Differences between the Echo and Hydaelyn's Blessing?

[Sounsyy]

And whether the MC is under Midgardsormr's aegis now rather than Hydaelyn's, because I can't see the MC facing primals anymore without some sort of protection (does this get addressed during the quests for the new Odin trial?).

 

Well, 1) I would say Midgardsormr has no interest in protecting us. Remember how he tells us he swears he will do no harm to us, but that does not mean others won't.

 

2) In regards to Odin, yes, kind of:

Odin's blade Zantetsuken is actually the "Elder Primal" not Odin. The Blade only tempers (Severs) when it needs a new rider. So that was their explanation for why the F.A.T.E. Odin changes appearances and riders every time he's defeated. The Blade tempered the Adventurer who defeated him and that Adventurer becomes the next Odin. However, after you defeat Trial Odin, Zantetsuken is taken by the Padjal and given to the Gods' Quiver for safekeeping. At the end, the Blade tempers one of the Quivermen and they make off with the Blade to become the next incarnation of Odin.

 

[Gegenji]

Good catch. I guess that settles that? What exactly did Mid do, then?

 

Maybe the Echo already "taught" us how to speak Bad Guy, that's why we kept it?

 

Well, we're still unsure if we still have the Echo. Considering the circumstances, we have lost Hydaelyn's blessing... but we've already have proof that the Echo is not her blessing - or at least not something only she can bestow. It's also been noted that Minfilia had to be told of what happened - and she can apparently sense the Echo in others or something?

 

So, I think all we've lost is the Light and not the Echo. So, no more ripping primals out of ancient deathweapons and no more shielding from ultimate deathmagics. Which we hopefully won't need to do, anyway, unless the OTHER Weapon that's supposedly at the Battlefront (?) gets unearthed and activated. Oh, and the whole thing about the Light keeping the non-local Ascians from just waltzing in to harass you and yours.

 

Then again, we don't know what we've gained beyond a smarmy dragonling friend from coming under Middy's protection. So maybe he can cover for where Hydaelyn would step in save our keisters... and the Ascian who DID decide to capitalize on the sudden breach got his teeth kicked in. So, we'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

 

Standard FFXIV procedure, really.

[Kage]

Well, we still have the Echo as evidenced when we could still sense the Ascian (maybe?) but we definitely could understand him.

 

WHATEVER IT WAS WE HAD WITH HYDAELYN... it seems to have been superseded by Midgardsormr. Obviously though, Minfilia and co. don't want us talking about how we don't have this blessing... but then they also don't want us to talk about how we spoke to Midgardsormr.

[Berrod Armstrong]

THEORY TIME:

 

Middums smashed Hydalyn's christmas-tree light circle and replaced it with babbu dragon? Perhaps they are essentially the same thing (the crystal circle and the dragon), just manifested differently due to the nature of the ones who granted them? 

 

The way I see it, Middums just replaced Hydaelyn. While I doubt he can grant the LEVEL of strength she could (or perhaps he can, if she had only been using a set amount of power on us), perhaps he is capable of granting the echo in the form of his weirdo 'blessing' as well. This may very well aid us in resisting enthrallment and understanding other languages.

 

END OF THEORY TIME.

[Melkire]

And whether the MC is under Midgardsormr's aegis now rather than Hydaelyn's, because I can't see the MC facing primals anymore without some sort of protection (does this get addressed during the quests for the new Odin trial?).

 

Well, 1) I would say Midgardsormr has no interest in protecting us. Remember how he tells us he swears he will do no harm to us, but that does not mean others won't.

 

2) In regards to Odin, yes, kind of:

Odin's blade Zantetsuken is actually the "Elder Primal" not Odin. The Blade only tempers (Severs) when it needs a new rider. So that was their explanation for why the F.A.T.E. Odin changes appearances and riders every time he's defeated. The Blade tempered the Adventurer who defeated him and that Adventurer becomes the next Odin. However, after you defeat Trial Odin, Zantetsuken is taken by the Padjal and given to the Gods' Quiver for safekeeping. At the end, the Blade tempers one of the Quivermen and they make off with the Blade to become the next incarnation of Odin.

 

 

 

1) I can see it going both ways. Others potentially doing harm to the MC doesn't necessarily mean he's going to stand by and do nothing. That said, his ongoing involvement is likely setup for Heavensward. Tasked to guard Silvertear Lake, takes down the Agrias, check. Roars and thereby summons the dragons against Ishgard (seemingly coincidental, I might add, to the Holy See falling under Ascian influence). Middy doesn't seem the benevolent type, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that his interests align somewhat with the Scions'. (I really need to bumrush and finish MSQ this weekend)

 

2)

 

 

Padjal interference prevents the MC from being Severed, then? Lucky.

 

[Gegenji]

My theory is thus:

 

When the PC entered Eorzea, they are gifted with two things. One being the Echo - the ability to see people's pasts, understand languages, and see otherworldly beings that also have the Echo (aka Ascians and the spirit form of that one Sahagin) - and the other being the Light, which is effectively Hydaelyn herself using the PC as a medium with which to exert her Will upon... well, Hydaelyn. The Echo makes one special, sure, but it is the Light that makes the PC the Warrior of Light - after all, Minfilia also has the Echo and no one refers to HER as a Warrior of Light (though I could think of plenty of other good reasons as well...).

 

However, with Bahamut up in Dalamud having drained the Lifestream to the extent he did during the cataclysm - along with our new friend Middy also potentially leeching her power to recover from his double-KO with the Agrias - Hydaelyn herself is still recovering and thus does not possess the power she should. The most she could do was still quite impressive - the aforementioned ripping of primal energy from Ultima Weapon and stopping the trademark Final Fantasy super-spell from eradicating the PC and his allies - but is also quite taxing on her still recovering reserves.

 

Enter Middy, who made a sort of covenant at some distant point in time and honors it by stripping the PC of the Light and offering his own protection instead. With the PC no longer Hydaelyn's medium, they no longer have access to Her divine protection in the form of the Light. However, we now have the protection of a great ancient wyrm who is supposedly on the verge of recovery. Perhaps the covenant is to protect her Chosen in her stead if she is in no position to do so? She certainly doesn't seem to be in a position to protect the PC like she wishes.

 

However, the Echo and the Light are two separate things. The Echo itself is a second gift - or perhaps a trait inherent in all life that can be turned "on" or "off" by a being of enough power - while the Light was us being a conduit for Hydaelyn's power. So, while the latter is gone by Middy, the PC still retains the former until such a time as it is taken from them... if can be taken away again once given.

 

So... um... yeah. :blush:

[Briggs]

It's been feeling to me that while we mortal adventurers have the potential to tap into the skilled known as the Echo, perhaps due to natural affinity to the World's aether, which enables those with the Echo a magically inclined empathy and heightened mental fortitude, the Light and Crystal blessing was / is still an entirely separate force.

 

No matter what the being or system is, self preservation is usually the default drive; Hydaelyn has always been aware of how sensitive and delicate it's world is, and that the Ascians, Dalamud, and whatever other forces we've had to face have always indirectly brought a threat to the Hydaelyn and the Aether. 

 

Where as Middy may have once been her means of an immune system within this, along with potential other unnamed forces, we're now in the best position to do what absent forces and creatures have been doing. We're not necessarily special nor are overly outstanding as the mortal races we are, but we're aware of what's going on and willing to lay our lives down, which is exactly what Hyd needs. The tenderness shown towards us via her words, speeches, or visions have been simply means to further convince the present organism to behave as her symbiotic protector. 

 

This blessing also has been what gave people a direct connection to the Aether so that the primals could be easily beckoned. Because Middy is potentially returning, we've served our purpose and he's now to take his default position. We no longer need her because Hyd now has a more reliable means to protect herself. Likewise, Middy knows what we've been capable of -- what the Ascian are capable of, and I think his last intention would be to ever allow us to mishandle that power, as the Ascian and Garleans might've. 

 

idk...

[Leomoon]

We Where blessed with the Echo and the crystals that gave us power but Midgardormr was so strong he should shatter the blessing and null are Echo into nothing that is why Nabriales was such a threat afterwards. We no longer held the blessing of Hydalyn and this he could walk into that place and take the staff from Sions.

 

The Blessing was with the Echo but it has since become weak after the Battle with Ultima because Hydalyn was no longer watching us.

[Zyrusticae]

I thought it was interesting to note just how big the difference was between Lahabrea's fight and Nabriales'. Lahabrea was particularly easy - a total cakewalk - in comparison to Nabriales, and I think a lot of that is down to the power of Hydaelyn's blessing. Shorn of our blessing as we were, what would otherwise have been an absurdly easy fight became a serious threat to our mortal existence. Where even the pathetic ilvls (an abstraction to represent our personal power) we had at launch was enough to ignore most of Lahabrea's attacks, we needed all of our skill, might, and mental faculties to defeat Nabriales without falling victim to his (and note that we had improved by leaps and bounds since the time we fought Lahabrea).

 

I'll be very curious to see how they handle these things moving forward. Will Midgardsormr serve to bolster our strength in lieu of Hydaelyns' Blessing? Or will we be forced to carry ourselves on our own two legs against such supernatural might?

[SeijiTataki]

I thought it was interesting to note just how big the difference was between Lahabrea's fight and Nabriales'. Lahabrea was particularly easy - a total cakewalk - in comparison to Nabriales, and I think a lot of that is down to the power of Hydaelyn's blessing. Shorn of our blessing as we were, what would otherwise have been an absurdly easy fight became a serious threat to our mortal existence. Where even the pathetic ilvls (an abstraction to represent our personal power) we had at launch was enough to ignore most of Lahabrea's attacks, we needed all of our skill, might, and mental faculties to defeat Nabriales without falling victim to his (and note that we had improved by leaps and bounds since the time we fought Lahabrea).

 

I'll be very curious to see how they handle these things moving forward. Will Midgardsormr serve to bolster our strength in lieu of Hydaelyns' Blessing? Or will we be forced to carry ourselves on our own two legs against such supernatural might?

 

Nabriales actually makes a specific comment at the start of his fight that he has no intent of holding back at all against you, unlike Lahabrea. Considering that all Lahabrea did was stand there and fling a few minor spells at you when presumably the two of them have similar powers and abilities, even if we were somehow weaker against the Ascians because of the lack of blessing, it's entirely plausible that Lahabrea simply didn't care to go full out. Nabriales implies that while we had the blessing we couldn't really be harmed, so it's entirely possible that Lahabrea was aware of this too, and was merely testing the limits to how much that protection had sway; IE he was just doing whatever to try and discourage you or even just to test the limits of the actual protection we had since he knew doing anything serious was ultimately futile as long as Hydaelyn had watch.

 

Regarding Echo vs Protection:

 

The player always had the Echo, but did not always have Hydaelyn's Protection.

 

If you recall we were always 'suffering' the effects of the Echo early on in our career, and we never truly received blessing until the end of our journey, and instead had to 'power it up' by defeating enemies and collecting elemental essences. We never truly had the full protection till nearly the very end when we managed to activate the whole elemental circle.

 

Additionally, it should also be noted here that we haven't simply 'lost' the Protection, but rather it had been sealed.

 

With this in mind it should then be noted that if the idea was that we never had Hydaelyn's full protection until we activated all the elemental affinities (for whatever reason), then Midgardsormr's sealing of those energies makes sense that it's temporarily blocked us from receiving the protection. As for why Hydaelyn is no longer responding to us - if there was indeed some sort of contract between Hydaelyn and Midgardsormr, then she would simply not be responding because this is part of his test in order to gain his blessing - whether in place of or in addition to Hydaelyn's own is yet to be seen. It's also possible that while Midgardsormr is exerting his presence upon his we simply can't communicate with Hydaelyn fully because he is there running interference.

 

[Goodfellow]

So if Hydaelyn's protection is what keeps us from being tempered and not the Echo (meaning Minfilia was mistaken), and Ifrit likened her protection to tempering (i.e. he couldn't temper us because we were already claimed/tempered), then what does Midgardsormr's action mean about the assumed permanence of tempering?

[Sounsyy]

...then what does Midgardsormr's action mean about the assumed permanence of tempering?

 

Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

[Kellach Woods]

Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

 

Has there been a record of such a thing happening, or are we assuming that the primals can call it back if they so wish?

[Kage]

A lore post from Fern a long time back very much insinuated that tempering may be undone through a cure or not it is unknown. But if a primal can giveth they can tale away especially if they can control how much tempering is done.

[Kellach Woods]

so, all we have to go on is a post that says it's something that can maybe happen.

 

I wonder if you're as bad as Captain Madison, if that can be taken away. Honestly wish they'd go back to him because now that he's in custody, they can probably do something terrible like experiment on him.

[Sounsyy]

Tempering is not necessarily permanent. Spoilers aside, a Primal may choose to release their subject(s) from their Temper at any time. However, short of this, there's no other known way to break tempering.

 

Has there been a record of such a thing happening, or are we assuming that the primals can call it back if they so wish?

 

/cough

 

An instance of de-tempering happens in Coil.

 

[Kellach Woods]

/cough

 

Yeah, chances of me doing Coil is close to zero.

 

And while it may not be tempering, we also have an incident in WoD that shows that even those lost to the Void can return.

[Zyrusticae]

Nabriales actually makes a specific comment at the start of his fight that he has no intent of holding back at all against you, unlike Lahabrea. Considering that all Lahabrea did was stand there and fling a few minor spells at you when presumably the two of them have similar powers and abilities, even if we were somehow weaker against the Ascians because of the lack of blessing, it's entirely plausible that Lahabrea simply didn't care to go full out. Nabriales implies that while we had the blessing we couldn't really be harmed, so it's entirely possible that Lahabrea was aware of this too, and was merely testing the limits to how much that protection had sway; IE he was just doing whatever to try and discourage you or even just to test the limits of the actual protection we had since he knew doing anything serious was ultimately futile as long as Hydaelyn had watch.

I don't buy it. I took it as typical video game villain swagger where he plays up his own abilities over that of his peers. Lahabrea obviously did not expect to be rebuffed to such a degree and was clearly attempting to destroy us utterly (listen to his dialogue! Guy is going all out for sure). Plus, while there is obviously going to be overlap between their abilities because they come from the same stock (whatever it is that Ascians pull their power from), they're also going to have their own quirks and nuances because they're all different people, just like the Scions all have their own specialties. Nabriales, after all, came from an entirely different world from Lahabrea. Who knows what kind of magic they used where he came from?

 

If Lahabrea shows up again and starts casting magic he never used before... well, we can have this discussion again then. Honestly, I doubt we're going to see him again, at least not for awhile, seeing as how he's lost face among his compatriots after his previous efforts. It wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't using his full repertoire, but then I doubt it was for lack of trying.

[Aysun]

I had someone approach me about this situation when they did the MSQ. They wondered how I would handle it, being as my character is a snowflake who has the Echo ICly. A hold over from my ignorance in 1.0 (using the intro to Ul'dah which turned out to be an Echo experience in her history, fighting primals IC), she HAD to have it. I had to clarify to the person in question that my character, while having the Echo and being an original Warrior of Light timewarper, is not THE Warrior of Light from the MSQ. Never had Hydaelyn's Light blessing, never met Midgarskdjfsa. Would be unaffected even if he was taking the Echo from the WoL.

 

When I went through the MSQ, it never even occurred to me that it'd be a problem anyway. The Echo and the Light/Crystal blessing are two different things to me, and apparently from reading this thread that's correct.

 

The Echo grants primal immunity, and language understanding, etc. In 1.0 there were varying degrees of strength of Echo, which as people have noticed must be a retcon now - in 1.0 Minfilia had it and it was much weaker than your own, as she did not understand the Sylphs. It is probably from Hydaelyn - maybe being tempered by Her? Unsure still! Either way, the Blessing of Light that she bestows as you collect the crystals for her in the 2.0 MSQ makes you THE Warrior of Light - who is also an adventurer who has the Echo. Many adventurers have it, after all.

 

So Midsgarskdjfds took that Blessing of Light, however since you are still able to understand the Ascian, the Echo is still in tact. Primal immunity should also still be in tact.

 

It did get a little confusing, though, what with having the mysterious Echo and being Hydaelyn's chosen warrior.. >>