3.2 Story and Discovery Thread: HERE BE [SPOILERS]

[Mavis]

 

I believe it's been considered raided by one group of adventurers (though that information may or may not be widely known).  It's also currently crawling with Padjal, Elementals, and Wailers, per the end of the dungeon quest.  So that may also provide you with some issues, as I can assure you that if you're corrupting White Magic, all three are going to be extremely unhappy with you and will give you A Very Bad Time.

 

In all honesty, I have yet to understand people who want to align White Magic with evil when it's so clearly not designed to do anything more than heal.  Even weaponizing it appears to be extremely harmful in retrospect, and may very well be what accelerated the War of the Magi's damage of the earth itself.  There's plenty of other magical schools that are either on the edge of evil, or just outright evil.  I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

Ones bad time can be anothers good time. Alright I will stop. 

 

And I atleast am someone who doesn't like the entire "why use x when you can use y". It takes a character with questionable morals to use magic that is considered "evil", and someone either dilusional or twisted to use something outright evil. But twisting the essence of what can be seen by nearly all as good? That takes a very special kind of dedication. The hardships in acchieving that endgoal are much higher than with anything else yes, and it is much less sensible for a reasonable person. However who is to say that the character in question is reasonable. 

And if everyone simply goes with the easy solution then things grow a lot less overall engaging if all that was played out was the safe and easy way, wouldn't you agree?

[LiadansWhisper]

And if everyone simply goes with the easy solution then things grow a lot less overall engaging if all that was played out was the safe and easy way, wouldn't you agree?

 

No, not really. Especially given that just gaining access to Succor itself is already extremely difficult to justify in character. There are already plenty of hurdles to clear, and I wouldn't call Black Magic or Void Magic the "safe and easy way," either. I feel like anyone believing they are doesn't really understand what they entail.

 

Just my $0.02. And that's all I'll say on the matter.

[Mavis]

 

No, not really.  Especially given that just gaining access to Succor itself is already extremely difficult to justify in character.  There are already plenty of hurdles to clear, and I wouldn't call Black Magic or Void Magic the "safe and easy way," either.  I feel like anyone believing they are doesn't really understand what they entail.

 

Just my $0.02.  And that's all I'll say on the matter.

I was more going on a little rant on the argument in general, both of the two mentioned are quite large beasts to tackle in their own regard. I just personally would classify weaponized succor as one level more abhorrent than the ones mentioned. 

But well. I guess we just disagree, so I got nothing else to say on the matter, hope you have a good day.

[Nero]

 

Just bear in mind that the abilities you see in Lost City HM are lost.  So to utilize them, you'd probably have to re-discover them. The most likely way to do that would be for your character to survive Lost City...which is a pretty tall order.

Well of course! That is part of the fun. Then again, would it not be considered atleast somewhat raided, for the lack of a better term, by a few hordes of adventurers? Considering that it has been accessible now and all of that. I could imagine that getting in and out would be harder.

 

In all honesty, I have yet to understand people who want to align White Magic with evil when it's so clearly not designed to do anything more than heal. Even weaponizing it appears to be extremely harmful in retrospect, and may very well be what accelerated the War of the Magi's damage of the earth itself. There's plenty of other magical schools that are either on the edge of evil, or just outright evil. I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

 

On a purely narrative level, I'm sure there's something appealing in exploring the theme of "Light Is Not Good", and that tools are no more good or evil than their wielders. I'm not sure the healing capabilities of white magic would be appreciated as "good" if it was used to, say, keep a torture victim alive during interrogation in order to break them, or if a bad guy's conjurer croney managed to keep an explicitly evil boss alive and protected so that said explicitly evil boss can go set orphanages on fire.

 

Is white magic beneficial? Absolutely. But to whom it is beneficial can change the morality behind its usage radically.

 

Of course, ignoring all the lore stuff. I'm just talking about narrative context, here.

[Kellach Woods]

Just bear in mind that the abilities you see in Lost City HM are lost.  So to utilize them, you'd probably have to re-discover them. The most likely way to do that would be for your character to survive Lost City...which is a pretty tall order.

 

Actually, Lost City HM - Lost City regular wouldn't yield any knowledge since the closest thing you'll find is Diabolos.

 

And he's not gonna be happy.

 

As far as "character surviving IC run of dungeon", we have at least a couple, including this guy *points to avatar* who have expeditions in dungeons and not just the tiny ones - I can understand just saying you did it but doing it with a group also helps on the planning front.

[LiadansWhisper]

On a purely narrative level, I'm sure there's something appealing in exploring the theme of "Light Is Not Good", and that tools are no more good or evil than their wielders. I'm not sure the healing capabilities of white magic would be appreciated as "good" if it was used to, say, keep a torture victim alive during interrogation in order to break them, or if a bad guy's conjurer croney managed to keep an explicitly evil boss alive and protected so that said explicitly evil boss can go set orphanages on fire.

 

Is white magic beneficial? Absolutely. But to whom it is beneficial can change the morality behind its usage radically.

 

Of course, ignoring all the lore stuff. I'm just talking about narrative context, here.

 

There are other ways to address this, however, without everyone wanting to weaponize the one beneficial magic in the game when it's been driven home over and over again that this is a really terrible idea and almost destroyed the world once before.

 

Every heard of the "Tyranny of Good Intentions?" Now there's a narrative avenue no one ever wants to explore.

 

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

 

C.S. Lewis was a wise man.

 

Actually, Lost City HM - Lost City regular wouldn't yield any knowledge since the closest thing you'll find is Diabolos.

 

And he's not gonna be happy.

 

As far as "character surviving IC run of dungeon", we have at least a couple, including this guy *points to avatar* who have expeditions in dungeons and not just the tiny ones - I can understand just saying you did it but doing it with a group also helps on the planning front.

 

I was under the impression that the two were connected, and you had to deal with one to reach the other. That's why I phrased it the way I did.

[Dat Oni]

 

Just bear in mind that the abilities you see in Lost City HM are lost.  So to utilize them, you'd probably have to re-discover them. The most likely way to do that would be for your character to survive Lost City...which is a pretty tall order.

Well of course! That is part of the fun. Then again, would it not be considered atleast somewhat raided, for the lack of a better term, by a few hordes of adventurers? Considering that it has been accessible now and all of that. I could imagine that getting in and out would be harder.

 

In all honesty, I have yet to understand people who want to align White Magic with evil when it's so clearly not designed to do anything more than heal.  Even weaponizing it appears to be extremely harmful in retrospect, and may very well be what accelerated the War of the Magi's damage of the earth itself.  There's plenty of other magical schools that are either on the edge of evil, or just outright evil.  I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

 

On a purely narrative level, I'm sure there's something appealing in exploring the theme of "Light Is Not Good", and that tools are no more good or evil than their wielders. I'm not sure the healing capabilities of white magic would be appreciated as "good" if it was used to, say, keep a torture victim alive during interrogation in order to break them, or if a bad guy's conjurer croney managed to keep an explicitly evil boss alive and protected so that said explicitly evil boss can go set orphanages on fire.

 

Is white magic beneficial? Absolutely. But to whom it is beneficial can change the morality behind its usage radically.

 

Of course, ignoring all the lore stuff. I'm just talking about narrative context, here.

 

I love exploring morality. Narratives that question the natures of good and evil, whether man is inherently responsible for its actions or if the concept they created are, or, my personal favorite: Man is wrong and continues to understand nothing because we cannot comprehend the horrible truth.

 

"Black and white? Good and evil? Pfft. Such are the names mankind uses to contextualize the creeping madness around it. To lend sense to nonsense. To justify the unjustifiable. To bring order to chaos. The world is a massive contorting canvas slathered in shades of grey. There are no extremes. Right and wrong are pliable; defined in the moment, ever-changing. Nothing is consistent. Nothing is absolute.

 

There is no black, there is no white.

 

There is only grey."

[Nero]

I am now completely confused, so correct me at any point if I'm misinterpreting anything you are saying.

 

There are two points you are arguing:

 

...I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

 

One: white magic is used for healing and incapable of or ineffective in causing direct harm (or perhaps any harm at all), therefore white magic is inherently good and beneficial. Because white magic is inherently good and beneficial, it cannot (or should not) be used as the "evil power" in a story. Because white magic cannot cause any harm, then narratively-speaking, evil should not use white magic. White magic being used for evil purposes doesn't make sense in a story, and a "good vs. evil" plotline makes more sense with, say, a black mage villain than a white mage villain, because there are other powers (i.e arcanima, thaumaturgy) that are capable of causing direct harm and thus should be used instead.

 

Counterargument: white magic, while incapable of causing direct harm, is still capable of causing indirect harm. And because it is capable of causing indirect harm, white magic is therefore not inherently good and beneficial (BUT nor is it inherently bad and harmful). And because white magic is not inherently good, then it can be used for evil purposes and still make sense within a storyline. It may not be as directly evil as blowing up hospitals with thaumaturgy, but it is still capable of performing evil acts. See: keeping an unambiguously evil person alive, keeping an innocent person alive to torment them, draining all of the aether in a localized environment (and by extension threatening the indiscriminate wrath of the Elementals).

 

Also, contradiction with the below point: how can a power that is inherently "good and beneficial" also be capable of destroying the world?

 

There are other ways to address this, however, without everyone wanting to weaponize the one beneficial magic in the game when it's been driven home over and over again that this is a really terrible idea and almost destroyed the world once before.

 

Two: using white magic is extremely dangerous as its abuse nearly destroyed the world. Therefore it makes no sense for a villain to use it for evil purposes or attempt to inflict direct harm with it because they risk destroying everything in the process. In addition, if a villain wishes to destroy the world, there are easier methods of doing so involving (insert: Allagans, primals, a particularly stinky cheese, etc.)

 

Counter: "Evil" is not limited to wanting to inflict direct harm or destroy the world. Inflicting indirect harm, or inflicting any harm in general, can be extrapolated as an evil intention. Therefore, on a purely individual basis, a good person who becomes a white mage and then turns evil for whatever reason is still capable of using their powers with evil intentions. Whether or not they would is irrelevant, what matters is that they are capable of doing so if their inclination exists.

 

Every heard of the "Tyranny of Good Intentions?" Now there's a narrative avenue no one ever wants to explore.

 

Pretty much unrelated to my above points, but isn't this exactly the kind of thing we're talking about?

 

Is that not exactly what happened at the end of the Fifth Astral Era? White magic, an "inherently good and beneficial" magic, was used extensively for the sake of man's own gain. This own gain became greed and avarice. Then the Elementals retaliated by flooding the world.

 

Imagine if you're a white mage in the Fifth Astral Era, and you know your magic drains environmental aether, but you want to cure all of the world's diseases and ailments and rescue all the sick children with your power because you're a good person and that's a good intention. So you use your power. A lot. Unaware (or perhaps fully aware) of the harm it causes to the environment. Then the elementals flood the world and kill you and all of the innocents you were trying to preserve with your good intentions.

 

ANYWAY this is getting way off topic so I'll stop here, I just want to be sure we understand each other's points.

[Kellach Woods]

Though off topic, keep in mind we know very very little of Gridania since barely anything of relevance happens there, and that goes double for the Elementals.

[Warren Castille]

"Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

 

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

[LiadansWhisper]

Gonna stick all this behind a spoiler tag, as I'm sure half the people here don't want to read it.

 

 

I am now completely confused, so correct me at any point if I'm misinterpreting anything you are saying.

 

There are two points you are arguing:

 

...I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

 

One: white magic is used for healing and incapable of or ineffective in causing direct harm (or perhaps any harm at all), therefore white magic is inherently good and beneficial. Because white magic is inherently good and beneficial, it cannot (or should not) be used as the "evil power" in a story. Because white magic cannot cause any harm, then narratively-speaking, evil should not use white magic. White magic being used for evil purposes doesn't make sense in a story, and a "good vs. evil" plotline makes more sense with, say, a black mage villain than a white mage villain, because there are other powers (i.e arcanima, thaumaturgy) that are capable of causing direct harm and thus should be used instead.

 

Counterargument: white magic, while incapable of causing direct harm, is still capable of causing indirect harm. And because it is capable of causing indirect harm, white magic is therefore not inherently good and beneficial (BUT nor is it inherently bad and harmful). And because white magic is not inherently good, then it can be used for evil purposes and still make sense within a storyline. It may not be as directly evil as blowing up hospitals with thaumaturgy, but it is still capable of performing evil acts. See: keeping an unambiguously evil person alive, keeping an innocent person alive to torment them, draining all of the aether in a localized environment (and by extension threatening the indiscriminate wrath of the Elementals).

 

Both of these are incorrect, though, in my opinion. White Magic is intended to be beneficial. Left to its intended use (i.e. the natural way the magic functions), it cannot directly harm anyone, and the only "harm" it can truly inflict is if care is not taken for the ambient aether in a given place (the implication is that you could probably drain a location of aether if you were making too much/too powerful use of White Magic on a regular basis). Which leads into:

 

Also, contradiction with the below point: how can a power that is inherently "good and beneficial" also be capable of destroying the world?

 

Initially, we are simply told that White Mages drew too strongly on the ambient aether in their attempt to defend against the Black Mages of Mhachi. And it's entirely possible that the huge draws of aether by the Amdapori and Mhachi magi to fuel their protective/destructive spells are the entire reason for the end of the Fifth Astral Era. But thanks to Lost City HM, it's kinda strongly implied that it might not have just been that. That it may also have been due to the Amdapori directly corrupting and perverting White Magic into a tool of war (as well as, of course, the Mhachi using ever more powerful voidsent to power their larger spells). In perverting what naturally works as a beneficial, healing magic into a tool of war, the Amdapori may have ended up with abilities that caused far more damage to the earth itself than the wielders intended to happen.

 

Two: using white magic is extremely dangerous as its abuse nearly destroyed the world. Therefore it makes no sense for a villain to use it for evil purposes or attempt to inflict direct harm with it because they risk destroying everything in the process. In addition, if a villain wishes to destroy the world, there are easier methods of doing so involving (insert: Allagans, primals, a particularly stinky cheese, etc.)

 

Counter: "Evil" is not limited to wanting to inflict direct harm or destroy the world. Inflicting indirect harm, or inflicting any harm in general, can be extrapolated as an evil intention. Therefore, on a purely individual basis, a good person who becomes a white mage and then turns evil for whatever reason is still capable of using their powers with evil intentions. Whether or not they would is irrelevant, what matters is that they are capable of doing so if their inclination exists.

 

Using a beneficial power with evil intentions in the manner in which the beneficial power is intended to be used (i.e. following the natural and innate way White Magic works, as opposed to the unnatural and perverted way that the Amdapori twisted it into) would still not result in using the power to directly harm another person. You would have to actively pervert the power into a weapon, which isn't easy. What's more, 9 times out of 10, the "evil" guy usually thinks that he's either a) justified in what he's doing or b) isn't doing anything wrong at all. "Evil" people rarely see themselves as truly evil. They're doing it for their country, they're doing it for their people, they're doing it to save everyone else, they're doing it to save the planet, whatever. It's just, they think the ends justify the means.

 

But, I mean, this is really secondary to what I was saying in the first place.

 

If you want to be "evil" and do "evil bad things," there are several forbidden schools of magic to choose from that are both easier to use to that end and more fitting thematically. As Warren said, it just doesn't make any sense to me that you'd automatically pick the one school of magic that is both blatantly good and the hardest to actually come by and go through the trouble of twisting it into a weapon that destroys the earth around you, but hey maybe it'll actually help you do super evil bad things that you could do with, say, Void Magic - which is both easier to come by, lorewise, and already set up to bring about despair and pain.

 

Pretty much unrelated to my above points, but isn't this exactly the kind of thing we're talking about?

 

Is that not exactly what happened at the end of the Fifth Astral Era? White magic, an "inherently good and beneficial" magic, was used extensively for the sake of man's own gain. This own gain became greed and avarice. Then the Elementals retaliated by flooding the world.

 

Imagine if you're a white mage in the Fifth Astral Era, and you know your magic drains environmental aether, but you want to cure all of the world's diseases and ailments and rescue all the sick children with your power because you're a good person and that's a good intention. So you use your power. A lot. Unaware (or perhaps fully aware) of the harm it causes to the environment. Then the elementals flood the world and kill you and all of the innocents you were trying to preserve with your good intentions.

 

No. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

I'm talking about the fact that the Amdapori apparently hunted down any child born with a smidgen of Arcane ability and killed them. I'm talking about the fact that the Amdapori apparently tore people's souls out of their bodies and locked them into inanimate objects (though whether these were willing or unwilling sacrifices is entirely unclear). They didn't apparently allow dissent of any kind, even if that "dissent" was simply a child born with what amounts to a genetic quirk that made them predisposed to a magic Amdapor didn't like. They knew best. That is the Tyranny of Good Intentions. The idea that somehow you know better than those around you. That what you want is what people really need. That it's for their own good.

 

That is the true horror of White Magic when the people who wield it lose their humility and begin to believe that they really are better and thus know what's best for everyone around them. If Mhachi was a Tyranny of Evil Intentions, then Amdapor apparently became the opposite - a Tyranny of Good Intentions, where you had no choice because you just didn't understand. It isn't perverted magic used as a weapon. It's when perfectly good magic, clean magic, beneficial magic is used on someone against their consent. It's when the wielder stops seeing those around him or her as sentient beings with a right to their own beliefs, their own choices, etc , and imposes his or her will upon them. It's when you sanction killing people for being born with a knack for a type of magic that is not, in and of itself, necessarily harmful (remember, Thaumaturgy came about when people needed things like fires to ward off the cold and not get frostbite). It starts small, but can become a truly hideous thing. That's what I was talking about.

 

ANYWAY this is getting way off topic so I'll stop here, I just want to be sure we understand each other's points.

 

I get what you're saying, I just don't think you really understand where I'm coming from. Which is cool. "Good Intentions" is probably my favorite aspect of White Magic. Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[Kellach Woods]

"Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

 

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

 

To be fair, the first hint they gave us as to how PCs could access White Magic was straight up "nefarious means".

[LiadansWhisper]

"Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

 

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

 

To be fair, the first hint they gave us as to how PCs could access White Magic was straight up "nefarious means".

 

Which could be as simple as, "Defying the Elementals " Which would be nefarious without actually being evil in mature. Fact is, we don't actually know what they meant by the statement and likely won't unless/until they actually explain what they meant (hopefully with lore details).

[Zelmanov]

excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

[LiadansWhisper]

excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

 

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal? (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

 

The only time we see Holy used in-game, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong here!), by a "White Mage" is in Lost City of Amdapor HM. And even then, it's "Ancient Holy." We never see the Padjal - who are the only active White Mages beyond the Warrior of Light - even reference Holy. So, to me, that says it's probably a game mechanics thing that we even have the spell on our bars.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

 

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal?  (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

 

The only time we see Holy used in-game, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong here!), by a "White Mage" is in Lost City of Amdapor HM.  And even then, it's "Ancient Holy."  We never see the Padjal - who are the only active White Mages beyond the Warrior of Light - even reference Holy.  So, to me, that says it's probably a game mechanics thing that we even have the spell on our bars.

 

Holy is taught to the player character by Ray-O Senna.

 

Raya-O-Senna expresses her profound gratitude for your assistance in the ritual. In recognition of your accomplishments as a white mage' date=' she bestows upon you the last piece of your garb-- now imbued with the power of the departed A-Towa-Cant-- and imparts unto you the most powerful incantation she knows. Expressing her confidence that you will bring succor to the realm and do her people proud, she wishes you well in your journeys.[/quote']

 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Forest

[LiadansWhisper]

Holy is taught to the player character by Ray-O Senna.

 

Raya-O-Senna expresses her profound gratitude for your assistance in the ritual. In recognition of your accomplishments as a white mage' date=' she bestows upon you the last piece of your garb-- now imbued with the power of the departed A-Towa-Cant-- and imparts unto you the most powerful incantation she knows. Expressing her confidence that you will bring succor to the realm and do her people proud, she wishes you well in your journeys.[/quote']

 

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Forest

 

That's Benediction. You get the chest and Benediction at 50. Holy is learned at 45 (which always struck me as really weird) from http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Yearn_for_the_Urn . I need to go back and watch the cutscene, but I thought that you auto got the spell from the soulstone and not Raya.

[Kellach Woods]

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal?  (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

It's actually the equivalent of Flare (or NUKE if you prefer the FF1 version).

 

I can't recall a game where Holy was a big deal.

[LiadansWhisper]

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal?  (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

It's actually the equivalent of Flare (or NUKE if you prefer the FF1 version).

 

I can't recall a game where Holy was a big deal.

 

7 is the one that comes to mind, and I think 9, too, but I haven't played either in yearrrrs. In 7 it was literally a shield. It was the ultimate spell Yuna learns in 10.

[Kellach Woods]

Funnily enough, the first named White Mage in the series never learns it because Holy didn't exist back then, and sacrifices his life to grant your party Ultima.

[LiadansWhisper]

Funnily enough, the first named White Mage in the series never learns it because Holy didn't exist back then, and sacrifices his life to grant your party Ultima.

 

Which I think is analogous to Holy in the later games?

 

I know in some games it was intended for use against undead (it "cleansed" the shit out of them, which destroyed them, kinda like how healing spells destroy undead in D&D).

[111]

I always thought succor was basically the same as black magic. They both pull aether from the land to do stuff, one just has better marketing.

 

A holy can kill you the same as a flare.

[LiadansWhisper]

I always thought succor was basically the same as black magic. They both pull aether from the land to do stuff, one just has better marketing.

 

A holy can kill you the same as a flare.

 

Both would be fairly equally damaging (to the land, since I believe it's still less damaging to actual people than Flare is, iirc - but I think I mentioned to you a while back that Holy being a level 45 spell is just kinda weird given the way it's treated in other games). It just contradicts in-game lore that Succor isn't supposed to be used as a weapon at all.

[111]

I always thought succor was basically the same as black magic. They both pull aether from the land to do stuff, one just has better marketing.

 

A holy can kill you the same as a flare.

 

Both would be fairly equally damaging (to the land, since I believe it's still less damaging to actual people than Flare is, iirc - but I think I mentioned to you a while back that Holy being a level 45 spell is just kinda weird given the way it's treated in other games).  It just contradicts in-game lore that Succor isn't supposed to be used as a weapon at all.

Like I said, white magic has a better marketing department.

 

I mean come on, who expects the name 'Black Magic' to make people comfortable.

[LiadansWhisper]

Like I said, white magic has a better marketing department.

 

I mean come on, who expects the name 'Black Magic' to make people comfortable.

 

One exists because someone, somewhere was hurting really badly and someone else wanted to make them feel better.

 

The other one exists because someone, somewhere saw some other guy and thought, "I want to set him on fire."