the practices of CNJ vs WHM?

[SayonaraRevival]

I AM HERE WITH MANY QUESTIONS RE: CNJ vs WHM. 

 

I just finished reading some loredumps, bless, and I'm still wondering some things that other players might know or remember. or maybe I'm just looking for some loremongers to give me a hand.

 

(Aisa's ended up at a start-up magic college/school/etc and she's somehow going to manage CNJ professor. she has enough background in that so it works, but I figure I should get all my crap figured out so I can play such a role properly -- at least what I can't glean from obsessive screenshots of the CNJ and WHM quests.)

 

1. how is the practice of conjury different from the practices of succor (whether modern Padjali forms, or the old forms from Amdapor) exactly?

 

succor was forbidden because it was somehow misused (how, I wonder?) during the War of the Magi... so how is conjury different from white magic in its potential for misuse? is it "dumbed down" to help the environment? or are there methods White Mages would have known that conjury doesn't know?

 

2. is conjury necessarily "weaker" than white magic?

 

I'd assume Padjal are generally much 'stronger' than the average Conjurer, and if so, is this because the elementals' gift of white magic, or is it an innate strength of white magic to have stronger healing potential?

 

(with the game aspect, having Benediction would support that, but gameplay standpoints don't always seem to be too accurate... plus, you get Regen at 35 only with being WHM but Medica II is seemingly a lv 50 CNJ thing that also throws Regen on when casted and I ? don't know how that's explainable. besides maybe Regen being a spell only a very skilled and/or talented CNJ would know how to cast, while I suppose in that logic it would be standard teaching for any Padjal WHM in training.)

 

bonus: we see Y'shtola using something that to me resembles Holy in this

.

 

... but what is it? some fancy Sharlayan adaptation of Holy? or is it actually something else? does anyone even know the answer to that? is that more the territory of "headcanons"?

 

 

I swear I have more questions than 2 and a half, but can't think of anything else. maybe I'll remember when some answers happen and I can ask further questions...

[Sounsyy]

Kay, I'm gonna drop some lore links and quoted text that's pertinent then I'll go in to try to answer your questions directly.

 

So without further ado:

• Hearer & Conjurer Questions
  
• CNJ Attire - What the Robe Colors Mean
  
• Padjal and WHM Lore
  
• The Mechanics of Magic
  
• Conjurers and the Elemental Wheel
  

 

 

“Conjury calls upon the elements of earth, wind, and water and concentrates them to a potency at which spells can be weaved. Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings. A wand or cane made from unworked wood is then utilized to focus the aether until it manifests as the desired spell. Versed also in magicks that restore and strengthen, conjurers are regarded as accomplished healers.”

 

My summary of WHM and CNJ:

White Magic or Succor is the magic of the Elementals. Around the middle of the 5th Astral Era, it was gifted to the Amdaporians to balance the destructive power wrought by Shatotto's Black Magic. These Amdaporians were tasked with restoring what Black Magic destroyed. For many years, this balance persisted, but as Black Mages sought greater and more powerful spells, White Mages stretched the limits of their power and the War of the Magi broke loose, bringing irreparable harm to the planet and the Twelveswood. Furious, the Elementals summoned a great flood which washed the taint of the Magi from the planet and grew the Twelveswood up and around the lost city of Amdapor so that its magic would never be recovered. For 1000 years White Magic was lost to the world, until the Elementals birthed the Padjal race from the Gelmorrans and filled them with the blessing of Succor. These Padjal protected and restored the Wood with their power and lead the new Gridanians into an age of peace with the Wood.

 

Conjury is the youngest form of magic, born only 500 years ago during the time of Gelmorra. After the 5th Umbral Era had ended and the survivors made their way back to the Twelveswood, they found their way blocked by thick trees and angered Elementals. So the Elezen dug beneath the forest and lived in caves for a 1000 years, trying to make peace with the Elementals above and live within the Wood once more as they did in the time of Amdapor. Now, during this time, Hyur began flocking to Eorzea in great migratory waves, causing wars between the Hyur and Elezen races all across Eorzea. However, when the Hyur attempted to enter the Twelveswood, the Elementals forbade them egress as well. Looking past their racial differences, the Elezen of Gelmorra welcomed the Hyur with open arms. It is believed this act of goodwill and fellowship is what compelled the Elementals to reconsider their stance. The Elementals sent Moogles to communicate with the leaders of Gelmorra and teach them a way to communicate with the Elementals. The magic the Moogles taught the Gelmorrans became known as Conjury, the ability to manipulate the aether in nature using concentration and meditation. This magic birthed the first Hearers, men who could hear the will of the Elementals.

 

Lore Text from the Padjal:

"The art now known as white magic dates back to the Fifth Astral Era. It was then that a brilliant young sorceress - for the first time in history - succeeded in channeling not merely her own life energy, but the aether that inhabits the very land itself. Her magic was that of destruction: black magic. The people of Amdapor felt this power was too great to be allowed to go unchecked, and so it was that white magic - the magic of healing and solace - was born. So it was that the forces of magic were brought into equilibrium, and civilization flourished.

 

But this era of peace and prosperity would prove short lived. War broke out, and the realm was thrown into chaos. The War of the Magi. To rain death and destruction on their foes, mages summoned forth greater and greater powers. The war raged on, until the aether dried, and the land itself could bear the burden no longer. So did the hubris of the magi bring forth the Sixth Umbral Era... and with it a mighty flood that swept away entire civilizations, leaving naught but ruin and suffering in its wake.

 

The survivors - what few there were - banded together. Vowing never again to repeat their mistake, white and black magic were declared forbidden arts, never to be practiced again. The Elementals of the forest, knowing that men could not be trusted to keep such vows, took action as well. The Twelveswood grew, swallowing the ruins of Amdapor, and the power of white magic was sealed away deep in the forest, far from the reach of mortals.

 

Ages passed, until five centuries ago, the Elementals at long last welcomed people back into the forest. So the nation of Gridania was founded, and my people - the Padjal - came into being, to serve as mediators between Elementals and those who would reside in their forest home. It is from the Elementals themselves that we inherited white magic."

-Raya-O-Senna

 

"White magic and conjury are close relations, the two are governed by the same laws. The former, however, places the utmost upon healing and protection and demands of its practitioners the greatest intimacy with the Elementals. On account of this, its use is granted only to those few who are deemed worthy. It is the sacred charge of the Padjal to ensure that the art survives, and in righteous hands."

-Raya-O-Senna

 

"Amdapor was not always thus afflicted. Indeed, the city once owed an age of prosperity to the benevolent art of white magic. But that was before the War of the Magi. It is told that the enemies of the Amdapori abandoned all caution in their pursuit of victory, and used their dark magicks to summon a king among demons. Though the mages of Amdapor eventually succeeded in imprisoning this fell creature, its recent resurgence speaks eloquently to the impermanence and unpredictability of arcane energies."

-E-Sumi-Yan

 

 

 

 

1. how is the practice of conjury different from the practices of succor (whether modern Padjali forms, or the old forms from Amdapor) exactly?

 

succor was forbidden because it was somehow misused (how, I wonder?) during the War of the Magi... so how is conjury different from white magic in its potential for misuse?

 

Firstly, the difference lies in the fact that Conjury and Succor are actually two distinctly different forms of magic. While governed by similar rules, Conjury was taught to Mankind by the Moogles of the Twelveswood in order to communicate with the Elementals, and Succor (White Magic) was gifted to Mankind by the Elementals in the time of Amdapor.

 

Conjurers, through meditation and communion with nature, borrow aether from their immediate environment and mold that aether into a physical manifestation of that nature. This communion with nature is what allows man to hear the Elementals - which are the spirits of nature. White Mages are given access to the Elementals Succor with the intention of healing the world and its denizens, man, animal, and plant. It draws directly from the Lifestream and is focused through the caster.

 

While it is never expressly stated in what way Succor was abused during the War of the Magi, we can assume that because the War took a great toll on Amdapor, the White Mages of the time period may have been forced to pervert the magic in order to keep up with the unlimited power of the Black Mages.

 

2. is conjury necessarily "weaker" than white magic?

 

I'd assume Padjal are generally much 'stronger' than the average Conjurer, and if so, is this because the elementals' gift of white magic, or is it an innate strength of white magic to have stronger healing potential?

 

The Padjal were a race birthed into Man by the Elementals themselves. The children are blessed with the succor, and it eventually alters their bodies as they age. These Padjal children are born Conjurers. It is possible to be a born Conjurer or Hearer and not be a Padjal child, just that Padjali children are born specifically for this purpose. So in a sense, yes, they are stronger.

 

Succor is the far more effective healing magic, as its sole purpose is to bring healing (succor) to Hydaelyn. Conjury, on the other hand, is not completely a healing magic. It is first and foremost a manipulation of nature - all of her aspects. While design changes made by the Battle Team in 1.20 that carried over into 2.0 have brushed the original lore deep under the rug, the Conjurers originally possessed a mastery over all six elements that composed the Elemental Wheel as described in Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements. Conjurers were capable of incredible destructive feats of elemental sorcery, including Flare, Tornado, Quake, Flood, Freeze, etc.

 

http://ffxivinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png[/img]

 

 

 

However, this magic could also be used to heal, not just to destroy. And that's what a majority of Conjurers focused on, but the magic of the Moogles isn't focused on healing like Succor is.

 

 

bonus: we see Y'shtola using something that to me resembles Holy in this ... but what is it? some fancy Sharlayan adaptation of Holy? or is it actually something else? does anyone even know the answer to that? is that more the territory of "headcanons"?

 

In short, we don't know for sure. There's been some... heated... speculation over the topic, but we're no closer to knowing beyond guesswork. We've known since the very first day of FFXIV Beta in 2010 that Y'shtola was an incredibly accomplished Conjurer. But we know very little about her background, as was made painfully evident by her parting words to Y'mhitra, her estranged sister in Gridania, who is also a Conjurer and student of the lost Allagan Summoning art.

 

 

Anyways, I hope this helps! ^^ Lemme know if you have more questions!

[Unnamed Mercenary]

1)

White Magic / Succor actually predates Conjury. If I'm remembering things correctly, Conjury was taught to people by Moogles -after- the destruction of Amdapor.

 

Both technically borrow aether from nature, but at different strengths. While Conjury is all about communicating with nature to provide balance, Succor is more about using the power of the Elementals to enact their will. (or something) I think Conjury is a little easier on the environment, but I don't know if this is explicitly stated. A good White Mage (like a Padjal) probably has much more ability to calm the forest than a Conjurer. (It helps that Padjal are from families with strong Conjurers. If it weren't for the whole Padjal and the MSQ Hero being the exception, I would imagine the cream of the crop Hearers would be next in line to get Elemental permission to use Succor.)

 

2)

They're umm...different? I would think at the end of the day, a CNJ and a WHM of otherwise equal ability/power would otherwise be fairly equal. If we set aside gameplay mechanics that were put on A Realm Reborn to enforce the DPS/Healer/Tank roles and instead look at the 1.0 skills when these were not as enforced, the 1.0 Conjurer was actually a pretty good damage dealer. By communing with different elementals and spirits, they had access to fire, ice and lightning spells, on top of their wind, water and earth. White mage was added into 1.0 at a later time, which makes things a little funky.

 

Y'shtola things:

The fancy protection spell Y'shtola uses so often in cutscenes used to be a CNJ skill in 1.0. It also sorta looks like a SCH sacred soil. Seeing how most of the Scions have abilities that don't quite line up with in-game mechanics, it might be easier to assume they're just special. ...maybe it's something she picked elsewhere.

 

edit: Sounsyy beat me to things.

[allgivenover]

One thing to add not mentioned so far:

 

Something not often picked up on is that Conjurer's wear off-white, grey, and in rare cases dark brown or green attire - though I don't think I've seen any Gridanian Conjurer's wearing the latter two - whereas Padjal (and possibly by extension all White Mages) are the only ones who wear that striking white color. 

 

Hearers wear blue or purple, with the two Padjal O-App-Pesi and E-Sumi-Yan being positively decked out in purple. I don't know why these two don't wear white, though I suspect it might be because they lead and teach the Conjurer's in Gridania.

 

I RP'd Rakka'li as a Hearer who often shirked his duties as he could only keep his Keeper wanderer/loner tendencies in check for so long. Though unfortunately I only had cause to have him wear his blue "Hearer" robes in very few scenes (and sometimes I just plain forgot to put them on). Later on he would wear dark browns and greens when wandering alone to blend in with the Twelveswood and to not be bothered by those looking for a Hearer.

 

So in summary,

Conjurer: muted earth tones, or off-white.

Hearer: Blue, with more purple the more higher ranking/more powerful you are.

Padjal - possibly all White Mages: White.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, the mighty Sounssy certainly covered it here: CNJ Attire - What the Robe Colors Mean

[Unnamed Mercenary]

One thing to add not mentioned so far:

 

Something not often picked up on is that Conjurer's wear off-white, grey, and in rare cases dark brown or green attire - though I don't think I've seen any Gridanian Conjurer's wearing the latter two - whereas Padjal (and possibly by extension all White Mages) are the only ones who wear that striking white color. 

 

Hearers wear blue or purple, with the two Padjal O-App-Pesi and E-Sumi-Yan being positively decked out in purple. I don't know why these two don't wear white, though I suspect it might be because they lead and teach the Conjurer's in Gridania.

 

I RP'd Rakka'li as a Hearer who often shirked his duties as he could only keep his Keeper wanderer/loner tendencies in check for so long. Though unfortunately I only had cause to have him wear his blue "Hearer" robes in very few scenes (and sometimes I just plain forgot to put them on). Later on he would wear dark browns and greens when wandering alone to blend in with the Twelveswood and to not be bothered by those looking for a Hearer.

 

So in summary,

Conjurer: muted earth tones, or off-white.

Hearer: Blue, with more purple the more higher ranking/more powerful you are.

White: Padjal - possibly all White Mages.

 

I remember Sounsyy cited some lore with quotes about what each of the colors meant. ...something to do with rank, if I'm remembering properly.

[allgivenover]

She linked it in her post and I missed it, that's what I get for skimming.

[Flickering Ember]

 

 

Succor is the far more effective healing magic, as its sole purpose is to bring healing (succor) to Hydaelyn. Conjury, on the other hand, is not completely a healing magic. It is first and foremost a manipulation of nature - all of her aspects. While design changes made by the Battle Team in 1.20 that carried over into 2.0 have brushed the original lore deep under the rug, the Conjurers originally possessed a mastery over all six elements that composed the Elemental Wheel as described in Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements. Conjurers were capable of incredible destructive feats of elemental sorcery, including Flare, Tornado, Quake, Flood, Freeze, etc.

 

http://ffxivinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png[/img]

 

 

 

However, this magic could also be used to heal, not just to destroy. And that's what a majority of Conjurers focused on, but the magic of the Moogles isn't focused on healing like Succor is.

 

 

 

Is there a lore explanation for why conjurers used to be able to use all elements but can now only use three? Do people RP as still being able to use them or do they RP as fire, lightning, and ice being closed off to them? Is it something people completely regard as a game mechanics thing or do people generally think that the elements conjurers have in game is what they get?

[allgivenover]

I can't say for sure, but due to the 2.0 Conjurer quests only ever teaching you about the wind, water, and earth elements I suspect it has been retconned. The extent of elemental magic that Conjurers are now able to even cross class is Blizzard II (water element? anyway...), we used to have access to Thunder but the devs decided that it was too much DPS for us and took it away. =/

 

Anytime I had Rakka'li manipulate fire magics I sold it as basic thaumaturgy, and very weak at that.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

 

 

Succor is the far more effective healing magic, as its sole purpose is to bring healing (succor) to Hydaelyn. Conjury, on the other hand, is not completely a healing magic. It is first and foremost a manipulation of nature - all of her aspects. While design changes made by the Battle Team in 1.20 that carried over into 2.0 have brushed the original lore deep under the rug, the Conjurers originally possessed a mastery over all six elements that composed the Elemental Wheel as described in Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements. Conjurers were capable of incredible destructive feats of elemental sorcery, including Flare, Tornado, Quake, Flood, Freeze, etc.

 

http://ffxivinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png[/img]

 

 

 

 

However, this magic could also be used to heal, not just to destroy. And that's what a majority of Conjurers focused on, but the magic of the Moogles isn't focused on healing like Succor is.

 

 

 

Is there a lore explanation for why conjurers used to be able to use all elements but can now only use three? Do people RP as still being able to use them or do they RP as fire, lightning, and ice being closed off to them? Is it something people completely regard as a game mechanics thing or do people generally think that the elements conjurers have in game is what they get?

 

The battle team said "CNJ is now Healer and THM is now DPS". ...and then they moved around skills until everything looks more "iconic" for WHM and BLM for later.

 

This does cause a divide though. Do we go with "FFXIV Original Lore" skills or "FFXIV What's-in-the-game" skills? Personally, I still kinda stick to the older stuff, since SE didn't outright retcon it. They just hoped we never asked (Las Vegas Lore Panel). It'd ultimately depend on the RPer and the people they RP with to decide such. ...it wouldn't make sense for a conjurer who used to be able to cast fire to just simply not be able to because the game got a new battle system, right? To me, that's overwriting lore with game mechanics, which seems silly.

[Flickering Ember]

 

 

Succor is the far more effective healing magic, as its sole purpose is to bring healing (succor) to Hydaelyn. Conjury, on the other hand, is not completely a healing magic. It is first and foremost a manipulation of nature - all of her aspects. While design changes made by the Battle Team in 1.20 that carried over into 2.0 have brushed the original lore deep under the rug, the Conjurers originally possessed a mastery over all six elements that composed the Elemental Wheel as described in Essences and Permutations - A Treatise of the Six Elements. Conjurers were capable of incredible destructive feats of elemental sorcery, including Flare, Tornado, Quake, Flood, Freeze, etc.

 

http://ffxivinfo.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/ffxiv-elemental-wheel-key1.png[/img]

 

 

 

 

 

However, this magic could also be used to heal, not just to destroy. And that's what a majority of Conjurers focused on, but the magic of the Moogles isn't focused on healing like Succor is.

 

 

 

Is there a lore explanation for why conjurers used to be able to use all elements but can now only use three? Do people RP as still being able to use them or do they RP as fire, lightning, and ice being closed off to them? Is it something people completely regard as a game mechanics thing or do people generally think that the elements conjurers have in game is what they get?

 

The battle team said "CNJ is now Healer and THM is now DPS". ...and then they moved around skills until everything looks more "iconic" for WHM and BLM for later.

 

This does cause a divide though. Do we go with "FFXIV Original Lore" skills or "FFXIV What's-in-the-game" skills? Personally, I still kinda stick to the older stuff, since SE didn't outright retcon it. They just hoped we never asked (Las Vegas Lore Panel). It'd ultimately depend on the RPer and the people they RP with to decide such. ...it wouldn't make sense for a conjurer who used to be able to cast fire to just simply not be able to because the game got a new battle system, right? To me, that's overwriting lore with game mechanics, which seems silly.

 

This is the route I take as well. There is so much more lore with 1.0 in the picture, even for just one hyper-focused topic like this. That, and the point of conjury seems to lie with having a connection with the Elementals. 

 

Fire is definitely a traditional element. Lightning and ice, less so traditionally but as far as FF games go, they are staple elements as well. It seems weird for those things not to be considered 'elements.'

[Gone.]

I won't get into 1.0 or lore panels; I wasn't here for them, nor do I consider them particularly important, not when the former has largely been retconned on an official level and the latter had no real involvement with the Japanese writing team.

 

What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.

 

To put it simply: white magic is the raw, traditional root. Conjury is the simplified, common branch.

 

The principles are the same as are the methods and there's plenty of crossover when it comes to spell selection; this shouldn't come as a surprise when the lineage is directly related. What does separate them, however, is a significant difference in power and the discipline required to keep that in check.

 

White magic can pull someone away from the brink of death, but it can also steal that very life away in little more than a heartbeat. Gone unchecked and it can wreak havoc on Hydaelyn in a short amount of time (see: war between black and white mages). This is why the Padjali are born and raised to protect it; a living, breathing filter to prevent any potential misuse.

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

Now, from there, we have Conjury, strained down into something that, while still having the potential to be misused as shown in the CNJ quest-line, is 'safe' enough for the common Eorzean population to practice without the stringent ruleset that needs to be in place for its primordial ancestor.

 

Is there a lore explanation for why conjurers used to be able to use all elements but can now only use three? Do people RP as still being able to use them or do they RP as fire, lightning, and ice being closed off to them? Is it something people completely regard as a game mechanics thing or do people generally think that the elements conjurers have in game is what they get?

 

I can't speak with certainty as I didn't pick the game up until several months ago, but personally I just say Vetiver studied a bit of minor thaumaturgy to better understand all six elements on a basic level. Two different schools of magic that happen to balance each other out. Also a fun way to integrate my obligatory THM levels for swiftcast.

[LiadansWhisper]

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

Now, from there, we have Conjury, strained down into something that, while still having the potential to be misused as shown in the CNJ quest-line, is 'safe' enough for the common Eorzean population to practice without the stringent ruleset that needs to be in place for its primordial ancestor.

 

Not...exactly.  I'll put it to you this way - if you're looking at two practitioners of magic, and one has a natural, innate, inborn talent at the magic they are using in addition to intense study in the discipline, and the other one only knows how to use the magic because of intense hours of study, who do you honestly think is gonna win?

 

I can't speak with certainty as I didn't pick the game up until several months ago, but personally I just say Vetiver studied a bit of minor thaumaturgy to better understand all six elements on a basic level. Two different schools of magic that happen to balance each other out. Also a fun way to integrate my obligatory THM levels for swiftcast.

 

Except that THM had way more to do with the dead and Nald'thal in the original incarnation, which I honestly find far more interesting than the current elemental-based version.

 

P.S. I don't think it would actually be realistic for the vast majority of Conjurers to be able to misuse Conjury the way that Selphie did. The only reason why she was able to do so is that she was a natural-born Conjurer (i.e. a Hearer).

[Sounsyy]

Is there a lore explanation for why conjurers used to be able to use all elements but can now only use three? Do people RP as still being able to use them or do they RP as fire, lightning, and ice being closed off to them? Is it something people completely regard as a game mechanics thing or do people generally think that the elements conjurers have in game is what they get?

 

I'll quote myself from this thread on the topic for expediency:

 

Is there any lore to explain why Conjurers can't cast these spells any more? Why there was such a shift?

It was a complete retcon acknowledged by Fernehalwes at the Las Vegas Lore Panel. The Battle Team came to the lore team and told them that they were making CNJ into healer and THM into damage and splitting the elemental wheel between the two. Lore Team said that wasn't possible in lore, but weren't allowed a say in the final revision of 2.0 class mechanics. SO.

 

1.0 Class mechanics actually fall in line with Eorzean Lore. 2.0 Classes... not so much. There is not (and according to Fernehalwes) never will be any lore to substantiate the change. They just swept it under the rug and hoped players wouldn't notice. That said, if you want your CNJ to have full access to the Elemental Wheel like it did in 1.0, go for it. The lore actually supports it, despite 2.0 mechanics not supporting it. The 2.0 Quest, "The Greatest Stories Never Told" actually references the 1.0 Conjury Elemental Wheel described in the book Essences and Permutations: A Treatise of the Six Elements. Meaning the lore is still canon and there, even if mechanics choose not to follow it.

 

So while there was a fairly big cover-over of the lore... the lore was not retconned completely, because in 2.2(?) they added in a Lore Quest called "The Greatest Stories Never Told" and in it they explicitly reference Essences and Permutations and the Conjurer's complete Elemental Wheel. So... clearly the lore team has not forgotten, even if game mechanics have.

[allgivenover]

The Greatest Story Never Told doesn't give us the text for Essence and Permutations though, at least I don't recall it doing so. It's possible that the text itself is no longer about elements as they pertain to Conjurers only.

[Warren Castille]

What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

I'm confused. Isn't that just an assumption on your part?

[Gegenji]

What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

I'm confused. Isn't that just an assumption on your part?

 

It's not that bad of an assumption to make, though. If White Magic is stronger than straight Conjury, then it would make sense that those that can use it (Padjal, WoL) would be stronger than a Conjurer.

[Warren Castille]

What I can do, however, is answer your questions based off the perspective I gained from extrapolating what the game itself has given us to work with as that is, in my opinion, the only source that should take any real precedent in our community today.

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

I'm confused. Isn't that just an assumption on your part?

 

It's not that bad of an assumption to make, though. If White Magic is stronger than straight Conjury, then it would make sense that those that can use it (Padjal, WoL) would be stronger than a Conjurer.

 

That is the exact opposite of what she's saying, though.

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it.

 

The magical elemental-born children are being written off as mere mortals.

[Gegenji]

Oh, derp. I can read.

 

Still, while they might be magically more powerful, I still think we could possibly consider them "mere mortals." In the sense that they ARE mortal (and thus can die), and born of Man thus possessing Man's trappings and failings. Which makes me wonder if we might ever see a "fallen" or "evil" Padjal (perhaps that has something to do with the "sinister means" to gain access to Succor that was mentioned?).

 

Fallibility and power aren't intrinsically linked, though. Many main villains are powerful but have their failings which cause them to ultimately lose in the end, after all.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Oh, derp. I can read.

 

Still, while they might be magically more powerful, I still think we could possibly consider them "mere mortals." In the sense that they ARE mortal (and thus can die), and born of Man thus possessing Man's trappings and failings. Which makes me wonder if we might ever see a "fallen" or "evil" Padjal (perhaps that has something to do with the "sinister means" to gain access to Succor that was mentioned?).

 

Fallibility and power aren't intrinsically linked, though. Many main villains are powerful but have their failings which cause them to ultimately lose in the end, after all.

 

A fallen or excommunicated Padjal could be very interesting. ...but in such an event, they would likely have lost their Elemental-granted usage of Succor.

 

 

I won't get into 1.0 or lore panels; I wasn't here for them, nor do I consider them particularly important, not when the former has largely been retconned on an official level and the latter had no real involvement with the Japanese writing team.

 

Except...there is not a super-special "Japanese writing team". Just like there's no "original Japanese script" for the game. The lore and localization teams work together to create the dialogue and lore in the game. Something I find critically important about the lore panels that we're given. Ignoring them is like saying "Well, I don't watch the news or read the newspaper, so I don't find ______ particularly important." ...that's just...OK. Fine. People can play what they want.

 

To put it simply: white magic is the raw, traditional root. Conjury is the simplified, common branch.

 

...but it isn't. Conjury was taught to man by the Moogles. While their methods are similar, they are not the same kind of magic at all. I can use matches and a lighter to make a fire. They both burn fuel to produce a flame. How they are ignited and how that fuel burns (and how strong) are quite different.

 

 

Are Padjali stronger? I sincerely doubt it. They're nothing more than Hyur with what amounts to as a glorified genetic deviation, mortal as anyone else and thus equally as fallible. We just haven't been given any real examples in-game yet.

 

Padjal are born Hyur or Elezen, from what we've seen in-game in 2.0. A-Towa Cant was an Elezen. While we haven't seen any, I could imagine it's not impossible for the other races to be made into Padjal either. The only requirements that the game has given is that:

1) Child/Teen

2) Likely born in Gridania/The Black Shroud

3) Powerful Conjurer (like a Hearer) -> an already strong connection with nature and the forest

[SayonaraRevival]

"fallen / evil / excommunicated Padjal" whoops I definitely have a character like that on my padjal filled rp tumblr--

 

anyway, reading these are super fascinating, though I'm not entirely sure how to balance the lore of 1.0 and the elemental wheel with the present divisions, aka the retcon in place...

 

I can think of a few potential excuses IC, but are any of them even remotely valid? I mean, we don't see snow or fire much in the Twelveswood, probably a little lightning though -- whereas earth, air, and water are everywhere. the excuse I'd imagine would be "the fire/ice/lightning elementals are not as strong any more since the Calamity".

 

I just don't really feel comfortable assuming things about the lore to integrate into RP, which is probably why I'm not RPing all that much in-game lately. )':

 

 

from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.

 

-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).

 

I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?

[Gegenji]

from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.

 

-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).

 

I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?

 

Correct. Conjury is Moogles teaching people how to speak to the elements to draw on their power to heal or throw rocks at people. Succor is a gift from the Elementals to draw directly from the lifestream to heal or cast Holy on people.

 

Also, there's plenty of Lightning in the Twelveswood. Remember, Ramuh's followers are there!

[Unnamed Mercenary]

"fallen / evil / excommunicated Padjal" whoops I definitely have a character like that on my padjal filled rp tumblr--

 

anyway, reading these are super fascinating, though I'm not entirely sure how to balance the lore of 1.0 and the elemental wheel with the present divisions, aka the retcon in place...

 

I can think of a few potential excuses IC, but are any of them even remotely valid? I mean, we don't see snow or fire much in the Twelveswood, probably a little lightning though -- whereas earth, air, and water are everywhere. the excuse I'd imagine would be "the fire/ice/lightning elementals are not as strong any more since the Calamity".

 

I just don't really feel comfortable assuming things about the lore to integrate into RP, which is probably why I'm not RPing all that much in-game lately. )':

 

 

from what I've read, conjury is a moogle-taught art, and isn't completely focused on healing; seems to have enough offensive capability to keep the conjurer safe from harm in most situations.

 

-- while succor, on the other hand, is much more direct and powerful healing, drawing from the planet's aether (lifestream).

 

I am trying to reword things and understand fully; are these understandings correct?

 

I find the easiest way to balance what had been and what is now is to split the lore from the battle system. Since the game didn't enforce Healer/Tank/DPS roles back then, each class kinda had a mix and match of skills. (PGL and LNC could tank, MRD was a really good DPS, CNJ/THM healed/dpsed sorta, etc). If it makes a good story, I'd say go for it!

 

One explanation for the Twelveswood could be that after the Calamity, many of the Elementals were weakened. Maybe the ones that handled fire, ice and lightning were weakened more than the ones that handled earth, air and water. But conjury isn't just limited to the Shroud. Maybe conjurers in Thanalan have an easier time using fire-based spells? Or maybe those in Coethas now (since it used to be lush and green) have a better affinity with ice? I should note that there'sa difference between an Elemental and an elemental though. Elementals are named entities with some form of thought and consciousness. (And sorta look like faries). The lower-case elementals are more like a mass of aspected aether that's gained a limited consciousness, which is why their cores are crystals.

 

With any RP, assumptions have to be made. I'd say find a group of people with a similar mindset and work towards RPing with them! (I haven't forgotten our one scene where we never even exchanged names lol).

 

Pre-calamity (so before the battle system was modified to reflect dedicated roles), conjurers had a lot more offensive skills. Like 2.0, they communed with nature and borrowed power. So a Fire Elemental would help a conjurer use fire magic, and so forth. I'll link a few lists of abilities as they changed. It's got the original 1.0 stuff (probably the most rooted in lore), 1.20 changes (when Yoshi-P took over and made classes more iconic) and 1.21 (when jobs were introduced into the game, which is where it stayed until 1.23b when the servers were turned off).

 

FFXIV 1.0 Skills

FFXIV 1.20 Changes

FFXIV 1.21 Job Additions

 

Hopefully these help a bit! I came on around the 1.20 days, so I had a few glimpses of skills, but SE was already making quite a few changes by then. (The game mostly ran on my computer?)

[ArmachiA]

^ I actually like this interpretation

 

Koji is deeply deeply involved in the Japanese side and the Localization side of lore, to ignore him because he's not Japanese or whatever blows my mind. He's the reason a lot of lore even exists in the game (Nald'Thal being 2 separate yet one god? All him, for instance)

 

Honestly, there doesn't seem to be much of a retcon lore wise between THM and CNJ. Conjurer still talks about all the elements (Though handwaving the ones now given to THM) and THM's has absolutely nothing to do with Elements, choosing a storyline based around the void. It's been REALLY weird from a lore stand point, since nothing was technically retconned from 1.0 (When there were no super special jobs). To me, if people want to still use the 1.0 lore there's nothing stopping them, and it's perfectly fine to do so - it's just so odd considering the mechanics are al different-y. Lore still exists, just no access to them game wise.

[Aduu Avagnar]

also, the elemental wheel is still mentioned in game, as per the Greatest Story Never Told.

[Oats McGoats]

I actually had a question myself about Conjury, if I can ask here! ^^;

 

This may seem like a silly comparison--still new to the lore in this game. But do Conjurer's work similar to Avatar's benders (stay with me) in that they can only borrow aether to bend elements that are physically around them?

 

For example, say Y'shtola is on an airship being attacked. Could she summon a hunk of rock to knock an attacker off the side, even though there is no real rock around to use? Similarly, could she summon a blast of water to knock someone against a wall while inside a cave, even if there is no huge source of water nearby? Yes, caves are damp and there would be water in the earth, but it seems pretty impressive to be able to gather all of that into a 30+ gallon smackdown in a matter of a split-second, hehe.

 

Alternatively, I think I read something where Conjurers (and Thaums for that matter) shape the borrowed (or snatched for Thaums) aether into the form of the actual elements for their attacks, not actually using the physical matter around them...

 

Which one is it? And sorry for making a comparison to a completely unrelated show, hehe. I know Hydaelyn casting is compleeeeetely different from bending, it was just an easy example to convey the idea.