discussion From the Source to the First (SPOILERS FOR SHB)

[Tregarde]

I wouldn't call the point "moot" either, but I'm not going to step on anyone else's RP. We're here to have fun, if something bothers me THAT much I can just walk away.

 

At this time the lore has only given of a couple, very limited, ways to go between worlds - but that doesn't mean there aren't others. If something stays within the spirit of the game I'll roll with it.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Tregarde

[Kuzhuk]

I can talk until I'm blue in the face about my criteria of what I will and won't accept, but at the end of the day it ultimately comes down to how things feel to me. I'm seeking to preserve consistency and believability within the scope of the game ultimately and that's a feel thing, not a fact thing. I know that isn't the best way to do things from a social point of view. It's intensely personal... But roleplaying IS intensely personal. Trying to come up with a communicable, universal set of standards is probably always going to fail because people value different things and are going for different tones.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Kuzhuk

[Leezil]

Just to be clear, my own ideas aren't restrictions on how anyone else should play, I just hope it's helpful! Really interesting discussion going on here.

[Lucius Ignatius]

32 minutes ago, Leezil said:

Just to be clear, my own ideas aren't restrictions on how anyone else should play, I just hope it's helpful! Really interesting discussion going on here.

I think putting forth any ideas, no matter how strange are very useful to this discussion. I think for people in the first two camps I mentioned, as long as it makes sense for lore/creative enough, it can be done. I think the thread is made to just try finding a solution(s) or suggestions that satisfies people who want to RP that way. :3

 

Ill be honest, I think your option might be the closest we've gotten so far. Probably not something I intend to do, but I think its creative!

Edited July 14, 2019 by Lucius Volturcius

[Andromeda]

There are a couple points I want to make as we seem to be drifting to a "this is wrong/bad/don't do this" stance on allowing Travel.

 

First, the RP community ignores lore all the damn time. From the murky nature of Hingan/Doman being district languages from Hyuran which we as a community have said is unequivocally true to the inconsistent progression of time which we tend to totally ignore, we have dismissed complications in the past in favor of what is more beneficial to RP. Even in small ways like ignoring the in-universe calendar with it's eight-day weeks and 32-day months and it's odd day names. Lore purism is a relative notion and ultimately not always the most beneficial position to RP from. I can say Lightningsday all I want, but if you don't know that's Friday me saying Lightningsday is hurting RP by being inflexible in lore.

 

Second is that lore in this setting is itself remarkably flexible. The lorebooks themselves aren't even perfectly reliable, going so far as to disagree with themselves in text on certain points. There's very, very little in the way of lore not filtered through unreliable narrators. This seems to me to encourage an attitude of "lore plausable" in place of "strictly lore adherent" as what you strictly adhere to is usually a perception of the reality of the story and not an objective reality. The game itself, the strictest adherence possible to lore, is presenting a subjective reality, not an objective one. This is hammered heavily on quite a few different fronts but clearest on the subjective classification of beastmen which are not objectively district from Spoken.

 

And what we're told is true is weird. From Palemoon Parazuzu and werewolves to the fact that all the crossover events have been canon to dragons being aliens, this is a genuinely weird setting. That's glorious, that allows for a lot of player freedom. 

 

This is all a very long way of saying that denying the validity of people traveling to and from the First does not make a person better, nor is someone embracing that potential wrong. Purity of lore adherence is not necessarily better for RP nor is it necessarily that much more accurate given how wholly unreliable the setting we have is. I don't think I know a single person who has never bent lore and I'd be nearly as confident saying almost everyone has ignored something for the conveniences of RP.

 

You don't have to engage with anything, but be very wary of thinking that the ways others enjoy this setting are bad. We are firmly in "judge not lest ye be judged" territory here.

Edited July 14, 2019 by Andromeda

[Leezil]

1 hour ago, Andromeda said:

There are a couple points I want to make as we seem to be drifting to a "this is wrong/bad/don't do this" stance on allowing Travel.

 

First, the RP community ignores lore all the damn time. From the murky nature of Hingan/Doman being district languages from Hyuran which we as a community have said is unequivocally true to the inconsistent progression of time which we tend to totally ignore, we have dismissed complications in the past in favor of what is more beneficial to RP. Even in small ways like ignoring the in-universe calendar with it's eight-day weeks and 32-day months and it's odd day names. Lore purism is a relative notion and ultimately not always the most beneficial position to RP from. I can say Lightningsday all I want, but if you don't know that's Friday me saying Lightningsday is hurting RP by being inflexible in lore.

 

Second is that lore in this setting is itself remarkably flexible. The lorebooks themselves aren't even perfectly reliable, going so far as to disagree with themselves in text on certain points. There's very, very little in the way of lore not filtered through unreliable narrators. This seems to me to encourage an attitude of "lore plausable" in place of "strictly lore adherent" as what you strictly adhere to is usually a perception of the reality of the story and not an objective reality. The game itself, the strictest adherence possible to lore, is presenting a subjective reality, not an objective one. This is hammered heavily on quite a few different fronts but clearest on the subjective classification of beastmen which are not objectively district from Spoken.

 

And what we're told is true is weird. From Palemoon Parazuzu and werewolves to the fact that all the crossover events have been canon to dragons being aliens, this is a genuinely weird setting. That's glorious, that allows for a lot of player freedom. 

 

This is all a very long way of saying that denying the validity of people traveling to and from the First does not make a person better, nor is someone embracing that potential wrong. Purity of lore adherence is not necessarily better for RP nor is it necessarily that much more accurate given how wholly unreliable the setting we have is. I don't think I know a single person who has never bent lore and I'd be nearly as confident saying almost everyone has ignored something for the conveniences of RP.

 

You don't have to engage with anything, but be very wary of thinking that the ways others enjoy this setting are bad. We are firmly in "judge not lest ye be judged" territory here.

 

All well and good, but I think it's important to remember the reverse: nobody is a bad person just because they don't agree with the plausibility of something within the setting or find it immersion-breaking and choose to ignore it. I imagine that even for yourself, someone RPing the very limits of lore plausibility would be something you'd give yourself the option of rejecting or embracing within your own RP. There's a pretty big gap between a person deciding something feels too "far off" for their own RP, versus judging or controlling other players. I don't think it's fair to imply that anyone in this thread has done the latter--and I think it's also a bit unfair to enter a thread whose premise is to discuss lore plausibilty and personal opinions, and take offense that some of those opinions might not agree with one's own RP. Everyone is entitled to their own RP, 

 

One of the odd things to me about MMO RP vs persistent world RP such as NWN2/NWN1 is MMO RPers seem forced to create their own settings within the settings based on what they find reasonable, rather than having a shared understanding. Of course, these kinds of discussions are good for getting an idea of what other people might prefer. People should feel comfortable RPing their "lore stretch" concepts (and I for one am excited to RP with a few folks on that side of the 'fence'), but they should also feel comfortable RPing their more "lore strict" concepts without fear of being judged by the "lore stretch" side. Everyone's just here after all to craft the stories that make sense and are fulfilling to them, after all, so lack of judgement goes both ways.

 

My two cents!

[Dravus]

I don't subscribe to the idea that anything and everything should be embraced. Everybody is free to do as they please and nobody is saying otherwise - they're simply stating that they're not going to do as much themselves and have no interest in interacting with those who do.

 

On my end, I adhere as strictly to the lore as I can because I enjoy what is readily available to 'normal' inhabitants of the setting and don't feel the need to thrust my character into situations that require a huge amount of stretching and end up putting them centre stage in regards to the overarching narrative.

 

It seems to be whenever someone points out that they're not fully on board with something they're subtly  branded an 'elitist' even though the reality is far more nuanced than that. 

 

Regardless, overlooking small things like the night and day cycle is in no way equal to having a character venture to a completely different world. I also don't believe that a setting being odd in some ways justifies a policy of 'anything is plausible'. Especially when what is 'plausible' is completely subjective.

[Kieron Lohengrin]

9 hours ago, Andromeda said:

There are a couple points I want to make as we seem to be drifting to a "this is wrong/bad/don't do this" stance on allowing Travel.

 

First, the RP community ignores lore all the damn time. From the murky nature of Hingan/Doman being district languages from Hyuran which we as a community have said is unequivocally true to the inconsistent progression of time which we tend to totally ignore, we have dismissed complications in the past in favor of what is more beneficial to RP. Even in small ways like ignoring the in-universe calendar with it's eight-day weeks and 32-day months and it's odd day names. Lore purism is a relative notion and ultimately not always the most beneficial position to RP from. I can say Lightningsday all I want, but if you don't know that's Friday me saying Lightningsday is hurting RP by being inflexible in lore.

 

Second is that lore in this setting is itself remarkably flexible. The lorebooks themselves aren't even perfectly reliable, going so far as to disagree with themselves in text on certain points. There's very, very little in the way of lore not filtered through unreliable narrators. This seems to me to encourage an attitude of "lore plausable" in place of "strictly lore adherent" as what you strictly adhere to is usually a perception of the reality of the story and not an objective reality. The game itself, the strictest adherence possible to lore, is presenting a subjective reality, not an objective one. This is hammered heavily on quite a few different fronts but clearest on the subjective classification of beastmen which are not objectively district from Spoken.

 

And what we're told is true is weird. From Palemoon Parazuzu and werewolves to the fact that all the crossover events have been canon to dragons being aliens, this is a genuinely weird setting. That's glorious, that allows for a lot of player freedom. 

 

This is all a very long way of saying that denying the validity of people traveling to and from the First does not make a person better, nor is someone embracing that potential wrong. Purity of lore adherence is not necessarily better for RP nor is it necessarily that much more accurate given how wholly unreliable the setting we have is. I don't think I know a single person who has never bent lore and I'd be nearly as confident saying almost everyone has ignored something for the conveniences of RP.

 

You don't have to engage with anything, but be very wary of thinking that the ways others enjoy this setting are bad. We are firmly in "judge not lest ye be judged" territory here.

 

It's a bit less about how flexible the lore is, and more about how the "that's WoL-only territory" mindset has been consistently proven wrong by the devs themselves time and time again, to comic effect.

Years ago people were yelling that only one WoL was soloing primals. Until the devs stepped in and said otherwise in Stormblood, with explicitly stated big teams of adventurers for the Far East trials, the Orbonne expeditions, and the Isle of Val. Then, furthermore going on to cement in canon writing that Echo-user / SMN suppression teams are now a regular occurrence in the world whenever the beast tribes act up again.

 

Years ago people were yelling that Lightning's world-crossing event was a freakish one-off. Until the devs explicitly referenced it again for Noctis and got Cid himself + multiple Ironworks staff involved, as well as needing multiple adventurers again for the public FATEs. Never mind Iroha, or Yo-kai, or any of the other wonderfully weird canon occurrences in the setting that you referenced.

I wouldn't worry at all about randos trying to dictate what you're not allowed to plausibly accomplish. With Shad, the setting has entered its Planescape-style mytharc for the average adventuring team. What's to be looked forward to is 5.1-5.X fleshing out and hammering home the two worlds aspect even further.

[Dravus]

The story outright highlights that the Warrior of Light is, at present, the only one who can travel to the First and back to the Source at will. It's a major story point and even serves as part of the ongoing plot threads to be resolved in the future. Perhaps as early as 5.1.

 

Let's not beat around the bush. Those of you who have already decided to have their character travel to the First are likely to do as much no matter what. Nobody is stopping you - they're simply pointing out that it isn't as plausible as is being presented by some and it also isn't something they're interested in engaging with.

 

If you want to bend or break the established lore, go ahead - just don't pretend as if you aren't doing just that. Not everybody is on board with the 'anything goes' approach to role-play, after all.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Taldric

[Andromeda]

On 7/14/2019 at 7:08 PM, Leezil said:

 

All well and good, but I think it's important to remember the reverse: nobody is a bad person just because they don't agree with the plausibility of something within the setting or find it immersion-breaking and choose to ignore it. I imagine that even for yourself, someone RPing the very limits of lore plausibility would be something you'd give yourself the option of rejecting or embracing within your own RP. There's a pretty big gap between a person deciding something feels too "far off" for their own RP, versus judging or controlling other players. I don't think it's fair to imply that anyone in this thread has done the latter--and I think it's also a bit unfair to enter a thread whose premise is to discuss lore plausibilty and personal opinions, and take offense that some of those opinions might not agree with one's own RP. Everyone is entitled to their own RP, 

 

One of the odd things to me about MMO RP vs persistent world RP such as NWN2/NWN1 is MMO RPers seem forced to create their own settings within the settings based on what they find reasonable, rather than having a shared understanding. Of course, these kinds of discussions are good for getting an idea of what other people might prefer. People should feel comfortable RPing their "lore stretch" concepts (and I for one am excited to RP with a few folks on that side of the 'fence'), but they should also feel comfortable RPing their more "lore strict" concepts without fear of being judged by the "lore stretch" side. Everyone's just here after all to craft the stories that make sense and are fulfilling to them, after all, so lack of judgement goes both ways.

 

My two cents!

 

Due respect, but "this is impossible don't do it" is literally the opposite of the OP's intent here. The thread began as being about what could be possible to explain travel. I don't think the thread is or ought to be limited to just their intent, but you're rather mischaracterizing the initial purpose.

 

Which is funny, given that trying to reconcile the original purpose of something with a broader more accessible idea is literally the subject we're discussing 

[Leezil]

6 hours ago, Andromeda said:

 

Due respect, but "this is impossible don't do it" is literally the opposite of the OP's intent here. The thread began as being about what could be possible to explain travel. I don't think the thread is or ought to be limited to just their intent, but you're rather mischaracterizing the initial purpose.

 

Which is funny, given that trying to reconcile the original purpose of something with a broader more accessible idea is literally the subject we're discussing 

 

We could start a new thread for people who would like to discuss all ranges of opinions on the topic.

[Dravus]

I doubt anybody would be in opposition to such a move.

[Reyukka]

So... I actually just made a post about this and hid it after cuz I saw this one. I had the same idea with the fairies but I also had another idea as well. I'll just paste what I was thinking instead of retyping  it up.

 

I'm kinda thinking that maybe the Exarch, in his research to get the Scions back to the Source stumbles upon something and needs to test it out but none of the Scions are presently available (not to mention the fact it could be dangerous). As a result one of the Exarch's assistants volunteers and its successful, however when a Scion tries it doesn't work the same because they are essentially spirits in physical form and don't have their actual bodies leaving the Scions right back where they were but opening up the way for others so that their efforts can be doubled with researchers from the Source. That way it doesn't affect the WoL/WoD storyline too terribly much.

[Valence]

I don't believe in the fairies being able to break every law presented to us by how the universe works between shards. Even if fairies seem to have almost unlimited power when it comes to certain rules answering to their twisted games (so as long as they make it a game, they can conjure insane magics by just snapping their fingers), I really doubt that they would be able to make people traverse the rift itself, even if they can with unanimated (no soul) materials. Otherwise they would just bring your retainers to you directly...

 

But heh, it's rather nebulous either way when it comes to the fairy folk.

[Sohki]

Pending lore in a later patch, probably a 5.3 or 5.4, for traversing back and forth freely, the most lore-accepting way to RP on the First is probably to RP a Suspiciously Similar Substitute for your character, and if people really analyze it just handwave it with some of the comments from Emet on the nature of souls.

 

If you absolutely need it to be your character, odds are you have some kind of ongoing plot that is taking you there and you can weave an explanation into said ongoing plot.

[Allen Vorshaire]

I'm just flat out thinking of creating an alt who's of the First itself and seeing if anyone bites, until the quell of arguments about travel are eased a little. After all, it's got so much RP potential!

[Yunaizanagi]

I just wanted to help OP a little. We know Mhachi mages outright tore the boundaries between Source and 13th with raw and surplus aether. We also know Arcanima is a magick that works through transmutation or restructuring of aether. Anyone who got curious, googled the ACN/SCH/SMN skills and what they mean and wondered how they worked, will notice that Arcanima is basically science-magic. Now to the point! An individual who really wants to, can open a rift, rather than in the Mhachi style of tearing open a rift, arcanima should allow the rearrangement of aether to create a rift between Source and any other realm. We know Flow uses aetherial sea and so does Aetherytes, so arcanima can be used to easily create a doorway to the aetherial sea. Okay you guys with me still? Now once in the sea, a path can be structured. The key however is YES, a lot of aether will be required to make a travel but not a crazy amount, thanks to arcanima which allows the use of very minuscule aether to achieve effects that are quite devastating. The trick however will be: "where to look?" Now we know that Amdapor has peered into the First at some point cause their golems are based on sin eaters and talos mechanics, both of which is very available to First but not so much on Source, so how did they figure them? Because they probably sought for an aetherical source that was the opposite of what the Mhach's used. While Mhach's (and i love how it aligns even tho we didnt know this before) sought for most destructive aetherical sources to further enhance their destructive capacities because lets be honest, Mhachs loved nothing more than BOOM and BIGGER BIGGER BOOMS! So they sought for the most destructive and chaotic aether and they stumbled upon 13th, dark aspected aether which was extremely chaotic. The amdapor on the other hand therefore sought for the most organised, most ordered aether, the Light aspects, it's luminescence could very easily be mistaken to be something holy and since its a very static based aether, extreme order and all, they prolly thought "hey, this aetheric source is not only opposite of those Mhachi aether but it looks really God-like, divine and all!" so they peered into where this aether came from. Probably some even learned to communicate there. 

With that said and done, get a mage who is adept and has a very good and advanced understanding of how arcanima works, get your info on aetherial sea, aetherytes and all, go find a way to the Conjurer's and ask them about their Amdapori days, where does the golems come from. They'll point you... eventually!