Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening:

[Spiritual Machine]

My concern is with the army of hyper-competent youthful dragoons that are all not on the Frontlines fighting for their nation. If you're that elite, what are you doing away during the war? It doesn't mesh, and beyond considering believability and plausibility physics/mechanics/whatever-wise, it doesn't make sense for Ishgard to be content for so many young prodigies to leave during their time of need.

 

I've never been secretive about my roleplaying standards or snobbery. If you're playing a 22 year old super-competent dragoon away on a diplomatic mission, I probably don't want to RP with you. On that same not, you probably don't want to RP with me either.

I'm actually with you on this, but it's something I try to ignore.

 

If we are to make a big deal out of this, then we should feel the same about the little 19yr female miqo crime boss that sips tea in the Quicksand all night talking about how deadly she is. (you know who you are)

 

We'd also have to disagree with all the 20yr old combat jack-of-all-trades masters in axes, swords, archery, lances, daggers. At 20, you're the master of hardly anything.

 

By the time we'd get done, there'd no one for us to RP with.

 

On the contrary, I've found that narrows it down to a very splendid selection.

Eh, I don't like to paint with a wide brush like that, personally. We're all guilty of falling into tropes from time to time--no original ideas and all that.

 

It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.

[Zyrusticae]

Honestly, all of that just comes back to the execution part of the equation. It's entirely up to the player(s) to come up with reasons why they're not part of Ishgard's honor guard and to sell that reasoning properly to other players. Which is a challenge, to be sure, and part of why I do not attempt to claim ownership of a job that is heavily lore-restricted in any such regard.

 

That being said, the abilities at hand are what I'm more concerned with, and frankly I am unconvinced that said jumping abilities are something that must be restricted entirely to Ishgardian dragoons. You would certainly have some explaining to do to justify having those abilities, but no more than any other player already has to justify theirs. The world of Hydaelyn is a very big place, filled with all sorts of people. It makes no sense to limit yourself strictly to what is known.

[cuideag]

It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.

 

This, I think, is very very good advice.

[Tiergan]

It's better to judge a character by their execution than by their qualities, I say. Now, if someone makes a big fuss about their character's age/appearance/wealth/influence/power in roleplay, those are the sorts I look out for. They're the ones that don't strike me as team players.

 

This, I think, is very very good advice.

 

I can definitely understand the frustration with the 16 year old magical prodigies that have mastered every single martial and magical combat skill known to man while also being an excellent cook, skilled alchemist, and isn't completely socially cripple somehow from all the studying they had to be doing. 9 times out of 10, it's led to some pretty awful RP.

 

That said, I've seen some character concepts that for 99% of all RPers would result in ludicrously awful, mary-sue-level, crap storytelling times get pulled off extremely well in the hands of people who knew how to spin a narrative in the right way. Then there are folks RPing pretty unique character concepts that fall flat because the player doesn't really know how to execute them well.

 

Barring someone breaking the lore, I tend to give most people a shot just to see how their RP turns out and then make my decisions after.

[Val]

I'll spit out the inconvenient caveat:

 

The dragoons in the trailer are probably life-long soldiers and cream of the crop. They're the ones on the front lines right now killing dragons to protect their country. It's not unreasonable to say "Oh, that's what world-class dragoons are capable of."

 

That's not to say that every single dragoon out there learns how to do it instantly.

 

I will be unable to take you seriously if your dragoon is under the age of 24 and has only been using a lance for five years. The folks in the trailer are probably your years-served-on-the-frontlines-veterans, not your "I'm a dragoon, but also an envoy to Eorzea and I haven't fought a dragon since 1.0" variety.

 

Don't mind the grognarding, though.

 

 

 

Pretty much every single bit of this. They can do that, but they're frontline warriors. People often take age for granted. If your character is in their 20s, they won't be a master like the ones in the trailer. And they sure won't be a master at one and decent in another. That kind of skill takes a lot of time and dedication, far more than someone with eight years of training (assuming they even start at 16) would have.

[Branson Thorne]

Ageism in full effect in this thread... :lol:

 

Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.

 

Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

[Zelmanov]

I also want to bring up that most likely, a lot of Ishgardians, especially Dragoons who are in their 20's range right now

 

HAVEN'T SEEN JACK **** OF THE HORDE.

 

 

why? because Nidhogg is the true big baddy where things go to all hell. The last time he did that was 20 years ago. People of younger age were either not born, or children young enough to not remember.

 

 

I am CERTAIN there is a fantastic spectrum of "Think I'm good" Dragoons that are about to get a massive reality check when the true might of the horde comes bearing down on Ishgard come Nidhogg's reawakening.

 

 

Orrin's the "Absurdly brave/blinded by duty" type that was listed before, but it is easy to imagine that Vishap finally drove home why they have been fighting for 1000 years for many a soldier and dragoon.

 

 

Those Dragoons in their 40's or so that lived are like the WWII vets looking at the new blood going to Vietnam at the end of heavensward, I am certain.

[Zyrusticae]

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

Well, you are already limited by the game itself simply because the character creation (and thus, your in-game representation of any given character) is also limited, so I would question a premise like that right off the bat simply for lack of tools with which to do so.

 

But yes, obviously there is a sliding scale for this sort of thing. The more outrageous you go, the harder it is to get anyone to buy in to the premise. In this case, however, your hyperbole does you little credit as obviously no one would ever even attempt that in the first place. I see your point but it will never happen, and anyone in their late teens (the much more common scenario) is, quite frankly, enough of an adult that I can see it happening even if it is rather unlikely.

 

At any rate, you might change your mind if you actually read such an amazing story with a series of events crafted in such a way that you cannot help but accept that the way things turned out are the way they should have been - could have been, even. The fact that you reject the idea simply means that this has yet to happen. A shame, but I'll not lose any sleep over it (more because I'm not the one who needs to please you more than anything).

[Branson Thorne]

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

Well, you are already limited by the game itself simply because the character creation (and thus, your in-game representation of any given character) is also limited, so I would question a premise like that right off the bat simply for lack of tools with which to do so.

 

But yes, obviously there is a sliding scale for this sort of thing. The more outrageous you go, the harder it is to get anyone to buy in to the premise. In this case, however, your hyperbole does you little credit as obviously no one would ever even attempt that in the first place. I see your point but it will never happen, and anyone in their late teens (the much more common scenario) is, quite frankly, enough of an adult that I can see it happening even if it is rather unlikely.

 

At any rate, you might change your mind if you actually read such an amazing story with a series of events crafted in such a way that you cannot help but accept that the way things turned out are the way they should have been - could have been, even. The fact that you reject the idea simply means that this has yet to happen. A shame, but I'll not lose any sleep over it (more because I'm not the one who needs to please you more than anything).

I don't think there is a need to please anyone for anything. I am certainly not put to please anyone in particular. I guess we can just write it off as different rp personalities.

[Spiritual Machine]

Ageism in full effect in this thread... :lol:

 

Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.

 

Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

You undermined your philosophy when you exaggerated--such a thing would be inconceivable to execute compellingly and is therefore a bad example. 

[Branson Thorne]

Ageism in full effect in this thread... :lol:

 

Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.

 

Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

You undermined your philosophy when you exaggerated--such a thing would be inconceivable to execute compellingly and is therefore a bad example. 

 

Exaggerated yes, but the point pretty much stays the same. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done)

[ChewableMorphine]

  A Top Gun Dragoon

 

[ChewableMorphine]

I can't believe I'm going to make this comparison but the New Goons in Ishgard are literally

 

 

Maybe this is why there's an impulsive dislike toward them.

[Warren Castille]

I don't speak animu, Flynt. {Please use the autotranslate feature.}

 

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

Well, you are already limited by the game itself simply because the character creation (and thus, your in-game representation of any given character) is also limited, so I would question a premise like that right off the bat simply for lack of tools with which to do so.

 

But yes, obviously there is a sliding scale for this sort of thing. The more outrageous you go, the harder it is to get anyone to buy in to the premise. In this case, however, your hyperbole does you little credit as obviously no one would ever even attempt that in the first place. I see your point but it will never happen, and anyone in their late teens (the much more common scenario) is, quite frankly, enough of an adult that I can see it happening even if it is rather unlikely.

 

At any rate, you might change your mind if you actually read such an amazing story with a series of events crafted in such a way that you cannot help but accept that the way things turned out are the way they should have been - could have been, even. The fact that you reject the idea simply means that this has yet to happen. A shame, but I'll not lose any sleep over it (more because I'm not the one who needs to please you more than anything).

 

That's definitely stopped people from playing children before.

 

Oh wait.

 

...no it hasn't.

[Chris Ganale]

I can't believe I'm going to make this comparison but the New Goons in Ishgard are literally

 

 

Maybe this is why there's an impulsive dislike toward them.

 

Not exactly inaccurate. And I find that amusing.

[Val]

I don't speak animu, Flynt. {Please use the autotranslate feature.}

 

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

Well, you are already limited by the game itself simply because the character creation (and thus, your in-game representation of any given character) is also limited, so I would question a premise like that right off the bat simply for lack of tools with which to do so.

 

But yes, obviously there is a sliding scale for this sort of thing. The more outrageous you go, the harder it is to get anyone to buy in to the premise. In this case, however, your hyperbole does you little credit as obviously no one would ever even attempt that in the first place. I see your point but it will never happen, and anyone in their late teens (the much more common scenario) is, quite frankly, enough of an adult that I can see it happening even if it is rather unlikely.

 

At any rate, you might change your mind if you actually read such an amazing story with a series of events crafted in such a way that you cannot help but accept that the way things turned out are the way they should have been - could have been, even. The fact that you reject the idea simply means that this has yet to happen. A shame, but I'll not lose any sleep over it (more because I'm not the one who needs to please you more than anything).

 

That's definitely stopped people from playing children before.

 

Oh wait.

 

...no it hasn't.

 

..And this, again. I'm going to go ahead and say the younger your character is and the more skilled they are, the more they lean toward mary sue-ish tendencies. I only say this because typically the only young people you see that are exceptional at any sort of skill are the main protagonists of a story, of which none of our characters are. People may disagree with me, but that's just how I feel about it. A 12 year old prodigy that can do special moves works well when they're the main character of the story. ...But we aren't, so I don't see how it's remotely plausible to defend.

[Spiritual Machine]

Ageism in full effect in this thread... :lol:

 

Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.

 

Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

You undermined your philosophy when you exaggerated--such a thing would be inconceivable to execute compellingly and is therefore a bad example. 

 

Exaggerated yes, but the point pretty much stays the same. Just because something can be done, doesn't mean it should be done)

I thought the point was whether or not something could be played out in a compelling fashion.

 

I am not at all disagreeing with you that a mighty infant would be an implausible and ridiculous Final Fantasy XIV roleplay character idea. I personally find it dubious at best.

 

I disagree that you could make it compelling though. I might disagree that anyone could, but, well, we may just never know.

 

All I'm saying is that we should always judge the product, not the ideas used. How does one judge the merits of an idea alone? Passing judgment on all characters who employ x idea is just rather cynical, isn't it?

[C'kayah Polaali]

If we are to make a big deal out of this, then we should feel the same about the little 19yr female miqo crime boss that sips tea in the Quicksand all night talking about how deadly she is. (you know who you are)

 

Speaking as someone who playes a little 31 year old male Miqo crime boss that sips wine in the Quicksand all night listening to all the people talking about how deadly they are, I'd like to know who this person is and why she's not in my employ.

[Erik Mynhier]

Ageism in full effect in this thread... :lol:

 

Just gonna say, I really, really do not give two craps about what ages people give their characters (and this I say as someone playing a warrior who's approaching middle age). There are all kinds of issues you run into when you're so concerned with what's 'plausible' and what isn't in the context of a fictional universe. Some things are reasonable - the laws of physics and how aether works and whatnot are all requred to keep things working and everyone running on the same playing field. On the other hand, if someone wants to play a young prodigy I see little to gain from preventing them from doing so outside of satisfying your own (ageist) snobbery. Like I keep saying, it's all about execution: someone who is such a genius in martial arts would undoubtedly have other issues - including issues from other, older peers who exhibit behavior towards them that is undoubtedly similar to some of the attitudes you see on here towards younger, hyper-competent characters.

 

Ultimately, I think throwing things out based on premise is a really poor practice that needs to stop sooner than later. You miss out on a lot of cool stuff if you ignore things just because the premise sounds boring or overwrought or outrageous to you. You never know when you're going to be surprised. This is especially important because there is only a limited palette to draw from to create any particular premise, hence it all comes down to execution in the end. We draw from the same sources to recreate the same stories over and over again, but the way those stories are told can change dramatically between tellings, and one telling can resonate with one person far better than it does another.

 

Agree to disagree. I could write a compelling piece on how my 2yr old defeated Eorzea's best at the Grindstone, but that still doesn't make it plausible, even if it was executed properly.

 

Exaggerated for effect.

 

True story, my 6yr old has tanked with my character all the hm primals except odin and did about 3mins on the Steps of Faith while I used the restroom... #proudgamerdaddy

 

Back on topic I think it goes to another thread active here about soldiers with aether. Taking in Warren's thought and the mentioned thread I agree with him age is a factor. Yes everyone deserves a chance to rp something new, but in the world as is it is unrealistic that a rookie, even a prodigy, would be able to stand to a vet. For all you militay out there, think back to basic... that old instructer, in his 50s, he could have kicked every one of our "prime of our life" asses. Know martial arts? So what he could kick our ass. Footballer? Body builder? Just big? Didnt matter, bexause no matter your skill, no matter how much potential, experience beats potential everytime.

[Chris Ganale]

Your kid is my hero.

[Khadan]

Well all unwarranted judgmental attitudes aside, the thread has veered into the oncoming lane of off-topic.

 

As per the OP, I'm glad to see some 'validation' from SE on Dragoon. I mean I personally always figured that the aerial strikes were precise, lightning fast, and above all: as lethal as it is effective. The major proof in the pudding for me is the sequence of derplander on the bridge as the dogdragon gets its first hit which moving so fast that you can't see anything but a streak of light that parts clouds like a sonic boom, literally almost doubles it backwards with the force of the blow. The subsequent strikes, each accompanied by a brilliant flash of light and a resounding impact, force the massive beast to falter and die, it's organs pierced and ruptured, its bones shattered in several places.

 

This ain't no joke, kids. Dragoons are serious business because the threat they face is equally serious. I've had many a discussion in the past where, admittedly, most of my points are conjecture and based off other cultures or similar circumstances but the premise is generally that if you are a nation of warriors, with a warrior god, and constantly at war then you're not going to be breeding pansies. Most Ishgardians are probably like Spartans at this point. Even their nobility are likely competent if not skillful fighters. Their children likely begin training as soon as they're old enough to hold a spear and so on and so forth. (Which ties into the age judgements in RP as it pertains to Ishgardians, at least). 

 

Regardless, I'm stoked for Heavensward. It's nothing but huge massive boosts for my character's development and story which has always been a struggle since the launch of 2.0 as an Ishgardian in exile in a land of people who don't share his values, his beliefs, or his outlook on life. Having the chance to return home has been great and there will be many more great things to come I'm betting. =)

[KitKat]

This thread serves to reinforce my opinion that this RP community isn't actually a community at all. It's a smattering of cliques where each one turns their noses up at the next.

 

On topic, I'm in love with the way dragoons were shown in the movie clip. Makes me regret not making Kat one.

[111]

Every class/job is a stupid mary sue and you're a horrible RPer if you play them.

 

If you don't play an arthritic farmer in his 50s who was never good at anything then step the fuck off.

[111]

"Heh... you're good? At concept your character is based around?"

 

"And you play someone young? In a game where the majority of the important NPCs are in their teens and early twenties, and the character creation system mainly generates young, wrinkle free people?"

 

"Mary sue much? You loser."

[Merri]

Please keep the thread on track. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if people can't keep their tones in check I'll have to lock this thread down. Let's play nice~