Gun Control: How deadly are they in Eorzea?

[Yhen Yizeh]

Elfs with guns. Taking over. But it won't be long.

[Zyrusticae]

You care enough to quote me' date=' bold something and then explain how you don't understand it. Despite your arguably-valid feelings on RPing someone blessed with supernatural prowess, the folks at the Grindstone tend to be more toned down than fucking [i']Cloud[/i] of all people.

 

Some of us like a semblance of realism in our combat RP, which we have repeatedly butted heads against on. Yet here we are...

Well, when you're dealing with people using firesands-powered, breech-loaded, yet fully automatic firearms coupled with magitek enhancements, I'm beginning to think the realism angle just isn't going to fly unless you throw all of this out entirely.

 

And I mean... you can do that. But mentioning that dodging bullets isn't "believable" when the weapons themselves aren't even remotely within the realm of believability to begin with just strikes me as odd.

[Warren Castille]

You care enough to quote me' date=' bold something and then explain how you don't understand it. Despite your arguably-valid feelings on RPing someone blessed with supernatural prowess, the folks at the Grindstone tend to be more toned down than fucking [i']Cloud[/i] of all people.

 

Some of us like a semblance of realism in our combat RP, which we have repeatedly butted heads against on. Yet here we are...

Well, when you're dealing with people using firesands-powered, breech-loaded, yet fully automatic firearms coupled with magitek enhancements, I'm beginning to think the realism angle just isn't going to fly unless you throw all of this out entirely.

 

And I mean... you can do that. But mentioning that dodging bullets isn't "believable" when the weapons themselves aren't even remotely within the realm of believability to begin with just strikes me as odd.

 

I don't know why I'm discussing this with someone who has never (and likely won't ever) attend the event in question, but the weapons are plenty believable in the setting. You're equating technological level with biological level, and these are not mutually exclusive to one another. Firesand exists. The cutscene use of firearms (and dungeon use of them, citing Sastasha HM and Brayflox HM's gobtank) show they fire quickly. This has NO EFFECT on people suddenly being able to perceive, anticipate and deflect/avoid bullets.

 

That does provide a simple errata to solve this, though. The Grindstone already bars aetherially-and-chemically-enhanced weapons and armor, though that's specifically for poisons, fire/cold, etcetera. It's not unreasonable to just tack "or technologically" enhanced weaponry.

 

If someone showed up sporting a custom longbow that knocked twelve shots per second and drew the string with the power of a machine, we'd bar it in a heartbeat. Guns aren't much different.

 

AGAIN. NOT MY CALL. TAKING POLLS.

[Telluride]

Always take a gun to a knife fight...

 

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

 

 

 

 

NSFW Warning!

 

[video=youtube]

 

 

 

[Gegenji]

Always take a gun to a knife fight...

 

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

 

 

 

 

NSFW Warning!

 

[video=youtube]

 

 

 

 

I'd prefer to just shell the site where the fight's going to take place with mortars. Avoid the potential for being hurt completely.

[Kinono]

I'm all for characters being above the bar in strength, but I can't say I've seen anything to suggest that dodging bullets would be something any mortal character could do. Quite the opposite: NPCs get hit by ALL the projectiles. The one time a bullet was "dodged" was due to a hasty shot that simply missed its mark. Final Fantasy this game may be but most people here don't like the "anime fight simulator" style that many are so fond of.

[Telluride]

Always take a gun to a knife fight...

 

Or is that a knife, to a gun fight?

 

 

 

 

NSFW Warning!

 

[video=youtube]

 

 

 

 

I'd prefer to just shell the site where the fight's going to take place with mortars. Avoid the potential for being hurt completely.

 

 

It's the only way to be sure.

[Dat Oni]

My observations:

 

I couldn't help but notice the double barrel revolvers that the Yellowjackets and, of course, Merlwyb use, happen to be closest to the "Flintlock" variety.

 

[align=center]

A flintlock firing mechanism. The similarities to the ones used in game are too great to be coincidence.

[/align]

 

 As it turns out, double-barrel, or Twelve help you, triple-barrel Flintlock is not always a good idea. In fact, it carries a modicum of risk that makes me question why they use the damn things in the first place.

 

[align=center]

A Triple Barrel Flintlock pistol.

[/align]

 

Because of the time needed to reload (even experts needed 15 seconds to reload a smooth-bore, muzzle-loading musket), flintlocks were sometimes produced with two, three, four or more barrels for multiple shots. These designs tended to be costly to make and were often unreliable and dangerous. While weapons like double barreled shotguns were reasonably safe, weapons like the pepperbox revolver would sometimes fire all barrels simultaneously, or would sometimes just explode in the user's hand. It was often less expensive, safer, and more reliable to carry several single-shot weapons instead.

 

So, if one were to ask me how deadly these weapons are, if this game used a a lot more realism (in 1.0, Merlwyb's shots ricocheted off of a Magitek vanguard as if they were nothing, so there is some realism being applied; flintlock does not a good anti-armor weapon make), I would wager they are more deadly to the user than the target, as the risk of taking your own hand off because the damn thing DETONATED in your hand is too much of an issue to make them safe...

 

But if they're not of the "Pepperbox" variety, I can imagine that the pistols toted by Yellowjackets and Admiral alike are simply advanced forms of Flintlock pistols, made of tougher and more reliable mechanisms and materials. That I could easily believe.

[Zyrusticae]

I don't know why I'm discussing this with someone who has never (and likely won't ever) attend the event in question[...]

Well I didn't know that, I don't really pay any attention to it either (mainly because I don't really have interest in playing around with dice rolls, not that you asked). Just felt like you were invested in it from your posts for whatever reason.

 

[...]but the weapons are plenty believable in the setting. You're equating technological level with biological level' date=' and these are not mutually exclusive to one another. Firesand exists. The cutscene use of firearms (and dungeon use of them, citing Sastasha HM and Brayflox HM's gobtank) show they fire quickly. This has NO EFFECT on people suddenly being able to perceive, anticipate and deflect/avoid bullets.[/quote']But the thing is, you're still handwaving the ammunition part of the equation. You're just accepting it because it's been given. If you can handwave 'they have unlimited ammo because reasons' you can equally handwave 'people can dodge (and punch!) bullets' with just as much actual backing in lore.

 

I'm just trying to find some consistency here. Either you accept all of it as given, or you throw out everything that doesn't work with what you're trying to do. But selectively picking one thing because it makes sense to you and throwing out the rest because you disagree with it rubs me the wrong way.

 

That does provide a simple errata to solve this, though. The Grindstone already bars aetherially-and-chemically-enhanced weapons and armor, though that's specifically for poisons, fire/cold, etcetera. It's not unreasonable to just tack "or technologically" enhanced weaponry.

 

If someone showed up sporting a custom longbow that knocked twelve shots per second and drew the string with the power of a machine, we'd bar it in a heartbeat. Guns aren't much different.

 

AGAIN. NOT MY CALL. TAKING POLLS.

Well yeah, that makes sense. Personally, I would make a serious argument that the event should be exclusive to melee combatants, but that's not my call to make, either.

[Warren Castille]

rebuttal

 

I'm not meaning to handwave the entire thing away, so I apologize if that's how it sounded. The firing mechanism is present in the game and demonstrably not single-shot-reload. We don't know how many times it can do that, though. I'm not referring specifically to Garlean gunblade tech, which may or may not be used in the MCH class: I'm referring to the muskets and pistols we see elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that the weapons aren't functionally-infinite ammunition, it just seems that way because game mechanics. The gobtank doesn't fire repeatedly, it looks like a stream of machine gun fire that is on a long enough cooldown to warrant the operator restocking supply somehow. Conversely, Squidface in Sastasha will fire that pistol every second until everyone is dead, even if that means his flintlock just took 24 shots before stopping.

 

At the end of the day, though, if they tell us that MCH pistols use non-chambered, infinite-firing rounds using an aetherial powersource to create magic bullets, well... That still doesn't explain how people would suddenly be able to dodge or anticipate bullets. We're still talking technological explanation versus implied physical limits; Yda looking awesome in a cutscene is not the expected average competency of your random roleplayer. We would have demolished Garlemald by now if that was the case.

 

Finally, I agree with you about ranged weaponry feeling... off. However, people with bows were there before I was and it isn't my show to change, so while I'm not crazy about arrow shots or throwing knives (truly the most boring of implements!) I won't ever tell anyone not to use them.

[Melkire]

...or throwing knives (truly the most boring of implements!)...

"Look, it was in my hand, and he wouldn't close with me, and I needed to close with him, but he has the longer reach and he's heavier, so I thought, why not pink him as a distraction, so I threw my knife!"

 

As for actual throwing knives... yeah. Boring, but practical.

 

 

 

As a side-note, thanks for being civil, folks, and not letting things get too heated. ^^

[111]

My last character was shot by a gun and died, so I treat them as pretty scary.

 

That's my gun story thank you for listening.

[LiveVoltage]

Let's remember guy's, only pirates play with gun's.  (IE: Failstrom, lol.)

[Aeylis Bloodbinder]

 

But if they're not of the "Pepperbox" variety, I can imagine that the pistols toted by Yellowjackets and Admiral alike are simply advanced forms of Flintlock pistols, made of tougher and more reliable mechanisms and materials. That I could easily believe.

 

 

 

^ This.

 

As I was doing some research on guns, I mostly looked up what pirates used to use (well not just pirates, but any long-ranged user of that time really), and they were more of the pistol types or rifles.  And as I was reading, just like Edgar said, I picked up that they had a habit of being quite dangerous to the user.  they could either explode in the hand, or simply get locked up if not loaded correctly...thats why some used to carry multiple on hand so they could sustain a bit longer without reloading (Blackbeard was said to carry six single barrel pistols!) but it was still a pain.

 

 

Now, I RP Aeylis being a gun-wielder, but I don't flaunt it around strangers due to the nature of people being wary about technicalities, but within my own RP where we discuss what things are good and not good, she has used her weapons before (mostly on alt NPC's, never to a real player as of this moment).  

 

Although, amongst people I knew OOCly, she has drawn her weapon out in warning, or threat, but I would never RP her shooting at someone unless I discussed this beforehand with them.  I've actually gotten a lot of reaction ICly that people get nervous around the gun because they haven't encountered one (which is almost like a /flex for Aeylis because the intimidation is what she goes for).

 

To make it fair within RP, the way I spin it is, she uses it mostly to disable a person or keep them from running.  If people aren't okay with the use of pistols (for whatever reason) then I'm fine with it, she'd much rather get the bloodlust enjoyment of killing someone with her axe.  I have RP'ed that she either misses due to them moving (In that type of combat RP, I always emote a warning post saying something along the lines of "cocking the gun fully and aiming for this and that" so they can respond accordingly, either moving out before she actually pulls the trigger, or running at her and taking the hit) or the barrel misfiring.  Hell, I find a way to miss for one reason or the other if she's not suppose to hit the target, even though she is suppose to be an expert shot.  Buuuuuuuuuuut she doesn't shoot to kill anymore because if she were in that mindset, she would NEVER miss, and I don't want to deal with that backlash.

 

So really, it's all up to the people you RP with, I think.  Most people I know are fine with Aeylis being a gun-wielder (and not surprised by it since she was raised by ex-pirates) but I don't really bring it out often to keep the peace.  

 

 

 

And to keep within the question of the OP,  the lethal level does not equate to the effectiveness of a gun.  On a normal, everyday Eorzean with no armor, no aether ability, etc  guns are still extremely lethal.  Are they effective on the super beings of Eorzea that run around? probably not.  Could I sneak in the shadows and blast a bullet into an unsuspecting, leather or cloth wearing adventurer who is engrossed in eating their lunch? Most likely.

[Zyrusticae]

rebuttal

I'm not meaning to handwave the entire thing away, so I apologize if that's how it sounded. The firing mechanism is present in the game and demonstrably not single-shot-reload. We don't know how many times it can do that, though. I'm not referring specifically to Garlean gunblade tech, which may or may not be used in the MCH class: I'm referring to the muskets and pistols we see elsewhere. I'm of the opinion that the weapons aren't functionally-infinite ammunition, it just seems that way because game mechanics. The gobtank doesn't fire repeatedly, it looks like a stream of machine gun fire that is on a long enough cooldown to warrant the operator restocking supply somehow. Conversely, Squidface in Sastasha will fire that pistol every second until everyone is dead, even if that means his flintlock just took 24 shots before stopping.

 

At the end of the day, though, if they tell us that MCH pistols use non-chambered, infinite-firing rounds using an aetherial powersource to create magic bullets, well... That still doesn't explain how people would suddenly be able to dodge or anticipate bullets. We're still talking technological explanation versus implied physical limits; Yda looking awesome in a cutscene is not the expected average competency of your random roleplayer. We would have demolished Garlemald by now if that was the case.

 

Finally, I agree with you about ranged weaponry feeling... off. However, people with bows were there before I was and it isn't my show to change, so while I'm not crazy about arrow shots or throwing knives (truly the most boring of implements!) I won't ever tell anyone not to use them.

 

Alright, that makes sense. To be clear, I recognize there is, of course, at least some level of story and gameplay separation and the rule of cool is frequently in effect for anything to do with guns (as even movies will fudge ammunition counts just for the sake of keeping the action flowing).

 

I should clarify where I'm coming from re: fighters dodging bullets:

 

I come from a background playing D&D where debates over exponential wizard power and linear fighter power were a constant. Some of the justification for the sheer disparity between the two classes at higher levels was along the same lines: "it's not realistic for a fighter to keep up with magi!" and other such things. The problem with this is that the fighter ends up becoming largely irrelevant once high enough levels are reached. Why even bring the fighter along once the mage can just put up a barrier, ignore everything heading their way, and blow up the opposition in a single round?

 

In many ways, FFXIV faces the same problem. BLMs are absurdly powerful. Hell, even garden-variety thaumaturges (remember, swiftcast comes at level 26) could wipe the floor with people who would be astonishingly badass IRL. You're NOT getting up after taking a blast of red-hot fire to the face, sorry. That's not even getting into some of the ridiculously oversized and overpowered things they face on a regular basis.

 

So how do you solve this problem? Well, you have to give the fighters an out of some kind. Either they're absurdly tough, have some kind of magic enhancement, or you give them straight-up superpowers to keep up with the equally supernatural wizards and sorcerers and stuff. You can't keep them on a 'realistic' baseline because the game world itself is not playing on a realistic baseline. Would you, given you had training and the best equipment money could buy, be willing to face down something like a morbol or a giant boar with your extraordinary-but-still-reasonable human prowess?

 

Sure, a lot of roleplayers AREN'T going to RP as high-level characters. They may be using the 1.0 intro as a reference for everyone's baseline abilities. And that's fine. But some of us RP higher-level characters, and straight-up stating that "that can't be done!" is extremely limiting in a dangerous way (literally, because it would mean our characters are so vulnerable as to be offed by a single stray bullet). And I can't accept that. I won't accept that. Whether Yda is supposed to be extraordinary or not, whether or not everyone in the 2.0 intro is supposed to be on a different level from the rest of the planet(???), it just doesn't feel right to me that realism is treated with so much reverence given just how much of the game largely ignores it.

 

I realize this is slightly off-topic, and I realize we're kind of retreading old ground here, but we have so many problems if we decide to treat "guns are lethal and cannot be dodged" as a hard and fast rule in Eorzea. If anything, as others stated, guns should be largely on the same level as magic in the universe, not something to be pushed entirely out of the picture because they're so overpowering. And indeed, yes, simply ruling that 'armor negates it' is equally boring and I'd rather we not go down that route as well. Even if dodging bullets is something limited to the most extraordinary, it should be an option given how the rest of the game world operates, especially since, quite frankly, it is the least boring option available. I mean it just looks so cool! Surely that gives it at least a few style points, eh? Ehhh?

 

And, you know, once 3.0 rolls around I don't want everyone to be treating T'rahnu as some kind of untouchable because she's walking around openly carrying a firearm. If someone wants to pick a fight with her I'm not going to say they can't do it because she shoots them and they die, you know?

 

 

Btw, when I said I 'don't care' I meant I don't care about how things work in the Grindstone, not that I don't care about the subject at hand. Obviously, I care a great deal about it to write up this much.

 

[Sophia_Grave]

Personally, I always make an excuse not to shoot, like Aeylis. My typical go to is the noise from the shot attracting unwanted attention, or that her firearms peg her as a Garlean. They seem to have access to revolvers and automatic weapons, if their gunblades are any indication.

 

I'm curious though, for those of you folks who fight with armor: how would you handle being shot at? Is that something you could block with a shield? Does you armor save you, or do the bullets pierce through?

 

ARR's opening cinematic has the Warrior being peppered with shots and immediately needing healing, but aside from losing his helmet, he and his armor seems to stay in one piece. I'm not saying that is law, but is that something anyone else considers?

[111]

This is a game where people can kill a giant robot by punching it to death, I'm not terribly worried about bullet dodging ruining my immersion.

 

Like anything else, they're as dangerous as the person you're shooting them at wants them to be.

[Zyrusticae]

I'm curious though, for those of you folks who fight with armor: how would you handle being shot at? Is that something you could block with a shield? Does you armor save you, or do the bullets pierce through?

 

ARR's opening cinematic has the Warrior being peppered with shots and immediately needing healing, but aside from losing his helmet, he and his armor seems to stay in one piece. I'm not saying that is law, but is that something anyone else considers?

Well, I would personally treat it like kevlar: it stops the bullet from going through but you're still going to feel the blunt force of the bullet itself on some level. Really good armor would distribute the force so evenly that it's like getting hit with a small, thrown sandbag instead of a tiny 500m/s metal rock. Emphasis on "small"; unlike what the movies would tell you, a bullet cannot send you flying on its own, though they can certainly rock you.

 

This is especially relevant for Ironworks armor; as far as I can tell, they are not made out of the simple materials other armors in the game are made out of. In fact, I would hazard a guess that they are made out of a synthetic fiber weave in the style of real-world composite armors, just looking at how they are textured. Not that that many people are wearing those ICly, I just thought it was something interesting to point out.

[Gegenji]

I'm curious though, for those of you folks who fight with armor: how would you handle being shot at? Is that something you could block with a shield? Does you armor save you, or do the bullets pierce through?

 

Chachan is a smith as well as a paladin-in-training, so he crafts his own armor. While he has more "open" patches with leather and chain to allow for more freedom of movement, the vital parts are currently made out of cobalt (to be improved to Darksteel and so on as he becomes more familiar with Eorzean metals). We're talking cobalt plate here, with the chain also being cobalt rings - both which should be enough to stop a bullet according to ARM 50.

 

As such, you have a small, mobile, armored target that you're trying to hit. So I could pretty easily imagine a shot being deflected off shield or armor. The only blatantly unarmored part of his body is his face (standard kabuto!), and even that will have more protection once he upgrades to his next "tier" of armor (white kabuto!).

 

So, as droll as it might sound, Chachan would most likely just keep moving and trust in the armor he forged himself to either soak or deflect the gun fire. At least until he can get close enough to disarm the guy.

[Aeylis Bloodbinder]

This is a game where people can kill a giant robot by punching it to death, 

 

FFXIV: the real UFC.

[Telluride]

This is a game where people can kill a giant robot by punching it to death, 

 

FFXIV: the real UFC.

 

This is also a game where a 30-foot tall demigod of rock - the geological kind, not the musical kind - can punch a Lalafell Paladin hard enough to cause tremors in the surrounding ground... and have it only hurt a little bit.

 

For that matter, we Eorzeans aren't smart enough to figure out how to fight the primals outside of their own tiny little defensive havens. I mean, HOW are these primals destroying everything when they do not come out of their lairs?

[Gegenji]

This is also a game where a 30-foot tall demigod of rock - the geological kind, not the musical kind - can punch a Lalafell Paladin hard enough to cause tremors in the surrounding ground... and have it only hurt a little bit.

 

Counterpoint.

 

5Ssnaiquvns

 

Also, technically Leviathan was you setting an arena where you COULD find him without being straight up drowned. The rest of them? Um... I guess the best time to jump them is when they're watching their soaps? Ifrit's a big fan of the Golden Girls.

[Chris Ganale]

My character was shot by a Garlean while wearing magically-enhanced armor. This particular shot was notable amongst the countless others he had to deal with throughout the preceding encounter because this shot in question hit him not on a plate but on the chain armor in the gap between where the cuirass stops and the sabatons start. He probably would've bled out had there not been approximately twenty thousand healers on hand.

[Sounsyy]

I'm curious though, for those of you folks who fight with armor: how would you handle being shot at? Is that something you could block with a shield? Does you armor save you, or do the bullets pierce through?

 

In my own headcanon, I think that since the Ala Mhigans have been engaging in skirmishes with the Garleans for the past 20 years trying to take their home back, that they would've developed a thicker plate or shield to attempt to deflect Garlean bullets. So when I wrote the backstory bit on Sounsyy fighting at Carteneau, her shield was able to deflect some stray bullets, while others less fortunate fell to the Garlean barrage.

 

If another RPer shot at me with a rifle, Garlean or Lominsan, I think I'd most likely eat the bullet. Lemme be honest, Sounsyy's armor, which is mostly leather with a simple but thick breastplate, is not gonna stop a bullet, unless it hit her breastplate at a really soft angle and ricocheted off? If Sounsyy had her shield up and she was ducked behind it, the bullet would either glance off - damaging the shield - or pierce right through. Even if her shield did successfully stop a bullet, that's some insane blunt force traveling through her shield and into her arm...

 

That's how I'd play it anyways, but to each their own. My character isn't badass enough to dodge a bullet. Or even catch a bullet. Survive a bullet - sure! Unless, you know, mortal wound.

[Gegenji]

That's how I'd play it anyways, but to each their own. My character isn't badass enough to dodge a bullet. Or even catch a bullet. Survive a bullet - sure! Unless, you know, mortal wound.

 

Sounsyy would just go into the lore details on how the gun being fired isn't being properly utilized according to the gun-play style mentioned in passing on a minion's flavor text, and then the bullet would just cease to exist.