[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

[Avira]

The topic might be sensible to approach. But Let's all remain constructive here! :thumbsup:

 

So to start, everyone have a different view on the matter. As a side statement before digging up. I am not talking about ERP here.

 

My point is that a lot of the language people try to use in the actual IC context seems to be coarse and harsh language. Allow me to use the example of the quicksand here, best place to get walk up or just have the joy of observing on going role play. 

 

So in Quicksand you generally see the story teller type of role player and the amateur veteran type (That's how I call them in my book), and some other type that are minority.

 

So what I did noticed is the words such as " Whore " and " fuck " do come back often. Accented violence from modern language that seems to be more popular.

 

A new word that made it's big popularity is " cunt ".

 

I personally find this kind of use for words in IC context out of their place and kills the fantasy. Modern words got their place in RP but in a game like Final Fantasy? I personally think not. I miss the classic expression like "Blood hell" or "Lap dog". The moderns words seems more appropriate in a sci-fi or modern setting, to my humble opinion. 

 

So tell me what you think about this RPC? Are against it or for it?

Do you have examples that would help the conversation?

 

~Avi

[Oli!]

"Fuck" has been used since at least 1475. Under Etymology, a mention from the year 1310 is also present.

 

I can't find a definitive year for "Whore," but it has been used by Shakespeare, placing it at least between 1590 and 1613, but it is likely much older than that.

 

"Cunt" is older than both, from 1325 (or older; further on down the page, there's a case for it being used in the year 1230).

 

By contrast, "Lap Dog" is in fact younger than all of these (approx. 1640), and is predicted to not have had its current meaning until 1950.

 

"Bloody" as a swear word is also on the younger side, hovering around 1676, and you can't have "Bloody Hell" without it.

 

Words like what people use are what people would have used back then. The problem is that modern literature uses one's suspension of belief to trick us into believing that some words are more period appropriate than others, even though this is not the case in history. If anything is contributing to the idea of people's speech seeming "too modern," it is likely the grammatical structure used, rather than any word in particular.

 

Honestly, if we wanted to go with full-on accuracy anyway, people in Eorzea wouldn't even be speaking English, they'd be speaking whatever common language your Enter key translates into when you press it and your character speaks in the setting. So you can honestly just assume that they're using [contemporary language-appropriate swear word] whenever you type "Fuck" and press enter.

 

Might also want to slap a NSFW tag on this thread.

[ChaosMAJORA]

I understand where you're coming from here.

 

Let me open by saying that, firstly, I agree. I feel like - at least to begin with - people who RP start by using character archetypes, quirks and language that they're most familiar with until they "find their character's voice". I feel that RP should encourage adopting the colloquialisms and nuances of the setting, and it's important that people are led to this in a neutral manner.

 

For example, if someone RPing with me was to use the phrase "Fucking hell", I'd probably - in the same context - use the phrase "By the Hells" myself. I feel like, rather than pointing out OOCly in the same instance that someone is 'wrong' for doing it, it's better to ease them into knowing what 'should be said'.

 

I want to point out that I in NO way mean that people shouldn't be free to RP as they see fit, but I DO think it's worth trying to know a character better. RP, in my opinion, isn't so much about 'inserting self' into a world, but more about creating a life in it, and being them in their setting with their experience!

 

Sorry to blog - the long and short of it is that I agree with you, OP. I think it's worth encouraging others to use expletives that fit the setting, just so it makes the whole RP process work a little more smoothly.

 

Edit: To respond to Oli! right quick: I feel the concern is the use of what we IRL would see as a 'colloquialism' or 'cursory language' being used in a setting that is not our own.

[Oli!]

To respond to Oli! right quick: I feel the concern is the use of what we IRL would see as a 'colloquialism' or 'cursory language' being used in a setting that is not our own.

 

This is something I addressed in my latter paragraphs; if we were to really follow this thought out, people in this setting aren't even speaking our language. The words that we use are not particularly "modern," and as I stated, would have found purchase in the rough real-life historical period of the setting in which we play.

 

What has differed between then and now is sentence structure and (sometimes) meaning. Words, however, are older than we think.

[ChaosMAJORA]

Factually correct, so I won't disagree there.

 

How do I put this...perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as you rightly stated may be the case - so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL? I'm certain I've noted NPCs saying "Bloody Hells", "Bastard" or "Whoreson" - I suppose those wouldn't be too outlandish to hear in RP...

 

Perhaps this is the concern? 

 

(As a side note, I also think that gratuitous cursing is a bit of a grey area: really depends on the character being played/what THEY'D say. Just to clear that up in case I'm misunderstood later!)

[Oli!]

perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as you rightly stated may be the case - so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL?

 

Yes, this is part of the argument. "Cunt" is believed to be obscene at least by Shakespeare's time. "Fuck" has been used sexually since at least 1310. "Whoreson," "Whoremonger," and other such things, are common insults in Shakespeare's plays. "Fuck" has been an adjective / intensifier grammatically since 1528 (and was still used as a descriptor of sorts in the 1310 example). Even the first usage of "I don't give a fuck" is older than the insulting use of "lap dog," surfacing in 1790 and beating it by 160 years.

 

These words, and their "modern" usages, have been around for a while.

[ChaosMAJORA]

perhaps the concern isn't so much whether the words have a place - or even a home in the Ezorean dialect, which as you rightly stated may be the case - so much as whether they'd be used in the same context as we would use them RL?

 

Yes, this is part of the argument. "Cunt" is believed to be obscene at least by Shakespeare's time. "Fuck" has been used sexually since at least 1310. "Whoreson," "Whoremonger," and other such things, are common insults in Shakespeare's plays. "Fuck" has been an adjective / intensifier grammatically since 1528 (and has still been used as a descriptor of sorts in the 1310 example). Even the first usage of "I don't give a fuck" is older than the insulting use of "lap dog," surfacing in 1790 and beating it by almost 200 years.

 

These words, and their "modern" usages, have been around for a while.

 

There's the key then, I acknowledge: the word's modern usage, and whether or not the same usage is relevant in Ezorea.

 

That actually brings me to a bit of a 'middle ground' in this thought track; have we sufficient evidence to suggest - or even confirm - that these colloquialisms/curses have historical grounding in Ezorea's lore? Or are our characters, by words based on our OOC tongue, giving them a place by evolving the dialect in a very real, and fair way?

 

I believe I see what you're getting at: whether or not the word "fuck" has a place in Ezorea may not be the issue, so much as whether or not a word meaning the same, usable in the same setting may be 'the norm' - in which case, we merely use "fuck" as a placeholder for the 'Ezorean' word!

 

I'm sorry to drone on, but this is nothing short of fascinating to discuss - as a Literature graduate.

[Avira]

 

This is something I addressed in my latter paragraphs; if we were to really follow this thought out, people in this setting aren't even speaking our language. The words that we use are not particularly "modern," and as I stated, would have found purchase in the rough real-life historical period of the setting in which we play.

 

What has differed between then and now is sentence structure and (sometimes) meaning. Words, however, are older than we think.

 

It is a valid point. But therefore lies one problem, not only it resembles every day talk, but those words may be use a profanity against terms of service as well. Not me who would report that anyway since I am the first one to be able of talking nasty.

 

However I got a feeling that the choice of words structure lies a bit within the Light versus Heavy role player. Which is why I suit myself as medium level role player. I will do common mistake or status of the light role player. But I believe the language or choice of words that I personally enjoy, or cherish. Would lean to side what the heavier role player with vouch for.

 

Movies are the best example that will reflect such thought. A deep immersion versus a light immersion. At least my knowledge this is one way to represent-ate it. 

 

You have a good knowledge of the history of English language, without any doubt, Oli!.

[Leanne]

This is rather interesting, and a point I actually use ICly with Leanne, not only for cursing, but for other modern words.

 

We must remember, we create words to convey something. A rather infamous example, the word selfie, a rather recent addition to our dictionary, created to convey the meaning: A silly photo of someone making a duck face x3

 

Leanne is traveler, and as such, she hears a ton of different words and slangs being thrown here and there, some she never heard, sometimes adopting them because...hey, it conveys something! Perhaps doing such, others shall also adopt the word. And so others shall adopt from those who adopted from Leanne. And so it goes, and it goes...

[Oli!]

 

 

That actually brings me to a bit of a 'middle ground' in this thought track; have we sufficient evidence to suggest - or even confirm - that these colloquialisms/curses have historical grounding in Ezorea's lore? Or are our characters, by words based on our OOC tongue, giving them a place by evolving the dialect in a very real, and fair way?

 

I believe I see what you're getting at: whether or not the word "fuck" has a place in Ezorea may not be the issue, so much as whether or not a word meaning the same, usable in the same setting may be 'the norm' - in which case, we merely use "fuck" as a placeholder for the 'Ezorean' word!

 

I'm sorry to drone on, but this is nothing short of fascinating to discuss - as a Literature graduate.

 

There's no real way to know whether or not there is a word that represents such things, because we aren't provided with a glossary or complete Eorzean language for people to use. As a result, this isn't really anything that can be argued on any objective grounds. All we have are people's personal flavor preferences; this is why I'm going on a historical basis, because any sort of argument that boils down to "I like these words because they sound better" isn't really going to go anywhere constructive, and will eventually become circular if people are set in their ways.

 

 

 

 

 

It is a valid point. But therefore lies one problem, not only it resembles every day talk, but those words may be use a profanity against terms of service as well. Not me who would report that anyway since I am the first one to be able of talking nasty.

 

However I got a feeling that the choice of words structure lies a bit within the Light versus Heavy role player. Which is why I suit myself as medium level role player. I will do common mistake or status of the light role player. But I believe the language or choice of words that I personally enjoy, or cherish. Would lean to side what the heavier role player with vouch for.

 

Movies are the best example that will reflect such thought. A deep immersion versus a light immersion. At least my knowledge this is one way to represent-ate it. 

 

You have a good knowledge of the history of English language, without any doubt, Oli!.

 

I can't argue against the Terms of Service. It's generally accepted in most RP communities that if you're going to curse like a sailor, you take your mutes / bans like a champ and move on.

 

Light versus Heavy is also a subjective viewpoint; some people view Light v. Heavy as a measure of how much time one spends roleplaying. Others view it by how developed one's character is. Others view it as how much they stick to the lore, how many things their characters have done, how many events they've been to, how many characters they have or roleplay, and many, many other things. Some people might even use Light v. Heavy to determine the type or quality of the language that they or others use.

 

So even then, we can't use that as a measure for what words seem more appropriate than others. As someone who (I guess?) considers themselves a "Heavy" roleplayer, even though I don't use these words myself (mainly because my characters don't curse), I won't really care if someone else does.

[Virella]

If you cannot stand curse words for one reason or the other? I'd suggest simply flicking on the profanity filter again. Surely it will not block all, and eh, even the NPCs can be pretty lewd if not cursing like sailors, but it may stop some of if it if you don't wish to see it.

 

Honestly, as long it fits the character, setting, and it ain't done to just sound edgy ooc? Go for it!

[Kage]

CS--izSnbNk

 

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

 

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

[ChaosMAJORA]

By the look of things, I suppose this really does boil down to "RP as you feel you should, and be mindful of others where appropriate" - like most things concerning RP! I can agree on that much, anyway.

 

I second many here regarding use of profanities simply because 'my guy doesn't', and whereas I can see how abundant use might kind of 'remove from the experience' of some, I can see how it might also add to the experience of others.

 

Can I just say thanks for this really insightful thread? It's given me plenty to think about, and has been really intriguing to discuss! :lol:

[-no longer matters-]

I play a character that can be pretty lewd in terms of Spech as Oli has already pointed out those words are much older than people think, and have had a lot of the same context for a very very long time as well.

 

If for some reason you don't want to RP with me because, my character is a street urchin and speaks much like someone who lived a hard life on the streets (Crass language, lacking the best manners, etc.) then it may be best to avoid me and others that have similar characters all together.

 

Also the language I use does not place me from light to heavy roleplayer, nor does typos The time you spend IC is what places you from Light to Heavy.

 

As Virella pointed out you also have the option to turn your profanity filter back on.

 

That said there's so many varying speech patterns in this game and terms that don't match the settings "Time Table" if you were to try to compare it to our own. So being prudent about speach patterns as long as someone isn't talking like a Ninja Turtle is a bit finicky.

[Aaron]

I use real curse words in game . Haven't got a complaint and i've done it for months .

 

Then again think about it, how would -you- look like telling a random a curse words not lore accurate ?

 

Exactly , you're better of just rolling with the thunder imo.

[ChaosMAJORA]

CS--izSnbNk

 

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

 

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

 

Having seen the phrase - and derivations of the phrase - used by NPCs in-game, I'd wholeheartedly agree with its use IC.

 

That said, as stated above, I acknowledge that language IC evolving in a real-time way is something that I believe is natural progression in any constructed reality. Ergo: I agree with you on two counts - why wouldn't it have come into use? You can surely explain it away ICly, after all.

[Kage]

CS--izSnbNk

 

"Thal's Bloody Balls"

 

Would you agree that for some people 'bloody' would have been seen as something that is a colloquial term (RL inserted into Eorzea) and probably would have continued to see it as that way until it was seen by a player in-game or at FanFest?

 

Having seen the phrase - and derivations of the phrase - used by NPCs in-game, I'd wholeheartedly agree with its use IC.

 

That said, as stated above, I acknowledge that language IC evolving in a real-time way is something that I believe is natural progression in any constructed reality. Ergo: I agree with you on two counts - why wouldn't it have come into use? You can surely explain it away ICly, after all.

As I said, and from what I am assuming from my understanding of your statement, you would have continued to see it as "out of place" if it was not for the presence of it in-game. Yes? I am sure many others would say the same thing.

 

So then my question is, what is actually considered to be "real world" slurs that break immersion? Is it retard?

 

Is fuck actually one or is it just in our minds? There are ones like "oh shite" or "bugger off!" that can take its place but could the absence of fuck be explained by the TEEN RATING? If ESRB rating is anything similar to the ratings of movies, you can only keep the PG-13 rating with only a certain number of usages of the word and especially as long as they are not 'sexual' in nature...

 

This thread is not the only time we've talked about it. Either common uses or which ones people use. Some people do say it breaks immersion but then, again, my question is exactly what words are breaking your immersion and why? Is it because we use them often -now-?

 

And at what 'point' will certain slurs be deemed acceptable to not break immersion. Are we only restricted to the ones in game?

[111]

 

If ESRB rating is anything similar to the ratings of movies, you can only keep the PG-13 rating with only a certain number of usages of the word and especially as long as they are not 'sexual' in nature...

 

Interestingly enough FFXIV has the 'Sexual themes' tagged onto the Teen rating, which is rather rare. 

 

Even TERA, a game with people fighting monsters in fetish pornography outfits only has 'Suggestive themes'.

 

There is a reason FFXIV can have whores explicitly in the game, or have a leve reference making rings for erotic body piercings.

[111]

Huh I'm looking at the ESRB and I can't find another major MMO that has 'Sexual Themes'. 

 

So next time you complain about people being naughty in the quicksand, remember, people bought a box that said 'Sexual Themes'.

 

Might as well give people what they paid for

 

Edit: The Elder Scrolls Online has it.

[Aysun]

Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

 

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

 

 

swive

swīv/

verbarchaichumorous

 

1. have sexual intercourse with.
   

[Avira]

There really was no complaining. I am not sure why some would believe this now. It is nothing but a small debate and I desire to see other's opinion about it. So I truly fail to understand why some posters speak of complaining.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

 

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

 

 

swive

swīv/

verbarchaichumorous

 

1. have sexual intercourse with.
   

 

They also use "rut" and "bugger", depending on context. "Rut" is used for sex. "Bugger" is profanity.

 

Swiv.....I've only seen the Limsan NPCs use though. Context could make it weird if two fancy Ishgardian men are in an argument and one of them outs "piratespeak".

[Aysun]

Used to bother me to see the f-bomb IC. I preferred people who tried to be creative and come up with swears similar to those the NPCs used (whoresons, Thal's balls, Matron's teat [tit? can't remember], Seven Hells! etc). I still prefer when people use shite or bloody over the more real-world swears, but it doesn't bother me anymore to see the latter used.

 

For the record, the NPCs have given us a word to use instead of fuck.

 

 

swive

swīv/

verbarchaichumorous

 

1. have sexual intercourse with.
   

 

They also use "rut" and "bugger", depending on context. "Rut" is used for sex. "Bugger" is profanity.

 

Swiv.....I've only seen the Limsan NPCs use though. Context could make it weird if two fancy Ishgardian men are in an argument and one of them outs "piratespeak".

 

Weeeell considering Estinien was the one who said it there, we could think of it more as just an extremely foul thing to say (as 'fuck' is) that any Eorzean would use, not just pirates. Pirates of course, speak dirtier than most, and would of course use it more frequently!

[Paradox]

Oli's grasp of languages surpasses mine, both due to his study on it most likely (My study of languages is only cursory at best, I'm more of a prehistoric history and mythology guy), and because my failing memory has let a lot of details slip through my fingers. So my hat's off to him in that regard. But there's something here that has a greater point in it all. A lot of us aren't language majors, or history majors. We don't know a lot of the Olde English terms or words, and the game itself leans towards a lot of that. Sure, we could do the research and try our best to adapt it. And for those of us used to writing in more modern terms, having to remember to write in terms or words specific to a setting can often be difficult on a 24/7 basis. I don't write characters with accents much because having to forget my g or h on something like 'hanging' to write it 'hangin' or 'angin'  is hard because..well. I'm a spelling whore, and I spell without thinking, using the proper spelling of the word, and often slip up on accented speech because of it. The same can be said of words from the setting. Sometimes we just forget to use them because they don't come immediately to mind, and only a few in the community use them. Hell, I still have problems substituting 'anyroad' for 'anyway' or 'anywho' because only a smattering of people do it that I've observed.

 

 

On the greater topic, to me, the usage of words like 'Fuck' isn't immersion-breaking because it's a word that I, in my modern language immersion, can recognize and adapt to immediately, making a response easier to formulate. Is it out of place in Eorzea? We don't know. As it was said, we haven't a comprehensive Eorzean dictionary or thesaurus in either common terms or slang. Hell, we have a dragon dictionary more comprehensive than an Eorzean one. We have 'shite', which is exactly what it says on the tin. That one's not hard to figure out, and easier to deal with. Just add an 'e'. Honestly the way I see it, just use what you're comfortable with in your own language but keep context in mind. I'd say not to avoid curses as they're known in modern sense, but their usage in context. We naturally don't have phrases in Eorzea like 'get your shit together', as to my knowledge that's way more modern and would make a lot less sense in context. But calling someone a shit-head or a shite-head is just peachy the way I see it.

 

Usage and structure is really more important than what words you use (well, in my view anyway), at least until we get a proper Eorzean language primer. But that's just how I feel. I don't nitpick about people's language usage, even if it seems a little too modern. I'm more interested in fun RP, and nitpicking over a few words kind of interrupts my immersion way more than words themselves would. But to each their own~. As far as the word cunt goes, it is exceptionally old, and I think it has its merit as a descriptive, more lewd 'sailor swearin' term for lady-bits in the RP sense rather than the insult it's used as today. Again, context. Since Eorzea as we see it is more Olde English, go with that and see what you can find. And hey, there are a LOT of descriptors not only for both sets of genitalia used throughout history, but other things as well. Terms and slang were a lot different back then. So if you think something sounds more Eorzean, do the research, find some terms, and then have a party.

 

Sidenote: Still waiting to see someone reach into the Dragon Age box and utter 'Menphina's Knickerweasels!'. Just sayin.

 

Edit: People posted before I was finished aaaah. D: So reply pre-dates the whole 'swiv' thing. Reminds me so much of swimming.

[Kage]

From what I can tell (in a very very cursory glance), 'shite' is actually a modern maybe early modern English variant for 'shit' in British English or Irish English.

 

Take Wikipedia with a grain of salt if you're so inclined.

 

Old English: scite (dung) and scitte (diarrhoea), and the verb scītan (to defecate, attested only in bescītan, to cover with excrement)

 

Middle English: schītte (excrement), schyt (diarrhoea) and shiten (to defecate)

 

So what is it that we consider "modern or real world"? What separates that from those that are considered Eorzean appropriate? Why is 'shite' or 'bloody' lesser real world? As far as I know, they're used in modern speech quite often. We see it in game. That's why we accept it. But I already posed why fuck wouldn't be used quite often in the game.

 

Would you consider "Uh... I think I'll pass..." out of place?