Gun Control: How deadly are they in Eorzea?

[Aldotsk]

How deadly are these muskets in Eorzean lore? Are they considered as lethal where it can be bullet piercing, or considered "One shot, one kill"?

 

I am not sure if people discussed this before, but I've seen some people ICly roleplaying as unofficial Musketeers and now some pre-made Machinist or at least rangers with rifles/guns. Also there has been some Garlean roleplayers with their musket/rifles too.

 

Since Musketeers -do- exist in lore and have been proven many times like Reyner in Limsa and the Lalafell Yellowjacket member in Rogue quest story, along with Admiral Merlwyb. What can we say about the guns? 

 

Considerably, I've seen in Armorer's quest where Merlwyb using her pistol to test the strength of the armor, and it took several shots for the armor to wear down. So I think it's proven that the guns in Eorzea are not as deadly as it seems. More that the bullets are pellet based and requires several shots.

[Melkire]

You have to factor in Eorzean (Lominsan) manufacture versus Garlean manufacture. Then you have to factor in how gunblades are supposedly inherently superior courtesy of association with the big bads. Then you have to factor in magic aether, which throws everything out of whack.

 

tl;dr: I think the comic book rule of superhero competency applies here. Guns are as effective as they need to be.

[Warren Castille]

Bullets are going to be as-lethal as the poster writes they are. We don't know Merlwyb's need for testing the armor, or what caliber shot she used, if such a thing even exists in Eorzea. It won't take much more than someone else saying "These are specifically made to shoot through armor" to have that be handwaved away anyway. Such things exist in real life, after all. We have slugs that shoot through tank armor, and Eorzea's a world where magic exists.

 

That said, I imagine they're not simple to obtain (for now). They're reasonably expensive to maintain, ammunition would be costlier than a sword or a lance for the common man and while there's certainly evidence that guns are used by certain official offices, I don't think it's unreasonable for the average citizen to have a hard time getting their hands on one.

 

Of course, adventurers aren't common citizens, and we have RP shells where folks are building entire airships with combustible engines and power armors and magiteck mounts, so a firearm should be simple in comparison.

[Aldotsk]

I always wondered about how people would take Roleplayers with guns/muskets in combat. Would you say that it's considered as overpowered comparing to knives/swords/shields/arrows or even magics?

 

At this point, we'll see plenty of Musketeer/Machinist roleplayers who'll be wanting to wing the pistols at their opponents. So I feel that it's something that should be concerned in the future of how we want to approach to this.

[Lost River]

From my understanding, as dangerous as anything else.

 

Getting hit by a fireball is just as bad as getting shot with a gun in this universe. You can see it from the trailer/intro for the client. :3

[Gegenji]

I'm going to go on a muse fest here, so please bear with me and feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

 

The Machinist class, as we've seen so far, looks to be Eorzeans turning to using Garlean technology. Garleans, as we know, have no access to aether like most of the folks on Hydaelyn seem to. So, a lot of their magiteknology is just that - seeking to even the playing field (or tip it in their favor) in the battle against those that can.

 

As such, I would conjecture that Hydaelyn muskets - while not nearly as fatal as modern day weaponry - would still be roughly on the level of magic in regards to ranged destructive capability. Protection can be used to negate the damage (cobalt and higher armor vs. Manawalls and such aetheric wards), but can still be quite dangerous and certainly lethal if used properly.

 

I think the danger in guns lies mostly in the same issue they provide in real life: they're dangerously easy to learn and use. Even if you don't expect the recoil, it's just a matter of "point gun, pull trigger." At least with arcanima and thaumaturgy, it requires skill and training to be able to shape one's aether to the point that they can bring the same level of harm on another person. Even archery requires learning how to proper nock the arrow and the arm strength to pull the bowstring back, not to mention accounting for wind and the arc of the arrow over longer distances.

[Warren Castille]

I always wondered about how people would take Roleplayers with guns/muskets in combat. Would you say that it's considered as overpowered comparing to knives/swords/shields/arrows or even magics?

 

At this point, we'll see plenty of Musketeer/Machinist roleplayers who'll be wanting to wing the pistols at their opponents. So I feel that it's something that should be concerned in the future of how we want to approach to this.

 

This is something that was posed to me about the Grindstone, as well. I didn't think a lot about it before then, but I've put a lot of thought into this between Saturday and today.

 

When RPing combat with someone, part of the appeal is the colorful flourish and counter, or the cleverly taking damage without being killed. Gunshots don't leave a lot of room for the Defense Phase of RPing. It's already difficult enough to explain how someone can dodge an arrow in close range (sub thirty feet fulms), and bullets travel far faster. At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

 

This causes obvious problems in a turn-by-turn scenario. When the extent of your actions are 1)it missed 2)it was stopped by armor or 3)it broke armor it removes a lot of the creativity.

 

That's how I feel, anyway. I'm not technically in a position to make declarations for the Grindstone, and I'll pool the regulars to see how they feel, but firearms are a little one-sided when it comes to believable combat.

[Gegenji]

At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

 

That, or everyone suddenly has the training that folks get in real life on how to disarm a gunman at close range. Or a lot more folks are going to be rocking cobalt armor to the Grindstone to serve as their ye olde bullete-proofe vestes. Not to mention that I would hope the people with the guns aren't shooting to kill - instead going for disabling via targeting limbs and such, would be harder to land a shot on.

 

Still, it certainly sounds like it might be best to extend "no magic" to "no magic and no magitek" for the Grindstone. Except in extenuating circumstances, of course (like Dogberry's legs).

[Harmonixer]

I would think that magic is more 'deadly' in the right sort of applications, even that is a whole other can of worms. It can be applied to everything too, let's not forget that.

 

We have to consider things like muzzleflash, which is deadly in it's own right- distance, bullets used vs whatever it's actually hitting etc etc.

 

My conclusion is that we can't consider them any more or less deadly than anything else that exists.

[TheLastCandle]

In a world of magic and aether, are guns really that powerful? I'm leaning towards "no" - at least to the adventuring populace at large. To the average NPC, a guy with a gun is going to be just as dangerous as an evil, power-mad thaumaturge.

 

I think Gegenji hit the nail on the head on this point: if guns suddenly became commonplace, their inherent ease of use would change everything for the average Eorzean. I'm going to be interested to see how (and if..) the Machinist lore/quest touches upon this point.

[Warren Castille]

At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

 

That, or everyone suddenly has the training that folks get in real life on how to disarm a gunman at close range. It definitely sounds like it might be best to extend "no magic" to "no magic and no magitek" for the Grindstone. Except in extenuating circumstances, of course (like Dogberry's legs).

 

That's about what I had in mind. There's also the fact that it's a martial contest, not a shooting range. Firing under duress is a different kind of skill than gladiatorial combat.

 

I would think that magic is more 'deadly' in the right sort of applications, even that is a whole other can of worms. It can be applied to everything too, let's not forget that.

 

We have to consider things like muzzleflash, which is deadly in it's own right- distance, bullets used vs whatever it's actually hitting etc etc.

 

My conclusion is that we can't consider them any more or less deadly than anything else that exists.

 

Every weapon can kill you. Some of them do it a lot easier than others, though. Firearms have a very low skill requirement to murder someone, even by accident. It takes a bit more practice to know how to approach someone with a hafted weapon, or a short one.

[Aldotsk]

I always wondered about how people would take Roleplayers with guns/muskets in combat. Would you say that it's considered as overpowered comparing to knives/swords/shields/arrows or even magics?

 

At this point, we'll see plenty of Musketeer/Machinist roleplayers who'll be wanting to wing the pistols at their opponents. So I feel that it's something that should be concerned in the future of how we want to approach to this.

 

This is something that was posed to me about the Grindstone, as well. I didn't think a lot about it before then, but I've put a lot of thought into this between Saturday and today.

 

When RPing combat with someone, part of the appeal is the colorful flourish and counter, or the cleverly taking damage without being killed. Gunshots don't leave a lot of room for the Defense Phase of RPing. It's already difficult enough to explain how someone can dodge an arrow in close range (sub thirty feet fulms), and bullets travel far faster. At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

 

This causes obvious problems in a turn-by-turn scenario. When the extent of your actions are 1)it missed 2)it was stopped by armor or 3)it broke armor it removes a lot of the creativity.

 

That's how I feel, anyway. I'm not technically in a position to make declarations for the Grindstone, and I'll pool the regulars to see how they feel, but firearms are a little one-sided when it comes to believable combat.

 

From that bolded letters I've made for your statement, I agree the fact that it's hard to explain arrow vs bullet in terms of combat. Though I still remember back in my high school through college, the guns in the 17th-18th century were musket based and it took longer time to reload and fire at the enemy. (cleaning the barrel and pour the powder to reload and such). 

 

In Final Fantasy XII, Balthier used rifle in the game - even though the rifle had such a strong damage ratio, it had the longest delay to aim and shoot within the time sequence comparing to bow and arrow. (I am sure FFXI did have most rifles to have delays too).

 

Though I disagree with people using and deadly arms in Grindstone, but I don't run the event so I can't say what should be implemented in the match.

[Warren Castille]

In a world of magic and aether, are guns really that powerful? I'm leaning towards "no" - at least to the adventuring populace at large. To the average NPC, a guy with a gun is going to be just as dangerous as an evil, power-mad thaumaturge.

 

I think Gegenji hit the nail on the head on this point: if guns suddenly became commonplace, their inherent ease of use would change everything for the average Eorzean. I'm going to be interested to see how (and if..) the Machinist lore/quest touches upon this point.

 

Except, as far as we've seen, guns have no cast time. Sufficiently powerful magic at least requires concentration and focus and time to channel. An unskilled lalafell child with a pistol can accidentally heartshot a master mage trying to summon Meteor.

 

Guns just feel like there's no balance to them after the first shot.

[Sounsyy]

So, I've been heavily debating Machinist once it comes out (for main DPS role on Hyp but also an IC skill with Sounsyy) because Sounsyy was a Knight of the Barracuda and all 'Cuda are trained to use firearms.

 

That said... I don't think I'd ever use a gun in combat RP against another player. Mainly because I recognize that it'll force one of two things: 1) That Sounsyy will have the absolute shittiest accuracy to avoid killing another player. 2) My opponent may feel forced to do absolutely incredibly over powered things in order to avoid said bullet or dying if they do get shot. Besides, with very few exceptions, most combat RP is friendly dueling. Do you really bring a gun to a friendly duel like the Grindstone? You shoot somebody... you have the intention of killing them.

 

As to how powerful they are... I have to agree with everyone elses' sentiments. They are as powerful as they need to be for the story. Garlean bullets one shot nameless NPCs in 1.0 MSQ and the End of an Era trailer. But against important characters (much like the movies) bullets never seem to slow them down.

 

For instance, in 2.0 Garuda fight, Gaius van Baelsar guns down a whole flock of Ixal with his wrist cannon. But in 1.0 during the "Living on a Prayer" quest, Gaius shoots you in the back with that same wrist cannon, and you are more-or-less unharmed. Similarly, in the 2.0 armorer quest Merlwyb's bullets are blocked by some expertly bought-off-the-marketboard chain-mail. But in 1.0, Merlwyb single-handedly guns down loads of people in the quests "Deus Ex Machina" and "Shot Through the Heart."

 

Sooooo much like any video game, movie, or whatever - in the FFXIV universe guns only kill people when the story needs them to kill people.

[Gegenji]

At the end of the day, the posting comes down to "I shoot at you" and then it being either blind luck or inaccuracy on behalf of the shooter to rationalize a miss.

 

That, or everyone suddenly has the training that folks get in real life on how to disarm a gunman at close range. It definitely sounds like it might be best to extend "no magic" to "no magic and no magitek" for the Grindstone. Except in extenuating circumstances, of course (like Dogberry's legs).

 

That's about what I had in mind. There's also the fact that it's a martial contest, not a shooting range. Firing under duress is a different kind of skill than gladiatorial combat.

 

I actually went back and added a couple other ways it could "work" in my post after I thought of them, but you raise another good point. I don't think gun marksmanship falls under the kind of martial skill that the Grindstone emphasizes (except for maybe GUN KATAS, wootah!).

 

Though, with both archery and guns being in the game now... I could definitely see the appeal of a marksmanship challenge in a similar fashion. Have a bunch of training dummies set out on a plot and have players take turns rolling and emoting their shots at the targets. Could even use a sort of "darts" system for folks to accrue points!

[Warren Castille]

Guns don't kill people. Plots do.

 

Ahyup.

[Gegenji]

Guns don't kill people. Plots do.

 

Ahyup.

 

That's deep, man.

[Sounsyy]

Guns don't kill people. Plots do.

 

Ahyup.

 

That's deep, man.

 

Truism.

[Aldotsk]

Guns don't kill people. Plots do.

 

Ahyup.

 

That's deep, man.

 

With all that statement said, I guess in terms of bullets - I guess it'll just come down to how people will react to it ICly then. Honestly, I don't mind shooting more than few bullets to knockdown a target or creature if I had to (if I was a ranger/gunner/Machinist even). But how far I can handle people with their creativity in their guns and bullets is another story though. Like if they said something like exploding bullet or "hysteria bullet", I am not sure if I should take it seriously :'/

[Gegenji]

I have a feeling that taking a bullet to the face will be just as dangerous as taking an arrow to the face.... or a Fire spell to the face... or an axe to the face. Basically anything else dangerous to the face, really.

 

The main point will be making sure they can't shoot you in the face. And we technically have ways to do that. Cobalt stops bullets, I'm fairly certain Ida PUNCHED bullets in a 1.0 cutscene, and I think there is evidence of a magic barrier deflecting rounds as well. So, as dumb as it seems, it certainly looks like there's ways to overcome someone with a gun.

 

There could be another method of gun control that we could also pull from real life: licenses to carry. With how easy it is to pick up and shoot a gun, I'm almost certain at least the folks in Ul'dah will want to make sure that some upstart merchant who got screwed by the big boys can't just show up and gun down someone on the council. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Flames or even the Sworn institute keeping a register of who possesses a firearm.

 

... Plus, forcing people to obtain a license means paying for said license. Which means more money changing hands.

[Warren Castille]

With all that statement said, I guess in terms of bullets - I guess it'll just come down to how people will react to it ICly then. Honestly, I don't mind shooting more than few bullets to knockdown a target or creature if I had to (if I was a ranger/gunner/Machinist even). But how far I can handle people with their creativity in their guns and bullets is another story though. Like if they said something like exploding bullet or "hysteria bullet", I am not sure if I should take it seriously :'/

 

There's no line to be drawn. If the roleplaying community (not necessarily us here at the RPC, but I mean in general) are expected to be tolerant of people playing white mages, people playing primal slayers, people being glamoured Au Ra, people stretching lore by any means, then when Irvine X'Blazeit fires his Black Hole Super Nova machine gun at you, you're stuck dealing with it.

[V'aleera]

Considering Yda protects herself from being shot by literally punching bullets out of the air, I wouldn't put too much stock in the strength of firearms. They're on the same level as everything else, at best.

 

On the subject of guns in the Grindstone: what about rubber bullets?

[Chris Ganale]

You joke about gun kata, Chachani, but that is Yuuna's fighting style with pistols. Mind that she traditionally will use the longer, carbine-type weapons machinists get for longer and intermediate ranges. Gun Fu comes out when someone closes to melee distance.

 

In any case, I'm on a phone on a lunch break right now so I don't have the time or means to expound my thoughts on guns in a fantasy environment, other than to say I always have and will take the side of guns in such a debate. I'll come back after work and expand on it.

[Warren Castille]

Considering Yda protects herself from being shot by literally punching bullets out of the air, I wouldn't put too much stock in the strength of firearms. They're on the same level as everything else, at best.

 

On the subject of guns in the Grindstone: what about rubber bullets?

 

I don't think we should be using NPCs doing cool things during cutscenes as the benchmark, otherwise I'm going to canonically start swinging Godbert's hammer around and playing Devil May Cry at the Grindstone.

 

Rubber bullets might be considered. Beanbags, too, like riot cops use. I'll burn that bridge when it comes to it, but I'm uneasy about it simply because of how indefensible they are when it comes to posting. It still boils down to the attacker's accuracy, not the defender's anything-except-armor-maybe.

[Telluride]

Another point to consider is that gunpowder weapons, in RL, have been around a LOT longer than people think, but their reliability, danger to the user, slow load times, and loud operating noise (which kind of ruled them out as a sniper assassin's weapon for a long time...) made them sort of a fringe weapon for centuries. I read a recent article that pointed out muskets/rifles in paintings from much, much earlier in history than your typical modern person would believe.

 

So, the question must also consider that when we have mages, and enhanced archery techniques, that firesand weapons simply aren't especially useful EXCEPT for putting in the hands of greener troops to quickly try to match firepower against experienced archers and fire-throwers, and even though a musket may be easy to aim and shoot, LOADING them is a massive vulnerability for a magicpunk culture like Eorzea, since in the time it takes even an experienced musketeer to pour powder and shot, an archer or Thaumaturge can get off three-plus ranged attacks, maybe more.

 

Indeed, the most expedient use for firesand weaponry seems to come in at the artillery level: cannons, which are smaller, more portable and often more destructive than counterweight or torsion-based siege weapons, making them ideal for ships and use against really big targets... which is exactly why we'd see Limsans apparently leading the way for their use in Eorzea.