Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately?

[Zhavi]

As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.

 

To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.

 

This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

 

You could do a week long test where you hide it (without destroying reps) and then ask people about perceived changes, maybe with a poll.

[Verad]

 

This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

 

I would make it more difficult to give reputation so people cannot toss off a quick +1 when somebody gives something snarky, thereby making rep more valuable for both giver and receiver, or I would remove it.

 

Another possibility is to make rep available only to posts on certain forums. Maybe Events and Town Square and a few other places where the goal would be rewarding IC writing rather than OOC snark.

 

This isn't an RPC-specific problem, to be clear. It's just how the internet rewards discourse in general. But in general it leads to toxicity, trolling, and far more aggressive behavior. It can be moderated.

[Alothia]

A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:

 

Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it. 

 

It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.

[Aris]

Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.

[Verad]

A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:

 

Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it. 

 

It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.

 

Then I need to know what you and the moderators consider an asshole. You will be setting the tone; better to provide concrete examples.

[FreelanceWizard]

A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:

 

Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it. 

 

It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.

 

Then I need to know what you and the moderators consider an asshole. You will be setting the tone; better to provide concrete examples.

 

We'll be providing a list of bad behaviors along with examples, explanations of how they'll be interpreted, and what the consequences are before we start enforcing it. It wouldn't be fair or transparent to say "we're cracking down in a more active way using some new standard" and then not tell people what the standard is, of course.

 

EDIT: We're currently in the process of finalizing this, BTW.

[Aya]

Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.

If people really feel that the RPC is in need of removal of reputations in order to be a friendly, fun place then I honestly have no idea what's going on any more.

[Warren Castille]

You could do a week long test where you hide it (without destroying reps) and then ask people about perceived changes, maybe with a poll.

 

My concern with that: There's already an existing attitude towards anyone with a certain number of reputation bumps. I won't invoke the off-topic "P" word but a week won't change any single person's opinion that's already on this board: The red names and green numbers are already noted by the people who will take umbrage with them.

 

I will admit that I thought I was doing a small service for the folks posting on the Welcome Board. When you're someone new to a community and you're making a post where you're not sure if you're going to be received well (if at all!) I thought it helped to see someone with an older date and a big number of posts and such greet you. It's one thing to slip quietly into a new community, it's something else to walk into a party and have someone wave you in and go "Hey! You're here! Awesome!"

 

Maybe I'm wrong, though. This whole thread's made me feel very insecure and introspective about how I come across, and honestly? It's just made me want to post less. There's this stigma of "P" word that I can't metabolize, and in the face of not being able to openly discuss issues because of my own guilty conscience I'm going to opt out every single time. I don't want to get into another argument about that particular term but it's stupid and wrong. RP isn't zero sum, and I can say that I personally roleplay with far, far fewer of you all than I'd like.

[Kage]

A -very- -bad- idea came to my mind because I started to think about human nature, reddit, and how things be upvoted or not.

 

In my experience, a lot of people have given me reps for posting something they agree with or find enjoyable. The very bad idea was to allow a system that shows you that they disagree with how you said something or what you said.

 

So uh, carry on it was a bad bad thought.

[Zhavi]

Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.

If people really feel that the RPC is in need of removal of reputations in order to be a friendly, fun place then I honestly have no idea what's going on any more.

 

> You're new to the forum

> You see someone with a lot of reputation making a negative post.

> You might then be inclined to believe that that sort of posting is normal, encouraged, and perpetuated by the community and staff.

> You adjust your behavior to match with what you perceive the community to be.

[Maril]

As part of that catharsis, I'm rewarded for it by the structure of the board. My reputation is very high given my post-count. If you were to click through that reputation and examine it, you would find that most of those boosts come directly in response to a hostile comment. That could be because it's witty, it says something that people agree with, or because they just like me and want me to post more in general, I don't know. But the hostility is what gets me points. Tiny little ego-boosts to surprise and brighten my day. Somebody likes it when I'm a shithead far more than when I'm constructive or writing IC fiction, and I don't think I'm the only person for which that's true.

 

To be clear, I am not excusing my hostility as the fault of the reputation system, nor am I excusing anybody else's for the same. Reputation facilitates and rewards, but I would be hostile without it - though probably to a lesser extent.

 

This is an interesting point. I've had a couple of people suggest to me that the reputation system is not having the desired effect (which is to say, giving bennies to good users) but is instead incentivizing bad behavior as you described. I wonder if the reputation system is, at this point, perhaps causing more harm than good by creating a perception that some people are better than others. Would it better to hide reputation from other users? Remove it entirely?

 

I would say probably hide the number away in the first go. Some others have commented already that it would reduce the boastability which can have some negative consequences. 

 

Another thing to consider: 

Making writing a comment mandatory - So people have to say why they do it. It might spark people hold back on their +1's a bit and honestly, I'd prefer receiving one with a reason than an empty one. It's more constructive that way. It would also help with the next thing I would suggest, and that is to monitor abuse of the function (eg if someone is +1'ing everything a specific person says regardless of what it is)

[Aya]

> You're new to the forum

> You see someone with a lot of reputation making a negative post.

> You might then be inclined to believe that that sort of posting is normal, encouraged, and perpetuated by the community and staff.

> You adjust your behavior to match with what you perceive the community to be.

First of all, is the RPC really that hostile?

 

Secondly, do you think that the overall tone matters more?  Or that some theoretical person with a high rep count acting like a jerk in a thread really has that much impact?

 

All I can think of is that this is way overreacting, and getting lost in navel gazing.

[Warren Castille]

As the biggest jerk with the highest rep, no one's emulating me. This is probably a good thing.

[No Longer Exists]

*Peeks out from under the hat....again*

 

While I applaud the bandying of fresh ideas on how to alter the current course, I cannot in good conscience sit back on this particular piece of the discussion either. Doing away with the reputation system, temporarily or not, for any reason would be a monumental step back, in my not so humble opinion. Here's why I think so.

 

1> The proper use of the reputation system is not in actual jeopardy, a small number has mentioned that they've been given props for being a dick (Oooo, I used a cussword) and we who are not moderators need to keep in mind that this is their perspective on why they received props. The props are given by a third party for that individual's reason and it may say "I'm glad you said that" but whose to say the individual meant to applaud being a dick or the point that was being made? Also, from a statistical standpoint, the rep system is by and large used appropriately so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Focus.

 

2> Limiting the usage to IC only would sooner turn the system into a waste of bytes than it would promote IC writing and damage the communities open, transparent ability to appreciate one another.

 

3> Some folks have been here for a long time, some have made a significant impact on the community in a short period and that is currently obvious with the rep system. Removing it to "level the playing field" is tantamount to stripping all level 50s of their gear in game and mailing everyone on every server i55 gear so no one is better and we're all the same. Those who have made the effort to engage, to inspire, to plan, to implement, and sometimes even to bring a bit of rationale back to an irrational issue, have nothing to show for it. The rep system is not elitism, it's recognition for a job well done and a clear indicator of movers, shakers, and positive members within the community. Doing away with it to placate anyone is, essentially, wrong on a level I cannot even accurately describe without using the term "rude".

[Oscare]

Removing rep is just putting a band-aid on a gash.

 

People like the rep because it helps others feel good for a post they made. For example; you sat down three hours to make this wonderful shortstory, it helps to know that people liked it; or if the user made an excellent point and people liked it. If people are misusing it or using it to promote bad behavior, then that's a problem that needs to be individually addressed between the user and the moderators. 

 

In other words: it's not going to help, to put it bluntly.

[Warren Castille]

I'll be slapdash before I leave work:

 

I'm a fan of any adjustment that means I can have an opinion without being written off as circlejerking with people I don't really associate with outside of the Grindstone.

[Zhavi]

You could do a week long test where you hide it (without destroying reps) and then ask people about perceived changes, maybe with a poll.

 

My concern with that: There's already an existing attitude towards anyone with a certain number of reputation bumps. I won't invoke the off-topic "P" word but a week won't change any single person's opinion that's already on this board: The red names and green numbers are already noted by the people who will take umbrage with them.

 

I will admit that I thought I was doing a small service for the folks posting on the Welcome Board. When you're someone new to a community and you're making a post where you're not sure if you're going to be received well (if at all!) I thought it helped to see someone with an older date and a big number of posts and such greet you. It's one thing to slip quietly into a new community, it's something else to walk into a party and have someone wave you in and go "Hey! You're here! Awesome!"

 

Maybe I'm wrong, though. This whole thread's made me feel very insecure and introspective about how I come across, and honestly? It's just made me want to post less. There's this stigma of "P" word that I can't metabolize, and in the face of not being able to openly discuss issues because of my own guilty conscience I'm going to opt out every single time. I don't want to get into another argument about that particular term but it's stupid and wrong. RP isn't zero sum, and I can say that I personally roleplay with far, far fewer of you all than I'd like.

 

I cant' speak for everyone, obviously, but I've never had a problem with your posts as a whole (I've disagreed with you! But you and I have a lot in common, so - and I generally enjoy your posts). Then again, I haven't felt that way towards anyone. There will be times, in certain threads, when I'll get annoyed with someone or feel aggressive towards their posts, but once I dip out or take a break I forget about it. It's a forum. I generally respect everyone on the board, to varying degrees, and don't dislike anyone -- though I do dislike recurring attitudes or behaviors that I find unproductive.

 

I agree that there is a positive impact that can come from high reputation, when it's used right. Hell, Blizzard recognized that when they created their VIP program for their forums, where consistently helpful and positive people were given green names and post texts. Now, I don't think that would work here (too small, imo), but there are other ways for people to determine longstanding community members: namely join date, post count, and general posting tendencies. There are plenty of people I have never spoken directly to who I recognize by avatar, name, and/or signature.

 

I like the reputation system. I love being able to +1 someone and let them know 'hey! I think your ideas/writing/whatever is awesome!' -- but I can also see how that might change perspective over time, as well as perpetuate the 'celebrity' sense that some people have towards others in the forum.

[FreelanceWizard]

I just wanted to put out here that I'm asking questions and feeling out possible ideas; I'm no Strongman Leader who thinks he knows everything. If I were, I'd have locked this thread and buried my head in the sand. I'm trying to get a better idea of what people are feeling and what the causes of those feelings might be.

 

The only thing that is definitely being done is an increase in both the activity and transparency of moderation to help bring the tone back in line. Combined with users being more introspective and minding the feelings of others before they post, I think we'll get a lot of traction in getting back to where I hear we want to be. Other things, like changing the reputation system, hiding post counts, putting moderated posts in an open forum for everyone to view, or what have you are concepts and ideas that may or may not be implemented. So, just because an idea is proposed (even by me) doesn't mean it's going to happen.

[Branson Thorne]

A note from a moderator about the rewarding of hostility:

 

Be warned. What you have received before in rep points may quickly become warnings and temporary bans. This is directed toward everyone who enjoys being hostile. We suggest that you start curbing that behavior quickly, because we are going to start cracking down on it. 

 

It's great to be open and honest. You don't have to be an ass hole to others to get your point across, however.

I find the term asshole to be very subjective.

 

There seem to be a lot of thin-skinned people on this forum who view everything as a personal attack. Someone says they do not think their character is lore breaking, I reply I think it is. They counter, I counter, they counter, I counter, but yet somehow, I have now become an inconsiderate asshole who is not open to others opinions, when in fact that same attitude is implied towards me.

 

So question: Was I really an asshole, or was that person just overly sensitive and needs to thicken up a bit?

If everyone would stop being so sensitive over EVER. LITTLE. THING. We wouldn't even have this problem.

 

So I don't agree with someone, so they don't agree with me, I certainly do not care. I recognize that people are different from me, hence different opinions, thoughts etc, but last I checked, I'm permitted to announce my displeasure over a certain topic, the same as someone is allowed to announce their acceptance of it.

 

And I have a feeling this is what is considered an asshole post, because unlike a lot of people, I say what needs to be said, and people hate the truth. But I should not be considered an asshole over it.

 

(Also nothing in this post was not aimed at the person it was replied to, just following along within their point. Also note, this posting is not aimed at anyone in particular)

[Zhavi]

> You're new to the forum

> You see someone with a lot of reputation making a negative post.

> You might then be inclined to believe that that sort of posting is normal, encouraged, and perpetuated by the community and staff.

> You adjust your behavior to match with what you perceive the community to be.

First of all, is the RPC really that hostile?

 

Secondly, do you think that the overall tone matters more?  Or that some theoretical person with a high rep count acting like a jerk in a thread really has that much impact?

 

All I can think of is that this is way overreacting, and getting lost in navel gazing.

 

I, personally, haven't really noticed an overabundance of negativity -- what I have noticed is a lot of people saying that they feel ostracized, shut out, ignored, beaten down, and/or hesitant to post around other people.

 

My post is a hypothetical based off of some of the comments in this thread from new people. Yes, it leans towards the extreme end, but that is part and parcel of human behavior. We adjust our behavior to communities, especially if there is a perception of someone who is respected and/or popular behaving a certain way. Does it mean I'm right? No, but it doesn't mean I'm wrong, either.

[Roen]

I think being able to give someone positive feedback through repping them is a GOOD thing. It promotes positivity.

 

I don't know the answer to the situation that Verad honestly put forth though, that snark and negativity are also rewarded here. But to remove the repping system, isn't that like "let's get rid of the bad, yeah we lose the good but oh well" kind of an answer?

 

I do like Nailah's idea though. Maybe just not be able to see people's rep count below their avatar on a post?

 

Honestly, when I read someone's post, I don't pay attention to that at all. It isn't their rep that lends validity to what they said, it is what they said that counts. But hearing from others, perhaps that is an uncommon practice rather than a common one. Not seeing the green number beneath the poster's avatar wouldn't affect me one bit.

 

But, I will admit this. The thing that brightens my day here on the RPC, is to get a rep from someone for a story post that I wrote. It is a wonderful form of positive feedback that I cherish. So I hope repping system as a whole does not go away. I also too love repping people for either their eloquence, succinct honesty, or just because their post made me laugh.

[Max]

> You're new to the forum

> You see someone with a lot of reputation making a negative post.

> You might then be inclined to believe that that sort of posting is normal, encouraged, and perpetuated by the community and staff.

> You adjust your behavior to match with what you perceive the community to be.

First of all, is the RPC really that hostile?

 

Secondly, do you think that the overall tone matters more?  Or that some theoretical person with a high rep count acting like a jerk in a thread really has that much impact?

 

All I can think of is that this is way overreacting, and getting lost in navel gazing.

 

-emerges from the shadowy bowels of tam-tara deepcroft-

As a newcomer to the forum, I hardly notice the reps. In some forums, there's a list or a number at the bottom of every post that indicates the amount of reps that particular post received. It isn't like that here.

 

I can understand Zhavi's point, but I honestly couldn't imagine it making that much of an impact. You could easily say the same thing about a user's join date -- since they're a veteran on the forum that a newbie is more inclined to side with any negativity they display. (Again, same with the name colors and whatnot)

 

Also, maybe it's my naivety as a newbie, but I haven't really noticed that much hostility. I've seen snide remarks and passive aggressiveness during arguments here and there, but it doesn't seem as bad as some are making it out to be in this thread.

 

-slithers back into abyss-

[Aya]

In other words: it's not going to help, to put it bluntly.

Exactly, its one of the most effective means we have of conducting positivity.  Many people don't want to make posts praising someone, some will send PMs, many more happily hit that +1 rep button, and often leave a nice comment too. 

 

I feel like we've circled the wagons with the guns facing the wrong direction: toward each other.  This thread is full of high criticism and as much aggression and animosity as any thread on the forum lately.

 

While what we have been dealing with are a handful of controversial topics which have become testy and the occasional heavy-handed criticism of concepts and ideas these things are (sometimes) unfortunate, but are not a reason to demand vast overwhelming changes to a community that has been well run and well conducted for such a long time.

 

I know we all have our own prescriptions, but in the end it boils down to: don't be a jerk.  Express your opinion respectfully, and don't hammer away at someone (or something) with the intent to obliterate it.  Understand and accept that this is a large community with a variety of opinion and interest, and what what we all consider good RP and good use of time will vary widely. 

 

These sorts of things cannot be moderated from on high.  Board moderators can only do their best to work within a framework to keep the edge cases in check, overall the tone will be our responsibility as users to set. 

 

I find it especially upsetting that those very threads most intent upon boosting the tone of the board also come in for harsh criticism.  What exactly are we supposed to do?  Cannot be too positive to each other, cannot be too negative.  Only post when other people think its appropriate?  How about we just accept all of the good that the community has to offer, and do our best to mitigate the bad.

 

I can't help but feel like all of these suggestions for any major changes are overreaction.  Things are not bad, worthy of a moment of reflection, perhaps, but not (apropos a particular thread), of revolution. 

 

This has been one of my very favorite web communities, and I've enjoyed it for over a year to the point that I tend to check it almost constantly to see whats going on.  The idea that we cannot handle or manage ourselves had never occurred to me.  But, if we're to be a community where we really have to trust the moderators to make things right, and we have to remove such dangerous tools as a reputation system from the hands of users lest new forum goers be intimidated, or undesirable habits be spread, then all I can say is that is not a community that will garner my interest, let alone my love.

[Zhavi]

 

 

I know we all have our own prescriptions, but in the end it boils down to: don't be a jerk.  Express your opinion respectfully, and don't hammer away at someone (or something) with the intent to obliterate it.  Understand and accept that this is a large community with a variety of opinion and interest, and what what we all consider good RP and good use of time will vary widely. 

 

 

Personal responsibility is what I've been peddling for almost all of my posts in this thread -- but I also think it's worthwhile exploring other options.

 

edit - exploring as in thinking about and hypothesizing about, to get feedback on and get opinions on, such as Max's input. I don't think that's inherently negative.

[SaintEaon]

Sometimes people are just twats. I mean if we're talking aggression be it on here or in game, just last night we were RPing in the Quick Sands as one often does. A player whom I'd never met, whom I'd never RP'd with, whom I had no idea who she was felt the need to try and throw my character across the room after losing a /random. Now among my friends this was controversial and apparently it was also controversial on their side as well, but the way it broke down was I thought that was a bit extreme, I refused to believe that a blind monk of equal or lesser size to myself lifted my character in full armor and threw him across the room because of a /random. I got knocked back and knocked off balance, but refused to be thrown. If this was a problem to the other RPer this person could have Pm'd me and talked about it like a normal human. However instead of explaining who she was and what her character was like she assumed I knew who she was and that this was possible (though I still vehemently disagree that it is), and could have worked on a compromise. Instead she exited the RP OOCly a few minutes later after rather than fighting my character refused to defend himself (we were all technically on the same side and fighting allies seemed...dumb?) then quit the RP and left. 

 

She was mad we were "Ignoring" her posts and the "Strength" of her character. However the divisive bit is that myself and one of my partners thought what she was doing was so extreme that I was within my rights to refuse to be hurled across the room like a plate or something. Our other partner said that by refusing I undermined her character, and that's where the bottle neck occurred because I don't give a damn how strong you think you are, I hold people who RP against me to some level of common sense when you deal with me, and she clearly didn't. However a simple PM explaining who she was could have resolved that, instead she chose to be an aggressive twat about it and storm out which then caused several hours of heated debate among friends because while everyone agreed making snide, snarky, bitchy, and uncalled for remarks OOC wasn't the right thing to do, was how I handled myself the right thing to do? And the answer is its debatable. 

 

And that in lies the problem with RPers on forums and why communication is the most important thing. I've been browsing this thread here and there all day and it seems a central theme is that sometimes people disagree, and I'm sure this person is normally quiet reasonable. However if you don't explain what or why you will or wont do something you can't expect other people to understand you. Likewise if you're not willing to talk and understand and expect people to rise to your level or whatever you're just going to create disconnects. 

 

I've been lucky in that with the RPers I've found in game we're pretty open and we get along with most other players (this has actually been the only incident) that most people tend to fall in line relatively well. However if you think there's a misunderstanding and you answer with hostility as this player did, all you do is make someone else hostile and bitter and that's the death of communication and establishes the idea of cliques. The result of this player being a twat OOCly last night? Blacklisted. Or if I have to unblacklist this person, out of spite I'm either going to ignore their existence entirely or if we do end up RPing again, be understood we're playing by my rules which adhere to realism rather than jumping 30 feet in the air and tossing people across the room like they're weightless. Its not perfect, but if you refuse to communicate then purposely spite someone on your way out, that's the treatment you can expect.

 

And just like that hostility/aggression is bred.