Conjury and / or Thaumaturgy?

[just Vic]

(Edit: changed subect line to better reflect the nature of my question)

 

Been working around here and there and after advancing through the thaumaturge questline it gave me an idea for a possible plot: my character has been trying to learn  how to use healing spells but has lots of trouble (similar to how Sylphie and her mother use their own energies and thus can shorten their lifespan) , however while the conjurer needs to "borow" from nature I remember reading somewhere that a thaumaturge uses his/her own inner ennergies  to meld the aether iinto spells. With that being said, is it possible lorewise for a character in this situation to be torn between these two schools of magic?

 

 

Granted I don´t want to make some sort of all powerfull archmage, but rather to show the struggle of realizing the correct choice for a pacifist between:

 

Wants to learn how to heal but has lots of trouble when using healing spells, sometimes to the point of exhaustion.

 

VS

 

Does not want to learn how to hurt others but realizes that offensive magic is much easier and not only it doesn´t take a toll on his body, but can even become intoxicated with the power he can weild.

 

That way instead of a traditional good vs evil plot it becomes more about wanting to do something vs being able to do something. So... ideas? thoughts? suggestions?.......cookies?

[E'irawen]

I'm sorry this wont be the most informative answer but I've been doing something similar and nobody has really told me it's a bad thing to do.  My character is a more natural-born healer and hearer, but opted (because he's nerdy) to try and learn thaumaturgy simply because he likes to learn new junk.  Then this stuff with the void happened and.. well, ahem.  I don't think it's impossible, but I think it is important to make sure you read into both lorepaths and be aware of any consequences.

 

Like, using mine as an example again: I'm fairly sure by the end of this, he at the very least might end up with some greenswrath (Not 100% sure yet as the plot is not conclusive yet). But if he does, I know that's gonna flub up not only his gifts as a hearer, but being able to borrow from nature for his healing. 

 

At least, that's how I've come to understand it... I'd love to be corrected too if anyone knows better. ;

[Sounsyy]

So lorewise, we don't have any evidence of one mage being both a Conjurer and a Thaumaturge. (obviously besides the PC) Can it happen? IDK, probably, but it has yet to be explored in lore. As Fai said, I think it'd be smartest to understand the lore for both schools of magick and make the choice for yourself how deep you want to delve into it.

 

Conjury is the ability to manipulate the aether in Nature and, through meditation, bend that aether into a spell. It usually requires a wand or stave of un-worked or organic wood to channel the energies of the spell. Now, not all Conjurers are hearers, but many of them can hear the call of the Elementals in nature. These Hearers usually develop a strong bond with their surroundings.

 

Thaumaturgy is more the study of death to understand life, but the magical practice has evolved from the first Magi at the dawning of the 5th Astral Era 3000 years ago. Over time, it became a practice mostly apt for bringing about death, but it can also restore life just as Conjury does. However, the distinction made between Thaumaturgy and Conjury is that while Conjury draws their energies from Nature, Thaumaturges draw from within themselves. So when they healed, they used their own lifeforce to do so. When they harm, they harm themselves. Another key difference is that Thaumaturges require a medium to focus their inner energies as opposed to using meditation. This medium usually comes in the form of an aetherially enhanced gemstone upon a stave or wand, but is not exclusive to those things. The gemstone is what's important, not necessary what hosts the gemstone. We've also seen successful Thaumaturges use daggers and the like with the gemstone resting in the hilt or blade.

 

So aside from the physical differences there are also the religious affiliations to consider as well that are associated with the Hearers and the Order of Nald'thal. However, much like our adventurer PCs, you could likely gloss over the theology behind Conjury and Thaumaturgy as the 2.0 quests and RPers in general are wont to do.

[Melkire]

Know a few roleplayers who've gone with this character concept (have an alt myself that falls under that concept, as well). It's doable. If you want to adhere closely to the lore on each Art that we DO have, you'll have to work out a character history (Ossuary and Stillgade Fen work best for "where did they learn this" if you don't have a PC mentor).

 

But yes, there's no lore or established canonical instance of a mage who dabbles in both.

[Kellach Woods]

I think the problem is that mechanics-wise we're locked into Earth/Water/Air for CNJ and Fire/Ice/Thunder for THM (Ice and Air can be cross-classed, I know), when most of us would rather draw from all the elements when we're casting.

 

For example, if I were to steer Kell into mage area, his connection to the elements should allow him to cast all of these spells. However, the way the game's done, he can't both mechanically without doing a weapon swap mid-RP, which would look quite silly, and canonically be part of all the guilds necessary to pull that off.

 

So yeah.

[Aduu Avagnar]

feel free to drop me a line, Nako is a user of both schools of magic, (though more dominant in Thaumaturgy). I have never had any complaints about it.

[V'aleera]

 

Conjury is the ability to manipulate the aether in Nature and, through meditation, bend that aether into a spell. It usually requires a wand or stave of un-worked or organic wood to channel the energies of the spell.

 

Thaumaturges require a medium to focus their inner energies as opposed to using meditation. This medium usually comes in the form of an aetherially enhanced gemstone upon a stave or wand, but is not exclusive to those things.

This has been an area of some interest for me as well, as one of my favorite character archetypes is the long-lived wizard/sorceress with incredible mastery over magic (Magna Aegwynn, Flemeth, The Lady etc.) and I've lately been wondering whether such a character would be possible within the FFXIV setting (more as a thought exercise than a current desire to RP that kind of character with others).

 

Presuming such a character exists that is capable of wielding multiple forms of magic, I'd like to speak specifically to the subject of foci mentioned above. Is there anything in the lore that would specifically preclude the insertion of a thaumaturgic gem into an organic staff conducive to conjury? And on a slightly related note, does a master of arcanima absolutely need a book of spells or can the geometric patterns be invoked from memory?

[Sounsyy]

Is there anything in the lore that would specifically preclude the insertion of a thaumaturgic gem into an organic staff conducive to conjury? And on a slightly related note, does a master of arcanima absolutely need a book of spells or can the geometric patterns be invoked from memory?

 

It's an interesting thought, but I couldn't say for sure since there's no lore evidence of it ever happening before. That is to say, no Magi (that we know of) has yet tried to master both Conjury and Thaumaturgy, giving little need to establish a dual-medium stave. However, given that the lore only specifically states that these mediums are used in the casting of magic, I don't see why a gemstone could be embedded into an organic stave to produce a dual-foci? Similar to something like Gandalf's staff in Lord of the Rings.

 

On the subject of needing the foci to cast, the lore seems to bend towards needing them, but does not outright state they are required to perform even the most simple of spells. What the mediums allow for is a focus to channel and condense aether into a physical manifestation of magic. So for Conjurers, the living staff allows them to feel nature's touch within their grasp. For Thaumaturges, the gemstone creates a focal point to direct their aether into. For Arcanists, the aetherially augmented ink within the grimoires allows for easier conduction of energies from the caster through the tome.

 

I would say that it is within the realm of possibility that a master at one of these schools would be able to perform spells without such mediums, but from the way the magic seems to be described it might dampen his/her potential?

 

Anyways, here's the original text about the mediums:

 

 

“In the hands of a skilled practitioner, thaumaturgy can be a force of terrifying destruction. At the heart of this school of magic lies the ability to call forth and command the latent aether within oneself through deep introspection.

To then mold that aether into sorcery, the thaumaturge makes use of a scepter or staff, within which is housed a medium—a natural stone imbued with magical properties. Thus armed, the thaumaturge is capable of wreaking considerable havoc via ruinous spells and curses.”

 

“Conjury calls upon the elements of earth, wind, and water and concentrates them to a potency at which spells can be weaved. Through practiced meditation on the essences of creation, conjurers draw forth and absorb aether from their immediate surroundings. A wand or cane made from unworked wood is then utilized to focus the aether until it manifests as the desired spell. Versed also in magicks that restore and strengthen, conjurers are regarded as accomplished healers.”

 

“Adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within occult grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing him to produce myriad powerful spells.

Using the selfsame symbols to unlock the latent power contained within gemstones, arcanists are also able to summon forth the familiar known as Carbuncle to carry out their bidding.”

 

-Taken from the Lodestone.

 

 

 

 

EDIT: Thought I'd read somewhere about Arcanists and their grimoires lately so took a look through my notes. Sure enough, we have this explanation from the Lv.25 Alchemist Quest.

 

For an arcanist to weave his spells, he must conjure in his mind the image of distinct mystical diagrams known as arcane geometries. These geometries are inscribed upon the pages of a grimoire, such as the one you constructed at my request.

 

The most important aspect of any grimoire is the quality of the ink used to illustrate its pages. Geometries drawn with ink that is especially conductive to the flow of aether allow the arcanist to more effectively channel his magical strength.

[Kellach Woods]

Carpentry already has a quest requiring adding a stone to a cane (Level 45 - Jade Crook) - However, for that particular item, you need an untreated Jadeite. Perhaps polishing the stone or whatever goldsmiths do makes the stone unsuited for CNJ purposes.

 

The way I see it, if you're using a weapon of one, you can't use it to focus on magics of the other because of the training used in CNJ/THM requiring either an organic component (primarily wood, some stones can be added to it but only by skilled carpenters) or dead/unliving components (polished stones/horns/bones).

 

It's kind of interesting how the contrast exists even in the craftsmanship of the weapons.

[Naunet]

To get around the clumsiness of trying to carry about two staves, you could just have your character employ a small branch (wand) hung on a belt for conjury and a staff/scepter for thaumaturgy.

[V'aleera]

Alternatively...

 

[Chillsmack]

The whole game mechanic of job swapping is going to muddle and blur believability and logic, which is unfortunate since both are important parts of any setting or world's lore...

 

Namely it makes all the abilities look too easy (i.e. here's a staff and BOOM you now know magic and can throw fireballs! But don't worry, I gave you this bare of knuckle dusters and now you can also use martial arts and have the strength, coordination, and stamina to beat up a monster in a fist fight!) and this is why I personally veer away from the hybridization of classes in MMO RPs unless an aspect of the setting such as a specific class or profession itself - with its established lore - is intrinsically a blend of different attributes. Doendraga is not, and will never be, a big hulking melee fighter...who also knows a little magic on the side BUT ONLY if you give him a cane with a shiny stone on top of it lol

 

Looking at the lore of conjuration and thaumaturgy you can already see examples of where you have to jimmy rig the lore because the two don't blend together, and this is why I think, as Sounsy pointed out, you don't see either discipline of magic being used at the same time by a single person in game or ever referenced as a possibility: the catalysts that are required for example, differ on an existential level as well as the literal sources that their respective magicks feed from. These are possibly two of multiple variables that define why conjuration is like this and why thaumaturgy is like that...

 

Take their elements for example: water, earth, and air are more primal in nature. Fire, Ice, and Lightning, however, are less primal because they are the the product of reactions within other forms of matter; while you can find cold everywhere obviously, you cannot have ice without water the same way that fire cannot exist in a figurative vacuum (it needs fuel, or something to "burn on top of"), and lightning is a full on product of complex chemical reactions in the upper atmosphere and cannot exist without said conditions to enable it's existence. None of thaumaturgy's elements are wholly independent because they need other elements or conditions in order to exist. None of thaumaturgy's elements are "building blocks" of the natural world as a result like conjuration's elements, since water earth and air are not the results of other elements undergoing change. These are static and "more natural" in the way that there is no stimuli needed to allow water, earth, and air to exist. Being broad elemental forces, they simply are. Perhaps this is why conjurers can harness water, earth, and air (because it draws upon the "stable nature" of their environments), while thaumaturgy which taps into the self in order to reach into the void wields "dynamic" forces of fire, ice, and lightning (elements of change and flux/chaos). 

 

That's always been my way of rationalizing the difference between the two, at least. No MMO is going to into such great lengths in crafting their lore that you have to understand the philosophy of the metaphysical in order to understand how magic is portrayed...cuz you know, people don't play MMOs to read lol

 

But that's what I mean by my perspective of the two not working on a philosophical level, and based on what lore we have had access to, philosophy is a big part of the magick we see in this world. Maybe this is why you never see a character using both conjuration and thaumaturgy, and there is never even a reference of someone knowing both.

 

My advice: look to see if it's referenced in-character by NPCs or done by NPCs. If its not, then it probably isn't possible. If you have to look for loopholes then it's usually a sign that you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole (lore-breaking)

[Naunet]

My advice: look to see if it's referenced in-character by NPCs or done by NPCs. If its not, then it probably isn't possible. If you have to look for loopholes then it's usually a sign that you're trying to force a square peg into a round hole (lore-breaking)

 

Eeeeeeh not sure I agree with this statement. There's an awful lot that will never be explicitly stated or demonstrated by NPCs. That doesn't mean any of the things we don't see are suddenly "lore-breaking".

 

I can get behind not necessarily being able to use the same focus for conjury as thaumaturgy, but there doesn't seem to be a good reason against someone being able to learn both.

[Desu Nee]

Don't take my word seriously, it's just an opinion really, but I don't really see how they wouldn't work together. Hard, yes, but the Conjurer calls upon the Nature Aether for his spells and works, and technically he is merely the mid-term, and catalyst of the reaction, whereas Thaumaturgy brings the energy within, so he is the spender of the energy. Theoretically, it would be possible for someone to be able to cast from the two schools, since they are so different than they work, but obviously, not everyone can be a Conjurer, since they need to have a level of intimacy with nature and harmony, which clashes with the Thaumaturgy philosophy of destruction, which also needs you have quite high amounts of Aether within yourself.

 

Theoretically it is possible, but the individual must be a reinascence men in the minimum, so I guess only the Adventurer can really do that, and not common Adventurers. Arcanist seems to me by far the easiest Discipline of Magic to enter.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Fun fact: Conjurer used to have all the elements.

 

While a lot of the abilities have now been retconned through massive changes to pretty much everything, 1.0, patch 1.20 and 2.0-current have quite a few differences.

 

 

http://www.final-fantasy-14.org/abilities.php?name=&rank=&class=Conjurer&order_by=&submit=Filter

 

 

So on wondering about that, if Conjurer abilities are basically borrowed from the land/Elementals, one could conjure say, fire. However, it's still a fundamentally different way of casting than Thaumaturgy, as Sounsyy pointed out.

 

--

 

On topic, one doesn't have to be a healer as a CNJ. They do have a decent amount of offensive spells. It's a case where the game mechanics requiring them to be healers forces them into a narrowed role.

[just Vic]

I think that just like you said, weapon usage does play a big role that I had not thought of yet, although there are ways to work around that a bit (Aero can be set as an additional action so a Thaumaturge could use it while weilding a scepter for example).

 

Personally I´ve felt that all 3 schools of magic are more related to different philosophies and concepts of the self:

 

Conjurer: Meditation, communicate with nature, spiritual beings, soul

 

Thaumaturge: Understanding of life and death, religion (as in orthodox rites and such), inner potential, body

 

Arcanist: Intelligence, curiosity, a wish to understand the unknown, mind

 

 

I believe I will go aound the NPCs and see what else I can find, like I said my plot was more about the potential wiithin the person to use one while wanting to use other so maybe it will be interesting how Vic becomes frustrated when he wants to learn how to heal but all he can learn is to destroy.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

I think that just like you said, weapon usage does play a big role that I had not thought of yet, although there are ways to work around that a bit (Aero can be set as an additional action so a Thaumaturge could use it while weilding a scepter for example).

 

Personally I´ve felt that all 3 schools of magic are more related to different philosophies and concepts of the self:

 

Conjurer: Meditation, communicate with nature, spiritual beings, soul

 

Thaumaturge: Understanding of life and death, religion (as in orthodox rites and such), inner potential, body

 

Arcanist: Intelligence, curiosity, a wish to understand the unknown, mind

 

 

I believe I will go aound the NPCs and see what else I can find, like I said my plot was more about the potential wiithin the person to use one while wanting to use other so maybe it will be interesting how Vic becomes frustrated when he wants to learn how to heal but all he can learn is to destroy.

 

I think that's a good way to go about it. But remember, each of them has the ability to heal and destroy. Different strengths and weaknesses are what make each type of magic unique.

[Sounsyy]

On topic, one doesn't have to be a healer as a CNJ. They do have a decent amount of offensive spells. It's a case where the game mechanics requiring them to be healers forces them into a narrowed role.

 

To echo this, yes the roles in early 1.0 used to be reversed. CNJ was actually an extremely powerful DPS mage while THM made for the nearly invincible healer class. CNJ controlled all 6 elements and had ancient magick like Flare, Quake, Freeze, etc.

 

The change over though was a complete retcon admitted to by Fernehalwes so there's actually no lore substantiating why Conjurers can no longer use Fire, Thunder, and Ice... soooooooo if you wanted to utilize those elements as a CNJ, technically there's no lore saying you could not, as it was the norm for CNJs pre-Calamity.

[Briggs]

It could easily be explained that with the destruction and damage the Calamity caused, many conjurers devoted more of their focus into the restorative properties of their magics, and that's why the class plays a primarily supportive role.

[Lost River]

From my understanding, Louisoix Leveilleur the Archon from 1.0 and 2.0 was also an Archmage, so I think it is possible to learn all of the forms of Magic, just realistically, you master in one element and are decent at the others, with how old the man was, I suspect it took him years to develop that.

[Cocotsu]

Somewhere I thought I saw that Thaumaturgy was used for minor healing and understanding of life and death. Thats why the guild is located in the Ossuary of Nald'Thal.  Dont quote me on that though since I cant seem to find the source.