Choose: Good tank or good healer?

[Kage]

I have no idea how DRG works but I've had one DRG I respect tell me that the more mobs pulled, the better and more efficient it is for them to kill in things like a Brayflox HM run.

 

I've seen Titan HM runs where the entire run falls apart because the healer just can't keep it up while all the dps just... are... average or below average players. >.<; A good tank does you no real good if the healer(s) can't keep them up through even tumults. I can't tell you how many Trials roulettes I got into in Titan HM where I actually died to Tumults because the healers were a little subpar... and the dps were a little subpar as well so it just made the fights longer and the tumults hit harder. My PLD ego just drops when I die to tumults. T_T;

 

I will say though I've had a few Titan HM runs where the tank or either of the tanks just... can't keep hate. I'm not sure if it's because WARs just have -that- hard of a time keeping Titan's hate but a running Titan is not a fun Titan. Especially when you're a glass cannon like BLM is. Glassy yo.

 

It does sometimes annoy me to see a healer who has a large MP pool and just sits there waiting for a tank to take damage instead of doing something like a few DoTs, aeros, or stones. But I don't begrudge them when it's pretty obvious that they're more worried about healing than just keeping people topped off and making the run as efficient and expedient as can be.

 

...I also don't begrudge SCH who just go on /follow through the low levels. If they can do DoTs and others that'd be wonderful but at the low levels I just don't expect much. Healers' main job is to heal and to do others is just extra bacon on the gravy.

[Oscare]

I feel like a healer's role is the most simple, yet the most depended on in raids and parties. Firstly, healers do not have a rotation. This already makes their role a little easier to grasp, they just need to look at the situation, look at their resources, and make the most effective judgement to keep the party alive. Of course, there are don'ts in being a healer, such as White Mage, please do not keep spamming Cure III unless the target really desperately needs it. @_@ It's really not necessary and it just ends up being an MP sink. I concur with Eva and Freelance, the healer is supposed to adapt and be aware of the situation, unlike tanks and DPS who are more focused on being aware on their positioning and debuffs and DoTs. 

 

Secondly, if anyone ever expects you to DPS as a healer, punch them in the face. Or, do /slap one we get that. Because that is BY far the DUMBEST thing any healer can do. DPS. Unless there is a period of low/calm damage (example would be in Sunken Temple of Qarn, second boss. After you break his soulstone, he can't deal damage. That's when a healer can DPS), then the healer shouldn't be DPSing. That'll just lead to an MP sink, you won't be able to heal, and then a wipe. Not a smart move.

 

EDIT: Okay, I forgot to include Holy. Holy is very good for cleaning out adds, but the primary focus should still be healing, then wait for a calm period of damage to DPS/Holy.

[Sounsyy]

First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

 

Again, I'm tank and healer, and as a Healer I've been guilty of letting a tank die once or twice because I was DPSing. It happens, just like tanks forgetting Oath/Defiance. But in my experience spamming expert roulettes for animus and novus, I notice those tanks who drop during sac pulls are almost always the tanks that don't buff. They'll throw out maybe a convalescence and they're done. Liiiiiiike, really? Gimme a rampart or a vengeance or something to work with here.

 

Granted, during sac pulls, the healer's priority is stabilizing your tank. For SCH this is usually Rouse + Adlo. Just by doing that it gives me enough time to get off a Swiftcast Shadowflare and Miasma II on the whole sac pull. When there's a few less mobs out I can swap to Cleric and do my full DoT rotation and bane it around.

 

But I politely disagree. I think DPS is actually a part of the Healers job, just as Enmity and Mitigation and DPS is a part of a tank's. 10/23 of your SCH skills are DPS skills and 7/22 for WHM. You shouldn't be ignoring an average 40% of your skill list, since its a good portion of your job. By adding to your Party's overall DPS output on small groups, bosses, and sac pulls, you hasten kill times which equals less damage that your tank/party ends up taking. The longer that sac pull takes to kill, the more likely your tank is going to go down and you're going to run out of MP. This is of course within reason, if you don't think you can keep your tank up and do DPS, don't DPS until it's safe. But to me, a healer who never DPSes is like a tank who never uses buffs.

[K'nahli]

A good tank does you no real good if the healer(s) can't keep them up through even tumults.

 

True! But a good healer does you no real good if the tank doesn't understand where to position himself and that Spiny plumes are not to be ignored, haha.

[cuideag]

I think I'd take the good tank, someone who can a) hold aggro!, b) play their class and know how to manage cooldowns etc to help out the "bad healer", c) know the dungeons/encounters and be able to lead their groups accordingly. I main a Monk but I also play 50 Warrior and 50 Scholar so it's pretty easy to see that every role has something that they have to bring to the table. It's probably one of the things I like the most about this game: while it's definitely possible to carry folks through some content, there's plenty others where everyone has to be on the ball or else things probably aren't going to go well.

[K'nahli]

I haven't done any extreme primals nor Coil as a tank yet but every time I see talk about cooldown/buff management I get a little nervous. Can anyone give me some examples of when and where you use these aside from when you're blatantly suffering extra, continuous damage or lose a healer? Maybe I am imagining it as more complicated than it actually is meant.

[Faye]

Good tank, because I've got the good healer part covered. ;D To be serious, though, barring a few instances that are heavily dependent on tanks, no matter how bad a tank is, a good healer can usually compensate. The same can't really be said vice-versa. I've been in many instances where the tank has bailed and the rest of the party clears trash mobs, or even sometimes bosses, as we wait for a new tank. It's easier to do that without a tank than it is to do without a healer. I'd say in general, a good healer is more important than a good tank, excluding in certain dungeons.

[Kage]

It takes a while to get used to but if you're a PLD you don't want to blow all of your cooldowns at once. Aka you save things like Sentinel for when you know those hard hitting moves like Titan's Mountain Buster is going to hit you in the face.

 

The one time I tanked Garuda Ex I wanted to cry. (I'm so, so, so sorry. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE T_T)

 

We took about 2 duties for the clear and most of the one was me figuring out what I SHOULD and COULD do. Though.... I guess that is mostly spiny management. >.>; like, why use provoke on Suparna if she's going to die soon and the spiny aoe plume phase is about to start? Cause Kage is a dumbass no-good tank that's why.

[cuideag]

I haven't done any extreme primals nor Coil as a tank yet but every time I see talk about cooldown/buff management I get a little nervous. Can anyone give me some examples of when and where you use these aside from when you're blatantly suffering extra, continuous damage or lose a healer? Maybe I am imagining it as more complicated than it actually is meant.

Easy example: Garuda Extreme as MT. When you're holding Garuda/Suparna, knowing when to pop a cooldown so you don't get mauled by double Wicked Wheels (OUCH) can save your life if you aren't overgearing the encounter yet.

[Faye]

First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

 

On a lot of pulls, yes, tanks take little damage and throwing in DPS is fine and hey makes it go a little quicker. But at the end of the day, DPS is not the healer's job. If I have PUG healers that don't DPS, its usually because they're still learning. This game has become needlessly hostile to people actually learning their roles who have the audacity to run without a full pre-made party.

 

Not that I'm against healers ever throwing in DPS, I just don't really care how much they do it or not.

 

Gonna chime in and say I agree. I think healers DPSing is being bull-poopy, at least for WHM's. DPS isn't our job--hence us being healers, not DPS. One of few exceptions is when you're a level 50 running lowbie dungeons--then you have plenty of breathing room to DPS. Otherwise, you should focus on mana management and keeping the party topped off. You never know when someone might fail to dodge an AOE and nearly be one-shot. You have to be ready to heal any time, so you shouldn't get yourself stuck casting DPS spells in Cleric Stance or run out of OoM. The damage you do as a healer is so minimal that your efforts are usually better spent healing. If the DPS in your party aren't undergeared or just bad, they should be killing mobs at a decent speed regardless and you shouldn't be required to help them do their own job.

 

I never DPS as WHM and I have to say I've gotten my fair share of compliments and commendations. On the other hand, when I've leveled tank and DPS alts, I've been in parties where people have died or we've even wiped because the healer decided they were more interested in DPSing than healing and forgot to pay attention to HP bars or wasted all their mana. For the love of all that is good, if you're a WHM please don't DPS unless you know what you're doing and you have absolutely nothing else to do. Let people complain that you aren't DPSing (though I've never seen that happen in a dungeon, at least not on just trash mobs). DPSing isn't your job.

 

(Exceptions being stuff like Titan's Heart, Garuda's plumes, the bombs in Brayflox HM, etc. Anything that needs to be killed in a certain time limit or it will wipe the party, you can certainly assist with attacking.)

[Oscare]

Cooldown usage is typically used by tanks during a time of very, very high damage due to mechanics or just dangerous attacks(see above: Garuda-Suparna Double Wicked Wheel. That thing will hurt.). If there isn't a period of extremely high damage (which I don't think exists), then cooldowns should just be used if you're below half. At least, that's when I'd use it as a tank. I don't tank often though, so take that opinion with a grain of salt.

[Sounsyy]

I haven't done any extreme primals nor Coil as a tank yet but every time I see talk about cooldown/buff management I get a little nervous. Can anyone give me some examples of when and where you use these aside from when you're blatantly suffering extra, continuous damage or lose a healer? Maybe I am imagining it as more complicated than it actually is meant.

 

It's not overly complicated and a lot of it is actually Tank preference or comfort with his/her healer. There's only a few cases where you'll want to use a certain buff at a certain time. Basically don't stack certain buffs and allow yourself to get the full effects of each buff.

 

So for example, in T4 the fight is only a max of 6 minutes long. So depending on when you use certain buffs, you may never get them off cooldown again that run. So timing your buffs is important. When I MT'd T4 as PLD, I staggered one strong buff and one weak buff per Dreadnaught so that I always had buffs available the whole fight. Or when OTing as WAR I blew most of my cooldowns on kiting 2x soldiers 2x knights while healers focused MT tanking Dreads.

 

T5 is a great example of a fight requiring careful CD timing. If you're MTing Twintania as WAR you'll want to save your wrath stacks for Inner Beast every time Death Sentence is about to happen. For OTing as PLD or MTing as PLD solo-tank method, you'll want to use Tempered Will after her 4th or 5th Divebomb when you're running across the field for snakes. If you're the PLD standing in the neural link during the last phase of the fight you'll want to have Hallowed Ground ready if you get targeted for Liquid Hell spam.

 

Just little things like that. And you'll pick these things up when you are tanking the fights. For instance whenever you tank swap it's great if you pop a buff like Inner Beast or Rampart just so Healers have a smooth transition. Or when you're doing Garuda X, you'll quickly learn that taking a double Wicked Wheel unbuffed isn't fun. Hallowed Ground and Sentinel are your best friends in T6 during super slug. Etc Etc

[Crisiet]

However, for a lot of content I see eos healing and healer dpsing, especially with a good tank.

 

My main class when not playing a DRG is SCH. The amount of times I've had to save main scenario groups because the other healer was pulling that crap is unbelievable. 

 

Seriously, I can't tell you how much it irks me when I see a SCH leaving the fae to do the healing while they sit on their merry arse or dps away. The fae WILL be overwhelmed by the damage taken eventually. 

 

... Of course if there are assholes in the group I like to tell them that I hope eos can keep up with their damage. I too, am an asshole you see,

 

I stand by my prior reasoning. A good healer can salvage most horrible situations. A good tank is taking damage regardless of the healer's skill and will die eventually if that healer can't keep up.

[projektai]

First, to the whole "Healer DPS" thing, I'm going to advocate more of the other side. I'm a full-time tank, and I have died because the healer chose to DPS then couldn't get me back up. (This is due to big pulls, I don't have crappy gear or anything) The most common I see is "Oh, I'll Holy until they're low then use Benediction." Dead.

 

On a lot of pulls, yes, tanks take little damage and throwing in DPS is fine and hey makes it go a little quicker. But at the end of the day, DPS is not the healer's job. If I have PUG healers that don't DPS, its usually because they're still learning. This game has become needlessly hostile to people actually learning their roles who have the audacity to run without a full pre-made party.

 

Not that I'm against healers ever throwing in DPS, I just don't really care how much they do it or not.

 

Gonna chime in and say I agree. I think healers DPSing is being bull-poopy, at least for WHM's. DPS isn't our job--hence us being healers, not DPS. One of few exceptions is when you're a level 50 running lowbie dungeons--then you have plenty of breathing room to DPS. Otherwise, you should focus on mana management and keeping the party topped off. You never know when someone might fail to dodge an AOE and nearly be one-shot. You have to be ready to heal any time, so you shouldn't get yourself stuck casting DPS spells in Cleric Stance or run out of OoM. The damage you do as a healer is so minimal that your efforts are usually better spent healing. If the DPS in your party aren't undergeared or just bad, they should be killing mobs at a decent speed regardless and you shouldn't be required to help them do their own job.

 

I never DPS as WHM and I have to say I've gotten my fair share of compliments and commendations. On the other hand, when I've leveled tank and DPS alts, I've been in parties where people have died or we've even wiped because the healer decided they were more interested in DPSing than healing and forgot to pay attention to HP bars or wasted all their mana. For the love of all that is good, if you're a WHM please don't DPS unless you know what you're doing and you have absolutely nothing else to do. Let people complain that you aren't DPSing (though I've never seen that happen in a dungeon, at least not on just trash mobs). DPSing isn't your job.

 

(Exceptions being stuff like Titan's Heart, Garuda's plumes, the bombs in Brayflox HM, etc. Anything that needs to be killed in a certain time limit or it will wipe the party, you can certainly assist with attacking.)

 

It's so good to see you guys say this. I'm nearing lvl 50 on my first job, which just happens to be WHM, and I've only been with the game about two months now. As one of those WHM who's learning a lot about how to play and the schemes of each dungeon, I DO focus on healing. I'd like to think I'm doing a decent job as a healer, but it's a bit nerve-wracking to get in a PUG group and have people complaining about the WHM not DPSing. So thank you!

 

And on that note, as a WHM... I always choose good tank. I've seen one or two amazing tanks, and they have made me starstruck.

[Eva]

It's so good to see you guys say this. I'm nearing lvl 50 on my first job, which just happens to be WHM, and I've only been with the game about two months now. As one of those WHM who's learning a lot about how to play and the schemes of each dungeon, I DO focus on healing. I'd like to think I'm doing a decent job as a healer, but it's a bit nerve-wracking to get in a PUG group and have people complaining about the WHM not DPSing. So thank you!

 

Definitely do not stress about this. If you are in a place where you are unsure whether or not you should be DPSing, you almost certainly should not be. With time and practice you'll find those gaps between spells where you can slip into Cleric Stance and do a little bit of damage to help speed things along. But this comes with practice, and you will be comfortable and know when you can do this and when you can't. If people hassle you about not helping with DPSing you might remind them that nobody can DPS at 0 hp. :thumbsup:

[Melkire]

Disclaimer: I started off leveling a WAR on a different server. Reached and cleared Binding Coil Turn 1 and Garuda EX on it before swapping to a new toon on Balmung and re-leveling WAR. I haven't played a healer class past level 30 content yet.

 

 

It all comes down to the overall DPS race. By which I mean, per each pull/encounter/boss, will your party be able to soak inbound damage and deal enough outbound damage to clear the room before you wipe, or will they not be able to?

 

Case in point, was running Darkhold at roughly midnight last night when we reached Taulurd. Our healer was new to the instance, had asked for advice, and we'd given it (to paraphrase, "most important thing here is to dodge everything and for healer to keep everyone topped off"). NATURALLY, the healer was the first to die - God knows how - within the first minute or two. Our BLM took over healing, and we managed to stretch it out. We were nearly there when first our other DPS went down, then our BLM... leaving me as Warrior with a rather significant chunk of the boss' HP to burn through.

 

Not bragging, just making a point: good use of offensive and defensive cooldowns resulted in enough mitigation at the right times, enough self-healing, and enough damage output to eke out a clear.

 

I've seen the inverse happen, as well: for instance, I've seen tanks wipe (and been one!) on T1 only for the healers to successfully kite Caduceus alongside ranged DPS to, again, eke out a clear.

 

Good tanks and good healers are both valuable. It just so happens that due to the nature of low level instances, good tanks are not a requisite for clearing most content, whereas healers are universally valuable regardless of the level of content.

 

That said, I will take a good tank over a good healer any day because ultimately the tank brings the most control to the table (see: enmity), and that control is invaluable for smooth runs.

 

As always, the enemy in Final Fantasy is Chaos. :tonberry:

[Dravus]

I'm in favour of a good healer since they can usually counter the damage that a bad tank can do to a party - especially if there's a 'tanky' DPS available to stop stray adds from going crazy.

[LiadansWhisper]

So, if you had to chose between having a good tank and a bad healer, or a bad tank and a good healer, which would you choose? Personally, I'd choose a good tank. Maybe that's the obvious choice, but maybe not.

 

As a healer, I AM the good healer. :-P

 

Tanks die really quickly if healers don't know what the hell they're doing.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

It's so good to see you guys say this. I'm nearing lvl 50 on my first job, which just happens to be WHM, and I've only been with the game about two months now. As one of those WHM who's learning a lot about how to play and the schemes of each dungeon, I DO focus on healing. I'd like to think I'm doing a decent job as a healer, but it's a bit nerve-wracking to get in a PUG group and have people complaining about the WHM not DPSing. So thank you!

 

And on that note, as a WHM... I always choose good tank. I've seen one or two amazing tanks, and they have made me starstruck.

 

Do not, do not, do not let those weird snobs on the main forums convince you that you are somehow a "bad" healer if you don't DPS at every opportunity.  They are living in Magical Fantasy Land where they run with their static group and never have an issue with a tank.  In Reality Land , which is where everyone else lives, tanks in randoms are, quite often, way too squishy to do anything but babysit as is (and if it's not the tanks, it's the DPS who are attempting to be tanks and failing horribly).  Unless you're 100% comfortable with the fight and the people you're with, I'd advise against DPSing.  The GCD is simply too damn long for major mistakes.

[Melodia]

 

 

They are living in Magical Fantasy Land where they run with their static group and never have an issue with a tank.  In Reality Land ,

 

 

LOL!!! You added the "tm" which made me laugh. :lol:

[Crisiet]

If a healer can successfully integrate DPS without any negative impact on their healing, I don't mind at all. When that gets the group wiped though... Bleh. 

 

Do what you're most comfortable with, taking the pace the tank has set into account.