Personal Housing Thread 2.0

[Naunet]

I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

 

Huh? Elaborate, because people complaining about horrendous server problems (the Great Error Singularity of launch) or being unable to beat Titan Hard Mode are not in any way, shape, or form similar to SE failing - through deliberate or unintended stupidity - to take into account how much MMO players love housing systems these days.

[K'nahli]

It'd be great if you could stop resorting to hyperbole and trying to twist other poster's words to be read in the worst possible manner. Role-players really are their own worst enemy and it's very telling that I can have this exact same discussion on a site like MMO-Champion yet the community and individuals here that love to market themselves as 'friendly and welcoming' can't stop sniping at each other.

 

(This was clarified for me by Warren but I'll leave it here since it expresses a point nonetheless. Sorry for the confusion)

 

Was this directed towards me? I made my post at work so I had to rush it a little and if I came off a certain way(negatively, that is) then that was not my intent. I am not trying to deny anyone's right to be angry or voice their complaints. My only stance on it is that I disagree with how many people are treating it as though Yoshi knew exactly what he was doing and what was going to happen when in reality that makes no sense at all. Again, he could have handled it better, but everything is always clearer in hindsight and I have yet to hear a compelling argument that can even make me consider the idea that he was trying to pull a fast one on us.

 

 

 

Is it unreasonable to believe that Yoshi didn't realise that a non-unique housing ward for personal homes was that big of a deal?

 

It's not necessarily unreasonable, but that would certainly make him stupid. Anyone can look at the trend in MMOs today and see that personal housing is extremely important to the playerbase.

 

I didn't mean on a permanent basis but to assume that going the route he did was perfectly fine as a starting point because, despite what some people say, I think he had an extremely valid point. Regardless of how anyone feels about empty FCs, that's just (clearly much-needed) server space going to a complete waste.

 

Lets not forget that we're a community all socialising with one another, sharing ideas and anticipations about upcoming content that can easily be read into as fact over lengthy periods of time like the one we had leading up to it's implementation... all because a certain aspect wasn't detailed or mentioned previously, whether Yoshi neglected to think of it or simply overlooked it as something that required addressing.

 

I can only speculate of course but the malicious, conspiracy theories(as they almost sound) are just completely unfounded in my opinion. I really like Yoshi and I want to believe that he would "do no wrong", but that doesn't mean that I will make excuses for him or blindly defend him either. I am only doing so because it seems the only reasonable route to me.

 

I know I might receive flak for this and might get mocked in a sense, but it's the wording that is throwing me a little bit. There is a big difference between "feeling" that you have been lied to and genuinely having being lied to. I know Yoshi won't ever read this but I think it's only courtesy to not accuse anyone of anything without true merit; it's very unfair to the man in my opinion.

[Warren Castille]

I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

 

Huh? Elaborate, because people complaining about horrendous server problems (the Great Error Singularity of launch) or being unable to beat Titan Hard Mode are not in any way, shape, or form similar to SE failing - through deliberate or unintended stupidity - to take into account how much MMO players love housing systems these days.

 

I'd have to dig to find the posts for it on the OF, but people flipped their lids over losing early acces ("It's part of my pre-order, you owe me my money back") and the server congestion ("You owe me free time because I can't log in"). People complained that Titan was too hard and unfair and threatened to unsub.

 

People are always going to be unhappy, people are always going to threaten to leave, people are always going to cry foul. That doesn't mean anyone's points here are invalid (again, I agree with the sentiments) but this is just the new topic to rage over.

[Naunet]

I'd have to dig to find the posts for it on the OF, but people flipped their lids over losing early acces ("It's part of my pre-order, you owe me my money back") and the server congestion ("You owe me free time because I can't log in"). People complained that Titan was too hard and unfair and threatened to unsub.

 

And still none of those are the same kind of issue as the housing mess. o.0

 

And your last paragraph is completely unproductive.

[Warren Castille]

And still none of those are the same kind of issue as the housing mess. o.0

 

And your last paragraph is completely unproductive.

 

I'm... sorry? I'm doing an awful job of conveying my point, I guess. My fault for posting at work.

 

I consider them the same kind of issue because it comes down to expectations not being met by SE. People wanted Early Access and were denied for reasons outside of their control. People wanted to log in, same dilemma.

 

People wanted personal housing, and they feel lied to and mislead because of how it got implemented. Except it wasn't really a lie, because the original word hinted at things we'd get, exactly when they said we'd get them. Players wanted but didn't get so they're feeling let down.

 

The point of my second paragraph is that people are always going to complain about something. Some of those complaints are valid and constructive, but most of them are just noise at best, or are deliberately trying to antagonize SE at worst.

[Aldotsk]

God , I remember when SEGA ignored all fans about PSO2 NA for two years straight as well as Blade and Soul, yet no one talks about that... And also how Sony said they'd release UMD converter for PSPGo owners and they completely disregarded it and never answered properly. But for FFXIV 1.0 there were more complaint than this too. Now it's all about housing because there weren't enough plots for everyone or at least how Yoshida "lied" about not making it personal housing area only (or have a lot of wards).

 

It's been like only a week since it first launched and people are losing their minds, and the game has existed for only a year and housing existed for only 9 months. Not to add, personal rooms were implemented like about a month or two ago... How much do we need to demand a lot for us to be satisfied? It's been accomplished for short time and yet people are still not happy. Some games like WoW are -now- adding Garrison system when game has existed for like over 10 years and no one said anything about housing decorations or systems.

 

Is waiting for another year or so to implement stuffs into this game such a big deal? If we get everything at once , people will get tired of the game in the end because devs put everything in the game .

 

Also did I mention that first housing for FC was 210-230 million Gil for large plots in Sargantas and Balmung on first patch and everyone were yelling at Yoshida about it saying he's an "idiot" for thinking people have that much? Like small plots were 20+ million and the room was small as hell before they added basement.

[Dravus]

I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

 

Huh? Elaborate, because people complaining about horrendous server problems (the Great Error Singularity of launch) or being unable to beat Titan Hard Mode are not in any way, shape, or form similar to SE failing - through deliberate or unintended stupidity - to take into account how much MMO players love housing systems these days.

 

It's also worth noting that businesses are generally expected to be very up to date with trends and what their rivals are doing. This is why many MMO's are accused of 'copying' each other - if a particular feature is highly praised in one MMO then there's a good chance it'll be incorporated in a similar manner in another MMO. 

 

So it's perfectly reasonable for players to assume that solo housing would be accessible, especially given that there was no elaboration or indication to outline that it wouldn't be.

 

I'm also baffled by the solution of 'just wait a year' being put forth. That...isn't really a solution but rather a sly means of trying to get people to shut up and not discuss what is blatantly an issue that divides the community. It's particularly ironic when people have already been waiting months and months for individual housing to be implemented only to be disappointed.

 

If you're willing to be patient and accept things as they are now, that's fine - but there is absolutely no reason for certain people to be stifling all forms of constructive criticism in the way in which they are currently.

[ArmachiA]

 

I can only speculate of course but the malicious, conspiracy theories(as they almost sound) are just completely unfounded in my opinion. I really like Yoshi and I want to believe that he would "do no wrong", but that doesn't mean that I will make excuses for him or blindly defend him either. I am only doing so because it seems the only reasonable route to me.

 

I know I might receive flak for this and might get mocked in a sense, but it's the wording that is throwing me a little bit. There is a big difference between "feeling" that you have been lied to and genuinely having being lied to. I know Yoshi won't ever read this but I think it's only courtesy to not accuse anyone of anything without true merit; it's very unfair to the man in my opinion.

 

Not for nothing, but I don't really owe Yoshi-P the benefit of the doubt here. I'm paying him to provide me a service, just like everyone else is. He isnt my friend, I don't -know- him. Sure he seems like an affable guy and is generally respected, but that doesn't mean I owe him any kind of benefit of the doubt. At the end of the day he's a business man who needs to make money for a failing company and his game is one of the only reasons said Company is even in the black currently. Do I think that means they will hold back information from their playerbase so they don't lose people? Absolutely. This game has to be a success for them. There is no other option.

 

This doesn't even mean I dislike Yoshi-P. I like the guy. I've defended him all over the place, I think his heart is generally in the right place. But that means literally nothing because I like a -persona-. I don't know who he really is. And even my best friends will get called out when they are acting Shady. You want me to treat Yoshi-P better than my actual friends? He's being called out and he deserves it. There are varying degrees of called out from mildly annoyed to extremely angry that they quit the game. All of them are valid.

 

Sure, it may blow over. I'll stop being mad at my friend who was shady, too. But let them be mad right now.

[Blue]

God , I remember when SEGA ignored all fans about PSO2 NA for two years straight as well as Blade and Soul, yet no one talks about that... And also how Sony said they'd release UMD converter for PSPGo owners and they completely disregarded it and never answered properly. But for FFXIV 1.0 there were more complaint than this too. Now it's all about housing because there weren't enough plots for everyone or at least how Yoshida "lied" about not making it personal housing area only (or have a lot of wards).

 

It's been like only a week since it first launched and people are losing their minds, and the game has existed for only a year and housing existed for only 9 months. Not to add, personal rooms were implemented like about a month or two ago... How much do we need to demand a lot for us to be satisfied? It's been accomplished for short time and yet people are still not happy. Some games like WoW are -now- adding Garrison system when game has existed for like over 10 years and no one said anything about housing decorations or systems.

 

Is waiting for another year or so to implement stuffs into this game such a big deal? If we get everything at once , people will get tired of the game in the end because devs put everything in the game .

 

Also did I mention that first housing for FC was 210-230 million Gil for large plots in Sargantas and Balmung on first patch and everyone were yelling at Yoshida about it saying he's an "idiot" for thinking people have that much? Like small plots were 20+ million and the room was small as hell before they added basement.

I believe it's not even a matter of demand, as more of a matter of expectations being failed. A few times in a row, Square Enix has released content that was promised to be very fun and elaborated, only to give instead very cheap versions of what they sounded like their content would be:

 

- Chocobo raising: They ended up not releasing an actual "raising chocobos" feature, but instead only "chocobo training", where you give an adult chocobo some exp through a cutscene and a lot of gil sink. When you hear "raising", you think breeding, you think chocobo eggs, hatchlings and mini-games. Even FFXI's version ended up being superior to what we got.

 

- Chocobo colouring: Since we can't breed chocobos, an FFVII/FFXI style of chocobo coloring is out of question. To have access to all dyes is great, but the RNG system and -again- huge gil sink around it demoralized a lot of players. On top of disappointing cake is the fact that it's restricted to players who actually have Housing.

 

- Housing: I'm sure I don't have to explain where the disappointment with housing is. What made it worse was Yoshida's statement (to the request of instanced personal housing), that there wouldn't be enough servers to make those instances. Yet, an FC house can instance over 500 rooms. I believe some lack of thought was had here.

 

Overall, the community is disappointed of how Yoshida seems to be stepping away from the community more and more. Let's not forget that A Realm Reborn is game that was created thanks to this very community's feedback and requests. Nothing better that you pay to be given what you actually want, no?

 

All in all, I have now very little faith in SE's possibilities, and am expecting Gold Saucer to be yet another big disappointment, but we'll see I guess. I would have preferred them to take more time and not release personal housing yet to instead make something that could actually be available to everyone. And Twelve know if they do need time, considering that in nine months all they did was add a "Buy As Personal Estate" button on the Welcome Placard.

[Aldotsk]

In my ideals of business and consumer, I always had this ideal:

"You can't satisfy everyone. They all have different opinions , but you try to do your best to satisfy and provide as much as possible. 50% will like it but 50% hate it. Sometimes you make something for people and even if 30% are upset about your product, you have to look at 70% who are happy and doesn't want change and try to stick with 70% to make them happy and choose your company and your product again"

[Blue]

In my ideals of business and consumer, I always had this ideal:

"You can't satisfy everyone. They all have different opinions , but you try to do your best to satisfy and provide as much as possible. 50% will like it but 50% hate it. Sometimes you make something for people and even if 30% are upset about your product, you have to look at 70% who are happy and doesn't want change and try to stick with 70% to make them happy and choose your company and your product again"

Right, but here we're talking about a content that after 2.4's wards doubling will cover around 2% of the playerbase.

 

(Not to mention there are already people who own multiple personal houses only to have more gardening plots and do not even use the houses themselves. It's hopefully rare, but I've already seen a couple people confessing it in the official forums).

[Dravus]

You can't please everybody, sure - but then I'm not sure why people are bringing that up as a point when the current model revolves around appeasing a very tiny portion of the game's population whilst ticking off or excluding everybody else.

 

That isn't a great situation to be in and the burden is on FFXIV's developers to find an efficient solution or compromise. It's not even that the criticism aimed at FFXIV is spiteful - most of us, I assume, want the game to thrive and be successful because we enjoy it and want to continue to invest in it.

[LiadansWhisper]

In my ideals of business and consumer, I always had this ideal:

"You can't satisfy everyone. They all have different opinions , but you try to do your best to satisfy and provide as much as possible. 50% will like it but 50% hate it. Sometimes you make something for people and even if 30% are upset about your product, you have to look at 70% who are happy and doesn't want change and try to stick with 70% to make them happy and choose your company and your product again"

 

It's a false dichotomy, however.  You're right - you can't make everyone happy.  That's a basic tenet of the human race, I think.  But there's a difference between people not being happy with something you produce because they're just being difficult, and you hyping something up, promising things you can't deliver, and then standing there going, "Why are you all angry" when people are upset that you delivered them a ukelele when they'd ordered - and you'd promised - a violin.  No, you can't make everyone happy, but you can give every single customer the best possible customer service, empathizing with their issues and trying to make what you have work for them as much as is at all possible.  Because if you don't, you end up like a big box retailer, bankrupt and broke.

 

SE can't afford to jerk around its customers.  They aren't Blizzard, who could shed several more million subscribers before having any real issues to contend with.  Armia is right - SE can't afford to lose customers to stuff like this.  FFXIV is the only reason they're in the green, and they need it to stay that way.  Just saying, "Well, you can't please everyone!" isn't going to hold up if this is the kind of behavior that the devs continue to express.  People are far quicker to vote with their wallets these days.

[Clover]

I have to agree with most of the things K'nahli said. The way people are handling this matter is sounding kinda malicious and out of proportion, as they seem to be doing efforts to *try* to discredit SE. This is reinforced when I even see people who no longer play FFXIV (because they don't like it), complaining that they can't have a house now.

 

This is what I see when I look at the situation:

 

-Yoshida said we'd get personal houses. We did.

-He said he'd add more. 2.4 will deliver more.

-Kage pointed out that Yoshida's working on finding the way to add as many houses as possible, which means he's aware of the demand.

-Prices are also going down, so they shouldn't be a problem in the future.

 

Now, I'm genuinely lost here, so please excuse the obscene amount of questions. Where did he lie? Did he simply not meet the personal expectations some people created on their own? Is it about people wanting brand new maps and getting the old ones instead? How is that even a big deal if we can still have houses in such beautiful neighbourhoods? Where did he even promise that such a thing would be definitely delivered? In case he did, who says we aren't getting that in the future, considering that the housing system isn't half done yet? Or is this about the *current* lack of wards, completely ignoring the fact we'll get more and that they're working on ways to add even more?

 

I'm genuinely lost as to where all this strong anger and complete lack of hope is coming from. What's more, in case Yoshida limits himself to simply add thousands of new houses and there are *still* players who can't get them, this is still how most MMORPGs with housing system work. Aion has limited space. Archeage has limited space. Black Desert has had limited space so far. The other games I've played don't even have house system. I don't know how Wildstar works, but if houses are completely instanced, then I personally wouldn't like them (and if they're not, the few screenshots I've seen weren't of my liking either). So it always will come down to personal preference.

 

People who are feeling strongly against the current system, even when they're told that the currenty system isn't final, are free to leave. I personally will be enoying my house when it's released, and I have no reasons to think it won't be @_@

[ArmachiA]

He said "Personal Housing will be separate than FC house and therefore much more affordable."

 

This isn't what happened.

 

Yes he said it 9 months ago, but he never updated the position. If you say your mother is alive 9 months ago and never tell me she died 3 months ago, I'm gonna assume she's still alive. That's how updates work. Keep people informed or their going to refer to your last on the record stance.

[Warren Castille]

Does anybody know anyone who actually quit over this?

[Berrod Armstrong]

Does anybody know anyone who actually quit over this?

A few people have claimed to unsub or 'moved on', but it's been like a week so I'm not even counting it. If they're still gone after a month or two then I'll call it a yes. 

 

Lol.

[Kage]

Does anybody know anyone who actually quit over this?

A few people have claimed to unsub or 'moved on', but it's been like a week so I'm not even counting it. If they're still gone after a month or two then I'll call it a yes. 

 

Lol.

Kage calls it quits.

 

Comes back not even a day later.

[Dravus]

Nobody is being malicious in their criticism of the housing fiasco. A developer said one thing and did another. This isn't anything new - it's been happening in pretty much every MMO out there be it WoW, Rift, GW2, SWTOR and so on.

 

The only malicious thing going on within this thread is the unfortunate habit some individuals have in attacking and belittling pretty much anyone who isn't worshiping the ground on which Yoshi-P walks on. He's only human and he made a mistake. Nobody is suggesting that he's a terrible person or that he should lose his job.

 

Accountability, however, is important. He's admitted his mistake and so...there's not much point in claiming that he put his point across well as he himself has stated outright that he didn't.

 

The idea that people have to quit or unsubscribe over this is, quite honestly, pretty stupid as well - you can enjoy every other aspect of a game whilst criticising a handful of elements. Some of you really need to grow thicker skin and stop acting like constructive debate  and criticism should never occur.

 

...and if you really can't restrain yourself from thinly veiled personal attacks/jabs, here's an idea: don't bloody post in threads related to something you can't remain civil about. Something that applies to both sides of the discussion.

[Coatleque]

So yeah...

 

"No matter how upset you get, no matter how irrational the initial reaction to getting your nose a little out of joint is, you are not allowed to lose sight of the fact that there is no possible way anything that happens in 'pretendy fun time games' can actually be important. It is not, nor will it ever be, a big deal."

[Alothia]

Guys, please keep this discussion civil, or we're going to have to lock the thread and put out another moratorium. We're all adults (I hope), so let's maintain a civil conversation about this topic. It's an important topic, one we're all pretty invested in as RPers...I'd like to continue being able to read discussion on it.

 

Thanks!

[Clover]

The only malicious thing going on within this thread is the unfortunate habit some individuals have in attacking and belittling pretty much anyone who isn't worshiping the ground on which Yoshi-P walks on.

 

Comments like this suggest that you, too, haven't understood a thing the other side is trying to say, or aren't aware of how all the negativity your side is throwing looks from a different point of view ^^;

 

Anyway, so the problem is that Yoshida said was that personal houses would be in a different map than FC houses, but right now they are together. I don't think that sharing a map with FCs is going to make personal houses any less awesome or different, neither is it going to make the neighbourhood any less beautiful. If prices are the problem, prices are going down and will be half of what they currently are in a month. I believe that buying a small house for 2million doesn't sound too bad for someone who has actually tried to save up. It just requires some effort, as does farming for equip.

 

As for the limited number of small houses, remember they're working on it.

 

What I mean with all this is... this is not about worshipping Yoshida; it's about seeing a huge drama blown out of proportion, all because of problems that are only half truths. What's more, some people are offended that some of us don't see a problem with the arrival of personal houses (if anything, I'm thankful, mind you). In the end, this whole drama is getting annoying for all sides.

[K'nahli]

Nobody is being malicious in their criticism of the housing fiasco. A developer said one thing and did another. This isn't anything new - it's been happening in pretty much every MMO out there be it WoW, Rift, GW2, SWTOR and so on.

 

The only malicious thing going on within this thread is the unfortunate habit some individuals have in attacking and belittling pretty much anyone who isn't worshiping the ground on which Yoshi-P walks on. He's only human and he made a mistake. Nobody is suggesting that he's a terrible person or that he should lose his job.

 

Accountability, however, is important. He's admitted his mistake and so...there's not much point in claiming that he put his point across well as he himself has stated outright that he didn't.

 

The idea that people have to quit or unsubscribe over this is, quite honestly, pretty stupid as well - you can enjoy every other aspect of a game whilst criticising a handful of elements. Some of you really need to grow thicker skin and stop acting like constructive debate  and criticism should never occur.

 

...and if you really can't restrain yourself from thinly veiled personal attacks/jabs, here's an idea: don't bloody post in threads related to something you can't remain civil about. Something that applies to both sides of the discussion.

 

Without the intention to offend or point fingers but... your posts are the only ones that have felt even mildly aggressive to me since the last outburst some pages back involving other people. No-one is really disagreeing with your upset as much as they're saying: "Okay, look... its not THAT big of a deal".

('you' meaning your side from this point on)

 

At the end of the day, this was going to happen one way or another. Yoshi simply could have saved himself some backfire if he thought to mention it but, well, he didn't. Everything you're looking for will be coming along at some point. Your real concerns should be the lack of space even with the implementation of new wards, not getting angry at Yoshi for something he is trying to find a way around.

 

No-one here is blindly defending Yoshi... what good would that do anyone? It's simply a matter of us saying that you should aim your anger and upset at the actual problem as opposed to finding the nearest person to point your finger at and blaming everything on him as though he were able to fix everything but, you know, simply chose not to.

 

He didn't lie, that's skewing the truth to make it sound worse than it really is. Having said that, he wasn't as open as people were expecting/hoping for him to be; if you want to believe that he did that consciously then fine, you're entitled to think like that, but no-one is in any position to accuse him of lying, just as I am in no position to testify to his innocence and say that there is no way that he knew what was going on and could never do such a thing. I just believe that he didn't because it would have been completely unnecessary. To me, its logical to assume that he didn't deliberately hide anything.

[Dravus]

Different people are invested in different aspects of the game. What doesn't concern you might affect somebody else and the reverse is true as well. At this point there isn't much debate going on at all - it's the same select few posters trying to convince the other side not to feel the way that they do which isn't something that is going to end well.

It's a divisive subject with solid points on both sides - but at this point we've already established how X, Y and X feel about the subject. What we should be focusing on isn't whether X, Y or Z are throwing a fit (which is unlikely given that most people seem to be assuming that this is something the opposing side is losing sleep over) but rather what solutions can be conjured up and put forward to FFXIV's developers over on the official site.

 

It may be that they don't ever read this thread, or anything posted on the official site for that matter. Either way something is better than nothing and if some people are happy to just overlook the entire matter, that's fine - but they don't really have the right to demand or pressure everybody else into brushing the issue under the rug if it's something they feel strongly about.

 

The short term solutions are better than nothing but they don't really address the core issue which is a major shortage of available houses. Once they start actively addressing the long term issues with player housing then I'll be very happy. If they don't? Well I'm not going to leave the game over it as I find it enjoyable enough to continue investing in for other reasons.

 

I think there's a communication issue here - I'm not upset. I'm not losing sleep over this. I'm just...well, British. I'm naturally blunt and direct - I enjoy a solid debate but I enjoy a civil debate. I haven't launched any personal attacks, though I have expressed frustration in regards to the tone and implications surrounding certain posts.

 

If people want further clarity in regards to my posting style they're welcome to approach me either within this thread or via a PM. I don't bite.

 

Guys, please keep this discussion civil, or we're going to have to lock the thread and put out another moratorium. We're all adults (I hope), so let's maintain a civil conversation about this topic. It's an important topic, one we're all pretty invested in as RPers...I'd like to continue being able to read discussion on it.

 

Thanks!

 

It would be much more efficient to just eliminate the perceived problematic posts instead of stifling discussion of the subject entirely. As someone who has done moderator work elsewhere (MMO-Champion to be precise) I'm no stranger to heated debate and...in all honesty I can't help but feel as though there's a bit of a knee jerk reaction over on this site. 

 

Ultimately it's your site and your rules (for the moderation team/admin team as a whole) but so far I can't really see anything that is truly worthy of an entire subject being locked down. If three students in a class of thirty are causing trouble then it's not fair for the tutor to toss everybody into an after school detention. Punishing everybody for the actions of a few is a very slippery slope.

[Warren Castille]

The real problem they're going to run into, I think, is only having 30 houses to a ward. They need to either open up apartments (seriously, SE, you did this just in XI a decade ago) or... some other thing. I don't know. I can't begin to presume I know how programming works.

 

What I AM tempted to do, though, is make a dummy FC rank 6 and just... buy a house. Let people who want to "join" an inactive FC come and get their personal room for 300k. I'd make the front room look like a lobby or something and just... Let people have at it.

 

Hmm.