[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

[Aysun]

From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

 

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

 

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scītan (to defecate, attested only in bescītan, to cover with excrement)

 

Middle English: schītte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

 

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

 

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?

 

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

[Oli!]

Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

 

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

 

 

swive

swīv/

verbarchaichumorous

 

1. have sexual intercourse with.
   

 

It's worth noting that Swive is contemporary with Fuck. The 1907 Slang and Its Analogues, Past and Present, Volume 7 has the earliest citation of Swive (on page 52) being 1383, which roughly lines up with what we found out about Fuck earlier. If we go back to the idea of what we type being turned into "Eorzean" when we press enter, then Fuck and Swive either end up being the same word, or two contemporary words that mean the same thing, so it really comes down to personal flavoring; although one could make the argument that since one appears in the game and the other doesn't, then that one has more of a backing, the argument that the reason why the other does not appear is because it is still considered in poor taste in current society could also be made.

 

It's interesting to note that by the time Slang and Its Analogues, Past and Present, Volume 3 is published in 1893, we already have (from pages 80 to 81) "Fuck," "Fuckable," "Fucker," "Fuck-finger," "Fuck-fist," "Fuck-hole," "Fucking," (with the oldest citation being 1568, curiously), "Fuckish," "Fuckster," and "Fuckstress." I'm sure that's plenty more about that word than anyone really wanted to know.

 

From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

 

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

 

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scītan (to defecate, attested only in bescītan, to cover with excrement)

 

Middle English: schītte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

 

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

 

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?

 

If they mean actual Early-Modern English, that's still pretty dated, as that variation of English was in practice from roughly the 1400s to the 1600s, which would still place it as being Really Old.

 

In a university research project over the summer, myself and about seven or eight other people worked towards making a program that found and corrected missing letters or variant EME spellings, and perhaps surprisingly, out of the thousands of words from various texts that we went through daily for 40 days, not once did we come across "fuck," "swive," or "shit."

 

Since we already know that those words existed during that time, even in print, it's likely that they were still seen as relatively obscene in that time, since they weren't being printed all over the place. Of course, this example is anecdotal in terms of presentation, but there doesn't seem to be an abundance of citations for use of these words anywhere else either.

[Faye]

As Oli already pointed out, most profanity are pretty old words. They are not at all "modern" as you've implied, so for me, it doesn't take from my immersion. The reason "bloody hell" and "swiving" sound like ye olde fantasy profanity is because you don't hear them very often in real life these days--especially if you're in North America--but hearing "fuck" and "whore" out in the real world is not uncommon.

 

There seems to be some misconception that modern profanity is not widely used in medieval or fantasy settings. But I'd credit that to the fact we are, obviously, only exposed to medieval and fantasy settings through different media (be it books, TV, movies, games, etc.). Media is highly censored and has to meet certain rating guidelines--and the more explicit the rating of your content, the more you've narrowed your audience/customers. "Fucking" is going to bump up your rating to a higher age limit (and can't even be aired on cable TV). "Swiving" is not. So a lot of fantasy media, like all media in general, is going to shy away from heavy profanity, and will try to find period-appropriate sounding substitutes instead.

 

Profanity (the same we use now) was probably used just as much, if not more, in olden times as it is now, you're just not going to find that reflected via cable TV or PG-13 movies.

 

As for my feeling on "bad words" used IC? It's perfectly fine in moderation. If every other word that comes out of someone's character's mouth is a curse word, though, I probably won't want to RP with that person and won't think highly of their writing. Sure, you could argue "it's just their character," but I still have to question why they created that character in such a way and what they get out of it OOC to play that character. The same goes for people who curse every other word OOC, really. I don't like feeling like I'm hanging out with a middle-schooler who just learned all his "bad words" and wants to show off to all his friends while his parents aren't home.

[Valence]

I think the issue is less than those words have a place in the setting, and a lot more that people tend to use them on a very gratuitous, over the top, basis.

 

When you tend to always go for the biggest superlative you can find, it eventually dampen a lot its meaning while creating a sort of linguistic discrepancy between people used to that to the point where some of the most extreme words are used on a hourly basis, and people that are not.

 

It's exactly like in cinema if you will: if you start only using close-up after close-up, then it loses its meaning pretty fast, especially when you eventually use one in a more justified moment that will just feel drown in the middle of all the other superfluous, over the top ones. 

 

In short, your enemy here might be less the lexical language used rather than the context in which it is used.

 

Beware of the cheese or you will end up pretty fast in a shoddy cheap pulp cliché.

 

 

Edit: also, one can also have to take into account the tone used by the setting and storytelling itself, and it's pretty bookish/convoluted english I find. Of course, that certainly doesn't prevent players to make the choice to darken their own setting a lot and go for different tones. And then, different tones clash together and can lead to... well. That.

[Kage]

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

[Oli!]

I decided to look up Cunt in that dictionary series I mentioned earlier because I'm basically two years old.

 

On page 230 of the Second Volume, the earliest usage of "Cunt" is cited as 1383. We also get "Cunt-Pensioner," defined as "A male keep ; one who lives by the prostitution of a wife, a mistress, a daughter, or any other female connection," and "Cunt-Struck," defined as "Enamoured of women : who may, in turn, be either COCK-SMITTEN or PRICK-STRUCK"

 

I might be having too much fun searching for curse words in obscure dictionaries.

 

I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite thread on the citadel.

[Pepe]

I think the issue is less than those words have a place in the setting, and a lot more that people tend to use them on a very gratuitous, over the top, basis.

 

When you tend to always go for the biggest superlative you can find, it eventually dampen a lot its meaning while creating a sort of linguistic discrepancy between people used to that to the point where some of the most extreme words are used on a hourly basis, and people that are not.

 

It's exactly like in cinema if you will: if you start only using close-up after close-up, then it loses its meaning pretty fast, especially when you eventually use one in a more justified moment that will just feel drown in the middle of all the other superfluous, over the top ones. 

 

In short, your enemy here might be less the lexical language used rather than the context in which it is used.

 

Beware of the cheese or you will end up pretty fast in a shoddy cheap pulp cliché.

 

 

Edit: also, one can also have to take into account the tone used by the setting and storytelling itself, and it's pretty bookish/convoluted english I find. Of course, that certainly doesn't prevent players to make the choice to darken their own setting a lot and go for different tones. And then, different tones clash together and can lead to... well. That.

 

I'm not sure if you've ever actually spoken to anyone irl.

[Paradox]

Thanks Oli. Now I have to go play mass effect again. Swiving whoreson. >>

 

 

In all seriousness though, man's penchant for profanity has been around for a long long time, and I kind of look forward to seeing just what kind of words get invented as time goes on. I want to be that old guy who says 'well back in my day, we used to call it fucking. You kids and your newfangled slang.'

 

Back on-topic though, the use of certain words being discounted from the game is indeed likely because of the teen rating. I think only Spaceballs got away with that once with Dark Helmet's 'Fuck! Even in the future nothing works!'. Then again, Mel Brooks has always been good at sneaking things out the back door. They use the more archaic words for things like fuck because they actually can. A lot of people are lazy. They won't bother to look up what a lot of the words mean, and more old curses can slide by since they're not under whatever censorship bureau's 'words you absolutely can't say on TV' ratings list. It's just easier to slip them in that way and at the same time give them setting-context. Doesn't mean the other words don't exist. Just means they can't put them in the actual dialogue.

[V'aleera]

Don't have much of an opinion aside from the belief that "fuck" is a little grating and kind of mundane given the copious alternatives given by the game itself. My internal reaction to it when it's used during rp is largely identical to my reaction to someone saying "u wot mate" unironically irl.

 

It's all pretty trivial though, and not really worth addressing when it happens.

[Zezeki]

I just say what I want when I want.

[Oli!]

I couldn't find any earlier, but now that I can, have some more precise dates for "Whore."

 

The earliest seems to be a rendition of the Old Testament from 1275.

[Kage]

A little off-topic but yeah other movies were able to stay PG-13 with multiple uses of the word Fuck as long as it wasn't "I'm going to get to fuck up a ton of bitches in my bed tonight" and more like "I'm stuck on MARS... FUCK!" (Most of them were just 2-3 uses iirc)

 

They used other words or even had situations where you can clearly see that the people are using the word fuck but they're saying it in the car and you're looking at the actor through glass windows. That type of thing.

 

It may be worth a try coming up with a screenshot backed/quest/npc dialogue recorded list of in-game swears but... would make me tired. Someone could have just thought "bloody" was out of place until they saw in-game or a screenshot. Perhaps someone never got to see some other dialogue and thought "that jarred me" Perhaps it's not so jarring and we all just haven't found all them words!

 

Just not fuck though. Cause. Rating.

 

I couldn't find any earlier, but now that I can, have some more precise dates for "Whore."

 

The earliest seems to be a rendition of the Old Testament from 1275.

Well we see whore in game so it is "acceptable" already (whoresons)

 

I will admit... if someone said "I'm gonna cut ye" or "I'm gonna cap yer arse." I may just go "uh" or use "dude" IC.

[LiadansWhisper]

I generally don't try to police other people's language, because well, they're grown adults (ostensibly) and it's not my place.

 

If you're talking about cars in-character, though, I'll probably give you the side eye.

 

*sideeye*

[Oli!]

 

Well we see whore in game so it is "acceptable" already (whoresons)

 

I will admit... if someone said "I'm gonna cut ye" or "I'm gonna cap yer arse." I may just go "uh" or use "dude" IC.

 

 

Yeah, I more posted that tidbit for fun.

 

This second bit brings up something important though, which is that oftentimes people confuse phrases for words. Some words and their meanings are more than old enough to be used in certain settings. However, certain phrases that use them may not be.

 

...But just for fun, let's look at "Pop a cap." It's likely too modern by linguistic standards. I looked it up out of curiosity, and although it does have a few proto-uses according to this thread on the English section of Stackexchange, "pop a cap" in the stated usage can be pinned down to the 2000s.

 

Don't have much of an opinion aside from the belief that "fuck" is a little grating and kind of mundane given the copious alternatives given by the game itself.

 

I've only seen Swive offered as an alternative. The game gives us some other stuff like "Thal's Balls" and what-not, but those don't strictly mean "Fuck," or work in place of any of its derivative uses. "Thal's Balls" would more directly translate to something like "God Damn It," and something like Whoreson would translate to "Son of a Bitch" (or more directly, Son of a Whore).

[Kage]

 

Well we see whore in game so it is "acceptable" already (whoresons)

 

I will admit... if someone said "I'm gonna cut ye" or "I'm gonna cap yer arse." I may just go "uh" or use "dude" IC.

 

 

Yeah, I more posted that tidbit for fun.

 

This second bit brings up something important though, which is that oftentimes people confused phrases for words. Something like "Pop a cap" likely too modern by linguistic standards. I looked it up out of curiosity, and although it does have a few proto-uses according to this thread on the English section of Stackexchange, "pop a cap" in the stated usage can be pinned down to the 2000s.

 

Don't have much of an opinion aside from the belief that "fuck" is a little grating and kind of mundane given the copious alternatives given by the game itself.

 

I've only seen Swive offered as an alternative. The game gives us some other stuff like "Thal's Balls" and what-not, but those don't strictly mean "Fuck," or work in place of any of its derivative uses.

 

I used the phrases more out of the idea that some words are apparently seen "out of place" so by extension those phrases. What about "I'll have to pass." ?

 

Some variations I believe I've seen in-game were "pissing" or "piss off" or "bugger off"

[Pepe]

Don't have much of an opinion aside from the belief that "fuck" is a little grating and kind of mundane given the copious alternatives given by the game itself. My internal reaction to it when it's used during rp is largely identical to my reaction to someone saying "u wot mate" unironically irl.

 

It's all pretty trivial though, and not really worth addressing when it happens.

Using faux British swear words all the time is grating to me because it's something I associate with nerdy 14 year olds, or the type of adult that thinks that type of thing makes them sound sophisticated. There's really nothing to support that our vocabulary has to be hard limited to only what people have canonically said in this rated T game. Until they release some kind of Eorzean dictionary, there's not really any basis to say fuck is as lore breaking as, say, a Miqo'te Dragoon.

[FreelanceWizard]

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

 

That's pretty much how I feel about it. An f-bomb isn't going to ruin my immersion, but I think it's a nice touch to stick to the curses Eorzeans use (as established by what NPCs say). There's a surprising number of options in that regard, and I like to stick to them because I think it feels more true to the setting. L'yhta has a surprisingly dirty mouth at times, as it turns out...

[Oli!]

 

 

 

I used the phrases more out of the idea that some words are apparently seen "out of place" so by extension those phrases. What about "I'll have to pass." ?

 

Some variations I believe I've seen in-game were "pissing" or "piss off" or "bugger off"

 

I haven't come up with anything on "I'll have to pass" or "bugger off," but the angry usage of "piss off," and "pissed off," seems to have come about in US army regiments during World War II, according to multiple sources.

 

"Pissed" meaning "drunk" came about in 1929, according to this, while "pissed" meaning "angry" was an abbreviation of "pissed-off" that came about in 1971.

 

EDIT: This book actually has an entry on Bugger Off. The date it gives is 1922. Bugger itself is cited as appearing in 1555, though under a very different usage than what we mean today. "Bugger" is not cited to refer to an undesireable or lowly person until 1719, and is not cited to be used as an expletive until 1923. This is seemly corroborated by Slang and Its Analogues Volume 1, which as of its publishing in 1890, has no expletive definition for Bugger.

 

SECOND EDIT: This book also cites the earliest usage of Fuck to mean "damaged beyond repair" (i.e. "You fucked it up!") as being 1775, in the UK. Another interesting curiosity.

[111]

I generally don't try to police other people's language, because well, they're grown adults (ostensibly) and it's not my place.

 

If you're talking about cars in-character, though, I'll probably give you the side eye.

 

*sideeye*

What if you're a time travelling allagan.

 

Then you can talk about space ships ICly.

[Kage]

Perhaps I think in too many swears because I keep thinking that I need more profanities than what we see in game. The Twelve variations don't count when your character isn't Religious (but he won't blaspheme the gods either)

[Steel Wolf]

This has been a fun thread to read.

 

One word that I unearthed, though its origin is not completely known to me, is "cocksmanship". Which, as one should suppose, is defined as a man's sexual performance--a dirty play on "swordsmanship".

 

I have had a devil of a time finding a good point to use the word.

[Yssen]

If you are looking for some interesting inspiration as far as period swears and what not, dig into some of the writing process notes for the HBO Series Deadwood. While a decision was made not to be 100% accurate with the scripts so that things seemed more familiar, the writers did research a LOT of what people's swears words and curses at the time were and came from. The answers were various Bible and religious references mixed with various historical events based on location. Really very interesting stuff.

 

Andy Wuhl's series "Assume the Position," while done for comedy/entertainment, also has some great tidbits. It includes a whole bit about how the origins of "fuck you" were rooted in the Battle of Agincourt, essentially being diluted shifted from the words "pluck yew." Though this supposedly has more to do with the meaning of the the back handed peace sign in England. Still, the series has a bunch of neat little tidbits like that for the curious.

 

When determining how you want you character to speak, anything really goes. Having your character talk should not be a chore. With that said, it IS fun to spice junk up with the unfamiliar. Personally, I probably use a lot more of the Planescape speech with Yssen than I am willing to admit. Which is a whacky fantasy slang based a bunch of real world stuff, but sounds just super fun when spoken/read. Give one a true sense of "was that even english?!?!?!"

[Aysun]

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

 

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.

[Kage]

Like I said, I prefer to see what is used by the NPCs be used by RPers. They seem to use archaic words AND modern British(loosely)-style stuff.

This fails to answer why a word such as "fuck" is inappropriate. As mentioned before, one reason for its lack of use in a game is highly likely to be the rating of the game. It's already been stated that it's not just a modern word. At some point in time someone's going to get tired of using "pissing" or "swiving" and will want another. We all have our flavor for how we swear even in real life, perhaps they just don't like how pissing or swiving are used. Nor do they want to bugger off.

 

Oh. It's a personal preference. I never said it was inappropriate for use, just that I prefer when people use words that are used by NPCs (I listed some examples) instead. Not like I haven't used 'fuck' in RP before. It's not used by NPCs likely due to game rating, as you said, but they use substitute words and sayings to communicate the same thing, so why not use what they are? Just more immersive imo when people put thought into fitting into the environment we have. Doesn't mean people are wrong not to, or wrong for writing differently, or wrong for not knowing any better.

I'm asking because I want to figure out why people think it doesn't fit, as you said. Why does the word become jarring for some? Why does the word make it stand out instead of it just fitting right in? Why does the word not fit Eorzea's environment?

 

Is it because it's a word we use often now?

 

I see no reason at all for why it shouldn't fit. It is not as if it is a new word. It's not a new phrase.

[Zhavi]

Frankly, it's too much effort to try to figure out appropriate word usage, so I toss words up in a blender and come out with a horrendous mess of insults and gobbledygook that's probably made at least one person wince right out of my rp with them.

 

I write what I feel works for each character's perspective, sometimes using words I use, sometimes using words I look up that probably shouldn't/don't work (scut, churl, rut). The end.