Selling housing now illegal?

[Kellach Woods]

Just had another thought - What if it was only permitted because they hadn't put in anything that cleared up unused plots?

[Kage]

Just had another thought - What if it was only permitted because they hadn't put in anything that cleared up unused plots?

It's very possible. Also possible that the 'public outrage' on the Balmung PF when RareX reporting caused them to change their policy.

[LiadansWhisper]

It is either that or they clearly care primarily for their JP customer base only. Or, as said earlier, possibly said team doesn't speak English well on the GM department.

 

They appear to have gotten better over time, but their forum moderation team is hit or miss at best. I'm still convinced that the majority of forum moderators in the NA English section don't actually speak English as their first language, or well at all.

[LiadansWhisper]

The FC leader in this instance is one of those I honestly would not mind naming and shaming on the official forum or here but alas.

 

Unfortunately, in this instance, I do not believe the GM even knew what the problem (what kept everyone from just leaving) is or was. They didn't have the power to do anything about the housing keeping them locked issue (I'm at work but I've read a few things here or there about what usual powers GMs have and don't have.) but they really should have dealt with the issue involved with the FC leader griefing people.

 

Tiergan, with Tiergan's FC help, was only able to recreate the issue in a -very specific- circumstance. Guest Access to the Estate must be turned off. The GMs, most likely as most of us didn't know, that people couldn't remove furnishings if they have 0 privileges, No Estate Hall Access -AND- Guests cannot enter the estate.

 

Okay, but, it's been known for literally months that an FC Leader could do this. If they lock you out of the house, you can't reclaim your shit, if you can't reclaim your shit, you can't demolish your room. If you can't demolish your room, you can't leave the FC. This was known literally on day 1 of the patch that implemented private rooms in FC houses.

 

The idea that a GM - a freaking Game Master - could simply be unaware that this was possible is, quite frankly, inexcusable. Do they not play the same game that we play? Are they stupid? Is support composed of three baboons sitting around playing with their own feces? How in god's name could they just not know? I mean, unless support is composed of blithering idiots?

 

Edited to Add: I think it's a hell of a lot more likely that support simply doesn't have a tool built into their client that would allow them to take control of the FC and rectify the situation. Either that, or they're falling back on the old idea that the FC Leader literally owns the FC and everyone and everything within the house. But that would be dumb.

[Lydia Lightfoot]

The FC leader in this instance is one of those I honestly would not mind naming and shaming on the official forum or here but alas.

 

Unfortunately, in this instance, I do not believe the GM even knew what the problem (what kept everyone from just leaving) is or was. They didn't have the power to do anything about the housing keeping them locked issue (I'm at work but I've read a few things here or there about what usual powers GMs have and don't have.) but they really should have dealt with the issue involved with the FC leader griefing people.

 

Tiergan, with Tiergan's FC help, was only able to recreate the issue in a -very specific- circumstance. Guest Access to the Estate must be turned off. The GMs, most likely as most of us didn't know, that people couldn't remove furnishings if they have 0 privileges, No Estate Hall Access -AND- Guests cannot enter the estate.

 

Okay, but, it's been known for literally months that an FC Leader could do this.  If they lock you out of the house, you can't reclaim your shit, if you can't reclaim your shit, you can't demolish your room.  If you can't demolish your room, you can't leave the FC.  This was known literally on day 1 of the patch that implemented private rooms in FC houses.

 

The idea that a GM - a freaking Game Master - could simply be unaware that this was possible is, quite frankly, inexcusable.  Do they not play the same game that we play?  Are they stupid?  Is support composed of three baboons sitting around playing with their own feces?  How in god's name could they just not know?  I mean, unless support is composed of blithering idiots?

 

Edited to Add: I think it's a hell of a lot more likely that support simply doesn't have a tool built into their client that would allow them to take control of the FC and rectify the situation.  Either that, or they're falling back on the old idea that the FC Leader literally owns the FC and everyone and everything within the house.  But that would be dumb.

 

I'm going with "they don't play the game", but that's because I'm generally convinced that game developers, distributors, support staff, etc, don't play the games they make/sell/service. There's just too many layers of false promises, awkward design, glaring yet unsolved bugs, and general incompetence throughout the industry for me to have any other conclusion.

[Aldotsk]

The FC leader in this instance is one of those I honestly would not mind naming and shaming on the official forum or here but alas.

 

Unfortunately, in this instance, I do not believe the GM even knew what the problem (what kept everyone from just leaving) is or was. They didn't have the power to do anything about the housing keeping them locked issue (I'm at work but I've read a few things here or there about what usual powers GMs have and don't have.) but they really should have dealt with the issue involved with the FC leader griefing people.

 

Tiergan, with Tiergan's FC help, was only able to recreate the issue in a -very specific- circumstance. Guest Access to the Estate must be turned off. The GMs, most likely as most of us didn't know, that people couldn't remove furnishings if they have 0 privileges, No Estate Hall Access -AND- Guests cannot enter the estate.

 

The idea that a GM - a freaking Game Master - could simply be unaware that this was possible is, quite frankly, inexcusable.  Do they not play the same game that we play?  Are they stupid?  Is support composed of three baboons sitting around playing with their own feces?  How in god's name could they just not know?  I mean, unless support is composed of blithering idiots?

 

I'll say that 40-50% of GMs in MMORPGs never played the game. But also, some of the GMs in FF14 are pretty oblivious too. I've heard about the story of that FC being by ransoming for gil for members to get out by holding them as hostage to lock the access from ever removing their rooms from their FC house. It really sucks.

 

But it is also true that in the terms of agreements that players cannot ticket reports for someone else since that is considered of "disadvantage support". Which is stupid. I remember I tried to ticket for someone else in regards to unrelated to this topic, but it was rejected since the GM pretty much brought up ToA.

 

I've had good GMs and I've had really bad dumb GMs. But I feel like most of them are just following by the policy way too much that they don't want to take action to help the members who desperately need assistance.

[Kellach Woods]

It's very possible. Also possible that the 'public outrage' on the Balmung PF when RareX reporting caused them to change their policy.

The turn around on that is way too fast though.

[Kage]

The FC leader in this instance is one of those I honestly would not mind naming and shaming on the official forum or here but alas.

 

Unfortunately, in this instance, I do not believe the GM even knew what the problem (what kept everyone from just leaving) is or was. They didn't have the power to do anything about the housing keeping them locked issue (I'm at work but I've read a few things here or there about what usual powers GMs have and don't have.) but they really should have dealt with the issue involved with the FC leader griefing people.

 

Tiergan, with Tiergan's FC help, was only able to recreate the issue in a -very specific- circumstance. Guest Access to the Estate must be turned off. The GMs, most likely as most of us didn't know, that people couldn't remove furnishings if they have 0 privileges, No Estate Hall Access -AND- Guests cannot enter the estate.

 

Okay, but, it's been known for literally months that an FC Leader could do this.  If they lock you out of the house, you can't reclaim your shit, if you can't reclaim your shit, you can't demolish your room.  If you can't demolish your room, you can't leave the FC.  This was known literally on day 1 of the patch that implemented private rooms in FC houses.

 

The idea that a GM - a freaking Game Master - could simply be unaware that this was possible is, quite frankly, inexcusable.  Do they not play the same game that we play?  Are they stupid?  Is support composed of three baboons sitting around playing with their own feces?  How in god's name could they just not know?  I mean, unless support is composed of blithering idiots?

 

Edited to Add: I think it's a hell of a lot more likely that support simply doesn't have a tool built into their client that would allow them to take control of the FC and rectify the situation.  Either that, or they're falling back on the old idea that the FC Leader literally owns the FC and everyone and everything within the house.  But that would be dumb.

 

What I mean is that a lot of people could not replicate the issue. Even though most of us have played with housing since it came out. No one I knew of could actually describe exactly what was the problem until after this situation happened. So yes I can believe them not knowing -then-. Just because someone says it has happened doesn't mean everyone knows how or what to fix. There were a -lot- of responses saying "uh we just did x y and z and we still were able to remove stuff just fine." "Did they actually even try?" If you have a room, no rights, you can still remove your furnishings, demolish and check yourself out. Even two months afterwards people still go "uh I replicated this myself by putting myself in a rank with 0 privs and had no issues removing furnishings are you sure they were actually locked in?"

 

What I am pretty sure of though is that they didn't have any such tool that would actually remove a leader or change leaders.

 

I have met a few FC leaders who do view the FCs as "theirs" and all the members' accomplishments as theirs when they have done nothing to receive such praise. /salty

 

I've spoken to a few GMs over harassment issues and a few of them (because I can't remember the names of the ones I've spoken to just that they have been different before) have spoken as if they've played the game a bit. But the GMs aren't QA.

[Yssen]

The way all these things have been mishandled I'm really starting to question the Dev team.

 

They have this weird way of forbidding things and then just letting them happen. Parsers were one thing mentioned, Lotteries are another, housing is one too.

 

Basically it encourages people who don't follow the rules, as there are no consequences for breaking them. If you try to do what the GMs want you're going to lose out, as others will jump ahead of you and do it anyway.

 

Even the ability to sell Eternal bond bracelets for money,  Yoshi P was like "Please don't do that" and then took no steps to prevent it. Win trading in PVP is the same way.

 

Things need to be cut and dry, either they're against the ToS or they aren't. Getting real tired of these rules that aren't clear or enforced.

To be fair Parsers are against the ToS, and if they catch using one, kicking a player out of a static based on one, or (and this one is a kicker) parsing someone who does not want to be parsed you will get smacked with a disciplinary action (possibly banning) for it. The caveat here is getting caught and/or reported. Just because they do not have teams of people staring at the data that comes in from the game and jumping on people who use parsers does indicate a failure on the part of the GMs.

 

Think of it like speeding. Most everyone is guilty of speeding in their car at one time or another. Lots of people get away with it. Lots of people getting away with it is not a a valid defense to avoid the consequences of getting caught. Neither is the argument "this is a stupid rule." When the Devs, Yoshi-P, or whoever asks nicely "please don't do that" is is a courtesy, not an invitation to do exactly what they asked you not to do. 

 

Even the way SE goes after RMT is probably a different approach than we would like. Like more than a few MMOs they go after the source of the RMT more fervently than they chase after the people paying money for gil. Not that they don't, mind you. More than a few people (myself included) were asked to explain the giant amounts of gil they had that were carried over from 1.0 (holy crap hi-lvl leve gil back in 1.0) when the game original re-launched. Heck, I've loaned people gil and been locked out of my account (never for more than a few minutes after discovering this, mind you) for "my own protection." The point is, they are more interested in taking measures and disciplinary action against the actual gatherers and sellers of gil, rather than the people that buy it. The five friends a day thing does not hurt us as players nearly as much as it hurts the RMTs.

 

The rules are clear, their enforcement just does not seem to be up to people's standards. We've known that selling property for giant amounts of gil was against the ToS for a while. The same with parsers and other junk. Just because giant amounts of people have not been banned for these various practices does not suddenly make them okay and fair game. Yar.

[Kage]

The rules are clear, their enforcement just does not seem to be up to people's standards. We've known that selling property for giant amounts of gil was against the ToS for a while. The same with parsers and other junk. Just because giant amounts of people have not been banned for these various practices does not suddenly make them okay and fair game. Yar.

 

Uh, as far as I know this has only been made clear in the weeks since Christmas.

[Yssen]

The rules are clear, their enforcement just does not seem to be up to people's standards. We've known that selling property for giant amounts of gil was against the ToS for a while. The same with parsers and other junk. Just because giant amounts of people have not been banned for these various practices does not suddenly make them okay and fair game. Yar.

 

Uh, as far as I know this has only been made clear in the weeks since Christmas.

 

I think it was clear before. It is an issue that has come up elsewhere before, and even here on the RPC months ago. People just had different burdens of proof, which is fine, to each their own. There have been warnings and supposed bannings issued out over selling housing plots pretty much since housing came out. I will grant that it was not scale we are seeing now, but as I said the scale in which something is being enforced has zero bearing as to whether an action is or is not legal. Yar.

[Kellach Woods]

No one had ever really been warned or anything of the sort when that happened though. Just that there was a discrepancy between what someone asked of a GM and what was answered on the forums.

[V'aleera]

In the wake of housing relinquishment and all the real/fake housing resale ads in party finder there have been numerous reports of people getting official warnings placed on their SE/FFXIV accounts by GMs. A bunch of threads were popping up about it on Reddit with screenshots, I will try to look them up when I have time.

[Kage]

Kellach's post follows up on my post meaning that BEFORE DEC 25 2015, there weren't any credible or infallible sources that said people could be reported and warned.

 

The OP image can be, it can not be, a troll image. I will never know since /tell conversations can be faked.

Here, I was actually conversing with osric. I was faking a conversation with Ilwe as Ilwe was in Saint Mocianne Arboretum. Ilwe could not have possibly have sent me that tell and I could not have sent Ilwe the tell.

 

After Christmas aka after a bunch of people reported RareX for their trolling PF with sales, the monday morning (NA time) there were then reports of people getting warnings as I've recorded here (on Page 4)

 

So far head GM has not posted on the official forums.

[Yssen]

That doesn't mean that other people did not ask/and or become aware of it and bring it to others attention before now. I just means people wanted/needed more proof. Which as I have said, is fine. It is more clear now than it was then. Spiffy keen. However, claiming that it was suddenly made against the ToS now is a slightly specious reasoning. It always was, recent events have simply drawn that fact into sharp relief. That is all I am saying.

[LiadansWhisper]

That doesn't mean that other people did not ask/and or become aware of it and bring it to others attention before now. I just means people wanted/needed more proof. Which as I have said, is fine. It is more clear now than it was then. Spiffy keen. However, claiming that it was suddenly made against the ToS now is a slightly specious reasoning. It always was, recent events have simply drawn that fact into sharp relief. That is all I am saying.

 

I recall quite a few instances where one GM claimed it was against the TOS, and another GM claimed it was not. Sorry, but Kage is right.

[Yssen]

That doesn't mean that other people did not ask/and or become aware of it and bring it to others attention before now. I just means people wanted/needed more proof. Which as I have said, is fine. It is more clear now than it was then. Spiffy keen. However, claiming that it was suddenly made against the ToS now is a slightly specious reasoning. It always was, recent events have simply drawn that fact into sharp relief. That is all I am saying.

 

I recall quite a few instances where one GM claimed it was against the TOS, and another GM claimed it was not.  Sorry, but Kage is right.

 

I am not saying it was not unclear. I am saying that it always was not allowed. There is a difference. For a very long time we let artists charge gil for their commissions on this site, until that was made clear as an RMT activity. This situation is similar. It being clear now does not mean they arbitrarily decided it was against the ToS recently. It just means they have been clearer about it now.

[Shofie]

When in doubt, questions like this need to be brought to the official forums where you can hopefully get an answer from a developer. GMs do not always have the most up-to-date information.

 

GMs can and do often contradict one another, and should not always be hailed as a definitive source on things of this nature, especially since it's very easy to misunderstand what people are wanting to know.

[Kage]

After the whole debacle with RareX trolling people...

 

Users on reddit have been reporting being warned for THE TROLL PFs and actual individual WTS housing/plots.

 

Thread on the official forums  still on-going with no Head GM in sight but this looks pretty definitive.

 

 

But also note that GMs are inconsistent

 

Fairly sure that's what I've advocated for with additional updates in between etc.

[S'imba]

Personally I think the violation comes from the section about the violation of hurting the enjoyment of other players. Deciding it to be a more catch all on things to leave up to a the GM's discretionot as to what constitutes a violation. Which in theory is a good idea so they don't have to come up with a strict list of infractions. As well as be able to something about an issue that suddenly comes up that SE forgot to ban. Though the problem with this is the fact that not every GM is going to have the same views as another. So things are not going to be consistent with each other. Which means that we're going to have a mucky grey area. They could probably figure out a way to implement a combination of the two systems. I sreally it somewhat similar to what the advances cardiac life support guidelines say irl. Using a medication in a certain type and location in a heart attack patient isn't written out as a no don't do that rather it says that it should be used with extreme caution I'd at all. Despite the fact that it leaves wiggle room to use it and it's use can be defended by the fact that it's not a definite don't do that. If it goes to court if the people in your field say they would not have given it in that situation then you'll be in violation. I kind of see this the same way, when the devs say we strongly advise against participating in X activity it means you're treading in dangerous waters if it can be proven that by in taking part in that activity hurt the enjoyment of others. 

 

Basically before the trolling incident you could have gotten away with it due to a lower amount of people getting upset about it. Once that occurred they had a lot more proof to justify saying that house selling took away other people's enjoyment. So now they can crack down on it much harder than they did previously. 

 

I'm sure there's a lot of other factors involved such as man power and having other reports to enforce to watch to see if the entire player base is adhering to every single rule. While not a problem on balmung other servers would be swamped with fighting gil sellers. 

 

I may be entirely wrong about all this but it's just my personal thoughts on it. We probably could use a lot more listed violations but at the same time I feel that this offers a lot more freedom as players, just sucks people can't be responsible and take advantage of such a situation to be ass holes rather than just be mature and play nice. Which will end up with them making rules and enforcing them with an iron fist to make sure we are nice to each other.