Let's talk about Valve new addiction to the Workshop

[OttoVann]

I don't really buy that argument when:

 

A. So many great artists are floundering for work & pay.

 

B. So many great modders (read: programmers) work for fun rather than profit.

 

C. So many artists and modders go into the video game industry professionally off the backs of free modding projects such as those that I've mentioned.

 

D. What constitutes and qualifies as "better" is purely subjective.

 

Think I'll bow out of this thread at this point.

 

Works for Dota2, a game which is a few hundred, to thousands of times larger than Skyrim ever will be. Who here in the last ten years has heard of businesses, that employ modders, to only make mods for a game? It hasn't happened until Valve enabled people to monetize their work. Happens now in big games where money can be made. Great modders who do what they do, but can find work in an art studio making mods. I see nothing wrong with those people being able to get paid for their work.

 

Ignore the reality of modders being able to find work, only modding games, but it's happening whether you like it or not. For games that are given out for free, then monetized from the ground up via mods, people self-employ and if they are talented, make huge money.

 

The old system worked, for you. Now it works for the content creators and the end-consumer.

 

God damn this thread is sad.  So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create.  

 

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

 

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

 

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

 

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community.  Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

 

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games.  Because the monetization was there.  "But modders did it in the past for free", okay.  When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game.  

 

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily.  Anuxi is a good example.  She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized.  Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

 

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement.  Simply put.  Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

 

Times have changed, for the better.

That's very relative, because hats and cosmetics in Dota are that. Cosmetics. Completely optional things that influence very little on your game. I'm a ex-TF2 player so I'm aware of the example very well.

 

But in many games, specially Skyrim, mods actually expand upon the experience, and in many cases are almost necessary, like SKSE and SkyUI. Not having them, while ignorable, becomes very hard to return to the normal, and they naturally expand and influence the game a lot. As of now, the bundle of mods on Skyrim, a game that rely a lot nowadays on mods for it's experience, is almost two times the price of the game.

 

Should Heavensward be free, via this logic?

[Desu Nee]

God damn this thread is sad.  So many people are outright raging because they literally feel entitled to mods for a game, something they didn't work to help create.  

 

Don't pay for them if you don't want to, just don't act entitled about it either.

 

I invite you to take a look at Zandronum (and other, older source ports for Doom, Doom II, Heretic, Hexen, etc.) and FreeSpace 2 Source Code Project for wonderful examples and demos of what can be done and developed for a community by the community when both the tools and the end product are freely available to anyone and everyone.

 

There's no "entitlement" here, just sad resignation that large companies seek bigger profit margins.

 

And I invite you to look at games like Dota2, and TeamFortress2, where cosmetics are made almost exclusively by the community and sold to the community.  Almost no one here plays those games so consider the following:

 

Many, many artists quit their day jobs to make hats for those games.  Because the monetization was there.  "But modders did it in the past for free", okay.  When you give people an avenue to earn money for their work put in, versus it always being free and relying on charity (which is rare, small, and hardly materializes) you can attract much more skilled people to mod for your game.  

 

A lot of people who make cosmetics for games like Dota2 and TF2 make over six figures, easily.  Anuxi is a good example.  She would not have quit her day job, and she would not have made cosmetics that a lot of players fucking love without being able to have her work monetized.  Thank god she was able to get paid for her work and keeps making a lot of stuff people want.

 

Sure, there will always be free mods, but lets be perfectly honest this thread is reflecting entitlement.  Simply put.  Its also ignoring the positive effects that this brings, like attracting people with real talent to mod for a game.

 

Times have changed, for the better.

That's very relative, because hats and cosmetics in Dota are that. Cosmetics. Completely optional things that influence very little on your game. I'm a ex-TF2 player so I'm aware of the example very well.

 

But in many games, specially Skyrim, mods actually expand upon the experience, and in many cases are almost necessary, like SKSE and SkyUI. Not having them, while ignorable, becomes very hard to return to the normal, and they naturally expand and influence the game a lot. As of now, the bundle of mods on Skyrim, a game that rely a lot nowadays on mods for it's experience, is almost two times the price of the game.

 

Should Heavensward be free, via this logic?

Not really, since it's an official expansion that heavily adds to the game made from the developer themselves with new textures, dialogue, art, enemies, mechanics, etc etc.

 

It's not something taken from what we have and recycled anew, or not the investment of a third party. But I'm actually tired of this discussion, since I've been having this on other places, and I wanted to vent more than anything.

[Branson Thorne]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

[OttoVann]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

[Desu Nee]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want.  The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want.  Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this?  I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time.  Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money.  Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

No offense, but that would just be an excuse for the devs to do less stuff and just let the community build the game.

[OttoVann]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want.  The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want.  Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this?  I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time.  Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money.  Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

No offense, but that would just be an excuse for the devs to do less stuff and just let the community build the game.

 

And since you got the game for free, or nearly free, what exactly are you complaining about? A free game?

[Flashhelix]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

 

I'd prefer to think about all the massive mods that have succeeded due to people loving to do it and not needing the incentive of money to actually produce something worthwhile, IE how things have been going for nearly two decades in the modding scene.

 

So I'd excuse people for not being too optimistic for what is basically the Evolve DLC shit x10000 and with the money going to different places.

[OttoVann]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

 

I'd prefer to think about all the massive mods that have succeeded due to people loving to do it and not needing the incentive of money to actually produce something worthwhile, IE how things have been going for nearly two decades in the modding scene.

 

So I'd excuse people for not being too optimistic for what is basically the Evolve DLC shit x10000 and with the money going to different places.

 

I'm of the opinion people should be enabled to get paid to do what they love, like modding or drawing art for people to buy of their FF characters. If someone wants to use Valves system, and charge a penny for their mod to Skyrim out of altruism, by all means why not? If someone wants to earn something back for the time they spent modding a game, why not? Because it didn't happen 10 years ago?

[Desu Nee]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want.  The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want.  Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this?  I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time.  Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money.  Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

No offense, but that would just be an excuse for the devs to do less stuff and just let the community build the game.

 

And since you got the game for free, or nearly free, what exactly are you complaining about?  A free game?

Depends really. I hardly see a game with depth, lore, effort and worldbuilding like Elder Scrolls would make a Free Singleplayer. Are we really just not bothering and giving a glorified engine while we sit and let the community make the game themselves while we get money for nothing?

[OttoVann]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want.  The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want.  Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this?  I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time.  Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money.  Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

No offense, but that would just be an excuse for the devs to do less stuff and just let the community build the game.

 

And since you got the game for free, or nearly free, what exactly are you complaining about?  A free game?

Depends really. I hardly see a game with depth, lore, effort and worldbuilding like Elder Scrolls would make a Free Singleplayer. Are we really just not bothering and giving a glorified engine while we sit and let the community make the game themselves while we get money for nothing?

 

I'm not sure you can say money for nothing, where did that engine come from? In a sense, what your describing is royalties, roughly. And besides, if people make the content, and customers buy it - whats the issue? The only way to mod on a scale ala Skyrim is if you have those dev-released tools. Free mods are always a possibility and a strict requirement for certain XXX tiered mods.

[Flashhelix]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

 

I'd prefer to think about all the massive mods that have succeeded due to people loving to do it and not needing the incentive of money to actually produce something worthwhile, IE how things have been going for nearly two decades in the modding scene.

 

So I'd excuse people for not being too optimistic for what is basically the Evolve DLC shit x10000 and with the money going to different places.

 

I'm of the opinion people should be enabled to get paid to do what they love, like modding or drawing art for people to buy of their FF characters. If someone wants to use Valves system, and charge a penny for their mod to Skyrim out of altruism, by all means why not? If someone wants to earn something back for the time they spent modding a game, why not? Because it didn't happen 10 years ago?

 

Bethesda has a track record of releasing games with quite a lot of features lacking, (correctly) anticipating that modders will fix any issues. If paid mods become commonplace, then the idea of paying a good amount in addition to the 60+ dollar game you've already bought just to make said game playable is very much possible, and while the thought of a modder being rewarded for their effort (which already happens, see donations) is nice, it hardly helps the consumer side of things.

[Kage]

I foresee this becoming a topic that starts to go into how players are starting to really dislike when games are released and at launch there's 20 pieces of DLC that could/should have been in the vanilla game but are now Paid DLC.

 

 

 

 

If not, I can see the reasoning behind it. I don't know about the entire situation but if there are still free mods I think that's ok. They're not forcing all mods into being paid-for.

[OttoVann]

You could easily pay quadruple the amount for the mods as you did the actual game.

That doesn't sound very fun for me. But then again, I have the option to not buy them and do without.

 

 

So overall I just find it very "meh"

 

Imagine, with this new-aged system in place, what would happen if say Elder Scrolls 6 was free, or something like 10-20 dollars and they from day one they enabled modders to do w/e they want and charge w/e they want. The base game is good, fun, but then your shown all the mods you could buy and expand the game with - if you want. Mods that range from stupid shit like dildo swords to those giant mods in Skyrim that add whole new realms.

 

Would there be anything wrong with this? I wonder what kind of mods we'd get then, and how quickly they'd be made if their creators knew, from the start, that they could not starve and make something worth their time. Think about all those giant fucking mods we've seen over the years die out due to lack of effort, time, energy, and money. Now imagine people being able to try and make ambitious mods like that, especially if they are onto something people would want to buy, and know that they can live off of it.

 

I'd prefer to think about all the massive mods that have succeeded due to people loving to do it and not needing the incentive of money to actually produce something worthwhile, IE how things have been going for nearly two decades in the modding scene.

 

So I'd excuse people for not being too optimistic for what is basically the Evolve DLC shit x10000 and with the money going to different places.

 

I'm of the opinion people should be enabled to get paid to do what they love, like modding or drawing art for people to buy of their FF characters. If someone wants to use Valves system, and charge a penny for their mod to Skyrim out of altruism, by all means why not? If someone wants to earn something back for the time they spent modding a game, why not? Because it didn't happen 10 years ago?

 

Bethesda has a track record of releasing games with quite a lot of features lacking, (correctly) anticipating that modders will fix any issues. If paid mods become commonplace, then the idea of paying a good amount in addition to the 60+ dollar game you've already bought just to make said game playable is very much possible, and while the thought of a modder being rewarded for their effort (which already happens, see donations) is nice, it hardly helps the consumer side of things.

 

In a situation like this, your right it's quite shit. Theres no getting around it, it's greed laden bullshit. It's also a pretty heavy strike against people being allowed to charge for their mods, but a situation like this is also a heavy strike against buying the game in the first place because everything you said is right.

[Domri Blackblade]

I think we're straying from a very basic point in that not all mods are compatible. Coming from someone whose skyrim is considered lite with 80+ mods, I can tell you countless compatibility issues arise when I expand further and it takes a lot of troubleshooting. I'm not going to drop $3 on something I don't even know will work with what I already have.

 

But if you make something I love (that total immersion pack is godly), I will happily donate to you.

[V'aleera]

I am not a huge fan of mods and I rarely use them unless absolutely necessary.

 

With that said, what I do have a lot of experience with is large businesses who possess art assets for commercial use, and the lawyers who work for them. If this "pay for modding" stuff gets much bigger in the next few years, the more prolific mod sellers (and facilitators like Steam) should probably brace themselves for a series of test case lawsuits from the game developers/publishers wanting their cuts.

[K'nahli]

Please mind your tone, everyone. A few posts in here could arguably come off as quite sharp.

 

~~~~~

 

I'm not sure I am seeing the whole picture here, but otherwise I think I am of the opinion that if people want to see ensured payout for the work they put into a mod then by all means they are entitled to it. Would it be a shame for us as consumers if it caught on? Absolutely. Though I can't say I have any reason to complain.

[Mercer]

So something relative to the main topic:

 

So a few of the high profile mods have been going pay to play, we know this. Evidence has come out that if a mod developer would prefer donations and pay what you want for their mod that Steam will remove all donation links from their page.

 

Steam supports a pay what you want model, but it requires a form of minimum payment, not free. This move really just feels greedy and a cash grab now they are removing options from it's mod authors.

[D'eshel]

I don't really see a problem with this, it's basically becoming third party DLC.

 

Mods are tough to make, they deserve it.

 

EDIT: Also, it doesn't look like anything Valve is making you do, it looks like something the individual developers are setting up, Valve is just facilitating it.

 

 

Uh... what? What are you talking about?

 

You do realise that modders in this situation get the least or the same amount of profit as Valve does, right? (from what I understood, most of the cash always goes to the dev).

 

Yeah, mods are hard to make, there's no point in denying that, but since when did any modder DEMAND money for a mod? They were doing it mostly for fun and for the gaming community.

 

What they deserve is a donate button, not something like this, where their work can be easily stolen by someone for profit.

[Warren Castille]

Can't find my sources, but I read someone say it's a 75/25 split in favor of Valve. The rest trickles down to the modder. Infinitely more money than the zero they were getting by releasing it for free, but not really big stacks of cash.

 

I don't really play Bethesda games, but even I understand that buying a new one translates into "We got it started, but expect the modders to do the rest of our jobs for us." When freelance hobbyists are making better character models than your pro team, something is wrong with your studio.

[Mercer]

Can't find my sources, but I read someone say it's a 75/25 split in favor of Valve. The rest trickles down to the modder. Infinitely more money than the zero they were getting by releasing it for free, but not really big stacks of cash.

 

I don't really play Bethesda games, but even I understand that buying a new one translates into "We got it started, but expect the modders to do the rest of our jobs for us." When freelance hobbyists are making better character models than your pro team, something is wrong with your studio.

 

That's correct, it is a 75/25 split for Valve. There are a few more rules to consider though:

 

Modders are only paid when they hit $100 earned per month. You don't hit $100 you get nothing. This is compounded by the 75/25 split, meaning that to get paid there actually needs to be $300/$100 earned. $100 for the modder, $300 for Valve. If the grand total of sales for the month is less than $400 modders gets nothing.

 

It gets better. You must have $100 in your steam wallet to be able to cash out to a bank account. You can only cash out on their bank roll, which is the 30th at midnight of every month. If you do not cash out on that date, you don't get paid for the month. If there is an error in the transaction, you don't get paid for the month.

[Warren Castille]

...so the folks who agreed to be featured are naive at best, or stupid greedy fucks at the worst. Check.

[K'nahli]

Wow okay, I think I understand what's going on a bit better now.

 

 

That's... just terrible.

[Mercer]

There's more to it on the policy handling side of it. It's up to mod creators to police their own products. If a mod is created on say "The Nexus" and the mod creator doesn't want to go to Steam a third party can copy the mod and put it on Steam. Copy the username and all that since usernames are easy to change on Steam. It's up to the original author to then come to Valve and complain their mod has been coppied. If they don't, the copy cat is able to earn money off the original mod without recourse.

 

Effectively this gives two options to modders. You either join steam to protect your work where you might as well monetize to earn some cash or put in extra time in addition to your modding to police the mod section. While earning no money.

 

When it comes down to more work for no pay or joining the new movement for pay (even if valve takes a huge cut) which would you do?

[Desu Nee]

Actually, from what a Modder said, but kept his identity anonymous, it's something akin to 30/45/25 Split. 30% goes to Valve, 45% goes to the developer I think, and only the 25% goes to the Modder. I don't think Valve would do something as stupid as take all the money and have their ass sued.

 

 

Gabe Newell is probably laughing in mountains of cash and laughing at us. So much for Mustard Race.

[Kage]

There's not much of a check system going on too. If you're like some people who have so many mods on, you might be paying for one that stole assets from another modder's work.