So this is a thing now?

[Berrod Armstrong]

Again, I've said before that I have no problem with someone selling a FC with house. The buyer is getting something directly from the seller in that case: An actual item is transferring hands, and it's no different than buying a sword or whatever.

 

What I'm talking about here is the practice of RPC members asking for other RPC members to pay for the privilege of being there when they relinquish the plot. The plot isn't being transferred from the seller to the buyer - the buyer still has to pay SE the full price for it. I think I've been pretty clear about that, so it's curious that you're bringing up the reddit community as a counterexample.

 

Though perhaps it's not so curious. Perhaps Reddit is the appropriate model for the RPC community.

I understand where you're coming from with this entire thing, I really do.

 

What it really comes down to is this:

 

What you have a problem with/don't have a problem with/find questionable/don't see as acceptable or moral practice does not actually mean that something is good, bad, right or wrong. It's the way things work. Player A has a commodity, player B wants said commodity, player A names a price, player B pays the price.

 

The commodity in this case is the AVAILABILITY of the plot -- we're not even getting into the plot cost itself, because that has nothing to do with the transaction. The AVAILABILITY of a plot is a rare and valuable thing, and in that light some players have decided to assign it a monetary value. Other players have decided that this monetary value is worth it, and conduct business.

 

There's nothing iffy about that at all, long has it been the way things work. The transaction is completely voluntary on both ends and therefore not subject to any scrutiny on behalf of judging eyes.  

 

Furthermore, the transaction is between the seller and the buyer on a case by case basis and has absolutely nothing to do with us as a community, even if every person on this site did it. To put it in layman's terms, "It's nobody's business and who is anyone to judge?"

 

If anyone decides to charge gil for something that does not violate the TOU, it is up to everyone else to decide whether it's worth paying for or not, and decide whether THEY want to pay for it. As an aside, if I have to pay someone for RP, I'd likely go somewhere else where the RP is free (just as someone would not buy the availability of a housing plot if others were available for free [that is, free availability, not free plot costs]!). 

 

Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.

[Kellach Woods]

Oh, FFXIV housing market. You were poorly designed from the get-go, and it's only made people miserable.

[Kage]

I don't know what I'd do with a full house, really.

Don't get a medium with the help of friends and think you can actually do a good job decorating. Seriously, need a house decorator.

 

If you need gil help lemme know.

[Warren Castille]

Oh, FFXIV housing market. You were poorly designed from the get-go, and it's only made people miserable.

 

What a train wreck it's been, though! I can't look away.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Again, I've said before that I have no problem with someone selling a FC with house. The buyer is getting something directly from the seller in that case: An actual item is transferring hands, and it's no different than buying a sword or whatever.

 

What I'm talking about here is the practice of RPC members asking for other RPC members to pay for the privilege of being there when they relinquish the plot. The plot isn't being transferred from the seller to the buyer - the buyer still has to pay SE the full price for it. I think I've been pretty clear about that, so it's curious that you're bringing up the reddit community as a counterexample.

 

Though perhaps it's not so curious. Perhaps Reddit is the appropriate model for the RPC community.

Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.

*gives all of her likes!*

[Kage]

Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.

I don't know if I'm just a poor communicator but this is what I think. Except I have decided to accept transactions but reject small plots for 7.5mil and the like. But that's my opinion that I won't tell a buyer or seller.

[Warren Castille]

I'm just going to remark here that I agree with C'kayah's intent: Anyone paying millions of gil to have the opportunity to then spend millions of gil is dumb and should feel dumb. I just don't care enough about what dumb people do with their money to infer that it's wrong.

 

Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.

[Melkire]

Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.

 

If your goods are marked up by a ridiculous margin over the real market value (I'm loooing at you, glamour prisms) and I can still make a profit undercutting by 30% or more, you can be damned well sure that I'm gonna. Competition driving prices down is a good thing. Likewise for flipping goods that are selling below their RMV.

 

If it's real scumbag practices you're after, let's talk about how market manipulation can result in one greedy rich bigger buying up a commodity to clean out the marketboard only to mark them up upon relisting them (see: tier IV materia). Pure profit at the expense of consumers.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.

 

If your goods are marked up by a ridiculous margin over the real market value (I'm loooing at you, glamour prisms) and I can still make a profit undercutting by 30% or more, you can be damned well sure that I'm gonna. Competition driving prices down is a good thing. Likewise for flipping goods that are selling below their RMV.

 

If it's real scumbag practices you're after, let's talk about how market manipulation can result in one greedy rich bigger buying up a commodity to clean out the marketboard only to mark them up upon relisting them (see: tier IV materia). Pure profit at the expense of consumers.

I've managed to stop some of those greedy bastards in the past. Sometimes however I can only salvage a few items before the rest are snatched up and sold at sometimes more then 300% ;<

[Kage]

Yep, I've seen marketboard players buy the undercut items and re-list them for -slight- undercut prices to still return profits.

[Warren Castille]

I was meaning to be tongue-in-cheek about that, but I've got a screenshot of blue fox hides plummeting 50% of their market price in TWELVE HOURS because the natural flow of prices should be this:

 

100k

100k

100k

99k

75k

70k

50k

49k

49,998

 

I'm 99% sure that's entirely the fault of quick ventures returning them and a mass of idiots getting them at once (because hey, that's 50k I didn't work for, what do I care if these only come from once-per-day maps at a low rate?) and listing them for "pure profit."

 

I'm all for competitive margins. I'm staunchly against crashing something through the basement just because. I would also think we're all in agreement that market fixing is messed up, too. I've only done it once before, an even then I'm not sure it counts: Someone delisted two stacks of ore and dropped them again from 100~gil each to 40 gil each. I snatched them up quick before mouthbreathers thought it was a "trend."

 

We hate what we are, after all.

[Edvyn]

money is money do you what you gotta do to get that $$$

[Flickering Ember]

Back in beta they talked about letting people sell their property. I honestly wonder what made them change their mind on that.

 

In game economics. If players buy and sell things to NPCs, that is money leaving the game, aka a money sink. The more money sinks in the game, the less horrifying currency inflation becomes. If I had to guess, selling between players is probably disallowed due to the potential horrific levels of inflation. This thread is kinda proving that would happen anyway. Since there are very few land spaces and extremely high demand, players would be selling even small houses for outrageous prices, far more than the current 5 million standard.

 

It's probably actually cheaper in the long run to not allow player to play house selling.

 

 

 

-------------------------------

 

Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.

 

Ckayah is saying that he agrees that there is nothing wrong with people following the path of economics but is expressing regret in that he wishes the community would be charitable. I think we can all agree that charity and generosity is a good thing we might like to see more of. But we also understand that it is not always practical and that choosing not to be charitable doesn't make you a bad person.

 

 

Charity is never required. I certainly don't think Ckayah is saying that. There are, however, some hidden benefits to being charitable that I don't think have been brought up or considered yet in this thread. The honest truth is that every time you relinquish your property to a non-RPer, you are creating less spaces for other RPers. It is true that we are not an official RP server and we co-exist with non-RPers who may also be our friends. But I think it is worth considering that we are a niche that is dependent on others in our community to survive. The more diluted we become, the less cohesive our community becomes.

 

To give a plot up is a charitable act, one that has strong parallels with how charity works in real life. We aren't obligated to donate to wikipedia, or red cross, or any other organization. We aren't required to recycle or use resuable bags. We aren't required to adopt children as opposed to passing down our own genetics whenever we start a family. Not doing these things doesn't make you a bad person. However, somewhere somebody is donated to wikipedia to help keep it running, someone is seriously choosing to recycle and cut down on the world's waste, someone is opting to adopt a child that needs a home instead of contributing to a now over-populated world. These organizations and people depend on others willing to donate for their survival.

 

Every time someone holds a server event, they are contributing the community of this server, every time someone decides to RP with a stranger instead of going to their guilds or friends they are contributing to the community, and yes, every time someone relinquishes a plot for someone else, they are also contributing to that community.

 

We're all here to have fun. You need to do what is best for you. But I think we should also stop to appreciate the people who make sacrifices for the betterment of others. No one requires you to be charitable but when you do, you are helping Balmung become a better place.

[Melkire]

Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.

 

Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O

 

Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?

[Warren Castille]

Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.

 

Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O

 

Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?

 

YES. IDIOT.

[Iex]

To be fair, you can never apply real world economics to an MMO market board.

 

Real world Economics rely on a couple key factors that do not exist in a digital game. The biggest of which is finite resources. Some resources are rarer drops in the game, but in reality are also infinite. The only finite matter in an MMO market is time. There are only so many hours in the day; so the real value of an item is how much people believe the time to gather it was worth in gil. Thus a 'market value' of an item will always crash and spike depending on who is selling and how lazy folks are. (aka how much they are willing to spend for another person's time) If one person values their time higher than another person, naturally they will be undercut and because there is only a max of 100 (if you are paying for extra retainers) or 40 for the more average player selling slots, you must make a decision of what to sell at else you have 'dead' slots. Clinging to an artificial thought of what 'something should be worth' will only result in you not selling. You have to ride the market of time value as it crashes and as it rises.

 

When patches are released, things sell far higher because more people are willing to be 'lazy' to finish new items, content. The prime example of this is the Belah'dian Silver, which on patch day was selling for 200-400k depending on quality, and now it sells for 20k. Another example was people selling Dungeon runs for Rogues/Ninjas folks were buying the time of other people the market was good at first with the more impatient people willing to pay 50-70k a pop, but it quickly crashed as the more patient people refused to pay absurd prices.

 

However, looping back to the housing topic, the housing issue is sort of an example of real world economics. The resource being traded is finite and the demand is high. The problem comes from, the price is not in control of the seller outside of the reservation fee. The price resets to full price 5-80 million regardless as to what would be considered a market price. The seller gets zero gil from that, which is where the real world similarities end. Money gain in this game is based off infinite resources, but the product being purchased is a money sink, meaning it goes down the drain. If someone could 'transfer' ownership of a house we could have an actual... housing market... but at the same time it would likely be taken over by Real-estate moguls who would ruin it anyways.

 

As for attempts to fix 'undercutting' markets, it actually only works partway. If someone clicks the history tab they will see a bunch of something selling at a cheaper price and maybe assume that is the 'correct' price. Also... you just bought their time, so they will sell it again at that price because it sold.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[C'kayah Polaali]

My apologies for causing rancor. Please go back to your regular discussions.

[Melkire]

Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O

 

Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?

 

YES. IDIOT.

 

WELL EXCUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME, PRINCESS!

 

I think she's using the term "argument" in this manner, and I agree with her use of it.

 

I might have gotten the wrong impression from her post. It sounded like, "okay so you all agree with each other so why is this thread even still going LET'S CLOSE IT BECAUSE DISCUSSIONS ARE BAD. DEBATES ONLY, NO COMRADERY, FINAL DESTINATION."

[Berrod Armstrong]

Back in beta they talked about letting people sell their property. I honestly wonder what made them change their mind on that.

 

In game economics. If players buy and sell things to NPCs, that is money leaving the game, aka a money sink. The more money sinks in the game, the less horrifying currency inflation becomes. If I had to guess, selling between players is probably disallowed due to the potential horrific levels of inflation. This thread is kinda proving that would happen anyway. Since there are very few land spaces and extremely high demand, players would be selling even small houses for outrageous prices, far more than the current 5 million standard.

 

It's probably actually cheaper in the long run to not allow player to play house selling.

 

 

 

-------------------------------

 

Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.

 

Ckayah is saying that he agrees that there is nothing wrong with people following the path of economics but is expressing regret in that he wishes the community would be charitable. I think we can all agree that charity and generosity is a good thing we might like to see more of. But we also understand that it is not always practical and that choosing not to be charitable doesn't make you a bad person.

 

 

Charity is never required. I certainly don't think Ckayah is saying that. There are, however, some hidden benefits to being charitable that I don't think have been brought up or considered yet in this thread. The honest truth is that every time you relinquish your property to a non-RPer, you are creating less spaces for other RPers. It is true that we are not an official RP server and we co-exist with non-RPers who may also be our friends. But I think it is worth considering that we are a niche that is dependent on others in our community to survive. The more diluted we become, the less cohesive our community becomes.

 

To give a plot up is a charitable act, one that has strong parallels with how charity works in real life. We aren't obligated to donate to wikipedia, or red cross, or any other organization. We aren't required to recycle or use resuable bags. We aren't required to adopt children as opposed to passing down our own genetics whenever we start a family. Not doing these things doesn't make you a bad person. However, somewhere somebody is donated to wikipedia to help keep it running, someone is seriously choosing to recycle and cut down on the world's waste, someone is opting to adopt a child that needs a home instead of contributing to a now over-populated world. These organizations and people depend on others willing to donate for their survival.

 

Every time someone holds a server event, they are contributing the community of this server, every time someone decides to RP with a stranger instead of going to their guilds or friends they are contributing to the community, and yes, every time someone relinquishes a plot for someone else, they are also contributing to that community.

 

We're all here to have fun. You need to do what is best for you. But I think we should also stop to appreciate the people who make sacrifices for the betterment of others. No one requires you to be charitable but when you do, you are helping Balmung become a better place.

Be that as it may, what people do with their housing plots, and what other people do with their money is none of our business. 

 

Whatever charity people decide to offer and to who is none of our business. 

 

Whoever they relinquish or sell to is none of our business.

 

The choices of people in the community to contribute, and by what means they choose to contribute is none of our business. 

 

It is not our place to set any standard, precedent or expectation as to what we think people should do with their time and gil within the bounds of the ToU.

 

It is not our place to ascribe such actions and transactions, as undertaken by individuals, to the RPC community -- whether the individuals are part of the RPC community or not.

 

But we CAN say what we think about it!

[Gegenji]

But we CAN say what we think about it!

 

What I think about it:

 

 

(Insert obligatory "It stinks!")

[Devereau]

I think if you want to see some awful shitty economics, look at the buyer list for always needed seal items, like coke or potash. Now that's some shit, unless you have a lot of money to do the same thing. 

 

Though, on the housing thing, I think the time explanation delved more into my point. Time is a HUGE factor in this equation due to the implementation on SE's part.

[Flickering Ember]

 

I might have gotten the wrong impression from her post. It sounded like, "okay so you all agree with each other so why is this thread even still going LET'S CLOSE IT BECAUSE DISCUSSIONS ARE BAD. DEBATES ONLY, NO COMRADERY, FINAL DESTINATION."

 

Well, everything has to come to an end eventually. Though I definitely think there is merit in discussing different view points. I enjoy reading them as well. I used the word 'argue' because it is a little more intense than 'discussion' and some of the word choices from page 5 were sounding heated in comparison to the earlier posts of the thread. From my point of view, it looks like everyone is pretty much in agreement but one could get an impression that folks here disagree due to their differences in word choice and tone.

 

That said, my original post was brief because I don't think there is much to discuss here anyway. So, actually, I suppose you are half right. This:

 

Is it okay to sell the right to purchase a plot of land? Yes, supply and demand. Basic economics.

 

Should everyone be required to donate a plot to another RPer? No, but if you do, that's pretty cool of you.

 

...could basically sum up the entire thread, including Ckayah's posts. The difference is, Ckayah is concerned about communal identity to which I have a proposal for. Which leads me to...

 

Be that as it may, what people do with their housing plots, and what other people do with their money is none of our business. 

 

Whatever charity people decide to offer and to who is none of our business. 

 

Whoever they relinquish or sell to is none of our business.

 

The choices of people in the community to contribute, and by what means they choose to contribute is none of our business. 

 

It is not our place to set any standard, precedent or expectation as to what we think people should do with their time and gil within the bounds of the ToU.

 

It is not our place to ascribe such actions and transactions, as undertaken by individuals, to the RPC community -- whether the individuals are part of the RPC community or not.

 

But we CAN say what we think about it!

 

Definitely agree and I can see why folks might be flustered about this thread, as it can be viewed as calling people out for not being charitable. I think if we focus on what nice things people are doing and not what they aren't doing then we can get some better results on improving the community.

 

Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.  (We could make a shout out/thank you/recognition thread! )

[Warren Castille]

Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.  (We could make a shout out/thank you/recognition thread! )

 

This isn't a bad idea.

[Gegenji]

Giving a shout out to Tea? or other folks who help out the community is one of such ways.  (We could make a shout out/thank you/recognition thread! )

 

One exists!

It's mostly for thanking people for things they've done in character, but it is definitely a thank you/recognition thread.

 

Edit: Waaarren! *shakefist* :lol:

[111]

This is a such a boring thing to get grumpy about I can't even think of a snarky comment.