Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Naunet]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

Who knows, there could be some tasty ones with Heavensward.

[Mercer]

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

 

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

[Tyndles]

The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

 

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

 

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

 

I honestly don't agree with you on this one.  It's not "punishment."  It's a way of extending the content, and it's practiced in one form or another by every successful MMO.

 

Staples in some MMOs. Not that it changes anything just because another game is guilty of the same flaws. It's punishment via tedium, plain and simple.

 

Either make multi-classing viable on one character outside of the magic classes or give those eight character slots some incentive. It's really not that hard either way.

 

Staples in every successful, raiding-focused MMO.  WoW does it.  SWTOR does it.  Rift does it.  Wildstar does it.  Name me a wildly successful MMO with a serious raiding endgame that doesn't engage in content gating via tomes, raid lockouts, etc?

 

 

 

That still does not explain why they chose to give us 8 character slots. And if we choose to use up all of those other slots, we're punished by having to go through the MSQ's again. (I wouldn't mind having to level them, I actually like leveling.)

 

By all intents and purposes, they should have just charged us the price of the game, the $14.95 a month sub, and only give us 1 character slot. Period.

 

But I get that this is how they made their game. So... /shrug

 

There are some people who will play enough to fill those slots up and actually level the characters in all the classes.  I personally think it's insane, but they do it.

 

I don't really care if I have 8 character slots or not.  I'm very content with my one character.

 

 

 

 

Not exactly. Say you pick up BRD, but you've been a mage at heart. Well, guess what? Now you have to pick up 34 levels of LNC just so you won't run out of TP and have a reasonable burst, all skills you won't be able to use on anything but those two classes. That is hardly an incentive, especially with all the gear nonsense; only soldiery gear is able to be acquired on a reasonable time frame. Everything else is either luck and/or a grind.

 

And I'm sorry, but if you have to artificially elongate progress in a video game to keep people in it, then the problem lies not with the pacing, but with the core design itself. Ironically, FFXIV doesn't have this problem, so why does SQX bother? Cosmetics and housing are the only real end-game, not a hackneyed treadmill that only a minority will enjoy for a few months before picking up the next new shiny MMO.

 

That's a personal opinion.  There are many people very devoted to the PvE endgame, and you have no right to denigrate their focus.

 

What's more, you were complaining earlier that SE won't let us grind Tomes and gear all day erry day, but now you're complaining about having to grind classes to get cross-classes.  I'm entirely confused as to how you are working this out logically.

 

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

 

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

 

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

 

I think he means that you don't need to play the class to 50 to get all the benefits out of it, and if they find the class dreadful, why stick with it to 50?  It would be faster (because it'd be more fun, and you'd play more often this way) to get paladin to..whatever you need for provoke then start over with something that MIGHT be more entertaining.   

 

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes.  That would be funny.

[Kellach Woods]

I think he means that you don't need to play the class to 50 to get all the benefits out of it, and if they find the class dreadful, why stick with it to 50?  It would be faster (because it'd be more fun, and you'd play more often this way) to get paladin to..whatever you need for provoke then start over with something that MIGHT be more entertaining.   

 

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes.  That would be funny.

 

You'll get armory bonus up to 22 (Provoke is at 22) so you'll recoup some of the time lost, but it's still lost time compared to everything else.

 

TECHNICALLY if you hate PLD (and trust me PLD is dreadful to level until you reach level 26) you should then move on to MRD/WAR because you'll at least have Mercy Stroke, which is a good thing to splash onto anything that can take it. You get Foresight very early on too, which is a decent cross-class defense buff.

 

(This is for DRK, mind)

[ShoggMommy]

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes.  That would be funny.

 

This is highly unlikely due to MSQ-storyline, I am informed.

[Tyndles]

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes.  That would be funny.

 

This is highly unlikely due to MSQ-storyline, I am informed.

 

But just imagine the little level 30 newbie corpses littering the ground.  You're dropping the ball here, SE.

[Addison]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

 

John Smedley (president of DBG, formerly SoE) might like to think that the current MMO formula is dead, but that's only because the games his company produces are either failures at launch, or on life support and haven't made money in years.

[Telluride]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

 

John Smedley (president of DBG, formerly SoE) might like to think that the current MMO formula is dead, but that's only because the games his company produces are either failures at launch, or on life support and haven't made money in years.

 

...and the threat lives with EQ Next, in this case. When your company has earned itself the moniker, "They Break Games", you might want to tread very lightly and watch your step.

 

The formula itself isn't gonna be enough to sell games anymore, because MMOs are a time investment above and beyond the usual console game, and with so many on the same formulas, people will find the one they can stick with and ride those rails. The only reasons that EQN has attracted so much attention are that many people have big nostalgia for EQ and EQ2, and the new title has been promising some really big changes to the very core concepts of the MMO formula. And now, the latest news from them hasn't been promising, and without those new concepts, I can't see nostalgia alone keeping EQN afloat if it DOES manage to one day come out.

 

The nearer feature seems to be a resurgence of Sandbox play. Star Citizen can make it big this way, but it's got some hurdles. All the people dumping massive money into it to get their Special Spaceships will have fun, but will people on a smaller budget just be little fish in their big pond, and not be players so much as CONTENT for those big spenders? Also, Half of Eve Online seems to be threatening to jump into Star Citizen and turn it into a Gankfest, if they possibly can, and speaking for myself, if I wanted to play Douchebags and Spreadsheets again, I'd be playing EVE already.

 

But a real sandbox, one that isn't just a playground for trolls, that would make some bank.

 

The old MMO formula isn't a BAD thing - we just have a saturated market for it, and reskinning the Same Old Thing yet again isn't gonna hack it anymore.

[Naunet]

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

 

Because I don't want to play a class I don't enjoy longer than absolutely necessary? Why else did I pick to level WHM first on my main and only later go back to boost acn and thm to needed levels for cross-classing? The level grind without quests is horrendously boring, made even less bearable by having to play a class I don't want to.

[Aya]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.  This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.  Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

[Telluride]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.  This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.  Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

 

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

 

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

 

We appear to still be debating the other elephant in the room - making playing a second class not just an option, but a total requirement if you plan to have your OWN class reach its potential. I still like being able to do multiple classes, and enjoy playing around with it, but SE doesn't want you NOT to do All Of The Classes, to the point where the "option" becomes a bit of a hazy thing. It's an odd bird of a choice, stuck between rigid class roles of most MMOs, and skill/ability/gear -based systems like Fallen Earth and The Secret World, for example.

[Dravus]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.  This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.  Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

 

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

 

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

 

At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

[Telluride]

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.  This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.  Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

 

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

 

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

 

At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

 

True, but this thread, and a lot of others, are noting that the "love letter", to push the metaphor, is hard to read, is full of contradictions, and wants us to be The Hero Of Eorzea while simultaneously, and much too often, yanking our agency, and the character's, away from us. I've said enough of that... well, too many times... to go deeper into it here.

[Aya]

At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

Sure.. that's exactly it.  It is different, it isn't "expected" and it isn't "standard".  There's room to appreciate that, and there's room to criticize that. 

[111]

I think FFXIV is a pretty good game and I like it...

 

 

I think all this will be forgotten in two weeks time.

[Winters Knight]

I think FFXIV is a pretty good game and I like it...

 

 

I think all this will be forgotten in two weeks time.

First. Stealing the image.

 

Second. I would have been upset if I had missed out on story. Even the side stuff. It is just such a good story. At least, to me.

[shotgunbadger]

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

[111]

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

 

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

 

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

[RiniKett]

As someone who has played WoW religiously for the past 9 years, and who has tried -almost- every MMORPG that is out there to date, Final Fantasy makes it hard not to drop my Raid team in WoW and come over full time. Then again, if I actually had to pay for WoW I might not even be on it anymore. They came out with the Token system recently so you can pay with in game currency...

 

But all of that aside, FF14 did really damn good at giving their players what they want. I heard that the original FF14 had the worst launch in the history of MMOs, not proven, and if that is so, then it's even more impressive. Things might be different from what people in other MMOs are use to, but I personally hope they continue to make things different, to change the standard and keep things that you have to work towards. Anyone who has been a loyal WoWer from Vanilla on can tell you the game got less and less enjoyable as they simplified things. But that's just my opinion.

 

*tosses in two pennies.*

[Naunet]

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

 

The debate surrounding this design mechanic has nothing to do with F2P vs P2P (though I'll point out that I'm one of the most ardent defenders of P2P you'll find out there, and I am anything but okay with this Heavensward decision).

[shotgunbadger]

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

 

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

 

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

 

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

[111]

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

 

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

 

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

 

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

 

I think lots of other MMOs have done what you say and they've all been forced to go Free to Play.

 

Do you have a counter example of a subscription MMO that has done the things you suggest and been successful?

 

I could name a dozen or more who have done thing things you've said and gone f2p.

 

I would enjoy if you could bring even one statistic or piece of evidence forward that supports your view besides blind conjecture and anecdote. There are lots of other MMOs that do what you say, so why not just enjoy those instead of saying this one should change?

[Naunet]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the way an MMO handles an expansion is the reason behind it going F2P? Most that I've witnessed made the transition to F2P well before any expansion. The P2P/F2P debate doesn't really belong in this discussion.

 

Also the argument that a player should just pack up and go to another game because X game does something a player doesn't like doesn't really fly with me. There are a million reasons to like or dislike a game. You do not have to accept the whole package to want to play the game, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out observed flaws in that package.

[111]

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the way an MMO handles an expansion is the reason behind it going F2P? Most that I've witnessed made the transition to F2P well before any expansion. The P2P/F2P debate doesn't really belong in this discussion.

 

Also the argument that a player should just pack up and go to another game because X game does something a player doesn't like doesn't really fly with me. There are a million reasons to like or dislike a game. You do not have to accept the whole package to want to play the game, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out observed flaws in that package.

 

People in this thread are arguing that dark chocolate should be sweeter, while there is a shelf full of milk chocolate right next to them. People are criticizing the very things that makes FFXIV successful. It's not just the expansion part. People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them. Aka, they want it to be like a F2P game.

 

It boggles my mind.