Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism

[UntrueCrystal]

Some people seem to be fairly desperate to make the world they RP in as grim and dark as possible. Sometimes a fantasy world is just that. There may be racist remarks here or there, but you don't need to take it as far as some people and treat it like the USA in the 1920's or something like Warhammer.

[Virella]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2tnjfc/gay_npcs_in_the_quest_not_easy_being_green/

 

"We...we had grown rather fond of the tonberries while living amongst them. They have good hearts, no matter how odd their appearance. None of that should matter anyway. This fellow is Hyuran and I am Miqo'te; are we lesser a couple for our difference? I should think not!"

"Is that not the greatest tragedy you have ever heard? To be so spurned and locked away in some horrid gaol─and by one's own people, no less!"

"My dearest and I know their pain all too well. We both had to leave our birthplace. Why, you ask? Simply because we were different. No, we will not sit idly by and let the tonberries be subjected to such terrible treatment!"

 

 

Okay, we will just ignore how interracial couples get locked into goals, forced to leave their birthplace, because, you know, that is not severe at all. Nah, we just play pretend that Eorzea is just fine and dandy. Because living in ignorance is a lot more easier!

 

PS Ishard not being racist? I think the Mongrel wants a word with you all.

 

/flops out of thread again.

[UntrueCrystal]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/2tnjfc/gay_npcs_in_the_quest_not_easy_being_green/

 

"We...we had grown rather fond of the tonberries while living amongst them. They have good hearts, no matter how odd their appearance. None of that should matter anyway. This fellow is Hyuran and I am Miqo'te; are we lesser a couple for our difference? I should think not!"

"Is that not the greatest tragedy you have ever heard? To be so spurned and locked away in some horrid gaol─and by one's own people, no less!"

"My dearest and I know their pain all too well. We both had to leave our birthplace. Why, you ask? Simply because we were different. No, we will not sit idly by and let the tonberries be subjected to such terrible treatment!"

 

 

Okay, we will just ignore how interracial couples get locked into goals, forced to leave their birthplace, because, you know, that is not severe at all. Nah, we just play pretend that Eorzea is just fine and dandy. Because living in ignorance is a lot more easier!

 

PS Ishard not being racist? I think the Mongrel wants a word with you all.

 

/flops out of thread again.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Eorzea is nothing but sunshine and lollipops. It's when people RP it as nothing but a racist, dark, horrible place based on what a tiny fraction of the NPCs and lore say. If the tension between races was as prevalent as a lot of you guys seem to treat it, we'd be having race riots on a daily basis and mixed race relationships would be punishable by death instead of.. you know, encouraged and extremely common like they actually are.

[Kellach Woods]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Eorzea is nothing but sunshine and lollipops. It's when people RP it as nothing but a racist, dark, horrible place based on what a tiny fraction of the NPCs and lore say. If the tension between races was as prevalent as a lot of you guys seem to treat it, we'd be having race riots on a daily basis and mixed race relationships would be punishable by death instead of.. you know, encouraged and extremely common like they actually are.

they're not encouraged - but people aren't gonna kill most races on sight. It's really the Au Ra because they resemble dragons (Ishgard) / demons (everywhere else) that get that treatment, and even then it's mostly seen in the DRK/WHM questlines.

 

The Duskwights would have been genocided out of existence if what you said, and all the Ala Mhigo refugees would have been put to the sword the moment they stepped into the Twelveswood and Ul'dah.

[C'kayah Polaali]

Once upon a time, I played in a Forgotten Realms setting in Neverwinter Nights.  Now, originally I'd planned on playing a slightly-damaged, kind and open-minded Elven character.  But as I started playing, I noticed the strangest thing.  We were in Cormyr, and there, in the middle of Arabel, were some Drow.  Openly.  Advertising their presence.  But don't worry, they assured us, they weren't the bad Drow.  They were good Drow.  And 90% of the population played right along, complete with hugging of the Drow, petting of the Drow, oh, the Drow are so awesome, etc.

 

And I thought that was really weird, to be frank.  Because in the setting, Drow are the people who murder your family while you're sleeping and hang their skinned corpses from the ceiling to greet you when you wake up.  They're the stuff of absolute nightmares to most people, to the point that many Elves refuse to even believe their good deity - Elistraee - exists at all.  Because the Drow are so evil, how could there possibly be good ones?

 

I briefly played Neverwinter, and ran into this, as well. A friend of mine and I played a pair of traditional Drow. She played a female who had been sent up to the surface as a spy, and I played a male who was sent up to be her minion. We literally ran into 0 traditional Drow RPers. They all played good Drow, to the extent that they would take me aside and try to tell me that I didn't have to live subserviently to my friend's character, that I could throw that all aside and come be free.

 

We enjoyed the hell out of this, because our Drow were evil. Sure my drow was subservient to hers. That's the way it's supposed to be, after all. But he sure as hell wasn't about to treat those turncoat good Drow as anything other than the filth they were.

[Dravus]

Some people seem to be fairly desperate to make the world they RP in as grim and dark as possible. Sometimes a fantasy world is just that. There may be racist remarks here or there, but you don't need to take it as far as some people and treat it like the USA in the 1920's or something like Warhammer.

 

I remember people bringing up this point back in WoW as well. Yet very few people actually do that...and Hydaelyn is established - repeatedly - as being a pretty grim and dark place to live. I doubt I need to go into the how and why (partly to avoid spoilers and mostly because anybody who owns the game can see for themselves fairly easily).

 

Who are these 'some people', though? Can we have examples? There's no need to name any particular individuals directly, of course, though I'd love to be able to wrap my head around all this!

[Kellach Woods]

you seriphyn etc.

[Dravus]

you seriphyn etc.

 

Could you elaborate? I can't speak for the OP but the reason I'm so passionate about seeing more of the established darker themes in-game is because they're directly tied to my character's purpose - both in terms of his controversial heritage and the fact that he's a diplomat.

 

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

 

It's also pretty hard to portray a diplomat effectively if everybody's characters get along with no issue.

 

I'd like to think I'm being pretty reasonable in suggesting that it'd be pretty cool if there was more racism in-game - it's supported by the lore, provides intriguing conflict and it's by no means 'forced' when the setting often portrays such things as existing.

 

If it were a push for, let's say...more discrimination based on one's sexuality than I could understand the backlash, criticism and aversion. After all, Eorzeans are shown to be very sexually liberated and I'm 99% certain that we've got developer statements backing up the fact that sexuality isn't typically a point of discrimination throughout Eorzea.

[V'aleera]

 

Okay, we will just ignore how interracial couples get locked into goals

I'm actually fairly certain this specific bit was a reference to the tonberries getting locked away, not the interracial couple.

[Edda]

you seriphyn etc.

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

Pretty much this. Obviously, we should not take things too far and respect the OOC wishes of others (communication is key here), but there is definitely value in RPing themes that are not necessarily pleasant. It's not about making things as grimdark and heavy-handed as possible - it's about creating conflict, which is hella fun to RP and really great for character interactions and development. Racial, national, and social tensions are a great way to introduce a good, healthy dose of conflict into your RP whilst fitting in nicely with the setting of the game.

[Virella]

 

Okay, we will just ignore how interracial couples get locked into goals

I'm actually fairly certain this specific bit was a reference to the tonberries getting locked away, not the interracial couple.

Hmm true enough, yet being forced out of your birthplaces because you loved another race is still very, very dire.

[Naunet]

3. "Eorzea is a terrible place to live." There are implications in this thread that Eorzea is dangerous and harsh. I don't see how FFXIV is even the tiniest bit of a gritty fantasy though. (See: Berserk and Attack on Titan for comparisons) City states, and the world as a whole for that matter, are clean and pretty. We see mixed races regularly not only getting along, but befriending each other, in the majority of quests available to us in FFXIV. Suffering is implied, rather than shown. (If Eorzea is so dangerous, why don't we see more people dying during quests?)

 

The whole game is "clean and pretty", but I think that's more of a visual aesthetic than any kind of sign that Eorzea is light and fluffy. All it takes is reading quest text, listening to NPC dialogue, and reading the other bits and pieces of lore to figure out that there's a lot of very not "clean and pretty" all over the world. Refugees starving outside Ul'dah's walls, vagrants in the streets, dangerous, often carnivorous beasts around every corner, a pretty well-entrenched slave trade (that likely involves both slave labor and sex-trafficking), constant upheaval on many more rural towns by beast tribes, pirates that think nothing of slitting your throat and that the local government can't seem to keep in line, pretty sharp class divides in society, a forest where if you take a wrong step you risk death...

 

It's definitely not a nice place.

[Marisa]

 but you don't need to take it as far as some people and treat it like the USA in the 1920's or something like Warhammer.

 

False. Everything should always be Warhammer, all the time. Anything that's not Warhammer is bad.

[Nero]

you seriphyn etc.

 

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

 

But it's not just about creating conflict; it's about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't superficial is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

 

An Ishgardian might be racist to Au Ra. A Gridanian might be racist to Keepers and Duskwight. Eorzeans in general will be heavily prejudiced against Garleans. Eorzeans might also discriminate against Ala Mhigans, particularly Gridanians and Ul'dahns. Ala Mhigans might be particularly distasteful of Ul'dah.

 

When you get outside of the realm of ethnic and social conflicts--of which Eorzea does not have very many with the notable exceptions above--a character's reasons for being a racist very quickly boils down into an amalgam of Freudian excuses and anecdotes, which are often as easy to dismiss in RP as they are in real life.

 

I'm not against racism and conflict in RP. I am very much against those things being arbitrary, poorly defined, or difficult to justify.

[Dravus]

you seriphyn etc.

 

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

 

But it's not just about creating conflict; its about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't arbitrary is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

 

An Ishgardian might be racist to Au Ra. A Gridanian might be racist to Keepers and Duskwight. Eorzeans in general will be heavily prejudiced against Garleans. Eorzeans might also discriminate against Ala Mhigans, particularly Gridanians and Ul'dahns. Ala Mhigans might be particularly distasteful of Ul'dah.

 

When you get outside of the realm of ethnic and social conflicts--of which Eorzea does not have very many with the notable exceptions above--a character's reasons for being a racist very quickly boils down into an amalgam of Freudian excuses and anecdotes, which are often as easy to dismiss in RP as they are in real life.

 

I'm not against racism and conflict in RP. I am very much against those things being arbitrary, poorly defined, or difficult to justify.

 

Experiences differ, I suppose. I can't say I've seen many role-players who have handled racism poorly or made it the primary driving point of their character. Nor is anybody suggesting that every other character should be racist or that there needs to be more of it.

 

It's merely a matter of people suggesting that since the setting actively portrays and supports such themes then it'd be pretty great if there was more of it to be found within role-play.

 

Otherwise there's a real risk of stagnation.

[111]

you seriphyn etc.

 

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

 

But it's not just about creating conflict; its about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't arbitrary is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

 

An Ishgardian might be racist to Au Ra. A Gridanian might be racist to Keepers and Duskwight. Eorzeans in general will be heavily prejudiced against Garleans. Eorzeans might also discriminate against Ala Mhigans, particularly Gridanians and Ul'dahns. Ala Mhigans might be particularly distasteful of Ul'dah.

 

When you get outside of the realm of ethnic and social conflicts--of which Eorzea does not have very many with the notable exceptions above--a character's reasons for being a racist very quickly boils down into an amalgam of Freudian excuses and anecdotes, which are often as easy to dismiss in RP as they are in real life.

 

I'm not against racism and conflict in RP. I am very much against those things being arbitrary, poorly defined, or difficult to justify.

 

That's kind of how racism is though. I don't think most contemporary racists could give you a bullet point list of reasons about why they're racist. Most of them probably don't even think they are.

 

I think Racism is often at its core nonsensical, and just brought out by latent fears and worries in populations. I'm not always sure it needs strict lore justifications. Obviously it should make a little sense but 'Fear of the Other' is often reason enough.

[V'aleera]

I think Racism is often at its core nonsensical, and just brought out by latent fears and worries in populations. I'm not always sure it needs strict lore justifications. Obviously it should make a little sense but 'Fear of the Other' is often reason enough.

Playing an nationalist Ishgardian is extremely fun because it's nonsensical and lacks logical justification.

[ShoggMommy]

Experiences differ' date=' I suppose. I can't say I've seen many role-players who have handled racism poorly or made it the primary driving point of their character. Nor is anybody suggesting that every other character [i']should[/i] be racist or that there needs to be more of it.

 

It's merely a matter of people suggesting that since the setting actively portrays and supports such themes then it'd be pretty great if there was more of it to be found within role-play.

 

Otherwise there's a real risk of stagnation.

 

Unfortunately I have seen this, a little in XIV; but extremely so in a different game that I played for a few years. The biggest problem I have with rping racism, is that I have seen it go very over the top. People -have- used it as an excuse to play the "My character is racist not me tee-hee so I'll use the character as a weapon to attack you and pretend that I'm not responsible." Keep in mind; this is completely different than having a racist character. This is not ic-blurring on the part of the person who gets targeted. It gets very old.

 

We as rpers -have- control over our characters. Using them as a weapon to attack other players, which I have personally seen; is screwed up. And it does happen. I've dealt with it, I've seen other people purposefully targeted. There are people who do this and it sucks. This is not to say that you do it Graeham, I've seen enough of your posts to know that for you- you use it as a plot device.

 

Regrettably there are those who use it to incite drama and overall be a jackass hiding behind a character.

[Marisa]

you seriphyn etc.

 

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

 

But it's not just about creating conflict; its about making conflict that is compelling and believable. The thing with racism and prejudice in Eorzea is that as far as the general population goes, creating a character who is racist for reasons that aren't arbitrary is rather difficult because the setting emphasizes a mingling of cultures and a certain open-mindedness that comes from being constantly exposed to different races and customs.

 

An Ishgardian might be racist to Au Ra. A Gridanian might be racist to Keepers and Duskwight. Eorzeans in general will be heavily prejudiced against Garleans. Eorzeans might also discriminate against Ala Mhigans, particularly Gridanians and Ul'dahns. Ala Mhigans might be particularly distasteful of Ul'dah.

 

When you get outside of the realm of ethnic and social conflicts--of which Eorzea does not have very many with the notable exceptions above--a character's reasons for being a racist very quickly boils down into an amalgam of Freudian excuses and anecdotes, which are often as easy to dismiss in RP as they are in real life.

 

I'm not against racism and conflict in RP. I am very much against those things being arbitrary, poorly defined, or difficult to justify.

 

As someone who is, admittedly, a little bit racist in the real world, I can assure you that most prejudices are arbitrary. Example, why do I think more favorably about Chinese immigrants than Japanese immigrants? Because the one Japanese guy I know is a jackass, and the couple Chinese people I know are super nice. I based my entire perception of those races off those few people because that's just how the human mind works. So yeah, if the first Au Ra I ever met rubbed me the wrong way, I'd subconsciously start to dislike all of them until somebody changed my mind otherwise.

[Dravus]

Experiences differ, I suppose. I can't say I've seen many role-players who have handled racism poorly or made it the primary driving point of their character. Nor is anybody suggesting that every other character should be racist or that there needs to be more of it.

 

It's merely a matter of people suggesting that since the setting actively portrays and supports such themes then it'd be pretty great if there was more of it to be found within role-play.

 

Otherwise there's a real risk of stagnation.

 

Unfortunately I have seen this, a little in XIV; but extremely so in a different game that I played for a few years. The biggest problem I have with rping racism, is that I have seen it go very over the top. People -have- used it as an excuse to play the "My character is racist not me tee-hee so I'll use the character as a weapon to attack you and pretend that I'm not responsible." Keep in mind; this is completely different than having a racist character. This is not ic-blurring on the part of the person who gets targeted. It gets very old.

 

We as rpers -have- control over our characters. Using them as a weapon to attack other players, which I have personally seen; is screwed up. And it does happen. I've dealt with it, I've seen other people purposefully targeted. There are people who do this and it sucks. This is not to say that you do it Graeham, I've seen enough of your posts to know that for you- you use it as a plot device.

 

Regrettably there are those who use it to incite drama and overall be a jackass hiding behind a character.

 

Fair point. I don't doubt that it happens - I've seen something similar play out myself in the past but in that case it was more a matter of people using their character's IC influence within the community to deliberately screw over the characters of people they didn't like OOC.

 

On my end Graeham isn't really racist, largely because he's experienced discrimination first hand based on his heritage and he's striving to unite Eorzea (and potentially the lands beyond) which would only work if he could stomach the differences between the various races and cultures.

 

So I'm mostly debating from the perspective of someone who really wants more foils/obstacles to overcome IC. I'm pretty fond of 'grit' in my role-play. Not in excess, though, and certainly not at the cost of losing out on the more lighthearted stuff.

[Nero]

As someone who is, admittedly, a little bit racist in the real world, I can assure you that most prejudices are arbitrary. Example, why do I think more favorably about Chinese immigrants than Japanese immigrants? Because the one Japanese guy I know is a jackass, and the couple Chinese people I know are super nice. I based my entire perception of those races off those few people because that's just how the human mind works. So yeah, if the first Au Ra I ever met rubbed me the wrong way, I'd subconsciously start to dislike all of them until somebody changed my mind otherwise.

 

That's kind of how racism is though. I don't think most contemporary racists could give you a bullet point list of reasons about why they're racist. Most of them probably don't even think they are.

 

I think Racism is often at its core nonsensical, and just brought out by latent fears and worries in populations. I'm not always sure it needs strict lore justifications. Obviously it should make a little sense but 'Fear of the Other' is often reason enough.

 

To further clarify my point, I'm not disputing the irrationality or unaccountable nature of racism and the concept of prejudice as a whole. I think most everyone can agree that such things are inherently a byproduct of the unreasonableness that resides in every human brain. What I am saying is that if you intend to play the "racist" character trait for meaningful drama, having that racism be arbitrary or nonsensical effectively kills that drama and makes it trite and banal.

 

Graeham's prejudice against Garleans example is a specimen of a character trait being substantial in its makeup that can lend itself to compelling conflict.

 

Saying your character hates Lalafells because the Lalafells keep screwing them over on shop prices is barely enough to warrant a footnote in a character's trivia section.

 

Perhaps I'm merely beating the dead horse so vigorously that I'm mistaking its necrotic twitching for signs of life, but my end point remains: it's not unreasonable in the slightest to ask for variety and accurate representation of the setting by playing as a racist or prejudiced character. But if you intend to make that racism or prejudice important in a narrative, then the trait of that racism or prejudice has to be set up in a way that is significant to not only the character, but the audience as well, and Eorzea does not have too many avenues for that besides the aforementioned ethnic conflicts.

 

An Ala Mhigan being racist to Au Ra? A Limsa Lominsan being racist to a Dunesfolk Lalafell? A Gridanian being racist to a Seeker Miqo'te? An Ul'dahn being racist to a Hellsguard? These are things that have to be well-defined beyond Freudian excuse and lame anecdotal evidence to be taken the slightest bit seriously within the setting or at the least, within a narrative. Otherwise, the prejudice seems forcibly shoehorned and awkward and only serves to make the character as a whole less believable.

[ShoggMommy]

Fair point. I don't doubt that it happens - I've seen something similar play out myself in the past but in that case it was more a matter of people using their character's IC influence within the community to deliberately screw over the characters of people they didn't like OOC.

 

On my end Graeham isn't really racist, largely because he's experienced discrimination first hand based on his heritage and he's striving to unite Eorzea (and potentially the lands beyond) which would only work if he could stomach the differences between the various races and cultures.

 

So I'm mostly debating from the perspective of someone who really wants more foils/obstacles to overcome IC. I'm pretty fond of 'grit' in my role-play. Not in excess, though, and certainly not at the cost of losing out on the more lighthearted stuff.

 

Oh no, I don't doubt you. I also totally understand, I play dark themes personally as well. I mean I wouldn't be playing a DRK icly if I didn't enjoy darker themes. I also think racism has a place in the game. My miqo'te is racist and she is sexist in some regards. My dislike however comes at a broader aspect where I've seen it done very over the top and without good context as Nero has pointed out.

[Caspar]

you seriphyn etc.

Racist characters are interesting - especially if they have a good reason to be the way that they are. A soldier who fought against the Garlean invaders and lost his comrades during the Battle of Carteanau is very likely to distrust anyone and anything related to the Garlean Empire.

 

So when that soldier meets a Garlean who happens to be reasonable and morally pure...there's a good deal of room for interesting conflict in my opinion.

Pretty much this. Obviously, we should not take things too far and respect the OOC wishes of others (communication is key here), but there is definitely value in RPing themes that are not necessarily pleasant. It's not about making things as grimdark and heavy-handed as possible - it's about creating conflict, which is hella fun to RP and really great for character interactions and development. Racial, national, and social tensions are a great way to introduce a good, healthy dose of conflict into your RP whilst fitting in nicely with the setting of the game.

I totally agree, and I also agree with what Nero said. Personally I feel the problem is not that the players don't represent the setting, but rather that it seems more important to create conflict in an interesting way. Use racism as a narrative tool to bring insular characters into the same sphere. I think there is enough to support an open-minded, non racist attitude in a PC in the setting, as well as xenophobic hater. What matters more to me is whether or not the player can sell it, not whether everyone is in line and trying to stay appropriately loyal to some Westeros-esque headcanon.

 

For instance, if a character is horribly racist against a certain type, a "biased narrator" within emote dialogue can often hint at a greater, more personal malaise that leads them to lash out irrationally. (It's also been mentioned before that it does a great job at reassuring other players you don't share your character's belief system, if you're worried about that sort of thing.) It is not enough to simply throw slurs. Describing the way they look when they fixate on their xenophobia or how obsessive they are about it could suggest problems in their personal life with people of that race, or an upbringing that twisted their worldview. Maybe that curmudgeonly racist takes the usual, under the skin tension of Eorzea to open hatred levels because her father left her mother for a wandering Sea Wolf, or was bullied by roving bands of lalafell when she was a child. It obviously doesn't need to be that personal, but the point isn't really the content so much as your motivation for writing racism into your character. Are you doing it because it's how you see the setting, or because you want people to challenge your character and create a dialogue between theirs and yours? When I made my character, I *intended* for her to be proven wrong about a lot of things in her world view. People jumped onto the opportunity to "defuse the tykebomb" and tell her she is wrong about violence and the like, without me making any real effort to tell them, OOC, I wanted them to. It is not impossible that others aren't challenging your character's dogma because you're not expressing you want them to have their beliefs challenged clearly enough.

 

It will be more fun for all involved to slowly bring out that characteristic. It creates a story, where your character's racism is engaged with, and you determine whether they move beyond it, or not at all, and what kind of consequences it has. It isn't about setting building in this case, but rather using the setting to build a plot line. In the former case with OP, I feel the focus is more on getting players to reinforce common views on the setting to create a homogeneous, even playing field with consistent rules, a commonly echoed sentiment on the forums. Before people go and say I'm accusing them of policing, I would argue it's not even anything that effective; more like ineffectual hand-wringing over other people not being NPCs for you. They want to tell their story, not yours, unless you talk to them and meet them halfway. That's why someone suggests that other players want to ignore the setting, I argue it's more a matter of playing style and focusing on what interests the person in question than willful ignorance.

 

It is difficult to play with rp that confuses or invalidates your own. I get that. A huge amount of my old forum rp was done in a hideously inconsistent crossover setting. It drove me absolutely crazy to see a lot of people ignore the existence of the supernatural when there were people summoning out of the Goetia and wielding shamanistic magic next door. Some wanted to play the world as basically like ours, and others wanted a cyberpunk dystopia. Midgar and Chiba City existed in the same world as New York and Tokyo. Operators with CoD style guns fought alongside demigods and shinigami. It was, to put it in less polite terms, a clusterfuck.

 

That setting was incredibly bare bones and vague, plus player generated. There was no baseline. Trying to force a baseline behavior among players to fit your own perception of the setting isn't necessary here, though. The game itself already exists. We're all aware, or should owe it to ourselves, to try and pay attention to it, or there is no point in rp in FFXIV. That doesn't mean we've all obligated to play every element, or respond to every element, in the same way as everyone else. Moving away from whether or not someone fits the setting and towards how a character element, informed by the setting, can create interesting conflict, will solve that sticking point, in my opinion. The focus should be on how it can create the framework of a story rather than how to make people fit into the setting properly.

[UntrueCrystal]

As someone who is, admittedly, a little bit racist in the real world, I can assure you that most prejudices are arbitrary. Example, why do I think more favorably about Chinese immigrants than Japanese immigrants? Because the one Japanese guy I know is a jackass, and the couple Chinese people I know are super nice. I based my entire perception of those races off those few people because that's just how the human mind works. So yeah, if the first Au Ra I ever met rubbed me the wrong way, I'd subconsciously start to dislike all of them until somebody changed my mind otherwise.

 

That's kind of how racism is though. I don't think most contemporary racists could give you a bullet point list of reasons about why they're racist. Most of them probably don't even think they are.

 

I think Racism is often at its core nonsensical, and just brought out by latent fears and worries in populations. I'm not always sure it needs strict lore justifications. Obviously it should make a little sense but 'Fear of the Other' is often reason enough.

 

To further clarify my point, I'm not disputing the irrationality or unaccountable nature of racism and the concept of prejudice as a whole. I think most everyone can agree that such things are inherently a byproduct of the unreasonableness that resides in every human brain. What I am saying is that if you intend to play the "racist" character trait for meaningful drama, having that racism be arbitrary or nonsensical effectively kills that drama and makes it trite and banal.

 

Graeham's prejudice against Garleans example is a specimen of a character trait being substantial in its makeup that can lend itself to compelling conflict.

 

Saying your character hates Lalafells because the Lalafells keep screwing them over on shop prices is barely enough to warrant a footnote in a character's trivia section.

 

Perhaps I'm merely beating the dead horse so vigorously that I'm mistaking its necrotic twitching for signs of life, but my end point remains: it's not unreasonable in the slightest to ask for variety and accurate representation of the setting by playing as a racist or prejudiced character. But if you intend to make that racism or prejudice important in a narrative, then the trait of that racism or prejudice has to be set up in a way that is significant to not only the character, but the audience as well, and Eorzea does not have too many avenues for that besides the aforementioned ethnic conflicts.

 

An Ala Mhigan being racist to Au Ra? A Limsa Lominsan being racist to a Dunesfolk Lalafell? A Gridanian being racist to a Seeker Miqo'te? An Ul'dahn being racist to a Hellsguard? These are things that have to be well-defined beyond Freudian excuse and lame anecdotal evidence to be taken the slightest bit seriously within the setting or at the least, within a narrative. Otherwise, the prejudice seems forcibly shoehorned and awkward and only serves to make the character as a whole less believable.

 

I've seen a few Ala Mhigan refugees being racist towards Au Ra now and each time I roll my eyes so hard they fall out. Not only is there little to no lore supporting anyone being against theyr arrival in Eorzea (barring Ishgard for their obvious Dragon-y traits, but even that is never addressed by the setting itself), but the irony is thick enough to cut with a knife.

 

Like I said, people invent things to make their characters dark and gritty because they assume that also makes them interesting. It doesn't. Not everything is Game of Thrones nor should it be.

[ShoggMommy]

I've seen a few Ala Mhigan refugees being racist towards Au Ra now and each time I roll my eyes so hard they fall out. Not only is there little to no lore supporting anyone being against theyr arrival in Eorzea (barring Ishgard for their obvious Dragon-y traits, but even that is never addressed by the setting itself), but the irony is thick enough to cut with a knife.

 

While I do agree with points you have made in this thread; I do tend to think that it is acceptable for people to mistake Au ra for dragons or void sent. The MC and the player base as a whole has faced dragons and void sent before. So I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility to mistake the Au ra as dragons/voidsent.

 

Now if you play the DRK line you see that there is a -lot- of hate toward the Au ra by Ishgardians and that extent of racism -is- addressed to the point of brutality against the Au ra. But to say anything more would be heavy spoiler so I will hold back in that regard.