while doing your best to navigate it.

 

Though I'm dubious about a raider being a red flag for you thing. I have a pretty solid coil static that clears everything and I am very, very good at separating IC and OOC so either it's just been your bad experience or I'm the exception, either way.

[DreamedReality]

As others have said, I don't know that really can be done. And it's certainly not a new phenomenon. It's been happening since before I got into online gaming or online RP of any kind. Yes, even offline pen&paper rpgs can get this. I did a IC romance in a White Wolf campaign that the player took too far OOCly. I didn't realize they were using their character to court -me- basically. It was... awkward. For quite a while since neither of us were willing to quit the circle of mutual friends we were with.

 

There is even a thread here that talks about some minor bleeds that are generally taken as 'not really a problem'. I've seen it described as a sort of method acting in some cases. Several of us who have been gaming for years and years still end up doing the bleed to some extent... We don't RP in a vacuum. There will be some bleed and it goes both directions. The 'trick' is recognizing when you start to do so.

 

I'm not really certain where you want us to be discussing, this seems more of a rant than anything. And believe me I do understand the frustration. I mean... I'm sure we've all got stories like this. From what we ourselves have experienced or watched someone else experience. Some of us probably have blurred the line too far ourselves at one point or another. I know I have. We learn we grow. We move on. Those that don't will eventually not find much RP for themselves after a while. Those of us that have this happen -to- them all develop our own 'hard lines' of where we think it is going too far. How much effort we as individuals put into correcting the 'offending party'. Some are willing to, others much less so.

 

But what this sounds like, is you're basically calling us out to do is start actively policing. There is no system in place to do so. Who makes the rules? Who enforces them? How far is too far? etc etc. An awareness campaign? Who runs it? -How- is it approached to others? Come on too strongly and you'll likely scare off as many potential RPers as attract. Not all are on the RPC as others have pointed out, how do we get the entire community on board? Do we broaden this campaign to other games? etc etc. In the end I think all we can really do is continue to look out for ourselves and perhaps look out a bit for those we choose to RP with. Guild leaders making policies on this sort of behavior. Etc. I mean... there are enough guilds in maaaaaany games that touch on this specific point that I don't know how it's not already -in- a sort of awareness state much like the other guidelines of RP like not godmodding.

 

And then we have to be careful as I've seen these sorts of things backfire entirely in the opposite direction. I've seen people completely wig out over mere whiffs of OOC/IC bleeds and instead of trying to constructively work through the situation they get very accusatory, belligerent, and downright mean to the 'offender.' Dragging others into it and trying to ruin someone's reputation. Which is entirely the wrong direction to go. I'll even admit to being on some of those shame bandwagons in the past. Not getting the full story and taking things far out of proportion. I'm not proud of those instances. I'd take them back in a heartbeat if I could. At the time I thought I was protecting a friend. Turns out I was being a bully.

 

Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is rant away. It sounds like you've got a system in place on determining who you RP with and who you don't. Stick buy it and get the individuals who make the game fun. Which sounds like what you're already doing. As I mentioned before chronic and blatant offenders will usually end up outside of many circles eventually through their own action.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Players taking IC as OOC is just something that happens in RP scenes. You'll even see it manifest on these very forums in the way people talk about their characters as if they are those characters. For example using personal pronouns when talking in OOC forums about their character (I, my, me) instead of "my character" or [character name].

 

One aspect you didn't touch on is something that the vast majority of roleplayers mix IC and OOC with all the time; not creating a separate mindset for your character that doesn't look at the world they live in through the player's very modern view

 

For example, most players in this scene takes being able to read for granted. All of us players were raised in a culture where literacy is extremely prevalent and the vast majority of roleplayers port this mindset straight into their character. In Eorzea being able to read and write is a big deal, but despite that most roleplayer's characters have little or no reaction when it comes to light that others are literate, in fact it's more noted in roleplay when someone CAN'T read or write.

 

Why? Because being able to read is just something everyone they know can do in real life, and because many players don't create a separate worldview for their character there is an entire cultural aspect of the lore that is largely left untouched and in fact the reactions to illiterate characters are often completely backward from what they should be; "What, you can't read!?"

 

Another great example of this mixing IC and OOC is traditional Seeker tribe lore. That is so contrary to a modern mindset that many players cannot discuss it without dissolving into a frothing rage.

 

OP seems to have a good handle on identifying the worst offenders when it comes to players who mix IC and OOC, but the truth is the vast majority do it in more subtle ways without even realizing it. It's just something you have to accept is going to happen in the scene while doing your best to navigate it.

 

Though I'm dubious about a raider being a red flag for you thing. I have a pretty solid coil static that clears everything and I am very, very good at separating IC and OOC so either it's just been your bad experience or I'm the exception, either way.

I liked a lot of stuff in this Though there's always that difference between subtle IC and OOC mixing (like the literacy and tribal bits though the latter is less subtle) and throwing your family keyboard across the room when Becky Lou chooses Bobby Bill to go to the RP event instead of your character. Which I think is what the OP was trying to get at.

 

And even on the rest of the signs as well. Most of them were listed as things that made her cautious until proven otherwise. Which most people are cautious the first few RP interactions anyways, and look for signs based off past experiences. Like with me, I've seen people look out for RPers who are single IRL. I used to be the same, but even players I RPed with who have been married or in committed relationships can turn into bigger creeps then the friendly college virgins over the smallest things.

[Michelleswain]

You can't force someone to learn...

 

You're entirely correct. It's not an issue of enforcing rules or being elitist an such. It's an issue of actual role playing community members turning a blind eye as described by another poster below.

 

I'm a very calm person when dealing with such an issue. In all my experiences I calmly explain to them why I think what they are doing is wrong, how it's affecting me, and what lasting affects it can have. Almost always I get the excuse of; "well I'm new to role play and/or am a light role player". To which I don't have an answer and the best solution is to simply walk away. However; that also has a negative affect. Since the person in question may tell others, OOC that I'm difficult, don't like them, or any other such affect.

 

You may say, but that doesn't matter, plenty of role playing fish in the sea. Unfortunately in the grand scheme of things, role playing communities are small, even smaller when your regular role playing group stages in a particular area (the Quicksand for example). A player taking IC into OOC can have a huge negative impact in small communities like this.

 

I hope this clears up my plea to enthuse role play leaders and prominent role players, particularly in role play hotspots to be pro-active in stopping this. I'm not saying you need to run around slapping people with a ultimate role players rulebook, a simple explanation of when this happens and they identify it helps all of us.

 

In Example B (since it took place in FFXIV and therefor is applicable), while the event happened, another FC member supported the officer's actions (even as they unfolded in FC Chat). Both officers visit Hydraelyn Roleplayers and both officers I believe have read some of the material on here. I even took the other officer aside and quoted parts of our own role playing handbook regarding gil in in-character events. They argued with me otherwise stating the convention on the handling of IC into OOC is normal and common but further supported the actions of the senior guild officer with the excuse that "They are very helpful to everyone and has done a lot for everyone".

 

In other words their message to me was "This person using IC as OOC and taking it into OOC is alright because this person is not only very experienced with the game, but has a lot of resources and helps various people". Which I think is wrong and not conducive to a healthy role play community.

 

-They tend to have multiple maxed out characters. Have maxed out most if not all professions (gathering-crafting), are top tier, and are mostly into the raiding scene. It may take a bit of effort to even get them to role-play if at all.

 

I'm just going to pull this part up for citation. It just seems like a really weird thing to make assumptions over especially when there are people on the larger servers from a variety of different timezones. Not to mention, RPers actually playing the game to take a break from writing? Colour me surprised.

 

Also that wording on the last line, just makes it sound as though you've tried to get people who aren't interested in RPing to try to do it.

 

Thank you for bringing this up. I clarified a little bit more how this is not always the case, but I use it when combined with other checks and balances I take. However allow me to elaborate on this issue.

 

-All- the problems I have had, have almost always been with a player that is really into the game and not necessarily the lore or persona of your character. In other words; their accomplishments in game trumps any small or big accomplishment your character may have performed through background, persona build up, characterization, or in-game accomplishment/IC hybrids. Because you don't have all of the achievements, unlocks, time-in-service, Tier grade equipment, max rank characters, etcetera, your character as a "character" is insignificant to them. That's not to say such actions can't be used In Character (and I welcome them because I sometimes use game achievements in my RP as well) but they should be framed within the scope of the event and not used as a god-modding, OOC tool.

 

Example A: Jim went out and got the Tier 12 Sword of Kill Everything. A very difficult thing to get in the game. Jane is only Tier 10. When we role play together the prudent thing to say is "Yes Jane, obtaining this sword was difficult and took a lot of blood sweat and tears", not "Sorry Jane, you're Tier 10, doubt you'll ever have this sword".

 

Example B: Jane is the highest Tier in the game, knows all the dungeons, pretty much knows everything about the game. Jim is an upstart character both IC and OOC. But IC Jim has a bit of knowledge of a particular empire or organization and as such specializes in them. When Jane confronts Jim, Jane becomes offended OOC that Jim has more knowledge about a particular race/kingdom/organization than Jane had (perhaps Jim focused on a particular topic). Jane then refuses to help Jim with a quest or game-feature because she felt offended by Jim.

 

I can come up with various other examples but it would teeter into Meta-gaming territory which is a monster all on it's own.

 

Now then, to conclude; I would never make a hasty generalization about a player without having a few sessions with them or asking politely OOC about their stance on the topic. Just because they're a high tier player and have the whole game mastered is not necessarily a red flag without them tripping other warning signs.

[Michelleswain]

Players taking IC as OOC is just something that happens in RP scenes.

 

My jaw dropped at how awesome your response was. Several of your points are topics that I've quit MMOs over.

 

I can't say thank you enough.

 

However, some of the points you raised I think deserve its own topic. One of the issues I've had when raising them in the past among friends or in-game OOC discussions, is that like you said it almost always causes rage.

 

I fault game designers for some of the points you raised. Do to lack of proper funding, resources, or because they don't want to offend, they do not provide proper background framework for either the various species/races, the various factional differences, or political dispositions. Almost all developers assume nationalism is the norm regardless of the period of the setting.

 

 

I liked a lot of stuff in this

 

I concur with both posts completely.

 

The issue here with all the examples was letting down my guard because I made the assumption that "Hey this person I role played with is not so bad, surely their guild must be the same", or I simply stopped following my rules just to get out there more.

 

I admit, I'm a very social person. I will walk up to you randomly and strike up a role play. Rarely do you see me in the Quicksand alone.

[Shayrei]

Communication, communication, communication. 

 

 

 

That'really all you can do to combat the IC and OOC bleed. 

 

 

 

I can't really speak for the member that wanted you to pay gil for the RP, that just seems in poor taste and one that may not 'get the point'.

 

 

 

But as to the bleed,  as it's been said before me, people have an emotional connection with the characters they create. While most of us try to keep a healthy level of separation there, immersion draws people in sometimes. It can gasp the good minds of even the most veteran of roleplayers.

 

 

 

It can be hard role-playing an obnoxiously opionionated character,  or a charactionst tends to write people off or "empty their give a fuck pockets" (I love that,  I'm stealing it!  ) with little rational to most others reasons for doing so. People can easily grow tired of dealing with the constant rejection IC and choose to pull their characters away from that character's pissy-ness. That is okay! Perfectly rational response,  we do it all the time IRL. However if you had any sort of relationship outside of the characters (you are guildmates/ friends/ have other character involvement with each other) and that starts to falter then we have a bleed and need some bandaids stat! 

 

 

 

Everyone has been there a time or two, your character is knees deep in some emotional saga, perhaps your toon is finding themselves on the short end of the stick, no one seems to like them, their wife left them took the dog, took the house, and little ole Granny Toon just bit the big one. That sucks. As a puppeteer you're going to get some heartstring tugs, it happens. I bow to you if it doesn't.

 

 

 

So what can we do?

 

 

 

As someone that plays those 'fly off the handle/ emotional wreck' characters, I often times try to out of my way to crank up the friendliness OOC. I have a paranoia that people will take what my character's actions OOC, experience has taught me this will happen so lay on those friendly  OOC ties.

 

"Man... Andy is a bitch sometime!  YOURCHARACTER handled her better than most! Kudos! Can't wait to see what happens when the meet up next time!"))

 

 

"Emotionally draining RP FTL! Let's go blow stuff up in Hauke Manor!"))

 

 

What about the person feeling put off? 

 

 

First, try to remember character != player. 

 

Second, stick it out! This interaction could really lead to some heavy character development for both characters! 

 

 

Ask questions! Talk! 

 

 

"Heh well, my character is a bit put off. Not sure she'll be running to have tea with Andy again any time soon! "))

 

 

"Ah! I hope she does, Andy will warm up she just needs a bit of poking! hah, but if YOURCHARACTER isn't the type to stay around and poke, it's understandable." ))

 

 

Not every character is going to mesh, despite how amazing the player is behind the character. Though I encourage people to give everyone a few chances before writing people off ICly or OOC!

 

In the end, be true to your character and don't be afraid to get clarification!  Most of us are adults, act like it and communicate with each other! 

 

 

Note: I've been working on this post on a cell phone since 7am... I know it'll be very "late to the party" as I haven't been able to read or catch up on the thread! Stupid job! GAH!

[Maril]

As an FC leader, I must admit it gets harder and harder to teach people the basics of roleplay, and uphold a level of quality in the FC that you can be completely happy with. 

I don't exactly know how to put the right words on to what I am experiencing, but it's almost as if "Newer" roleplayers increasingly refuses to accept the rules for what they are - but rather they debate them, question them, and ignore them at will if they do not agree with them. I was a TERRIBLE roleplayer when I started out some 5-6 years ago, and I was literally told "This is not how you do that. THIS is how you do it!" over and over on so many areas through my learning experience (I joined a guild where I had a mentor) and I -never- questioned the stuff they were telling me. I fully recognized it was not alright for me to question why, because -I- was the new player and -they- had the experience, so what they told me had to be the right stuff. I have failed people from our trial because they refused to accept what we were teaching them, something that happens on a semi-regular basis.

 

If I had to point out a "group" where I see this from, it is from roleplayers who are new to MMORPG-RP, but have anywhere from 5-15 years of experience with other ways of roleplaying, or written media. This is why I always flinch a bit when someone says they've done pen and paper for 15 years - I suddenly doubt if they are willing to acknowledge that things are different here. And whilst stuff like IC/OOC is a thing across all of the variants of RP ever, there are some things from other variants that aren't used here. And then it's that whole thing with (and I know not everyone is like this) when people say they're been Rping (as a general term, not specific to mmorpgs) for 15 years and then I say "Oh, I've done it for 5-6 years" then the reaction I tend to get is more of a "Oh she's a wee little runt!" rather than "This person is telling me not to do (thing), I should listen". So more and more I tend to assume that people are new to RP regardless of if the have done pnp for x amount of years, if they just started out in mmorpg-rp. 

 

An argument I see a lot when people want to justify anything from severely breaking the lore, to breaking these common rules of RP, and so on is that "They just do what is fun".

And as much as I want to admire peoples desire to have fun, I just. Egh. I need a gif to illustrate how I feel about that but I can't find one. 

I guess I just take things more seriously? Not to mean that I don't have fun, I have fun everyday, but I follow the rules like I always have. The rules are why we all tend to get along, why back in older games I didn't have to question if I wanted to RP with the person next to me because they seemed a wee bit too far into the light end. And it's not because I don't like light-rpers, but when they ignore the lore it becomes more near impossible, because I -do- follow the lore and if my character acknowledges their stuff then I would not follow the lore. Ack! And when they take ooc as IC? I just want to run. I do not mean to double-cross players, but it is something my character sort of maybe does now and then. Because she is not a nice girl. 

These days I can't even be in the quicksand without encountering something I have to assume didn't happen, like people teleporting into dungeons mid-rp. What the actual ;_; 

 

 

Anyhow, rambling aside. I do feel inspired enough to see if I can compile a little something for my FC on the subject, a forum post or so. Just to increase the awareness.

[Michelleswain]

 

There is even a thread here that talks about some minor bleeds that are generally taken as 'not really a problem'.

 

Ultimately I guess what I'm saying is rant away. It sounds like you've got a system in place on determining who you RP with and who you don't. Stick buy it and get the individuals who make the game fun. Which sounds like what you're already doing. As I mentioned before chronic and blatant offenders will usually end up outside of many circles eventually through their own action.

Method acting and a bit of meta is ok in my opinion, so long as it is not disruptive (such as causing one to leave a guild or not getting in-game actual help).

 

An example of this is my player walking away and not talking to you IC for a while. Perhaps you offended her or something. Even though she is mad at you IC, if you suddenly asked for my help in a duty, the OOC me would help you.

 

I don't feel it's a rant per se, but I wanted to raise awareness, bring the issue to light. But guess what? So many positive responses on here and so many people telling me "Yes this is a common problem and this has been my experience", that you're right.

 

Honestly I did not know so many people shared my opinion on this matter and have had the exact same experiences I have had! By the way, even the tabletop examples myself and my husband have experienced.

 

That being said, this is a discussion forum regarding the ebb and flow of role playing. I feel a lot better that there are others out there that have experienced this issue but having the discussion raises awareness in hopes that new role-players who I direct to the site can see such threads and reflect on them.

 

And regarding all of my examples (and other occurrences) I simply ended any relationship, left the guild immediately, as well as ended any outstanding RP threads. Only people involved in the RP thread that were affected are informed if need be. I understand where you're coming from regarding the Witch-hunt flipping around. I end any such gossip immediately.

[ZindelloTarantella]

I'll use a recent little thing that happened since I am a person that will admit I have a hard time separating the two--within a certain reason.

 

Basically, Tarot screwed up royally. He therefore becamme defensive. I therefore became defensive. My personality, whenever things don't go the way I planned or when I look like an ass, leads me to steam over things for a while, essentially thinking of a million different ways I can respond to largely hypothetical scenarios.

 

For instance, I almost found myself dreading the inevitable scolding Tarot would receive. Not because it was the group demoting me or trashing Tarot or anything; it was because Tarot (and thus myself) had guessed wrong about something in an RP related to the group and it, ICly, cost the group in terms of endangering his teammates.

 

What was more is that, since Tarot is very dear to me, is very much a character (as someone said earlier) that I have invested a great deal of time and care into, his emotions become mine. I knew the player was a great person but the character was smug and full of themselves (at least from Tarot's perspective) so he knew that apologizing--at least he guessed apologizing--would be met with a demeaning and dismissive response from the person he screwed up with.

 

This compounded my own emotions since that type of response pissed me off personally--you begin to see where this is headed? I actually had to pull myself away from the computer and take a day to relax and deal with it. Some people, like myself, sadly have that sort of thing. Thankfully, I've learned from previous flare ups to pull out before I have my character say or do something stupid that is largely OUT of character for them simply as a response to the feelings I have.

 

This is still something I am working on and I doubt I'll ever largely be free of. I say all this to just give a reminder that some of us are aware of this problem we have and that, maybe, a 'safe' word (he) could be used to indicate when you are feeling a bit too testy or upset and need a moment. Something to let your fellows players know 'Hey, I'm getting that feeling in my gut, I need to just leave.'

 

Tarot isn't the type to storm off an pout, which means that I need to formulate an escape for him--but if this 'safety' word exists than maybe it will be easier for players to pull out and their fellow RPers can simply gloss over the character's departure. Instead of:

 

"Oh yeah, we tried to talk to him/her but they just left in a huff"

 

It can be that the OOC notification is given and the player just leaves to cool off then later on the characters can say,

 

"Hey, you okay? You kinda got quiet and then X before you left'

 

Something along those lines so that if you need to back out quickly for the blurring of lines, you don't feel like your character will further be stigmatized, y'know?

 

Hope that was clear! :lol:

[Delilah Scythewood]

Communication, communication, communication. 

 

 

 

That'really all you can do to combat the IC and OOC bleed.

 

 All of my yes. Just...here, take all of it. *shoves at and piles on the 'like's*

 

I just recently ended an RP partnership where communication was HUGELY lacking at the end. And it's something that can stem even outside the boundaries of IC and OOC melding. If one person can't/won't/is unable to communicate...it can cause things to fall apart. Majorly.

 

I have seen more RP and had more of my own RP end because of a lack of communication. It takes barely five seconds to drop someone a line or express a concern. "Hey, you ok? That RP was pretty exhausting and you seem a bit out of it" or "You seemed to get pretty angry over our characters' fight earlier. Something up?" These are mild examples, but sometimes all a person needs is a little nudge to open the doorway.

 

More often then not I have seen interactions go sour because one person was saying or doing something wrong and didn't realize it made the other person uncomfortable, IC or OOC. While some would rather avoid the possible confrontation those things would bring, most tend to be more then understanding. Those that aren't? Safe to say a little extra evaluation never hurts in case they may have something lurking under the skin. Some people who it seems are IC and OOC blending may not even know they're doing it, or that they're coming across that way. And then there are those that go 'IC and OOC blending? Derp, what's that?'...and that's when you get on your SCH cap and give them the 411.

[Kage]

As a new roleplayer both in general and MMORPG, I recently found that I had lots of bleedthrough between IC and OOC emotions. It wasn't the fact that I couldn't separate them but I just -felt- them that sometimes I was in general moods that well affected myself, those I RP with, and those who RP with them. I find this a separate issue than the ones you've described.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure why at all the player you RP'd with demanded gil. It almost seems like a set up to take gil from you @_@; I have almost always, when gil is involved in RP between my friends, never used actual gil. Unless I want to tip Momodi's barmaid help. It seems more of people taking advantage than something RPers, new or old, would do.

[Delilah Scythewood]

I'll use a recent little thing that happened since I am a person that will admit I have a hard time separating the two--within a certain reason.

 

Basically, Tarot screwed up royally. He therefore becamme defensive. I therefore became defensive. My personality, whenever things don't go the way I planned or when I look like an ass, leads me to steam over things for a while, essentially thinking of a million different ways I can respond to largely hypothetical scenarios.

 

For instance, I almost found myself dreading the inevitable scolding Tarot would receive. Not because it was the group demoting me or trashing Tarot or anything; it was because Tarot (and thus myself) had guessed wrong about something in an RP related to the group and it, ICly, cost the group in terms of endangering his teammates.

 

What was more is that, since Tarot is very dear to me, is very much a character (as someone said earlier) that I have invested a great deal of time and care into, his emotions become mine. I knew the player was a great person but the character was smug and full of themselves (at least from Tarot's perspective) so he knew that apologizing--at least he guessed apologizing--would be met with a demeaning and dismissive response from the person he screwed up with.

 

This compounded my own emotions since that type of response pissed me off personally--you begin to see where this is headed? I actually had to pull myself away from the computer and take a day to relax and deal with it. Some people, like myself, sadly have that sort of thing. Thankfully, I've learned from previous flare ups to pull out before I have my character say or do something stupid that is largely OUT of character for them simply as a response to the feelings I have.

 

This is still something I am working on and I doubt I'll ever largely be free of. I say all this to just give a reminder that some of us are aware of this problem we have and that, maybe, a 'safe' word (he) could be used to indicate when you are feeling a bit too testy or upset and need a moment. Something to let your fellows players know 'Hey, I'm getting that feeling in my gut, I need to just leave.'

 

Tarot isn't the type to storm off an pout, which means that I need to formulate an escape for him--but if this 'safety' word exists than maybe it will be easier for players to pull out and their fellow RPers can simply gloss over the character's departure. Instead of:

 

"Oh yeah, we tried to talk to him/her but they just left in a huff"

 

It can be that the OOC notification is given and the player just leaves to cool off then later on the characters can say,

 

"Hey, you okay? You kinda got quiet and then X before you left'

 

Something along those lines so that if you need to back out quickly for the blurring of lines, you don't feel like your character will further be stigmatized, y'know?

 

Hope that was clear! :lol:

All of this is also good too I've put a very tight rope on my own emotions when it comes to RP. I generally don't even talk to people on an in depth level anymore since some tend to question why it is I'm so separate with little to no immersion. Though there are times where I'm being affected by something outside of game (a bad phone call, argument with a friend, etc.) where I need to pull out of an RP STAT. Sometimes with little to no warning for the RP.

 

I've had people accuse me of blending when these have happened at stressful moments in an RP and that I'm 'running away'. This is where the aforementioned communication comes in to keep things clear.

[OttoVann]

Hm, maybe I've been lucky but I haven't had trouble with IC/OOC bleed too much in regards to others. A lot of my IC 'girls' are friends with me on skype and some are even so bold to refer to me by my real name. This is fine, all of them understand we are friends and there is some solid as fuck trust there. They know I'm married, they know my wife encourages me to do whatever I want in game - and we have fun. We have IC relations for sure but OOC we're fine.

 

In fact with Kerwin my old IC romance, we know quite a lot about each other behind the screen and we have an extremely firm grip on ic/ooc romance bleed. I dunno I guess Ive been lucky. Even after we had to split IC due to real life and IC schedules schisms we still remain good friends and there is no overt attachment.

 

Then again last night I was getting admonished quite well for bleeding my IC/OOC in a Linkshell for being a bit too crass and/or lewd when talking to people versus only being a skirt chasing horndog IC only. Or perhaps I treat people while they are OOC as though they are IC sometimes. Im an offender in my own small way.

[Michelleswain]

Communication, communication, communication. 

Loved this advice and I could use more of it!

 

I am guilty sometimes of putting the blinders on and not saying to myself "Ok time out, lets take this OOC and ask them in a whisper if everything is ok". Or at least saying "Hey, is everything ok? I really like this dramatic RP, but I think feelings are being hurt" or something to that affect.

 

I'm normally pretty good at that. The one thing that normally does derail me is if my character of a different race/species being treated like any other ordinary 2014 human from the U.S. even though the game takes place in 1200's medieval fantasy land. :frustrated:Typically any OOC debate divulges into some high end philosophical argument on because we're all sentient beings we all should act, feel, behave, have the same instincts and so on, or the immature response of "Well you just hate humans."

 

However the one growing trend where as in the past that would have worked (a few simple OOC checks), I'm noticing that the player is also recalcitrant OOC. Meaning the line between IC and OOC is completely gone. No, they really are mad at you.

 

So I take it to OOC and I try to be sweet and friendly as you described. But they are still upset OOC, and then I get upset that they are upset. At that moment all communication breaks.

 

Here's an example; I'm not into Futas. Not for any moral reasons, but I have viewed the growing trend of Futas as outside the parameters set by most MMO game lores (I consider them like a race of their own?). Rarely does any setting set a plausible background where they can exist without extreme bends in the lore (aside from the cheesy "well it's magic" excuse). A lot of my prejudices against such characters stem from their predominance within the ERP exclusive community whereby ERP is prioritized above all else (to the detriment of lore, background, other forms of RP, non-romance RP etcetera).

 

I almost always fade away when a character confronts me (typically OOC) that they are a Futa. I appreciate that they make it known, however I had one case where the player didn't make it known until well into about a week's worth of role play sessions. They had failed all my other checks, but stupid me was mesmerized with how helpful, how active and reactive(my favorite type of role players), and how available to role play they were. When I confronted them about it OOC their response was "Well that's only if we get really close, otherwise it's not an issue". My brain exploded... I didn't know what to say or think. I then tried to explain why I had some reservations about it and the person exploded saying I was being intolerant. I tried my best to diffuse the encounters and lower my level of interaction with them, only to be met with increasing accusations of "abandoning them and being a jerk to them for no reason". Again a bit more searching revealed the person had grown attached to my character and I.

 

This all ended in having to blacklist the person and de-friending.

 

What was the proper course of action in this situation?

Was I to accept what ever race, species, pseudo-lore, third party creation they came up with?

This is a hard case of IC bleeding into OOC severely (I'd argue there was no bleeding but a hemorrhage).

[Kage]

Personally, anyone who -defines- their character and her actions as "futa' gives me a redflag because there's usually no reason for me (or my character) to know that unless we're headed down that road (and I have since learned I don't want to go down such roads). Having it in your character info usually turns me away as a player.

 

Edit: I do ignore public lewd bordering onto venn diagram of ERP. My character, myself, I'm not interested in people who RP as people who just want to go out into public spaces to grope and make out with each other. That's just my personal tastes.

 

Though I must ask you, how is "futa" lore-breaking? Unless we both have a different interpretation of the word. Hermaphrodites and intersexual people exist so I am... confused?

 

Edit: Granted you already have reasons to not interact, but I understand why they are confused as to why being a "futa" matters so much. It shouldn't matter, in my opinion. To me it's just as similar to saying transgender people do not exist. Hermaphrodites do not exist. Intersexed people do not exist.

[Aldotsk]

I usually walk away from any ERP attempts because I find them to be disturbing and disgusting majority of the time. 

 

Not only that the OOC and IC communication always has to work out, and if someone behaves like they are upset at you OOCly, they are being dramatic queens and should really learn that in DnD, there are more drama controversials than MMORPG and yet they still deal with it and grow up. (Why? Because chances are that your character is dead through DnD and there is nothing you can do to revive the character unless DM says so)

 

Demanding for actual Gil is messed up, and if it was me, I'd leave instantly and never bother to deal with any of that FC.