Lore check request

[Riven]

Hello.  I'm starting to put together my character's bio, and I needed a check on something. I was thinking of having her as a summoner ICly, which fits well with her story-a battle magic user for hire.  

 

How does rping a summoner work ICly?  I know not to run around and godmode/metagame and all that- but are there any major lore concepts I should look out for?  Or be careful of?

[Aaron]

SMN have to defeat the primal for their essence in order to get their egi.

 

iirc Correctly each primal has only been summoned 2 - 3 times in history. 

 

So if you're going to rp having a Ifrit egi or something like that be prepared for tedious validation questions. I personally wouldn't care but other people probably will.

 

Edit - Which brings me to the funny question of if by some chance you did have a Ifrit egi and made up some hilarious reason why, 9/10 people IC wouldn't be able to tell if youre telling the truth or not because the majority of people aren't SMN and would have zero idea how that works. So you'd on actuality probably be able to get away with it.

 

Which leads to the whole OOC knowledge bleeding in deal for no reason. BUT THATS FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD.

[Riven]

Ah-ha!!  I didn't know that, so I will just change that bit.  Good to know.

 

What is a passable non-lore breaking magical job/class that I coulse use ICly then?

[Aaron]

Ah-ha!!  I didn't know, so I will just change that bit.  Good to know  

 

What is a passable non-lore breaking magical job/class that I coulse use ICly then?

Anything not SMN, BLM, WHM, DRG (Azure Dragoon).

 

SCH i have no idea. Everything else should be fine tho to what I know. But im not a lore king so there's better people to ask

[Kage]

SMN have to defeat the primal for their essence in order to get their egi.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

You merely need to be nearby during the slaying.

 

Summoner - Refers to users of a form of magic once used by the ancient Allagans in the 3rd Astral Era over 5000 years ago. The Allagans are believed to have possessed great knowledge of magic and technology that has since been lost to the world. One of these forms of magic was known as Summoning, wherein a mage would invoke the essences of Primals they had defeated in combat. One such Allagan hero, named Wiyu, faced off against the Dark Divinity using the power of the Primals. However, the battle took an ill turn, and Wiyu sacrificed herself to seal the Elder Primal Odin from the world for the next 5000 years.

 

Today, there are very few who are even aware of this practice, let alone capable of wielding its power. However, with the Sons of Saint Coinach delving deeper and deeper into the secrets of the ancient Allagans and the ever growing popularity of Allagan artifacts on the market, knowledge thought lost for over 5000 years has slowly crept back to the surface. As for the summoner in the SMN storyline, he was taught this power by the Ascians, not via a soulstone or having fought a Primal.

 

Going further into this tangent of Summoners having to face the Primals, it is merely stated in the SMN storyline that your proximity to a Primal Summoning and its subsequent death is what awakens the power within you and allows the Player Character to draw forth that essence into an Egi. It does not specifically say that you, the Player Character, must needs be the blade which slays it. One could merely be a close observer to the fight, like Urianger oversees our duel with Ramuh in the MSQ.

 

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8388&pid=110703&highlight=summoner#pid110703

 

Edit: I will say though, I haven't done the SMN 50-60 Job quests especially after 3.0.. I dunno if it's changed.

[Aaron]

SMN have to defeat the primal for their essence in order to get their egi.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

You merely need to be nearby during the slaying.

Ive never done the smn questline so I was repeating something I heard.

 

At any rate regardless odds of you being conveniently near a primal as it dies is unlikely.

[Riven]

Ok then!  I am new to FF rp, quite different from what I'm used to in Warcraft, heh heh.  I def didn't know that bit about the summons.

[FreelanceWizard]

iirc Correctly each primal has only been summoned 2 - 3 times in history. 

 

This is a matter of considerable debate, just for reference.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, while there are only three quest lines for each primal (story, hard, and extreme), it's explicitly stated that the Company of Heroes defeated Titan before (MSQ, Titan line); that a record of all those who've been involved with the defeat of primals is kept (SMN level 30 quest); that the Scions have fought primals enough times to have an entire banal duty around killing the tempered (MSQ, Ifrit line); that tempering is a pretty regular thing (a whole ton of FATEs and quests); that the beast tribes are constantly after crystals to summon their primals (MSQ, all throughout) and that this repeated cycle is part of the Ascians' plan (MSQ, several times but most directly after Ravana HM); and so on.

 

So, with those bits in mind, there's naturally some debate about how often primals get summoned in practice. Personally, to get back to the OP's question, I would say that it's fairly plausible to be exposed to a primal's essence if you're a reasonably skilled adventurer.

[Gegenji]

SMN have to defeat the primal for their essence in order to get their egi.

 

 

This is incorrect.

 

You merely need to be nearby during the slaying.

Ive never done the smn questline so I was repeating something I heard.

 

At any rate regardless odds of you being conveniently near a primal as it dies is unlikely.

 

I dunno. Being near ONE Primal I could see - and could be a major background plot point (was captured by the Amal'jaa to be sacrificed to Ifrit, was saved by the WoL steamrolling through). I would say the issue would come from trying to claim you've been near two or even all three to match all the currently available Egi, unless your character took up following the WoL around and was nearby for all that. Or any of the RP-based situations where player characters have dealt with Primals (like Dogberry's events).

 

This could be more easily circumvented by just using one Egi "ICly" while OOCly having access to the rest (and might be made easier if/when being able to "choose" your Egi appearances happens). So, in the Amal'jaa situation I mentioned, the character could ICly have the Ifrit Egi - and would be the one utilized in RP situations. Even when using the other Egis, you could RP them as "also being Ifrit Egi" and hopefully people will suspend their disbelief enough and roll with it.

 

Then again, with some creative thinking, alternatives could be made for having/obtaining the Egis. Crystal holding aether is already a commonplace thing - perhaps a few crystals left over from a Primal summoning might retain trace amounts of their essence? Enough to be able to form an Egi - either by itself or collecting several of them? Or even being in the place the beast was summoned - mayhaps some of its energy still lingers for suns afterward before fully fading away. Or we could even use the soul crystal as another "cheat" method by having the crystal itself infused with the remnant, Egi-forming energy of a Primal.

 

Of course, this is all if you're eager to stick to being a Summoner as your "battle magic user." You could also roll as a THM (or even warily delve into the realm of Black Magic, though that has its own dangers and pitfalls), SCH (they are also about "combat magic," but more tactically inclined and support based), or even just play as a straight ACN with your Carbuncle (which is made using your own aether, and thus has none of the Egi issues). All are possible options, and I'm sure you can find a way to make any of them work - SMN included. :thumbsup:

[Aaron]

iirc Correctly each primal has only been summoned 2 - 3 times in history. 

 

This is a matter of considerable debate, just for reference.

 

EDIT: Just to clarify, while there are only three quest lines for each primal (story, hard, and extreme), it's explicitly stated that the Company of Heroes defeated Titan before (MSQ, Titan line); that a record of all those who've been involved with the defeat of primals is kept (SMN level 30 quest); that the Scions have fought primals enough times to have an entire banal duty around killing the tempered (MSQ, Ifrit line); that tempering is a pretty regular thing (a whole ton of FATEs and quests); that the beast tribes are constantly after crystals to summon their primals (MSQ, all throughout) and that this repeated cycle is part of the Ascians' plan (MSQ, several times but most directly after Ravana HM); and so on.

 

So, with those bits in mind, there's naturally some debate about how often primals get summoned in practice. Personally, to get back to the OP's question, I would say that it's fairly plausible to be exposed to a primal's essence if you're a reasonably skilled adventurer.

See this is what confuses me, I remember long time ago I just threw around the idea of Aaron just "seeing" Ifrit get summoned and even getting almost captured but a few lore guys I said it to specifically told me Ifrit has only been summoned < 5 times and that any fates recalling attempted tempers are cannonically always thwarted by adventurers otherwise the primal would be too powerful to kill because of you know, successful tempers.

 

Also unrelated note - anyone find it weird how a band of dumb looking people in the company of heroes managed to take down two Primals? L eviathan said to be one of the stronger ones at that?

 

Like, a old Nunh and a goblin, what?

[Hammersmith]

Being all "I was there for killing a Primal" or "I killed a Primal" tred dangerous grounds.

 

Most of the Primals have "canonical" points where they were summoned and beat down before the MSQ took place.  Titan&Levi at Limsa and Ifrit down in Thanalan, specifically, get these kind of "They almost nuked a city last time" callouts.

 

On the otherhand: You're in Final Fantasy and you have options! 

 

1) You might have BEEN there at the canonical Primal slayings(Titan, Levi, and Ifrit have all RECENTLY shown up in the last 20+ years before the MSQ), and then you dug into Egi work with the Sons or something during scholarly pursuits.  A career adventurer might well have been at Primal Slayings in the 7'th astral era, recently even, before the Calamity.

 

This is a "Deepest Lore" approach, and there's nothing wrong with it.  Hell, it's kind of solid, and fits the given history as we know it along with the basics of "How does an Egi work?" concepts.  Just don't be Goku and be responsible for all primal slaying every wow I'm so powerful look at me, and you're fine.  Keep it reasonable, keep it sane.

 

2) Your summons arn't Egi summons.  Maybe you weave ether into constructs that act as spell channelers.  Maybe you let your subconcious steer a magical construct or Homunculi.  Maybe it's a magitec animatronic that you've been working on that spews fire and transforms (and rolls out?)  into different primal 'shapes' to activate different devices inside it.

 

This is the freeform approach that detatches from 'pure' lore and moves onto more plausible but less canonically 'true' methods of being a 'summoner' without being a Summoner.  These are also neat, and often very creative! You're also in short spinning your own ways to make these things work, which means you need to make sure you're not spinning a God Mod powered char out of thin air, since you're making up your own lore for it.  Just remember to Not Be a Dick and you'll be fine here.

[Mercer]

Another lore bending option is based on 50-60 SMN quests is the fact that basically everything has been doused with Bahamut Aether. Tapping into and manipulating primal energies is much easier now that Bahamut is well and truly dead.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

There's always the Carbuncle route as well! Not quite an egi, but still summoned with geometries. SE's kinda leaned on the idea that the carbuncle acts the way a summoner expects it to act. SMN wants carbuncle to be a sparkly puppy? Done. SMN wants carbuncle to be 100% killing machine with no will? Also done.

[FreelanceWizard]

See this is what confuses me, I remember long time ago I just threw around the idea of Aaron just "seeing" Ifrit get summoned and even getting almost captured but a few lore guys I said it to specifically told me Ifrit has only been summoned

 

Like I said, it's a matter of some debate, much like the current power of elementals in the Shroud. (The FATE thing, however, is definitely wrong. There are several FATEs, leves, and quests where you fight tempered servants.) An important thing to remember about XIV is that there's not a whole lot that the devs slam the door on and say, "No, this can never happen." Lore in XIV is more about understanding what's common versus rare, rather than what's forbidden.

 

Without falling back onto "play what you want," if you side with the "primals are god-level power and extremely rarely summoned" camp, you have still some options. You could've been part of, or near to, the Company of Heroes or another Grand Company unit when they Brannigan-ed Ifrit and Titan. You could, as Hammersmith noted, not be summoning an egi but some other aetheric construct, similar to a carbuncle. (This will be a lot easier once pet glamours are available.) Perhaps you were in the general vicinity of one of the primal summonings that the Main Character defeated -- because you were captured or because you had bad luck (imagine a ship getting too close to Leviathan, or getting lost in the Sylphlands!).

 

Conversely, if you side with the "primals are nasty but mostly dangerous because of their social and aetheric effects, being commonly summoned," you could easily have been present at the defeat of one or more of them, even if you weren't the blade that took them down.

[Sin]

Everyone's got some good points.

 

I want to add something though...

 

Because of the way the job lore has been presented you will definitely need a solid background explaining how you were able to be infused with that primal aether.

 

But more importantly I think is recognizing that Summoner in this world is not a simple, carefree bit of magick that anyone can do.

 

It's an ancient, forgotten powerful magick, and to the bumpkins of most of Eorzea, beset on all sides by primal forces it will seem nearly sacrilegious.

 

Basically what I'm saying is it's a big deal. It's not to be taken lightly, its a big choice for your character and roleplaying it well will take a good amount of research into the lore of the class, and a good amount of time fleshing out your background to justify how your character came to acquire this ancient, powerful magick.

 

My suggestion would be to begin as an Arcanist, taught in the guild or by a private tutore or self-taught with some book, whatever you want. But start there, and roleplay the path to becoming a SMN. (You'll still have to have her be doused by primal aether at some point, but it's a nice slow start as you learn the lore.)

 

Also you get a super cute carbuncle to play with.

 

Anyway, asking here is a great first step! I wish you the best luck in fleshing out your character and joining us for some fun roleplay.

[FreelanceWizard]

It's an ancient, forgotten powerful magick, and to the bumpkins of most of Eorzea, beset on all sides by primal forces it will seem nearly sacrilegious.

 

That's an excellent point, and one well worth bringing up. While Eorzeans are generally an accepting lot, Big Magic like Summoning is likely to draw more than a bit of attention, most of it not good. From people shuttering their windows and slamming their doors in fear, to guards who want to know what your endgame is, to a variety of political forces who'd like to use you for their own gain, Big Magic demands attention -- attention you may not (read: probably don't) want.

 

Also you get a super cute carbuncle to play with.

 

This is why I want pet glamours. I miss my carby. :cry:

[Syranelle Ironleaf]

What about being a Hearer that is so closely-attuned to the Elementals that one follows the character around out of curiosity (or perhaps as a test / observation to ensure Mankind is still trustworthy.)  I know Hearers are Conjurers by lore, but it seems like a fun/interesting idea in my head.  I'm sure Lore Purists are facepalming as they read this, though...

[Unnamed Mercenary]

What about being a Hearer that is so closely-attuned to the Elementals that one follows the character around out of curiosity (or perhaps as a test / observation to ensure Mankind is still trustworthy.)  I know Hearers are Conjurers by lore, but it seems like a fun/interesting idea in my head.  I'm sure Lore Purists are facepalming as they read this, though...

 

I could have seen this possibly in a 1.0 timeline setting, but with the Calamity and how the Elementals were weakened? The more sentient ones are probably unlikely to do so. (Although, I should be quick to point out that the 1.0 WHM clothes were literally an Elemental).

 

The lesser elementals, like the annoying ones we fight left and right are a bit different in nature to an Elemental.

 

As a SMN or within the game, I would steer clear of it personally. In writing? I could see it working out better.

[Thorgar]

not to derail the thread but i was under the impression from the game dialogue that Primals showing up was far more common.  after i killed Ifrit in MSQ, and dealing with the grand companies it seemed that they had to put down ifrit time and again.  the language used made it seem far more common than just a handful of times.

 

where does it state that it has happened only a couple of times total?

[Melkire]

It's more that we, the players, only witness a handful of primal summonings. This makes it difficult to determine conclusively how frequently the primals are summoned by their relative beast tribes.

 

Clearly, if they were summoned and promptly defeated every few days, the main character's assistance in putting down the Primal thread wouldn't be treated with the impact that NPCs seem to place upon it. Not much meaning to the Scions' assistance if it's a routine task.

[Blue]

RP what job you want. If the game makes it possible, then it respects the lore. It's not more lore-breaking than choosing to be a Garlean or a Padjal or whatever else the game does not provide as an option.

 

The only golden rule is do not flaunt it, do not make it the sole focus of your RP. "I'm a summoner and..." "See, us summoners..." "That is why as a summoner..." over and over and over in your RP lines will make people irked, but otherwise, no one will give a damn at what class you're RPing, and I say this as a year-long WHM RPer who has never encountered an arched eyebrow so far.

[Yssen]

SMN have to defeat the primal for their essence in order to get their egi.

 

iirc Correctly each primal has only been summoned 2 - 3 times in history. 

 

So if you're going to rp having a Ifrit egi or something like that be prepared for tedious validation questions. I personally wouldn't care but other people probably will.

 

Edit - Which brings me to the funny question of if by some chance you did have a Ifrit egi and made up some hilarious reason why, 9/10 people IC wouldn't be able to tell if youre telling the truth or not because the majority of people aren't SMN and would have zero idea how that works. So you'd on actuality probably be able to get away with it.

 

Which leads to the whole OOC knowledge bleeding in deal for no reason. BUT THATS FOR A DIFFERENT THREAD.

 

not to derail the thread but i was under the impression from the game dialogue that Primals showing up was far more common.  after i killed Ifrit in MSQ, and dealing with the grand companies it seemed that they had to put down ifrit time and again.  the language used made it seem far more common than just a handful of times.

 

where does it state that it has happened only a couple of times total?

[Yssen]

not to derail the thread but i was under the impression from the game dialogue that Primals showing up was far more common.  after i killed Ifrit in MSQ, and dealing with the grand companies it seemed that they had to put down ifrit time and again.  the language used made it seem far more common than just a handful of times.

 

where does it state that it has happened only a couple of times total?

 

No where at all. The implication from both 1.0 and 2.0 onward is that the beast tribes regularly summon their primals. That is what they are going after crystals for. That said, one could debate the frequency of when a primal is summoned to go into full combat rage mode, or just to temper/drown/whatever a new batch of servants. It is also debateable what power level a primal has when it is summoned. All that is required for every primal summoning is a large amount of aether, but the amount of aether and technique seems to be a determining factor. 

 

The Grand Companies are largely tied up preventing the hostile beast tribes from gathering enough crystals/aether to summon them. The fact that primals can only be dissipated and not killed is a factor. Hence the Alagans and others coming up with more permanent and strange solutions to the primal problem. I mean, look at Odin. Odin pretty much shows up when ever he damn well feels like it, it is part of his nature.

[FreelanceWizard]

It's more that we, the players, only witness a handful of primal summonings. This makes it difficult to determine conclusively how frequently the primals are summoned by their relative beast tribes.

 

Clearly, if they were summoned and promptly defeated every few days, the main character's assistance in putting down the Primal thread wouldn't be treated with the impact that NPCs seem to place upon it. Not much meaning to the Scions' assistance if it's a routine task.

 

I tend to feel that the primals defeated by the Main Character are especially potent or otherwise dangerous summonings -- particularly given the recent battles with the Garleans that have left the Grand Companies weakened -- which is why the Scions end up getting involved. It's not that primal summonings are exceedingly rare, it's that city-threatening and persistent summonings are. Leviathan is an interesting case, as the instance destroyed by the Main Character in the MSQ is first time Leviathan's been summoned in quite a while (at least so far as the Maelstrom knows), but we also know that's because the Ascians just recently showed the Sahagin how to do it. There's surely nothing stopping them afterwards once they know how, other than access to crystals.

 

An interesting point is that HW seems to make out summoning primals as a fairly simple act once you know how to do it, if you have the right tools (knowledge, aether, image, and will). The Ascians' game seems to be to spread this knowledge as much as possible, knowing that those in fear will have the image and will, and all they then need is the aether to make their dreams into reality. Each summoning weakens Hydaelyn and moves things closer to their end game.

[Riven]

Hmmm, this is all really useful!  I didn't know the history involving the summoner or any major magical class was that complicated.