FFXIV Lore Q/A

[allgivenover]

With what I know of RPers, all of this is very plausible enough that I'm surprised you haven't encountered it.

 

Yeah... not buying it.

[LiadansWhisper]

Frankly it's coming across to me as a straw-man fabrication designed to paint those who frown on casual fantasia use as extremist elitists that will go out their way to bully other RPers.

It does seem like something extremist elitists would go out of their way to bully other RPers for.

 

Ehhhhhh.  Probably, though I am of the opinion that people who would do something in the manner of what was described are simply bullies using "lore" to hide behind.

 

But, I mean, with the Blacklist button, you can pretty much eliminate all issue.

[Kage]

I don't see the "sudden fantasia no consequences" RP.

[Flickering Ember]

I'm pretty happy about the clarification on fantasia. Not because I want to take away people's RP toys but because fantasia potions are such a common and easy way to RP a character's appearance being dramatically changed. It does seem, as has been noted, consequence free. I hope folks will continue to race/gender change as they please IC. But I am also hoping that the clarification on fantasia potions will encourage folks to think of new and different ways on how such changes could have occurred. Ad Freelance Wizard has brought up, race/gender changes can be incredibly rewarding when there is a story involved with it.

 

I will still be accepting the canon of folks who RP fantasia potions. It's more fun for me to go with the flow rather than be contrary. I will be interested to see if there will be a change in the community for how race/gender changes are RPed out.

[allgivenover]

I don't see the "sudden fantasia no consequences" RP.

 

I've only seen it a handful of times myself, thankfully.

 

One of those really was the "I was playing around in my alchemy lab and accidentally fantasia'd myself and now I'm a miqo'te girl oh nooooOOO" kind of situation.

 

I won't cite names or times so as to avoid being accused of slander or something ridiculous like that.

[Zyrusticae]

A bigger part of the 'consequence free' Fantasia RP, as rare as it might be, that really bothers me is simply the displayed lack of respect for how much something like your appearance, your sex, your self-image, and even your internal bodily chemistry affects everything about who you are and how you interact with the world.

 

Part of it is likely simply sheer ignorance, possibly from a lack of perspective, education, experience, or a combination of all three, but seeing it playing out in front of me is just... well, it's not good for me, I'll put it like that. I feel like any event that life-changing should be played with the gravitas that such an event deserves, rather than played for cheap laughs or just because the writer got 'bored' (which, itself, is obviously another big red flag).

 

But of course, on the flip side, some of these stories can be really fascinating to read through. Like many things, it's a matter of execution. I don't hate the concept itself as much as the failure of those who use the concept to immensely juvenile ends.

 

I personally don't have any intention of taking an informal, paraphrased QA posted on Tumblr particularly seriously.

 

But maybe I'm just a party pooper.

 

I don't, either, especially when it contradicts a number of statements from people much higher up in rank.

 

Anything less than Yoshida or the Japanese writing team should be considered suspect, really. Doubly so when it comes to lunchtime musings posted on Tumblr of all places.

That is terribly disrespectful.

 

The English localization team is literally down the hall from the Japanese writing team, and Koji Fox himself can be considered a part of the core writing team as he is responsible for a large portion of the collaborative effort. For all intents and purposes, they are part of one writing team that includes the Japanese writers.

 

This is contrary to most other development houses where the localization team is a separate division or resides in another building or is even outsourced to another company entirely.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is as good as Word of God and there's no point trying to deny its legitimacy.

[Gone.]

Localization should not and does not have creative input on a video game whatsoever. It's the equivalent to asking someone in accounting for an opinion on a movie's theme over the director or scriptwriter. Simply put, it's irrelevant. Their job is to translate things and nothing more.

 

Honestly, the real insult is thinking someone 'down the hall' has a real say on the matter, especially when it's not revealed in any official manner. Someone's personal blog is not a legitimate source rather you agree or not.

[Aduu Avagnar]

except Koji is a member of the localisation team and is essentially deputy lore monkey under the main guy....

 

he is not a member of the japanese writing team, but is pretty involved with the lore. Does that mean any of his works aren't valid?

[allgivenover]

Localization should not and does not have creative input on a video game whatsoever. It's the equivalent to asking someone in accounting for an opinion on a movie's theme over the director or scriptwriter. Simply put, it's irrelevant. Their job is to translate things and nothing more.

 

Honestly, the real insult is thinking someone 'down the hall' has a real say on the matter, especially when it's not revealed in any official manner. Someone's personal blog is not a legitimate source rather you agree or not.

 

...you've had this exact conversation with others in prior threads, do you really just ignore what was stated by the devs themselves that the western team members have a hand in the lore and that they are not just a localization team?

 

Koji fuckin' wrote the lyrics to Dragonsong, and it's all lore stuff. Come on.

[Flickering Ember]

Localization should not and does not have creative input on a video game whatsoever. It's the equivalent to asking someone in accounting for an opinion on a movie's theme over the director or scriptwriter. Simply put, it's irrelevant. Their job is to translate things and nothing more.

 

Honestly, the real insult is thinking someone 'down the hall' has a real say on the matter, especially when it's not revealed in any official manner. Someone's personal blog is not a legitimate source rather you agree or not.

 

Basically what folks are saying is, unlike most localization teams, the FFXIV localization teams are involved right from the get go of the writing, before it is even finished. They are allowed and often do step in to collaborate on what is written together. The localization and original story writing is a team effort and not something that is done entirely by the Japanese writers and then passed off to other languages.

[Nako Vesh]

Localization should not and does not have creative input on a video game whatsoever. It's the equivalent to asking someone in accounting for an opinion on a movie's theme over the director or scriptwriter. Simply put, it's irrelevant. Their job is to translate things and nothing more.

 

Honestly, the real insult is thinking someone 'down the hall' has a real say on the matter, especially when it's not revealed in any official manner. Someone's personal blog is not a legitimate source rather you agree or not.

 

Basically what folks are saying is, unlike most localization teams, the FFXIV localization teams are involved right from the get go of the writing, before it is even finished. They are allowed and often do step in to collaborate on what is written together. The localization and original story writing is a team effort and not something that is done entirely by the Japanese writers and then passed off to other languages.

 

Exactly this. They make a team effort for the game to be received by an international audience and they review eachothers work. The localization team ARE writers in their own right, something that should be blatantly obvious from interviews they've done. If you don't like the lore, that's one thing, but don't dismiss the localization team because the lore doesn't line up with your ideas on how you think it should be.

[Kellach Woods]

Localization should not and does not have creative input on a video game whatsoever. It's the equivalent to asking someone in accounting for an opinion on a movie's theme over the director or scriptwriter. Simply put, it's irrelevant. Their job is to translate things and nothing more.

 

Localization actually doesn't just translate, if they translate at all. Localization fixes the mistakes a non-native speaker would commonly make or retreads the entire text for graphical implementations from different characters, etc.

 

E.G. : A textbox that fits the English phrase gets wrecked in the German translation because there's not supposed to be a line break and the German version requires one.

 

I've worked on ONE project where we technically had input over the game's lore because they asked us to fix the immensely broken English. Sadly, we were told to remove all of the original flavor from the game (to the point where I doubt all but one of my edits actually made it into the game proper) late in the project's cycle. It's funny how our localization team wanted the game to keep its flavor and kept rewriting stuff so that it remained with less text until they told us otherwise.

 

So yeah, respect your localization team. Most times, they care just as much as you do. Especially in this one since they're rolled into one office apparently.

[Mercer]

It's best that Fantasia is not canon due to the ramifications it would have on the grander story. If this magical substance is so easy to get your hands on, what's stopping the military, The Empire, The Syndicate, Tempered or any of the other enemy groups from using it to blend in. What stops them from kidnapping a person from society and replicating their appearance and integrate them back into that person's life?

 

Hell, what stops the Syndicate from from kidnapping the Sultana and placing an exact replicate in her place? Makes a lot more sense to do that and give themselves full reign over the politics instead of the current plot.

[Kellach Woods]

Used to be the actual text mentioned it was an excessively rare item likely to justify how you can only get it with RL money or after spending a month of cash on the game first time around.

 

Not saying the Syndicate/Monetarists couldn't get their hands on it, but just saying it would be impractical rather than impossible.

[Mercer]

Used to be the actual text mentioned it was an excessively rare item likely to justify how you can only get it with RL money or after spending a month of cash on the game first time around.

 

Not saying the Syndicate/Monetarists couldn't get their hands on it, but just saying it would be impractical rather than impossible.

 

Even so, if there is any group that would be able to get their hands on it it would be the Syndicate. If the rarity was true, that would only give them more reason to use it as there would be little suspicion that the Sultana would actually be missing.

[V'aleera]

My comment was not disrespectful of the localization team, or dismissive of their role. They have a place at the table when it comes to how the lore is conceived and created and that's fine.

 

But I will not take as word of God what an unsupervised worker with a mouthful of rice or soba said to a random Tumblr poster that did not even bother to transcribe the words as they were spoken.

 

Live letters are Word of God.

 

Forum posts from the community and localization team members permitted and vetted to post are Word of God.

 

Panel answers by vetted members of the localization teams are Word of God.

 

Steve the localization guy chatting with a fan at lunch about work is not Word of God. At most it gives some credible insight into author intent, which is still far removed from Word of God.

[Gone.]

My comment was not disrespectful of the localization team, or dismissive of their role. They have a place at the table when it comes to how the lore is conceived and created and that's fine.

 

But I will not take as word of God what an unsupervised worker with a mouthful of rice or soba said to a random Tumblr poster that did not even bother to transcribe the words as they were spoken.

 

Live letters are Word of God.

 

Forum posts from the community and localization team members permitted and vetted to post are Word of God.

 

Panel answers by vetted members of the localization teams are Word of God.

 

Steve the localization guy chatting with a fan at lunch about work is not Word of God. At most it gives some credible insight into author intent, which is still far removed from Word of God.

 

My point, that as always, is completely and utterly ignored.

 

I really don't care who writes what or who works for who, the bottom line is Tumblr is not a valid source for any information unless it is the absolute official blog for the related subject.

 

This isn't going to stop people from RPing out fantasias. Honestly all I can do at this point is be brash and say 'deal with it', because nothing is going to change and frankly, outside of an amount of people I can count on my hands, no one cares.

[Flickering Ember]

The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.

 

Hence why I've become increasingly dismissive of terms such as 'lore compliant' or 'lore following' etc. It doesn't mean much. Lore sources are subjective too. What is an acceptable lore source? I could argue myself that minion and mount descriptions don't count as lore since they're all ridiculous anyway. But no, really, I do think you are in your right to not see the tumblr infos as word of god.

 

I do so because social media is very entrenched in our society at this point and it isn't the first time I've seen lore spread around this way. (Twitter lore tidbits for example) We have so little in FFXIV that it is understandable that people would chomp at anything like that.

 

In the end, I don't feel as though the tumblr info should be used to say "No! You can't RP out fantasia!" but rather open dialogues such as : "How plausible is fantasia use out in the world?" "Is there more to it?" "What are the benefits and negatives of using it in our RP?" "Are there alternative methods of shape-shifting?" "What does fantasia mean for the RPC community?"

 

I've also personally seen fantasia as a good source of RP when it doesn't matter how that person transformed but that they did so. In the end, probably the real problem with fantasia potion is its widespread use in RP. That's just not something we can fix, as you noted. We can't help what's popular.

[Sin]

The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.

 

 

I think that's partly true, and certainly a big part of what entertains me as a lore nerd is discussing the grey between the lines. And boy, does FFXIV have grey between the lines...

 

With that being said however, there is an immutable, non-debatable core presented within works of fiction, and certainly presented in our chosen game. A term like lore compliant -should- mean abiding by that core. Though I admit it can be corrupted and twisted into meaning anyone that abides by the the core and the particular set of interpretations of the person. Unfortunately, this happens time and time again.

 

Regardless, on topic, people are free to roleplay or -not- roleplay whatever they wish. I agree that discussions over lunch about lore with the localization team while interesting and awesome should be taken with a grain of salt, and as they themselves pointed out what they said is subject to change.

 

With that being said, I think what they said about fantasia potions is pretty much what most people I know reasoned of their existence. To have a world where fantasia's function the way they do mechanically without any catch is ludicrous. The fact that they are never mentioned by any NPC or quest or FATE or anything really is a big hint as to their place in the world in my opinion.

[FreelanceWizard]

The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.

 

Hence why I've become increasingly dismissive of terms such as 'lore compliant' or 'lore following' etc. It doesn't mean much. Lore sources are subjective too. What is an acceptable lore source? I could argue myself that minion and mount descriptions don't count as lore since they're all ridiculous anyway. But no, really, I do think you are in your right to not see the tumblr infos as word of god.

 

When I, at least, say "lore compliant," I mean "basically jives with what we know about the setting." So that means, to me, no characters from the X-Men showing up, no vampires/werewolves/(insert popular supernatural YA fiction character type here), no claims that the sky is heliotrope and elezen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and nothing the devs have explicitly said doesn't exist -- which is really precious few things.

 

Beyond that, we're all in grey areas to some degree. As you noted, the lore's not concrete, and there are some well-known disagreements about how to interpret some of it. One that comes to mind just now is "how powerful are the elementals in the Shroud at this part of the story." We can have those disagreements, I think, and still all RP together outside of those disagreements.

[Hyrist]

When I, at least, say "lore compliant," I mean "basically jives with what we know about the setting." So that means, to me, no characters from the X-Men showing up, no vampires/werewolves/(insert popular supernatural YA fiction character type here), no claims that the sky is heliotrope and elezen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and nothing the devs have explicitly said doesn't exist -- which is really precious few things.

 

Beyond that, we're all in grey areas to some degree. As you noted, the lore's not concrete, and there are some well-known disagreements about how to interpret some of it. One that comes to mind just now is "how powerful are the elementals in the Shroud at this part of the story." We can have those disagreements, I think, and still all RP together outside of those disagreements.

 

(I'm going to preface this with an acknowledgement that my opinion may be unpopular and I accept the difficulties that may provide. However my concern is the happiness and entertainment of my comrades, not an abstract and logically restrictive ideal. So long as it is within reason, and not overly ridiculous, my friends come first.)

 

When lore is unaccommodating of easily accessible mechanics to the player, it is the lore that it in error, and is open to be bent or flat out disregarded.

 

The problem about lore-mongering is that it does not take bad writing on behalf of the creators into consideration. The more FFXIV's story staff treats their lore like a single-player game, the more damaging and dividing it becomes to the Roleplayer base. And this happens across several MMOs, particularly noticeable in SWtOR and ARR in particular are pretty big violators of this.

 

Conversely, well-written lore premises do not ignore their mechanics. Aion in particular went above and beyond making even the revival mechanics part of their lore. Even FFXIV 1.0 in the instance was far and away more inclusive then what's being provided here and now.

 

 

Our Free Company keeps 'Adventurer Class' Jobs as canon, with a general story behind each on how the practices are passed on. Issues with individual components such as Fantasias can generally be written in, rather than be retconed. 

 

And each situation that these exceptions occur, crate their own sphere of canons that become glossed over, or just not mentioned in larger groupings, in which their own canon may differ.

 

Head-canon > Personal Canon > Group Canon > Public Canon > Lore - This is generally an accepted structure in preventing lore or personal cannon conflicts. The wider of a group you deal with, the more conflicting details just simply don't come up or be presented.

 

 

Here's a breakdown of how it could be done in the spoiler:

 

Headcannon:

Example Character in head-cannon is a veteran of the Battle of Rivenroad. Gridania's representative in the battle that was, at the time, thought would have prevented the Calamity. This White Mage, blessed directly by the elementals witnessed the death of Nael van Darnus first hand. This is an act he would never speak of to others as he feels that his attempt was for naught. (This is mainly flight of fancy on behalf of the Player, the 'what if' or inner most secrets told to no one, shared to no one that they would have. Example is used simply because it's the most recognizable feat that would be publicly lore breaking)

 

Personal Cannon:

To a select few, Example Character is known as a Warrior of Light - a true veteran of the Battle of Cartneau. But Example Character does not parade around this fact, and keeps his personal traumas and actions concerning the matter down to quiet conversations held between friends and shared only between other veterans, should they ever cross paths. His personal experience discussed in the quiet corners of his life, away from the public light that would shower him with either fame or ire.

 

Group Cannon:

Example Character is one of the Resident Company Healer. His origins as a White Mage are somewhat known, but the hows and whys are mainly kept secret. He is but one of many, each with their quiet personal tales that may be shared on a personal level, but the wider story is not about how they got to where they are - but in what times they share together, be it a quiet night of Tea, or an adventurer the bards may sing of.

 

Public Canon:

Example Character is a healer of some notable skill. Quiet in demeanor, and seems to be reserved about his past. He has an outgoing personality that focuses on helping those particularly traumatized by some major event in their life. And seems to get agitated when mention of 'Cartneau' and 'Warriors of Light' are brought into discussion. The most surface level of demeanor and knowledge are know about the man, but not much else. Someone would have to become more involved with his group, or himself to begin to know more of his story.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm actually surprised that more MMO communities are not familiar with these concepts. I've found they work exceedingly well when it comes to accommodating individual quirks in roleplay.

[FreelanceWizard]

Don't get me wrong, I'm really not a fan of the way some lore is built in XIV. I'm a big believer in "mechanics are lore too" -- also an unpopular opinion -- and the poor execution of some of the quests is a constant source of annoyance. I can think of several ways to create a wielder of Succor (note I don't necessarily say White Mage; it's like the difference between a conjurer and a Conjurer) that dodges and weaves around the constraints established by the lore, at least as I interpret it.

 

With that said, though, what you say is quite true -- the more open your RP is, the more you have to hew to the "common denominator" of what's accepted to get the maximum amount of RP.