Female to Male Ratio

[sforze]

How about no one has a responsibility to accurately portray anything, and if you don't like it you can go RP with someone else.

 

I don't give a damn about the normative heterocrapfart butt poop.

 

I just play the char I want to play.

 

I really don't like the tone in this thread that unless you are a thing, or have a doctorate in it, you can't RP that thing.

 

You're not referring to the tone, you're very poorly paraphrasing the points being made. Nobody has said "if you aren't a woman, don't RP as one", or, "If you don't have a PhD from a women's college in the studies of the alternative sexualities of tubers, don't RP as a demiromantic Jerusalem Artichoke". You're being extremely uncharitable to what's actually being said and it's not constructive to discussion.

 

What are you saying then?

 

tl;dr - That if you're trying to write a convincing character and not simply gun it straight for wish fulfillment, you have to think about more than just the sitcom version of the gender/race you're trying to portray.

[Kuzhuk]

By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.

 

And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."

 

So, how do you distinguish who has thought it out and who has not?

It's nearly impossible to tell from IC dialogue, sometimes possible to tell from emotes, and almost always possible to tell from an OOC discussion.

 

For example, if someone were to emote the following: "Tina tries not to hit Jacob, but is a woman and therefore irrational and punches him anyway" it would be pretty obviously sexist. I have seen stuff that is that bad on occasion. And sometimes when people talk about their characters OOC it becomes fairly obvious that they have ill intent...

[Caspar]

 

All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.

 

It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.

^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.

 

I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.

[Dravus]

I think it's fair to criticise someone for pulling off a sensitive issue poorly. Some stuff arguably doesn't belong in regular role-play to begin with and whilst it's 'just' role-play to many that isn't really an excuse for everything to be a free for all with zero consequences.

 

Heck, I have a pretty high threshold for a lot of things based on what I've experienced in my life. I'm not the sort of guy who gets 'triggered' by anything and everything but looking back on some of the things I've stumbled across during my role-playing career across numerous MMO's?

 

Some role-players genuinely unnerve me, including some of the role-players in this community. It's nothing new for some role-players to embrace controversial issues and exploit them as sexual wish fulfillment/gratification.

[Gone.]

I'm not going to disagree with the rest of your post because I consider it valid in most ways, however:

 

Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity.

 

No. Just no. While some men are clearly oblivious to systematic sexism, they are entirely capable of understanding female perspective via education and human empathy. This is the same toxic thinking that TERFs use to shut out the trans community and frankly I'm appalled to see it here.

[Kuzhuk]

Here's another good example. The creator of Bayonetta had this to say about his favorite scene from the game:

 

\Well, if I had to pick one, I would say it is the scene where Joy first appears in the game, with Bayonetta and her impostor getting into a pose battle. That was my way of expressing the feminine notion that, to one woman, all other women are enemies. Even women walking by each other will check out what the other is wearing, and might smolder a bit with antagonism. Women are scary.

Game creation isn't quite the same as roleplaying, but people with shitty attitudes towards women often out themselves similarly when talking about their RP.

[sforze]

 

All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.

 

It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.

^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.

 

I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.

 

I think it really is a kind of 'go with your gut' thing that varies from player to player. There are certain behaviors that I pick up on in other players that sometimes just gives me a really bad feeling, or their IC shittiness is pretty transparent in some way that sets off the alarm bells. It's difficult to explain to other people, but I usually just move with what my instinct tells me and stay away from people who set it off. There really isn't a 'one size fits all' approach for it, you just kinda go with what feels right to you and what makes your own experience better. :>

 

(I wasn't referring to you explicitly earlier, btw, to be clear)

[Verad]

Here's another good example. The creator of Bayonetta had this to say about his favorite scene from the game:

 

\Well, if I had to pick one, I would say it is the scene where Joy first appears in the game, with Bayonetta and her impostor getting into a pose battle. That was my way of expressing the feminine notion that, to one woman, all other women are enemies. Even women walking by each other will check out what the other is wearing, and might smolder a bit with antagonism. Women are scary.

Game creation isn't quite the same as roleplaying, but people with shitty attitudes towards women often out themselves similarly when talking about their RP.

 

Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?

[Kuzhuk]

 

Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity.

 

No. Just no. While some men are clearly oblivious to systematic sexism, they are entirely capable of understanding female perspective via education and human empathy. This is the same toxic thinking that TERFs use to shut out the trans community and frankly I'm appalled to see it here.

I agree with the bolded statement and do not see it as conflicting what you quoted that I said.

[Domri Blackblade]

By slapdash I meant not thought out. If you make a character that's intentionally upsetting that's a different thing altogether. I fully support making characters that behave in crappy ways. I guess the kind of RPers I want to be involved with and the kind of RPers I don't can be summed up like this: is the regressive attitude coming from an OOC place or an IC place? If it's the former, I probably don't want to play with you.

 

And that's okay; I don't expect the world to be shaped according to my wants and desires. Thus my original cavaet of "whether or not this is a problem is up to your personal priorities."

 

So, how do you distinguish who has thought it out and who has not?

It's nearly impossible to tell from IC dialogue, sometimes possible to tell from emotes, and almost always possible to tell from an OOC discussion.

 

For example, if someone were to emote the following: "Tina tries not to hit Jacob, but is a woman and therefore irrational and punches him anyway" it would be pretty obviously sexist.

 

How often does something that blatant go on during your IC interactions?

 

In my time RPing on MMOs, I've found both sexes equally ridiculous at portraying women and men all together because I don't think it's purely a wish fulfillment thing, personally. I think it mostly comes from a range of things including RPing what they think will be popular and appealing in a romantic sense due to how heavily a lot of people weigh romantic interaction, all the way down to they watched their favorite cartoon/tv show/game/book character interact in a way that resonated with them and they emulate it in a sort of personally touched way.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Being a woman or man doesn't usually make any difference in levels of how believable RP is from being a female or male character respectively. At least to me. I think wish fulfillment might be a thing, but certainly not the only thing or even the biggest one.

[Kuzhuk]

Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?

I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.

[Caspar]

 

All well and good, but it's very easy to mask OOC regression with feigned OOC progressiveness. The internet has provided a convenient playbook in this regard. And that presumes you value OOC communication, and aren't one of the types to demand full immersion and speak to the other partner OOC as little as possible.

 

It's a concern that's based heavily on intentionality, and intention can be a difficult thing to prove.

^_^' As someone who tends to judge morality based on intent, that problem is a constant sticking point for me. More oft than not I just avoid making a judgment, since I'm ill-fit to do so.

 

I would prefer to not assume anything of the other player for the most part, but occasionally OOC banter can be telling. In such cases I think I've got a pretty good reason to suspect them of blending, but rarely do I act on it.

 

I think it really is a kind of 'go with your gut' thing that varies from player to player. There are certain behaviors that I pick up on in other players that sometimes just gives me a really bad feeling, or their IC shittiness is pretty transparent in some way that sets off the alarm bells. It's difficult to explain to other people, but I usually just move with what my instinct tells me and stay away from people who set it off. There really isn't a 'one size fits all' approach for it, you just kinda go with what feels right to you and what makes your own experience better. :>

 

(I wasn't referring to you explicitly earlier, btw, to be clear)

No problem. I wanted to be a bit more clear and it ended up being a useful post anyway. I appreciate your input regardless.

 

I think in general this is the only approach that can work. If you are concerned about rp with people who might bother you, the risk of avoiding rp unintentionally with people who might be all right in the end is an unavoidable but worthwhile sacrifice, I think. It'd be nice if everyone could play in a way that makes everyone generally satisfied with the result, but this is the internet.

[Verad]

Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?

I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.

 

What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?

[Kuzhuk]

Does that make sense?

 

Being a woman or man doesn't usually make any difference in levels of how believable RP is from being a female or male character respectively. At least to me. I think wish fulfillment might be a thing, but certainly not the only thing or even the biggest one.

Yeah, it makes sense and you're definitely adding something to the discussion. Also, wish fulfillment doesn't JUST exist when you're RPing across genders. You can make a character that's about wish fulfillment that is your own gender.

 

I'm not saying any of these things have to be problems, just that they CAN make things tricky and we should be aware of them.

[Kuzhuk]

Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?

I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.

 

What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?

You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just making the assertion that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the socially-constructed experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.

[Verad]

Man, it's like I never left Tumblr. I still await the day a MMORPG let me fulfill my dreams to be a trans-faekin Apache Helicopter.

 

You may have left Tumblr, but Tumblr has never left you. 

 

It has always been beside you, through all your triumphs, your tragedies, your highs and your lows, waiting for the moment you would turn and notice it again.

 

And in that moment it would say, "Reblog."

[Domri Blackblade]

You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just getting to the fact that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.

 

I'm on the other side of the fence though. I'm a woman who almost exclusively RPs straight men, but I hardly know what it's like to be a man IRL. However, I don't think being the gender and experiencing what they have in the roles of society would really make either side better at writing and RPing their characters. Quite often, I've had people express surprise that I am a woman after rping with one of my characters because I'd like to think I RP a pretty convincing man.

 

Am I at an inherent disadvantage in your eyes because of my sex?

[Desu Nee]

Patriarchal culture does tend to reward women who distinguish themselves by attacking others. Crab-in-a-barrel is a known problem in sexist societies. Is the problem that the quote makes it appear to be an essentialist statement?

I'm sure it can be read differently (if you're more charitable and less literal about the statement) but yes, it does seem to be an essentialist statement. There are a lot of essentialist statements in that little paragraph.

 

What distinguishes that statement from men "fundamentally" being unable to do a thing in such a way that makes that statement problematic because of its essentialism, but the other correct?

You have a point here. Given that gender identity is so fluid and weird, a word like "fundamental" probably shouldn't be used. I was just making the assertion that someone who identifies and presents themself to the world as a man lacks first-hand access to the socially-constructed experience of being a woman, and that's a pretty big barrier to presenting that experience with a high degree of accuracy through RPing unless you're careful and meticulous about how you do it.

Frankly, your argument applies to any specie but human. How I, a human, can rp something like an Elezen without first hand knowledge of it's culture, experience, society, and societal pressures, as well as the natural tendencies and relationships with other species?

A character is, before gender or sex, a person. A person with dreams, hope and personality and that's what fundamentally makes a character. A RP is also a form of escapism, and maybe someone feels good playing a girl, maybe he identifies as a female more, and no one should have the moral ground to say he lacks the "experience".

 

Heck, by that argument no one here can play any specie in Eorzea, we lack the "first hand experience"

 

 

TL;DR It's a character. It's a rp. Matters of gender and sex of the player shouldn't even be considered, only his quality and experience as a RPer.

[Zyrusticae]

Frankly, your argument applies to any specie but human. How I, a human, can rp something like an Elezen without first hand knowledge of it's culture, experience, society, and societal pressures, as well as the natural tendencies and relationships with other species?

A character is, before gender or sex, a person. A person with dreams, hope and personality and that's what fundamentally makes a character. A RP is also a form of escapism, and maybe someone feels good playing a girl, maybe he identifies as a female more, and no one should have the moral ground to say he lacks the "experience".

 

Heck, by that argument no one here can play any specie in Eorzea, we lack the "first hand experience"

 

 

TL;DR It's a character. It's a rp. Matters of gender and sex of the player shouldn't even be considered, only his quality and experience as a RPer.

 

I believe the point is more that such players are at an inherent disadvantage playing such characters, and it tends to show (quite a bit) in their RP.

 

However, you are right to point out that this applies to all aspects of roleplaying, not just gender. That being said, the comment that triggered this was someone saying they could not play someone of the opposite sex, hence this whole tangent.

[Dravus]

I, for one, firmly believe that you don't need first hand experience in order to role-play a concept convincingly. You do, however, need to do research. That's the important part, especially if you're dealing with something controversial or sensitive.

 

Even if you're not, it just adds much more depth to role-play by taking the time to invest in expanding your own knowledge along the way. If someone role-plays a sailor they don't have to have first hand experience but I'd roll my eyes if they didn't know what port and starboard meant.

[Dravus]

Well, I'm done here, this is really disrespectful to the discourse.

 

Don't let it discourage you. It's always great to have a debate with a bit more depth to it than 'wat is ur chars favrit colur'. Just make use of tunnel vision and respond to the replies that appeal to you and ignore those that don't.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

Off topic but still a valid point to the thread: Is the RPC truly the proper place for such a discussion?

 

Personally, I do not think it is.

 

If I understand the original intent of the thread, it was to discuss why there are seemingly more female characters in RP than male characters. My thought on it? People RP what they want to RP. Why not leave it at that? There is certainly a better place to discuss the nature of this topic than a role-playing forum.

[Virella]

An interesting discussion at first, before some fanatics with backwards logic had to ruin it.

 

A good roleplayer will roleplay a good character, regardless of their gender behind the screen.

 

A bad roleplayer will roleplay a bad character, regardless of their gender behind the screen.

[Lost River]

I haven't really seen such a strange ratio you speak of, until you go as people have said, the Miqo'te. But at least its proportionate to lore, as others have already said.

 

Sorry to keep echoing about.

[Desu Nee]

I just believe, as a RP Forum, and RP beings a means of escapism of the pressure and regulations of real life, the discussion of gender and sex over a character was kinda pointless, everyone has a reason to RP, even as the opposite sex, and while some don't do their justice and are the CATGIRLS ARE THE TRUTH Circle, mostly everyone I met in this community are competent rpers, some rping since 1987.

 

 

So, the discussion of Gender here simply isn't as constructive as other places like Tumblr. Also, regarding Tumblr jokes, everyone needs humour once in a while, dear. But then again Professional Thread Derailer, so dunno, maybe I am a shitlord.

 

I just want to be my true self...