Riven Posted August 31, 2015 Share #1 Posted August 31, 2015 Need a bit of a Cliffs' Notes version of the Ishgardian Houses, any rivalries, and on Dragoons in general if possible? You all were really helpful when I put together my little summoner. Also-I've noticed there are Hyur in Ishgard. Any idea where they came from or do they live in surrounding areas? Link to comment
Sylastair Posted August 31, 2015 Share #2 Posted August 31, 2015 Need a bit of a Cliffs' Notes version of the Ishgardian Houses, any rivalries, and on Dragoons in general if possible? You all were really helpful when I put together my little summoner. Also-I've noticed there are Hyur in Ishgard. Any idea where they came from or do they live in surrounding areas? Well, if you haven't checked this out I highly recommend giving it a gloss over, since the wiki has a lot of info (cliff notes style ) on the houses, history and etc. (CAREFUL! There are spoilers on said page). As for Hyur in Ishgard, the city was founded by Elezen but I do not have the time at which more Hyur began to make there way there. Culturally I think it is agreed upon that Hyur are accepted, though still looked down on socially/politically. There is a bit of rivalry between the Houses, from pieces I've seen in the MSQ and a few of the crafting/gathering classes, but I don't have a lot on me at the moment to provide proof/snippets. As for Dragoons, well, here is where it gets tricky. As many here will tell you and you can see in game, Dragoon is an honorific title for anyone who kills a 'true' dragon (so the little fliers don't count ). So, a character can be a Knight of Ishgard then kill a dragon and be given the title Dragoon. Where the issue really comes in is the use of their "jumps" since a lot of the how it is done or lore behind it is unknown, and the training of 'Dragoons' to fight using such a style is shrouded in secrecy. I personally have been trying to put together a working 'what we know and what makes sense' for Dragoon related combat and abilities, along with a realistic training pipeline length and left/right limits to the strains involved and so on (this is by no means the DEFINITIVE answer btw, just my thoughts and attempts to codify what I can so take it with a grain of salt ). If you have questions or anything feel free to hit me up and I can help where I can. I'd also advise checking out the Ishgard LS since you have a lot of smart lore minds in there to lend a hand! Link to comment
Oli! Posted August 31, 2015 Share #3 Posted August 31, 2015 Need a bit of a Cliffs' Notes version of the Ishgardian Houses, any rivalries, and on Dragoons in general if possible? You all were really helpful when I put together my little summoner. Also-I've noticed there are Hyur in Ishgard. Any idea where they came from or do they live in surrounding areas? As for Hyur in Ishgard, the city was founded by Elezen but I do not have the time at which more Hyur began to make there way there. Culturally I think it is agreed upon that Hyur are accepted, though still looked down on socially/politically. I don't know if they're particularly looked down upon, but they don't have that much political power. There are a lot of humans in the city, however, and based on their various locations throughout both Foundation and the Pillars, as well as their varying styles of dress, they definitely occupy positions going from the poor, to the wealthy merchant-class. They are second-citizens in the sense that they aren't allowed to have any political power (all positions of great political importance are held firmly by Elezen), but I don't think we have any examples of them experiencing any great amount of discrimination, at least not from what I've seen. Link to comment
V'aleera Posted August 31, 2015 Share #4 Posted August 31, 2015 Most signs point to Ishgard being more so xenophobic and classist than racist. A Garlean immigrant is one step below the highest military office after all. Link to comment
Sylastair Posted August 31, 2015 Share #5 Posted August 31, 2015 Most signs point to Ishgard being more so xenophobic and classist than racist. A Garlean immigrant is one step below the highest military office after all. This. I guess "looked down on" holds certain implications. Regardless, I would agree that this is a very apt way of looking at race as it relates to Ishgard. /twocents+highfive Link to comment
Sounsyy Posted August 31, 2015 Share #6 Posted August 31, 2015 Need a bit of a Cliffs' Notes version of the Ishgardian Houses, any rivalries, and on Dragoons in general if possible? You all were really helpful when I put together my little summoner. Also-I've noticed there are Hyur in Ishgard. Any idea where they came from or do they live in surrounding areas? You might find this thread on Ishgardian Social Structure very helpful! It covers the High Houses and Lesser Nobility and where Hyur and Dragoons fit into that hierarchy. As for Dragoons themselves, they are very simply knights and nobles who have slain at least one true dragon and shown proof of the deed. Slaying a dragon awards a significant amount of prestige and oftentimes is used to propel lowborns into positions of Lesser Nobility. Hope this helps! ^^ Link to comment
Riven Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted August 31, 2015 Need a bit of a Cliffs' Notes version of the Ishgardian Houses, any rivalries, and on Dragoons in general if possible? You all were really helpful when I put together my little summoner. Also-I've noticed there are Hyur in Ishgard. Any idea where they came from or do they live in surrounding areas? You might find this thread on Ishgardian Social Structure very helpful! It covers the High Houses and Lesser Nobility and where Hyur and Dragoons fit into that hierarchy. As for Dragoons themselves, they are very simply knights and nobles who have slain at least one true dragon and shown proof of the deed. Slaying a dragon awards a significant amount of prestige and oftentimes is used to propel lowborns into positions of Lesser Nobility. Hope this helps! ^^ It actually does, ha ha! So far what I've got for my character seems to be pretty on par with what's possible in the lore, yay. Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #8 Posted August 31, 2015 Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably... Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. Everyone else has got it down. .... You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >> 1 Link to comment
Oli! Posted August 31, 2015 Share #9 Posted August 31, 2015 Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably... Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. Everyone else has got it down. .... You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >> Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: we have implications within the story that high-level Dragoon powers / magic may require Ishgardian blood if you don't have access to a dragon eye but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business. Link to comment
Warren Castille Posted August 31, 2015 Share #10 Posted August 31, 2015 People give non-elezen/hyur dragoons too much flak, given what we know about the title "dragoon." There's the Capital D Dragon Soul version and there's the rank/title given to anyone regarded as having slain a dragon, as Sounsyy mentioned. Link to comment
Oli! Posted August 31, 2015 Share #11 Posted August 31, 2015 People give non-elezen/hyur dragoons too much flak, given what we know about the title "dragoon." There's the Capital D Dragon Soul version and there's the rank/title given to anyone regarded as having slain a dragon, as Sounsyy mentioned. Those are fine. But I think usually when people talk about non-Elezen / Hyur dragoons, they're talking about "I jump around and have a lance and the spiky armor and Dragon Magic" sort of Dragoon. Which is riskier. Technically anyone can be a "Dragoon" title-wise if they bring proof that they killed a dragon to officials in Ishgard. Link to comment
Verad Posted August 31, 2015 Share #12 Posted August 31, 2015 What's going to happen is that the only people to question them will be OOC pedants. All somebody making a non-standard Dragoon will have to deal with are "helpful" tells. Link to comment
Warren Castille Posted August 31, 2015 Share #13 Posted August 31, 2015 What's going to happen is that the only people to question them will be OOC pedants. All somebody making a non-standard Dragoon will have to deal with are "helpful" tells. 100% correct. Most of the time the people telling others what they can or can't do have plenty of questionable content in their own stories. As always with fiction, if it's written well people won't care about bending. Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #14 Posted August 31, 2015 I said it's possible. But unlikely and a lot of people do it and wonder why characters interact with them and they are ICly questioned, etc. ......Anyone in the Ishgard RP LS who was on that one time will know the conversation I'm referring to but it really isn't a "follow your dreams and they will come true" thing.... Link to comment
Oli! Posted August 31, 2015 Share #15 Posted August 31, 2015 Personally I think it's okay to question whatever you want. I don't think questioning something makes you a horrible person, or otherwise awful. It's entirely possible that they're questioning for the sake of good intentions. If someone shuts you out of their life for the sake of a question, then maybe they're not the best, but when handled alright, I think it's fine. Personally, I'd question it if I were asked about it, but I wouldn't shut anyone out over it. I feel like we might be jumping on the "all questions are bad" train a little too quickly. Link to comment
Chris Ganale Posted August 31, 2015 Share #16 Posted August 31, 2015 There's always Tahz's way: be a fake DRG. Hit the ceiling of his generic lancer training, went to Ishgard because that's where everyone says the super-lancers hang out, found an old Fortemps (that part is important) guard captain who was suitably moved by his desire to improve to protect his girl, and agreed to give him some on-the-low training. Nets him pretty much all of the pre-50 DRG skills, but you put him next to an actual DRG and he'll look laughably incompetent, as what happened when he saw real DRGs in action at the Steps of Faith. He can jump really far and nail things with reasonable accuracy, but supersonic human cruise missile he ain't. Yet. Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #17 Posted August 31, 2015 I've seen a lot of fake DRGs and it's worked. My character is not a dragoon...he's Ishgardian and will question you. But he's also a paranoid nutcase >> I know people OOCly get mad about IC questions (which I've seen) or even get offended by this topic in OOC discussions so... I donno, I always RP based around what I see within the world given to me. If I don't see NPCs somewhere then I will use that as a hint. I'm always iffy about bending the lore...the one time I did it, it was confirmed as something in 3.0 (Ashe's aether sight in one eye and how it physically affects him when he uses it, etc.) So yeah, just be prepared for that but it's not impossible!!! Ishgardians and dragoons are cool crazy butts in general. Link to comment
Chris Ganale Posted August 31, 2015 Share #18 Posted August 31, 2015 That said, I am going to be changing one of my unused alts into a proper Ishgardian DRG here soon. I think I smell a training opportunity for dear R'tahz. Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #19 Posted August 31, 2015 Haha nice nice! The non-Ishgardian dragoons argument is my favorite can of worms to open. That being said, I love Ishgard lore (and Allagan lore)...if you ever want to RP or have questions let me know xPP Link to comment
Sylastair Posted August 31, 2015 Share #20 Posted August 31, 2015 Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably... Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. Everyone else has got it down. .... You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >> Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: we have implications within the story that high-level Dragoon powers / magic may require Ishgardian blood if you don't have access to a dragon eye but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business. Speaking to your Spoiler: The issue there is the fact that then only Elezen should be capable of being Dragoons/The Azure Dragoon. We do however have Hyur Dragoons and a Hyur Azre Dragoon, meaning the blood piece doesn't really hold up. Link to comment
Oli! Posted August 31, 2015 Share #21 Posted August 31, 2015 Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably... Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. Everyone else has got it down. .... You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >> Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: we have implications within the story that high-level Dragoon powers / magic may require Ishgardian blood if you don't have access to a dragon eye but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business. Speaking to your Spoiler: The issue there is the fact that then only Elezen should be capable of being Dragoons/The Azure Dragoon. We do however have Hyur Dragoons and a Hyur Azre Dragoon, meaning the blood piece doesn't really hold up. Not exactly. As stated, with the Eye, you can be granted all the super duper leaping powers. We also know that all powerful dragons have power-granting eyes, so if you have one, you could theoretically be indistinguishable from an Azure Dragoon. Therefore, Dragon Eyes can grant power to everyone. That would explain a human Azure Dragoon. As for the human Dragoons that we see elsewhere, I don't know if we know if they have Dragon Magic or not, or whether the ability to leap is indicative of that at all. Link to comment
Volk Posted August 31, 2015 Share #22 Posted August 31, 2015 Also....non-Elezen Dragoons are rare. Hyurs are possible. But don't go making any Au Ra Dragoons or Miqo'te Dragoons without a bit of backlash. You also have to be trained by a regular dragoon and you have to be recognized by the Holy See and for a city known for just straight up killing Au Ra on sight in the past, you won't be met with open arms as one now still probably... Also, there is only one Azure Dragoon. So don't be that haha. Everyone else has got it down. .... You CAN be a non-Elezen/Hyur Non-Ishgardian Dragoon I GUESS.......but like....Don't do it if you're not willing to be questioned about it ICly and OOCly >> Have a Good Excuse is the game here. Personally, I wouldn't do it, especially since: we have implications within the story that high-level Dragoon powers / magic may require Ishgardian blood if you don't have access to a dragon eye but it's entirely possible to just be a Lancer, or maybe pay someone from Ishgard for training in everything except what's in the spoiler box. The game then becomes "why would they train YOU," however, so it's still risky business. Speaking to your Spoiler: The issue there is the fact that then only Elezen should be capable of being Dragoons/The Azure Dragoon. We do however have Hyur Dragoons and a Hyur Azre Dragoon, meaning the blood piece doesn't really hold up. Miqo'te, pls. Kidding ! I agree; just because I haven't seen a certain race or nationality be dragoon in the MSQ does not mean to me that it cannot be so unless explicitly explained otherwise . . Or at least that is how I see it. I feel like there are one million different reasons, methods, ways that this knowledge could have been imparted to non-locals or those of exotic race. Just my opinion - but if you have a concept that is not just. . . mental - GO FOR IT. You do not need to justify yourself to anyone else unless you want to : > #MamaDahlmelSpreadsDRGLove Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #23 Posted August 31, 2015 I play by the rule that if you haven't seen it in the MSQ or in the towns around you, it probably doesn't exist...There should be no miqo'te in Ishgard as Ishgardian citizens. Like...period. There are no non-outside people in Ishgard who are Miqo'te. At all. The knowledge CAN be imparted but if you're a miqo'te or Au Ra you need the Holy See to recognize your achievements which, as an outsider, it's like 1) why would you ICly care and 2) why would the Holy See care. You can have all the power and knowledge but if the people it matters to will most likely not recognize it then what's the point. The whole non-Elezen/Hyur Dragoons thing IS mental in my opinion but people CAN go for it. Ahhhh~ This is my favorite can of worms for a reason~ ....Next to the WHM/BLM one. That's my second favorite can of worms. 1 Link to comment
Riven Posted August 31, 2015 Author Share #24 Posted August 31, 2015 Well, my guy is Ishgardian hyur-more or less born and raised there. Joined a House guard when he was of age, and a few years later the incident that got him to dragoon/dragoon training happened. (Still properly fleshing things out. Also I fully blame oocly Steps of Faith with that gd amazing track for partly inspiring me @-@) Link to comment
Ashe Posted August 31, 2015 Share #25 Posted August 31, 2015 Hahaha SoF made me level Dragoon >.< My character is an Ishgardian who hates Ishgard so not ICly a dragoon but I was like LORE LORE LORE!!!! ^ loser So yeah....There's plenty of lore in 3.0 and Dragoon quests to go around and even 2.4+ You can do it! I believe in you!!! Link to comment
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