Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Naunet]

I... really don't think that locking astrologian, dark knight, and machinist behind a 50 level and MSQ grind on a different class is "what makes FFXIV successful". At all. There is nothing about buying a game and an expac and expecting to have access to all the classes in said game that is "like a F2P game".

 

You mischaracterize arguments so much, I am starting to think you're only in here to troll. The aggression in your posts certainly suggests such.

[111]

I... really don't think that locking astrologian, dark knight, and machinist behind a 50 level and MSQ grind on a different class is "what makes FFXIV successful". At all. There is nothing about buying a game and an expac and expecting to have access to all the classes in said game that is "like a F2P game".

 

You mischaracterize arguments so much, I am starting to think you're only in here to troll. The aggression in your posts certainly suggests such.

 

You may not think that, but I do. If someone isn't willing to to put in the effort they shouldn't play the expansion, let alone the base game.

 

The developers seem to 100% agree with this assessment, which is why they're doing it this way. You may not like this philosophy, but life isn't fair. As I said there are other games which do well financially with the 'Give players what they want' model, and they're all free to play.

 

I don't appreciate being called a troll for not agreeing with you. Is everyone who disagrees with you a troll?

[shotgunbadger]

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

 

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

 

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

 

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

 

I think lots of other MMOs have done what you say and they've all been forced to go Free to Play.

 

Do you have a counter example of a subscription MMO that has done the things you suggest and been successful?

 

I could name a dozen or more who have done thing things you've said and gone f2p.

 

I would enjoy if you could bring even one statistic or piece of evidence forward that supports your view besides blind conjecture and anecdote. There are lots of other MMOs that do what you say, so why not just enjoy those instead of saying this one should change?

 

Well ok now we're just gonna insult eachother because even though I said over and over I like this game and think this one thing is a poor choice, I clearly am unhappy with the entire game. That's a cool and adult way to talk about things, you are an awesome person.

 

Most MMOs that go f2p go long before their first expansions, can YOU point to an MMO that was going along just fine, released an expansion that...I don't know apparently you're butthurt because I don't like the classes all being level cap only so I guess 'added a class that you can make at creation' is the proper analogy for other MMOs? And then after that expansion suddenly their numbers fell like rocks for reasons and they had to go F2P? Please, name one of the dozen you have on file because I can't think of one.

 

And no for the record I won't be leaving FFXIV, as I said in I think all my other posts in this thread, I really like this game despite this one annoyance. Ya know, because you can like and enjoy something despite thinking one thing it does isn't great.

[Aya]

People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.

Mischaracterize much?  Seriously Nat.

[111]

People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.

Mischaracterize much?  Seriously Nat.

 

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

 

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

 

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

[Aaron]

Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question. 

 

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right?  Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac? 

 

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

[Aya]

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

 

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

 

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

For one: you're conflating classes with content.  For two, you're conflating "work their way up to content" with "put in hours of tedious effort on old level 50 MSQ stuff."   Its a matter of wanting to be able to play the current game, not the two year old version of the game for six months in order to catch up.  That's an entirely fair expectation for the purchase of the game and its most recent expansion.  It is not an expectation of buying the game, suddenly being gifted a maximum level character of the desired class, and geared to the point of being able to clear raid content.  

 

How many MMORPGs have actually required full completion of the previous expansion to touch the new one?  That is a genuine question since I am entirely unaware of any (but my experience in MMO's is not all that expansive).

[shotgunbadger]

Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question. 

 

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right?  Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac? 

 

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

 

Well for me I'm hardly 'hurt', but I bought it because A) at the time the only info was that you needed to complete the main story in general so I figured that was a 'yea no duh to do the Ishgard stuff you gotta get there', and B) despite apparently being a big entitled baby who secretly hates this game I do plan on playing it and getting there so might as well, and C) I wanted to support the company that made one of the few MMOs I enjoy and wanted to help make sure the expansion is seen as a success.

[Gegenji]

People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.

Mischaracterize much?  Seriously Nat.

 

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

 

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

 

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

 

Personally, I'm not against having to do things to gain access to the new jobs. My issue is with how much is have to be done to unlock a level 30 job. My - continued - opinion on the matter is that it would not hurt to have the new jobs available to pick up at level 30 or 40.

 

So, you would still have to put in effort to get to those new classes in the expansion (i.e. getting a class to 30/40), but it would be a more reasonable amount than leveling a class to 50 and going through the entirety of the MSQ up to that point. Which is quite a lot of post-hitting-50 content and gear check choke-points (which will hopefully be helped by the new gear coming out?). Or, alternately, have the job you get after going through that be higher level... but that would likely conflict with the little job quest arcs.

[111]

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

 

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

 

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

For one: you're conflating classes with content.  For two, you're conflating "work their way up to content" with "put in hours of tedious effort on old level 50 MSQ stuff."   Its a matter of wanting to be able to play the current game, not the two year old version of the game for six months in order to catch up.  That's an entirely fair expectation for the purchase of the game and its most recent expansion.  It is not an expectation of buying the game, suddenly being gifted a maximum level character of the desired class, and geared to the point of being able to clear raid content.  

 

How many MMORPGs have actually required full completion of the previous expansion to touch the new one?  That is a genuine question since I am entirely unaware of any (but my experience in MMO's is not all that expansive).

 

So yes, I was right, as I said, people don't want to have to complete the 2.0 stuff for heavensward. They think purchasing the game should give them access.

 

I never said it wasn't tedious. Nothing in that paragraph contests anything I said, it just a much more inefficient way of saying:

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

[Steel Wolf]

Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question. 

 

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right?  Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac? 

 

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

 

Consider the advertisments and overall press to secure returning or new players and you'll perhaps see the issue. If the person hears or reads about XIV getting a new expansion without first having found out the expansion's content is locked behind a full storyline, the reveal of that truth will likely not go over well.

 

I assume this is a thing that will happen by virtue of the fact that they're selling a "complete edition" of the game as well as my own personal experience in a service industry where people see an offer and read only the big letters instead of the full offer's details.

[111]

 

Personally, I'm not against having to do things to gain access to the new jobs. My issue is with how much is have to be done to unlock a level 30 job. My - continued - opinion on the matter is that it would not hurt to have the new jobs available to pick up at level 30 or 40.

 

So, you would still have to put in effort to get to those new classes in the expansion (i.e. getting a class to 30/40), but it would be a more reasonable amount than leveling a class to 50 and going through the entirety of the MSQ up to that point. Which is quite a lot of post-hitting-50 content and gear check choke-points (which will hopefully be helped by the new gear coming out?). Or, alternately, have the job you get after going through that be higher level... but that would likely conflict with the little job quest arcs.

 

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

[BroodingFicus]

People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them. 

Mischaracterize much?  Seriously Nat.

 

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

 

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so. 

 

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

 

 

 

From what I have seen, myself included, most people in this thread would like the jobs to remain consistent with the already established formula for ffxiv. As in have them acquired at level 30. Everyone here thus far seems perfectly willing to complete the 2.0 content from that point on but they would like to do so as the classes they wish to be. Not everyone feels this way, especially those who plan to simply level it on an existing character and are not effected by needing to redo the whole story again to make an Au Ra/are not new and needing to level 1-50 and complete all story content as a class they do not desire. 

 

If you do not believe the current lock out to be an issue that is fine obviously. It is a lot of work to level through the MSQ and to 50. I can speak to this seeing as I have the unfortunate pleasure of enjoying alts. Gate locking the jobs however makes this chore even worse because you are forced to undertake a huge time sink as a class you don't want in order to even begin working toward having an AST etc.

[Aaron]

Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question. 

 

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right?  Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac? 

 

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

 

Well for me I'm hardly 'hurt', but I bought it because A) at the time the only info was that you needed to complete the main story in general so I figured that was a 'yea no duh to do the Ishgard stuff you gotta get there', and B) despite apparently being a big entitled baby who secretly hates this game I do plan on playing it and getting there so might as well, and C) I wanted to support the company that made one of the few MMOs I enjoy and wanted to help make sure the expansion is seen as a success.

Oh I see. I can understand that, to my knowledge other stuff did get thrown in after as a requirement. 

 

But yeah I hardly really see your point coming from a negative standpoint. Sometimes I don't like how my fries are shaped and need to vent about it lol.

 

But in the end from a neutral standpoint at this point in time I highly doubt the requirements will change. We should all probably just accept it.

 

Not referring to you of course!

[Aya]

I think leveling requirements are part of the expected standard package for an MMO.  People expect to have to level to unlock stuff (whether it be mounts, higher end classes, or dungeons).  What people don't expect is have to complete old content, i.e. the MSQ.  That's a new thing, and its a very heavy-weight one behind which every expected feature of an MMO is locked. 

 

Thinking that is a terrible design decision (especially with regards to trying to attract new players) is not tantamount to thinking that everything in the game should be opened and accessible upon receipt of a sum of money.  Nat, I think your wording is intentionally incendiary and that's disappointing but not really unexpected.

[shotgunbadger]

Oh I've accepted, I hardly expect SE to change it, that would probably be literally impossible to do just a hair ahead of a week from launch. Not a fan of it, but yea I've accepted that's how those three jobs work, and that's fine, lucky for me the ideas I have for an expansion alt all had other jobs as options along with the expansion ones so I can just get that done.

[Gegenji]

 

Personally, I'm not against having to do things to gain access to the new jobs. My issue is with how much is have to be done to unlock a level 30 job. My - continued - opinion on the matter is that it would not hurt to have the new jobs available to pick up at level 30 or 40.

 

So, you would still have to put in effort to get to those new classes in the expansion (i.e. getting a class to 30/40), but it would be a more reasonable amount than leveling a class to 50 and going through the entirety of the MSQ up to that point. Which is quite a lot of post-hitting-50 content and gear check choke-points (which will hopefully be helped by the new gear coming out?). Or, alternately, have the job you get after going through that be higher level... but that would likely conflict with the little job quest arcs.

 

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

Right, and I am wondering if it was necessary to have them locked into the new areas. Dragoons are, lore-wise, Ishgardian only as well. And yet the WoL can start his training to be one as a level 30 Lancer as long as he meets the sub-class requirement out in Coerthas. So, there's precedence to have the other "Ishgardian" jobs outside the walls too.

 

 I think I mentioned even mentioned this before in this very thread... but I could easily see having the AST trainer at the Observatorium, the MCH trainer in Limsa (where I totally thought the trainer was going to be to begin with) or perhaps at the Ironworks in the Toll, and DRK at Dragonhead or something. These are higher level areas as well (not counting the Limsa one), so needing to reach 40 or the like to head there and pick them up would also make some  sense too.

 

Or have it at level 30 like the rest and watch players make a mad dash on chocobo-back to the cities to pick up their shiny new jobs.

[Telluride]

I hate to have to rehash a point, but I think we'd see much less cause for complaint if SE's promotional material - the videos and Official Announcements, not just forum posts (which aren't gonna be sen by anyone who doesn't have the game already) - specified or had a disclaimer that the new content required completion of the MSQ.

 

If they HAVE done so, please link it. I sincerely have simply not seen any yet.

 

If they are using flying mounts and the new classes as lures, but not revealing to a potential buying audience of the leveling requirement in their own promotional material - the stuff specifically put out there to drum up preorders and hype - then SE deserves the criticism for what may be a legitimate practice, but remains a shady one, a bait-and-switch proposal for anyone who might NOT have the game but might want to fly dragons, throw tarot cards or wield shotguns from day one.

 

People want to play the classes they're paying for, and fly like they are paying for.

 

So, to address the questions:

 

Aaron: Sure, it will save hurt emotions, but it's kind of a jerk move to make you pay for the major promotional offerings in the first place, and then add more old-content slog to the new stuff after. It's a valid move, and it fits SE's general policy about their game, of which we here are aware, but a lot of people still take exception to gating. Whether they SHOULD is why we have this thread.

 

Nat: People want to feel like they are getting what they paid for, and not have to REPEAT content they've already done to get it. The new classes start at 30, right? That means you have 20 levels of pretty much The Same Thing We've Already Done That SE Wants Us To Do Again, to get the new classes to the new areas. You may be Totally Cool with that, but why should I wade through ANY old content if I can't just start at level one as a new player?

 

It's a goofy, goofy design choice. You can't have the new classes at level one, so new players can't have them, and you can't start one at 50, or GET one to the New Stuff without 20 levels of RE-grind. SE is messing with BOTH new players and veteran players alike with this "Strange Design Choice", which is what the thread is about.

[shotgunbadger]

Yea to be honest if there's one thing that really caused this bothersome feeling I had about it it's the fact that Dragoons, a super Ishgard only cultural job, have been accessible since day 1 with all the other normal jobs. There's already precedence for this closed off society to have some slivers that got loose, so the excuse of 'well these all come from Ishgard' feels hollow.

[Melkire]

I hate to have to rehash a point, but I think we'd see much less cause for complaint if SE's promotional material - the videos and Official Announcements, not just forum posts (which aren't gonna be sen by anyone who doesn't have the game already) - specified or had a disclaimer that the new content required completion of the MSQ.

 

If they HAVE done so, please link it. I sincerely have simply not seen any yet.

 

Early Access

 

Pre-order FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward to play the game ahead of the official launch!

 

* Early access is scheduled to start on Friday, June 19, 2015. Please note that there is a possibility of maintenance taking place during the early access period.

* In order to enjoy the benefits of early access to Heavensward content, you need to be playing FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn and have made sufficient progress in the main scenario. As such, early access will not be available to new players who pre-order the FINAL FANTASY XIV Online all-in-one bundle and have yet to begin their adventures.

* A FINAL FANTASY XIV service account is required to participate in early access.

* Details will be made available when pre-order codes are distributed.

 

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/heavensward/#product_area

[BroodingFicus]

Oh I've accepted, I hardly expect SE to change it, that would probably be literally impossible to do just a hair ahead of a week from launch. Not a fan of it, but yea I've accepted that's how those three jobs work, and that's fine, lucky for me the ideas I have for an expansion alt all had other jobs as options along with the expansion ones so I can just get that done.

 

Yeah. Its accepted. It isn't changing now. However, as was pointed out, this is a P2P game. I'm a huge supporter of this vs F2P but it also means they are held to higher standards and are not above criticism. Especially when the requirements being dropped on you are hugely time consuming and pointless. Everyone here supports the game and pays for their monthly subscription. Any time spent miserable for trivial reasons is a waste of money invested for the player. This discussion is not reserved to the RPC and I think it will be seen more after newer players realize it. As it should. Maybe it will change nothing and it will always be this way. Maybe not but if no one questioned design choices we would be left with a bunch of generic MMO's. 

 

What is great about this thread is people are suggesting good alternatives. It isn't simply complaining. The issue has been proven as something easily solved without damaging anyone else's experience. If any one here has hostility against that kind of talk, do take it elsewhere.

[Telluride]

I hate to have to rehash a point, but I think we'd see much less cause for complaint if SE's promotional material - the videos and Official Announcements, not just forum posts (which aren't gonna be sen by anyone who doesn't have the game already) - specified or had a disclaimer that the new content required completion of the MSQ.

 

If they HAVE done so, please link it. I sincerely have simply not seen any yet.

 

Early Access

 

Pre-order FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward to play the game ahead of the official launch!

 

* Early access is scheduled to start on Friday, June 19, 2015. Please note that there is a possibility of maintenance taking place during the early access period.

* In order to enjoy the benefits of early access to Heavensward content, you need to be playing FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn and have made sufficient progress in the main scenario. As such, early access will not be available to new players who pre-order the FINAL FANTASY XIV Online all-in-one bundle and have yet to begin their adventures.

* A FINAL FANTASY XIV service account is required to participate in early access.

* Details will be made available when pre-order codes are distributed.

 

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/heavensward/#product_area

 

 

Ah! Then I will rehash my stance, having been presented with the specific information I asked for. They ARE giving people some decent bits of warning. I still think "Sufficient progress" is a bit vague here, perhaps on purpose, but well played, Melkire.

[Aaron]

I hate to have to rehash a point, but I think we'd see much less cause for complaint if SE's promotional material - the videos and Official Announcements, not just forum posts (which aren't gonna be sen by anyone who doesn't have the game already) - specified or had a disclaimer that the new content required completion of the MSQ.

 

If they HAVE done so, please link it. I sincerely have simply not seen any yet.

 

Early Access

 

Pre-order FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward to play the game ahead of the official launch!

 

* Early access is scheduled to start on Friday, June 19, 2015. Please note that there is a possibility of maintenance taking place during the early access period.

* In order to enjoy the benefits of early access to Heavensward content, you need to be playing FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn and have made sufficient progress in the main scenario. As such, early access will not be available to new players who pre-order the FINAL FANTASY XIV Online all-in-one bundle and have yet to begin their adventures.

* A FINAL FANTASY XIV service account is required to participate in early access.

* Details will be made available when pre-order codes are distributed.

 

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/heavensward/#product_area

In the start up menu interface of XIV at one point it also said 2.55 needed to be done.

[Kage]

Or you could take the talk where it would actually make a difference like you so want? None of us here can do a damned thing. Reddit. Official forums. You seem to like these workable solutions so why not actually put your mouths to where it would actually make a difference? They read reddit. They read the official forums. Put the money where you want it. Put the talk where it will get you somewhere.

[BroodingFicus]

I hate to have to rehash a point, but I think we'd see much less cause for complaint if SE's promotional material - the videos and Official Announcements, not just forum posts (which aren't gonna be sen by anyone who doesn't have the game already) - specified or had a disclaimer that the new content required completion of the MSQ.

 

If they HAVE done so, please link it. I sincerely have simply not seen any yet.

 

Early Access

 

Pre-order FINAL FANTASY XIV: Heavensward to play the game ahead of the official launch!

 

* Early access is scheduled to start on Friday, June 19, 2015. Please note that there is a possibility of maintenance taking place during the early access period.

* In order to enjoy the benefits of early access to Heavensward content, you need to be playing FINAL FANTASY XIV: A Realm Reborn and have made sufficient progress in the main scenario. As such, early access will not be available to new players who pre-order the FINAL FANTASY XIV Online all-in-one bundle and have yet to begin their adventures.

* A FINAL FANTASY XIV service account is required to participate in early access.

* Details will be made available when pre-order codes are distributed.

 

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/heavensward/#product_area

 

 

Ah! Then I will rehash my stance, having been presented with the specific information I asked for. They ARE giving people some decent bits of warning. I still think "Sufficient progress" is a bit vague here, perhaps on purpose, but well played, Melkire.

 

Yeah they are giving some warning. Probably could be done a bit better going by the amount of people who didn't notice it . I think I figured it out after the last live letter when I actually went looking for the information directly. Up until then I thought 30 was the only requirement.