Discussion of "Polyamory: A Roleplaying Guide"

[C'kayah Polaali]

is it wrong to find an ethical problem in genuine sexualities/sexual practices being exploited by horny nerds looking for cheap imaginary sex?

 

Sort of? It's sleazy, for sure, and it's obviously not okay if they're trying to force/pressure/trick people into doing sexual things with them.

 

Late comment, but hey, it's Christmas!

 

I think the main point here in what Faye is saying - not to put words in your mouth Faye - is it's not okay for people to force/pressure/trick people into doing anything, really. I recognize that it probably happens more around sex than it does around, say, coil, but it's not exclusive to sex and it's equally not okay anywhere.

 

And just for me: I don't particularly have a problem with people exploiting genuine sexualities or practices. Maybe they're in the closet about something and this is their only outlet. Maybe they're just curious. Maybe they just want to get their rocks off. I don't know, and I don't care. So long as it's consensual, in my opinion, they're golden.

 

Merry Christmas, everyone!

[Faye]

is it wrong to find an ethical problem in genuine sexualities/sexual practices being exploited by horny nerds looking for cheap imaginary sex?

 

Sort of? It's sleazy, for sure, and it's obviously not okay if they're trying to force/pressure/trick people into doing sexual things with them.

 

Late comment, but hey, it's Christmas!

 

I think the main point here in what Faye is saying - not to put words in your mouth Faye - is it's not okay for people to force/pressure/trick people into doing anything, really. I recognize that it probably happens more around sex than it does around, say, coil, but it's not exclusive to sex and it's equally not okay anywhere.

 

And just for me: I don't particularly have a problem with people exploiting genuine sexualities or practices. Maybe they're in the closet about something and this is their only outlet. Maybe they're just curious. Maybe they just want to get their rocks off. I don't know, and I don't care. So long as it's consensual, in my opinion, they're golden.

 

Merry Christmas, everyone!

 

Exactly! Sexual activities are obviously one of the more severe and taboo things to apply it to, but trying to force or deceive someone into anything is a no-no. ERP in itself is not bad--forcing it on people is. But not all ERP, however tasteless someone may find it or certain kinds of it, is forced or underhanded.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Okie dokies! Back to a computer so I can post things and some updates to the guide!

 

First off: I read about 85-90 percent of the posts on this thread. Was interesting to see how things went and that so many things got pruned or moderated. I want to make it clear so that there isn't any further misunderstandings that when I posted in the opening thread about having a race with a nontraditional structure (being the miqo'te), I was not outright implying they are polyamorous. We know very little about the Keepers except they have nomadic males that come and go as they please or when it's best suited and Seekers are namely all for polygyny with a lion tribe aspect to them. Personally? I have my own views on miqo'te but I will not discuss them in this thread. That's not what the thread is for. It's to better explain polyamory both in general and in a RP aspect (namely an RP aspect). Overall it was nice to read things though was a little sad that people derailed the thread so terribly.

 

Secondly: Due to the derailing, going to update the opening post with links to the actual guide pages on the thread so people don't have to wander through the pages to find them. Try to keep the conversation about things poly and RP related and for goodness sakes listen to the admins when they tell you to play nicely. As always if you have any questions you're welcome to PM me Already got a few messages thus far so keep it coming!

 

Lastly: I'm going to add things to the guide based off some of what I read as well as some suggestions people brought up during the course of the 8 pages worth of convo lol. If you have anything you'd like to see more of or think should be added, let me know. Format is still staying the same as with the color scheme (because I'm a sucker for messing with font colors when I do this sort of thing).

 

Hope everyone enjoyed their holiday! Onward to the guide!

[Xenedra]

To clean up Lilithium's Polyamory: A Roleplaying Guide, I've split the whole of the discussion into this post and left the original guide with just her posts and a few directly related comments. Feel free to continue the discussion itself here, rather than in the guide. Thanks!

[Delilah Scythewood]

To clean up Lilithium's Polyamory: A Roleplaying Guide, I've split the whole of the discussion into this post and left the original guide with just her posts and a few directly related comments. Feel free to continue the discussion itself here, rather than in the guide. Thanks!

I know I told you this via PM but thank you sooooo much <3

[Erik Mynhier]

Now this might be taken the wrong way, like I'm poking fun, and I'm not. But when it comes to.... and I hate this phrase as it insinuates there is such a thing as "normal"..... "alternate" ideas of relationships, sexuality, and even just life in general, I turn to this hooky song. Its a bit dated, but the message applies.

 

 

"Now the world don't move to the beat of just one drum....." <- Sage advice.

[video=youtube]

 

[Amelia]

I thought I read somewhere that most Miqo'te, both Seekers and Keepers, weren't particularily tribal anymore, and that way was thought to be 'old hat.'

[Delilah Scythewood]

Eh, I think it honestly depends on what a miqo'tes family background is. Just like with any sort of family, some stay traditional even with the changing times.

[allgivenover]

I thought I read somewhere that most Miqo'te, both Seekers and Keepers, weren't particularily tribal anymore, and that way was thought to be 'old hat.'

 

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact there is far more evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

[Aysun]

I thought I read somewhere that most Miqo'te, both Seekers and Keepers, weren't particularily tribal anymore, and that way was thought to be 'old hat.'

 

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

 

It's debated. There's evidence for both sides. I could give you evidence that Miqo'te who live traditionally are the minority just as quickly as you could give me evidence of the contrary. Rather than saying one side is correct or not until SE spells it out for us, it'd be cool if we could acknowledge that both sides have their backing and it is the choice of the RPer to make.

[Gone.]

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact there is far more evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

 

I don't see evidence of this in regards to Moon Keepers whatsoever given that their presence is so culturally scattered throughout the game world.

 

Granted, there's a general lack of information for or against, but based on what we have? I'm inclined to disagree.

[allgivenover]

I thought I read somewhere that most Miqo'te, both Seekers and Keepers, weren't particularily tribal anymore, and that way was thought to be 'old hat.'

 

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

 

It's debated. There's evidence for both sides. I could give you evidence that Miqo'te who live traditionally are the minority just as quickly as you could give me evidence of the contrary. Rather than saying one side is correct or not until SE spells it out for us, it'd be cool if we could acknowledge that both sides have their backing and it is the choice of the RPer to make.

 

If you'll read my post again you'll note I did not call one side or the other incorrect. I only stated that an opinion was passed around as canon that was in fact only an opinion. Additionally I of course agree that it is always the RPers choice to make. I enjoyed RPing with non traditional Miqo'te before I recently stopped RPing Rakka'li, the problem is pretty much all Miqo'te RPers shirk tradition in some majority.

 

People don't want to RP Miqo'te, they want to RP Hyur with cat ears and a tail, and really there is nothing wrong with that. But after a year and a half the non traditional Miqo'te is very much old hat to me, but if that is what makes people happy in RP who am I to call it wrong? 

 

However if we're talking about evidence in the lore then it is indeed weighted towards traditions being very much alive and in practice. We have both Keepers and Seekers frequently portrayed as actively engaging in tribal/clan traditions and only two counts of Miqo'te actively shirking those traditions. Now here is where the arguement will come along that we see plenty of Miqo'te not actively engaging in traditions, and I will answer that not seeing these Miqo'te - all of which carry a tribal name or part of one - actively participate is not the same as them denying that tradition. 

 

But we are talking about Miqo'te lore here, and that lore is so unacceptable to the average roleplayer that YoshiP making a video stating the reality of Miqo'te lore would not be evidence enough to break through the disgust that seeker lore alone generates. 

 

So yes, there is evidence for both sides (even if one is a mountain and the other a cairn of stones), but if we're making evidence based conclusions about Miqo'te - well at least I am! - that conclusion until new information presents itself is that Miqo'te traditions are very much alive. Rping a non traditional Miqo'te isn't wrong though, don't mistake my position as otherwise.

[allgivenover]

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact there is far more evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

 

I don't see evidence of this in regards to Moon Keepers whatsoever given that their presence is so culturally scattered throughout the game world.

 

Granted, there's a general lack of information for or against, but based on what we have? I'm inclined to disagree.

 

[Seriphyn]

That was the opinion of a few individuals that was mistakenly passed around as canon by others. Miqo'te traditions are very much alive, in fact there is far more evidence that those Miqo'te that do stray from tradition are the minority.

 

I don't see evidence of this in regards to Moon Keepers whatsoever given that their presence is so culturally scattered throughout the game world.

 

Other than Revenent's Toll and Gridania, I don't see Moon Keepers anywhere but the Shroud, where they vary between bandits and cityfolk. Those integrated into the city seem to be exclusively female as well, or vast majority, going by the NPC count.

 

People don't want to RP Miqo'te, they want to RP Hyur with cat ears and a tail, and really there is nothing wrong with that. But after a year and a half the non traditional Miqo'te is very much old hat to me, but if that is what makes people happy in RP who am I to call it wrong?

 

That's basically my opinion of "city Miqo'te" as well. I much prefer to RP with Miqo'te who actually acknowledge their racial lore as a result of it.

 

OOC-wise, Seeker lore seems very dodgy to me in terms of its social structure (people actually try to defend it, lol). Rather than embrace it, people play "citycats" as if to try and avoid the negative OOC implications of Miqolore. 

 

A comparative example would be playing a proud encultured Ul'dahn but "not being that much into the pursuit of money". No. Embrace the whole lore! Though I'm probably a centre-leftie IRL, my character unabashedly believes in the Ul'dahn "pursuit of money" thing despite it not being too cool in Western ethics. He sees wealth as a product of hard diligence. I'd much prefer to RP with a Miqo'te who embraces Seeker lore even if it may be iffy IRL than someone who tries to push it aside.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Nako (until recent events) would frequently take time to engage in his cultural 'duties' which is as he saw it. But he also took time to remind himself of what he was. Deep down, despite how he acts around those he spends time with, he is proud of what and who he is.

 

I personally object to the statement 'no one wants to play miqo'te, they just want to play a hyur with cat pieces' I very much play Nako as a Miqo, albeit one who knows that his culture is different from that he has spent 2/3rds of his life in.

[Aysun]

I play a "city-cat" because when I created my character, there was absolutely no sign of tribal miqo'te in game.  We did not even know for sure that they lived in tribes ever, let alone presently. We did not know about the tribal letters significance, nor anything at all about the males other than they "aren't seen but are rumored to live even in the city itself" or something, so said our sole source of racial lore in game at the time. I recall a miqo'te NPC woman speaking about her husband in 1.0. I recall being one of the few miqo'te players to come up with a "traditional" name for my character when I noticed the naming trends for her clan, and a reason for her not using it based on assumptions that turned out to be correct about them being hard to pronounce (those h's).

 

Even so, all that isn't even why I argue that I think the tribal variety are the less common miqo'te. I'm not going to go into it all because this isn't the place for it (and honestly, I don't let it bother me anymore either way - as I said above I acknowledge evidence on both sides and think that it's up to the RPer to choose which they want to play), but I do think it is much more than a "cairn of stones" - otherwise those of us who choose that interpretation would be grasping at straws when defending our view. 

 

I'm sure that some folks RP non traditional miqo'te because they want to RP a hyur with cat ears, or because they're uncomfortable with the tribal rules presented for traditional miqo'te. But I believe the majority of those that play non tribal choose not to based on how they interpret the lore. I personally went this route because my character was already developed as an adventurer, there by being non traditional just in that alone, as well as my findings in 1.0 and ARR that lead me to my conclusions about the tribal vs non tribal population distribution.

[Gone.]

Other than Revenent's Toll and Gridania, I don't see Moon Keepers anywhere but the Shroud, where they vary between bandits and cityfolk. Those integrated into the city seem to be exclusively female as well, or vast majority, going by the NPC count.

 

They're around Limsa, as well, and there's the one in Ul'dah that's a part of the GLA quest line. Seekers may be more prominent, sure, but it's clear to me that tradition is slowly becoming a way of the past in Miqo'te culture.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think that has way more to do with casual racism based off of a disgusting, harmful and misogynistic 'relationship' (if one can even call it that) than anything else.

 

Anyway, as Aysun said, not really the place and total up to player interpretation.

[Aduu Avagnar]

I think that the first bubble makes it quite clear that the menfolk wandering about being nomadic is still very much a current thing that is happening in a prominent manner.

 

If it was becoming a tging of the past, then different words would have been used.

[ArmachiA]

My friend also rolled her Miqote in 1.0 and just had her grow up in Ul'dah. She was quick to say that her's family had lived in Ul'dah for generations and, while her great grandparents may have more traditional Keepers, that has since been replaced with a more city lifestyle.

 

She actually got the idea from me. I'm a 3rd generation American on my dad's side. My grandmothers parents were Basque and my Grandfathers parents were Romanian and both sides immigrated to the states in the late 1910's/early 1920's. My great grandparents aren't that far removed from me really, but I know nothing of either culture and don't even know the language either side spoke. My grandmother says my great grandma could speak 4 languages - French, Spanish, Basque, and English, but she knew only one of them - English.

 

It's super easy and quick to just do as the Romans do once you are ingrained in it and it totally makes sense to me many miqote moved to the cities and just... learned that culture. My friend has actually been harassed over the decision, that she went the "lazy" route. I have to disagree, I don't think it's lazy at all to go that route and I really don't believe she is playing a Hyur with cat ears. Her character is a Miqote, it wouldn't be right if she played a Hyur, shes just.. a different one.

 

To me, it makes sense there's a lot of Miqote to immigrated. Why wouldn't there be? People in the real world immigrate all the time.

 

(As an aside, we should probably make a Miqote thread or revive an old one cuz...)

[Delilah Scythewood]

Try to keep the topic on the poly guide discussion, please. It's what this thread is for

 

Like I've mentioned a little ways back, I have my own opinion on miqo'te and how many RPers portray them, and since the conversation on this thread keeps shifting back to it I might just make a separate thread for it after all unless someone beats me to it.

[Kismet]

Different strokes for different folks. A couple of posters above said that most of the Miqo RPers they've come across have been non-traditional, but I have personally seen the exact opposite. Most Miqo chars I've encountered (either in random RP or from what I've read in bios) embrace the tribal lore to some extent or another... which is why I even brought up my point of the possibility of traditional Miqo'te practices being old-fashioned in the first place.

 

Regardless, until SE comes out and gives us some hyper-detailed lore breakdown for the Miqo'te, there's no 100% right or wrong side. The more important point I want to touch on is... If someone doesn't feel like sticking as closely to the lore as possible, or even if someone does just straight-up want to be a "Hyur with cat features"... Who cares? As long as they're not butting their way into your RP and trying to tell you what to do, it's not our place to do the same to them.

 

 

Now, if I want to bring things back on topic... I actually have a little bit of criticism for the polyamory guide. I will admit that this is a very nitpicky critique, but it's been nagging at me for a while so I figured I'd finally just touch on it.

 

I personally feel that the whole guide is... well... really long-winded. Every major post you've made in it thus far could be condensed into one or two simple, concise paragraphs. Is the need for such verbose elucidation meant mostly to cater to RPers who have zero experience in romantic RP, polyamorous or not?

[Delilah Scythewood]

Different strokes for different folks. A couple of posters above said that most of the Miqo RPers they've come across have been non-traditional, but I have personally seen the exact opposite. Most Miqo chars I've encountered (either in random RP or from what I've read in bios) embrace the tribal lore to some extent or another... which is why I even brought up my point of the possibility of traditional Miqo'te practices being old-fashioned in the first place.

 

Regardless, until SE comes out and gives us some hyper-detailed lore breakdown for the Miqo'te, there's no 100% right or wrong side. The more important point I want to touch on is... If someone doesn't feel like sticking as closely to the lore as possible, or even if someone does just straight-up want to be a "Hyur with cat features"... Who cares? As long as they're not butting their way into your RP and trying to tell you what to do, it's not our place to do the same to them.

 

 

 

Now, if I want to bring things back on topic... I actually have a little bit of criticism for the polyamory guide. I will admit that this is a very nitpicky critique, but it's been nagging at me for a while so I figured I'd finally just touch on it.

 

I personally feel that the whole guide is... well... really long-winded. Every major post you've made in it thus far could be condensed into one or two simple, concise paragraphs. Is the need for such verbose elucidation meant mostly to cater to RPers who have zero experience in romantic RP, polyamorous or not?

I don't find it nitpicky at all it was done intentionally so that people of all experiences could glean something from it. I'm very well aware most who are likely to look at it will scoff to themselves like "Anyone who's RPed for a few years should know this stuff!". Personally most of what I have covered are things I learned within the first few years of RP that later became fine tuned with experience.

 

I also received a more private comment that some parts of it were redundant. Part of that is my own writing impediment I have to go back and edit on due to my seizures, and others it's meant to repeat the same thing two or three times throughout to really drive the point home.

 

I'm always welcome to suggestions and will fine tune things as I go. For now, 90 percent of what I received from others have been really appreciative of how it's laid out so I'm hoping it's helping those who need things put into frank text.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Different strokes for different folks. A couple of posters above said that most of the Miqo RPers they've come across have been non-traditional, but I have personally seen the exact opposite. Most Miqo chars I've encountered (either in random RP or from what I've read in bios) embrace the tribal lore to some extent or another... which is why I even brought up my point of the possibility of traditional Miqo'te practices being old-fashioned in the first place.

 

Regardless, until SE comes out and gives us some hyper-detailed lore breakdown for the Miqo'te, there's no 100% right or wrong side. The more important point I want to touch on is... If someone doesn't feel like sticking as closely to the lore as possible, or even if someone does just straight-up want to be a "Hyur with cat features"... Who cares? As long as they're not butting their way into your RP and trying to tell you what to do, it's not our place to do the same to them.

 

 

Now, if I want to bring things back on topic... I actually have a little bit of criticism for the polyamory guide. I will admit that this is a very nitpicky critique, but it's been nagging at me for a while so I figured I'd finally just touch on it.

 

I personally feel that the whole guide is... well... really long-winded. Every major post you've made in it thus far could be condensed into one or two simple, concise paragraphs. Is the need for such verbose elucidation meant mostly to cater to RPers who have zero experience in romantic RP, polyamorous or not?

 

I think this gets more into preferences as a reader - I didn't find it particularly long winded, myself. It was a pretty easy read, and quite clear in general, the vertical "communication" notwithstanding (I suspect that was some formatting weirdness with the forum). You've got a good point about the intended audience, though. Personally, I feel that it's better to err on the side of verboseness in a guide, since it's implied that the intended audience is less experienced with the sort of activity that it's a guide to.

[Delilah Scythewood]

Different strokes for different folks. A couple of posters above said that most of the Miqo RPers they've come across have been non-traditional, but I have personally seen the exact opposite. Most Miqo chars I've encountered (either in random RP or from what I've read in bios) embrace the tribal lore to some extent or another... which is why I even brought up my point of the possibility of traditional Miqo'te practices being old-fashioned in the first place.

 

Regardless, until SE comes out and gives us some hyper-detailed lore breakdown for the Miqo'te, there's no 100% right or wrong side. The more important point I want to touch on is... If someone doesn't feel like sticking as closely to the lore as possible, or even if someone does just straight-up want to be a "Hyur with cat features"... Who cares? As long as they're not butting their way into your RP and trying to tell you what to do, it's not our place to do the same to them.

 

 

 

Now, if I want to bring things back on topic... I actually have a little bit of criticism for the polyamory guide. I will admit that this is a very nitpicky critique, but it's been nagging at me for a while so I figured I'd finally just touch on it.

 

I personally feel that the whole guide is... well... really long-winded. Every major post you've made in it thus far could be condensed into one or two simple, concise paragraphs. Is the need for such verbose elucidation meant mostly to cater to RPers who have zero experience in romantic RP, polyamorous or not?

 

I think this gets more into preferences as a reader - I didn't find it particularly long winded, myself. It was a pretty easy read, and quite clear in general, the vertical "communication" notwithstanding (I suspect that was some formatting weirdness with the forum). You've got a good point about the intended audience, though. Personally, I feel that it's better to err on the side of verboseness in a guide, since it's implied that the intended audience is less experienced with the sort of activity that it's a guide to.

^^^ This right here as well

 

In a way, it can even be intended as a guide to 'regular' genre of romances as well (monogamy for example) since both sides share similar issues with differences in scope and specifics.

 

Over all I try to keep in mind "If I was new and completely clueless, would this make complete and total sense to me?".

[Kismet]

I don't find it nitpicky at all it was done intentionally so that people of all experiences could glean something from it. I'm very well aware most who are likely to look at it will scoff to themselves like "Anyone who's RPed for a few years should know this stuff!". Personally most of what I have covered are things I learned within the first few years of RP that later became fine tuned with experience.

 

I also received a more private comment that some parts of it were redundant. Part of that is my own writing impediment I have to go back and edit on due to my seizures, and others it's meant to repeat the same thing two or three times throughout to really drive the point home.

 

I'm always welcome to suggestions and will fine tune things as I go. For now, 90 percent of what I received from others have been really appreciative of how it's laid out so I'm hoping it's helping those who need things put into frank text.

 

Ah, that all sounds entirely fair to me. The length of the guide aside, as long as it effectively delivers said point clearly, I have no other qualms. And you communicate your point very well, imo. No arguments there.

 

I think this gets more into preferences as a reader - I didn't find it particularly long winded, myself. It was a pretty easy read, and quite clear in general, the vertical "communication" notwithstanding (I suspect that was some formatting weirdness with the forum). You've got a good point about the intended audience, though. Personally, I feel that it's better to err on the side of verboseness in a guide, since it's implied that the intended audience is less experienced with the sort of activity that it's a guide to.

 

I agree with it being a reader's preference, which is why I was a bit afraid of how I was coming off there. >< Some people prefer a larger volume of clarification by nature and I actually must remind myself of this often.