Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

[Telluride]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

[111]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

[BroodingFicus]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

 

True if you plan to use an existing character at 50 who is already done up to 2.55. Not true for new players or anyone who may want to make an Au Ra without being forced to sacrifice the appearance of an old/long standing character.

[Telluride]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

 

Is there a new zone or new dungeons for leveling 30-50 that I haven't seen yet? :?

 

I didn't see anything about new content for those levels. The MSQ is supposed to give more EXP, yes, but if I'm just picking up MCH at 30, where do I go to level to 50 that I haven't seen?

[Kage]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

 

Is there a new zone or new dungeons for leveling 30-50 that I haven't seen yet? :?

 

I didn't see anything about new content for those levels. The MSQ is supposed to give more EXP, yes, but if I'm just picking up MCH at 30, where do I go to level to 50 that I haven't seen?

You are correct that anyone leveling the new jobs 30-50 will be doing that leveling in ARR content.

[Naunet]

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

Then why are you arguing? Because that is exactly what we've been asking for - the jobs to be accessible once you've reached level 30 on a class. It's ridiculously easy for SE to plop NPC trainers in Coerthas outside of Ishgard.

[111]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

 

Is there a new zone or new dungeons for leveling 30-50 that I haven't seen yet? :?

 

I didn't see anything about new content for those levels. The MSQ is supposed to give more EXP, yes, but if I'm just picking up MCH at 30, where do I go to level to 50 that I haven't seen?

 

I mean, yes, but do you think every job after your first should start at 50 now? It's a different job, usually they start at one. I find it rather odd to complain about getting 30 levels free.

[Winters Knight]

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

Then why are you arguing? Because that is exactly what we've been asking for - the jobs to be accessible once you've reached level 30 on a class. It's ridiculously easy for SE to plop NPC trainers in Coerthas outside of Ishgard.

I doubt that you are taking into account the lore-wise justification of going into Ishgard. I personally love how the FFXIV developers stick to their guns, and as far as I've made it, following the MSQ has allowed things to progress in an established timeline. Instead of playing other games where entire sections are subverted or never truly explored, the game takes you along and touches each area.

 

So some classes are locked eh? Perhaps that is because Ishgard itself will remain virtually locked with our adventurers being special snowflakes who get to come in. Until we see how Square Enix will introduce this, I find this "Shortcut the MSQ" to be a bit disturbing. New forces are being discovered in the land up North. Not in the areas we have been, otherwise we would have already found them. To find something new, one must go to the place that is new. I would hope that an RPer over all others might at least acknowledge this.

[Telluride]

 

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

 

Inaccurate for some cases.

 

Try this version:

 

"Many people are annoyed that they may have to revisit old content, which they have already worked for, in order to access, and begin earnestly working towards, at least some of the new content, which they have paid for."

 

I don't think people have to revisit old content, if you're already beaten the MSQ, there is nothing to revisit. If anything they're giving us a helping hand by starting the classes at 30 instead of 1.

 

Is there a new zone or new dungeons for leveling 30-50 that I haven't seen yet? :?

 

I didn't see anything about new content for those levels. The MSQ is supposed to give more EXP, yes, but if I'm just picking up MCH at 30, where do I go to level to 50 that I haven't seen?

 

I mean, yes, but do you think every job after your first should start at 50 now? It's a different job, usually they start at one. I find it rather odd to complain about getting 30 levels free.

 

I was addressing your point about "nothing to revisit" by saying that yes, yes there IS old content to revisit, and it's the content that will get you from 30-50.

 

Nathan's going to pick up MCH at some point (after I check out the new bard stuff). I have to start it at 30. So, I gotta run TotoRak, Haukke, all those dungeons, do the existing Leves, and scrounge up FATEs. Just like I had to do to get MNK and DRG to 50. Like I will have to do if I ever want WAR above 32 on him.

 

That is precisely being forced to do old content to get MCH to where it can operate in Ishgard, unless SE has a new zone or such awaiting us for our level 30 pleasures, and yet it still denies giving the new classes to people without doing the MSQ, which is one of the points in this thread.

 

I appreciate that having the new classes begin at 50 will flood the level 50 instances with people who can't play their class specifically because it WAS born yesterday.

 

Why not have an option? It seems reasonable to me to have the new class trainers accessible in, say, Coerthas, when I can sneak up there and learn 'em somewhere between 30 and 40, and continue the MSQ as the new class but on my first character. That is really isn't much different than playing, say, a Bard to 30, then leveling up Monk to from 1-50 to see the rest of the game.

 

I'm not complaining about 30 free levels. I'm pointing out that new players AND old players still can't have the classes without at least a minimum of forced old content. SE is saying that we're not worthy of the new classes until we do the MSQ, and when we do it, we STILL have to go back and regrind. Please go back and read Chachanji's posts in this thread - he's already laid this out for us.

[BroodingFicus]

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

Then why are you arguing? Because that is exactly what we've been asking for - the jobs to be accessible once you've reached level 30 on a class. It's ridiculously easy for SE to plop NPC trainers in Coerthas outside of Ishgard.

I doubt that you are taking into account the lore-wise justification of going into Ishgard. I personally love how the FFXIV developers stick to their guns, and as far as I've made it, following the MSQ has allowed things to progress in an established timeline. Instead of playing other games where entire sections are subverted or never truly explored, the game takes you along and touches each area.

 

So some classes are locked eh? Perhaps that is because Ishgard itself will remain virtually locked with our adventurers being special snowflakes who get to come in. Until we see how Square Enix will introduce this, I find this "Shortcut the MSQ" to be a bit disturbing. New forces are being discovered in the land up North. Not in the areas we have been, otherwise we would have already found them. To find something new, one must go to the place that is new. I would hope that an RPer over all others might at least acknowledge this.

 

No one is asking square to break their lore or subvert the MSQ. As has been said here already, moving the job quest givers outside the state of Ishgard does not have to be a huge violation of existing plot lines. At 30 a quest giver appears. Why? Any number of reasons. Thus far most of the job quest givers have been out on their own on some very specific mission where we happened to come across them. Not in a guild somewhere. Most of the jobs are technically off limits rp wise for exactly that reason. We became (insert most jobs) through very special circumstances that technically cannot be replicated by the general masses. The same could have been done here. When you really look at it, people are bothered by the fact that FFXIV is not sticking to its guns and has changed the way they did things in a way that negatively effects many individuals.

[Xavieraux Reinardes]

Holy crap.

 

26 pages?!

 

What did I do.

[Telluride]

 

No one is asking square to break their lore or subvert the MSQ. As has been said here already, moving the job quest givers outside the state of Ishgard does not have to be a huge violation of existing plot lines. At 30 a quest giver appears. Why? Any number of reasons. Thus far most of the job quest givers have been out on their own on some very specific mission where we happened to come across them. Not in a guild somewhere. Most of the jobs are technically off limits rp wise for exactly that reason. We became (insert most jobs) through very special circumstances that technically cannot be replicated by the general masses. The same could have been done here. When you really look at it, people are bothered by the fact that FFXIV is not sticking to its guns and has changed the way they did things in a way that negatively effects many individuals.

 

Besides, putting all three classes in Ishgard is not required for the story. It is not even in accord with the Lore that we are being given now.

 

Why can't Cid teach us what being a Machinist is? Gosh, we only have the best damn Garlean tech on the planet as one of our own best buddies! And what about all those Limsan gunners?

 

Why can't we learn Dark Knight from one of those disgruntled warriors who, according to SE's very lore, leave their cities and families behind to come fight dragons and seek justice, and we might meet one on the other side of the Stone Vigil? It makes as much sense as every single other job story.

 

And you can't deny that a perfect place for an Astrologian is in the Observatory... in Coerthas.

 

The decision to stuff the new classes in Ishgard is absolutely NOT required by the game lore. Not one bit. It was a design decision, and while they will HAVE lore to back it up, whatever they have made up to support that decision is just as arbitrary as a lot of their other decisions. FF has great lore, but SE is willing to break their own lore very readily for design purposes.

[Dravus]

No MMO is ever going to be custom tailored to everybody's individual tastes. Surely there's plenty of stuff that everybody in this thread loves about the game to justify any of the perceived inconveniences which, incidentally are perks in the eyes of others?

 

I would have thought more role-players would approve of the developers not retconning huge swathes of lore to justify having new content pop up everywhere. I stopped bothering with WoW due to how poorly the lore was handled. Those who really want convenience above all else would likely be happier there - or with any of the other numerous MMO's that don't put much focus on their ongoing stories.

[Aaron]

And truth be told a lot of this seems as if people when they get the class will go around constantly making it known they're a AST DRK MCH or something and constantly looking for fight rp just to do it.

 

In all honesty the class makes up less of a character than the personality imo. You could be a WHM and still be one of the most edgy people in existence. With every cut you inflict on your self sweet succor heals the party.

 

Or something like that.

[Warren Castille]

Just a couple of shotgun points to bring up, in no particular order:

 

-Since this thread was created I leveled 2 alts to 2.55 content. Nobody knows who they are because I made sure to do it on my own, without riding reputation or friends for help.

 

-I'm pretty sure every expansion in WoW made me replay the entire series of expansions if I started a new character. I made a monk? I have to replay Cata/BC/Wrath/Panda/Warlords to get current. Unless I shell out real cash, by the by.

 

-Until recently, if someone wanted to play DK and was new to the game, they had to start at 1, hit 55, then redo everything.

 

-People here seem to be intentionally ignoring the newspost where Yoshi said exp and gear rewards were being streamlined to alleviate the 2.1-2.55 bore. New players will likely be level 51 or 52 upon hitting 3.0's content.

 

-New players won't be bothered by having to redo content because they'll be doing it for the first time

 

-New players who want to play new classes should be used to the MMO design of "Nope, do the boring grind first."

 

-If they're not, they won't buy the expansion.

 

-Seriously, you could have had multiple brand new classes to 50 and waiting for fantasia (included with the expansion!) by now

[Aaron]

SO YOU WERE THAT SECOND WARREN CASTILLE!?

 

I thought I was going psycho

[Kellach Woods]

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

... shit now I want to try and sequence break the game to get into Ishgard early just to make SURE they did actually proof against that.

[111]

I think this is a much more reasonable argument. I do think they should have made them like Ninjas. The only issue is that all the class trainers (from what I understand) are in the new areas, and the MSQ needs to be finished to unlock them. Rather than deal with that they just made it 50.

 

... shit now I want to try and sequence break the game to get into Ishgard early just to make SURE they did actually proof against that.

 

That is an elegant way of doing it.

 

I think it would be cool if they did it this way. Available whenever you can fight your way to the trainer.

[111]

Just a couple of shotgun points to bring up, in no particular order:

 

-Since this thread was created I leveled 2 alts to 2.55 content. Nobody knows who they are because I made sure to do it on my own, without riding reputation or friends for help.

 

-I'm pretty sure every expansion in WoW made me replay the entire series of expansions if I started a new character. I made a monk? I have to replay Cata/BC/Wrath/Panda/Warlords to get current. Unless I shell out real cash, by the by.

 

-Until recently, if someone wanted to play DK and was new to the game, they had to start at 1, hit 55, then redo everything.

 

-People here seem to be intentionally ignoring the newspost where Yoshi said exp and gear rewards were being streamlined to alleviate the 2.1-2.55 bore. New players will likely be level 51 or 52 upon hitting 3.0's content.

 

-New players won't be bothered by having to redo content because they'll be doing it for the first time

 

-New players who want to play new classes should be used to the MMO design of "Nope, do the boring grind first."

 

-If they're not, they won't buy the expansion.

 

-Seriously, you could have had multiple brand new classes to 50 and waiting for fantasia (included with the expansion!) by now

 

B-but warren.... other mmos let me play the stuff right away...

 

And its so much work...

 

And *farts*

[Warren Castille]

Also, Provoke outside of raids is a crutch for tanks unable to do their job properly the first time. And if you want to raid but you're bitching about needing to level a cross-class...

 

Well, I question your dedication to raiding.

[Kellach Woods]

Also, Provoke outside of raids is a crutch for tanks unable to do their job properly the first time. And if you want to raid but you're bitching about needing to level a cross-class...

 

Well, I question your dedication to raiding.

 

Yep, but you're still gonna get chewed out for not having it regardless of your personal beliefs on Provoke.

 

Provoke is a crutch against bad players. Whether you or your party.

 

 

Just a couple of shotgun points to bring up, in no particular order:

 

-Since this thread was created I leveled 2 alts to 2.55 content. Nobody knows who they are because I made sure to do it on my own, without riding reputation or friends for help.

 

It's still relevant content at this point. More people will be queuing than when Heavensward is actually released.

 

You also have the advantage of knowing how the game plays and what pitfalls to avoid, something a new player might or might not have.

 

 

-I'm pretty sure every expansion in WoW made me replay the entire series of expansions if I started a new character. I made a monk? I have to replay Cata/BC/Wrath/Panda/Warlords to get current. Unless I shell out real cash, by the by.

 

 

You were only limited by level, and could go into expansion zones at any time regardless of your level (though for Shattrath/Dalaran while it was relevant content, you needed a mage that has Portal : Shattrath/Dalaran to do so).

 

To be more precise :

 

BC : 58

WotLK : 68

Cata : 80 (first time they enforced max level to continue with the expansion - yes, a lot of players raged against that because Wrath was when people really started leveling a ton of alts. Only two extra levels.)

Mists : 90

WoD : 95

 

Since I only played up until Mists, I can only say that until that time, you could bypass most expansion content other than the quests that got you access to those, so long as you hit the requisite level. Which is impossible to do here (say you were one of the many people who hates the MSQ and decided to skip the entirety of it, you would not have access to Ishgard. WoW would allow you to do that because it doesn't give a shit.)

 

 

-Until recently, if someone wanted to play DK and was new to the game, they had to start at 1, hit 55, then redo everything.

 

 

DK started at 55, so they did not need to redo 55 levels of content. They needed to do 3 levels to get to 58 in order to get to Burning Crusade level. They skipped vanilla entirely.

 

 

-People here seem to be intentionally ignoring the newspost where Yoshi said exp and gear rewards were being streamlined to alleviate the 2.1-2.55 bore. New players will likely be level 51 or 52 upon hitting 3.0's content.

 

 

I haven't and have been mentioning most of these when relevant. So far, other than "priority to new players in Low-Level queues for MSQ content" I've seen nothing that'd alleviate the only real problem they'll be facing. 30-50 content will have current players leveling the new jobs so no real problem there.

 

(Also they've only mentioned the Armory bonus, not additional XP from what I gather. Additional rewards are in and I speculated about those earlier on in the thread.)

 

The problem isn't the iLevel grind (which should be updated to 110 btw because that is what they've said in the same interview) so much than the lack of available players at that level during Heavensward. I honestly do not believe they'll reach 52 during 2.1-2.55 too - 51 is a possibility if they overdo dungeons.

 

51? Yeah, but a million XP minimum is what I expect from 51 to 52 if they want to keep their promise of 50-60 being as long as base game. 1-15 is three hours while falling asleep at keyboard.

 

 

-New players won't be bothered by having to redo content because they'll be doing it for the first time

 

 

Two words : DPS Queues.

 

Terribad now, DANGER !!!!!! TERROR HORROR level for outdated content. 30-50 should be okay since there should be approximately a fuckton of players doing DRK/AST but as soon as they're 50 if their asses aren't in HW dungeons they're doing it wrong.

 

 

-New players who want to play new classes should be used to the MMO design of "Nope, do the boring grind first."

 

 

If you mean "play the class at max level", sure. This isn't the case, here.

 

Get to 50, complete MSQ, go to Ishgard, revert to 30 with new Job, grind to 50, enjoy new content.

 

Typically, a MMO that releases a new class will have the following steps :

 

Level up until new content.

 

Not exactly the same deal.

 

 

-If they're not, they won't buy the expansion.

 

 

Or the game at all if we're talking about new players.

 

 

-Seriously, you could have had multiple brand new classes to 50 and waiting for fantasia (included with the expansion!) by now

 

 

I'm actually waiting until the expansion to level my alts just to see how bad it will be. No sense in arguing here if I'm not willing to live it.

 

(BTW : I'll have a tank and a DPS and likely I won't be leveling them until much further in the expansion's life cycle. My planned Au Ralt will also be doing the path to Ishgard into DRK revisit of the old dungeons!)

[Addison]

Because I don't want to play a class I don't enjoy longer than absolutely necessary? Why else did I pick to level WHM first on my main and only later go back to boost acn and thm to needed levels for cross-classing? The level grind without quests is horrendously boring, made even less bearable by having to play a class I don't want to.

 

Is this you? Because if so, I fail to see what you're complaining about. You're 50. Twice over. I'm going to assume that during your time as a WHM and ARC, you did the MSQ. And if that's the case, you've already met the requirements to unlock the new classes. Congratulations. What exactly is your problem with a requirement you've already met? It sounds like you're complaining for the sake of complaining.

 

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already' date=' but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.  This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, [b']that[/b] is in keeping with standard MMO design.  Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

 

I'm curious as to what MMOs you've played then, because no MMO starts you at the 'end' the second a new expansion is dropped. There is a certain amount of "ready time" one has to accomplish before making it to that point in nearly every MMO out there. Whether it's currency farming, rep/faction grinding, or just grinding the same 4 dungeons over and over to get yourself gear ready for the expansion, everything requires some amount of effort and time.

 

Perhaps I'm not seeing the difference between the MSQ in this game, which actually rewards you along the way, and say....the CoP missions in FFXI, which doesn't give you jack shit in terms of quest EXP (nothing in FFXI gave quest EXP. Ever.) and you hardly got any tangible reward until the very, bitter end.

[Kellach Woods]

Sorry for the double post.

 

 

That is an elegant way of doing it. 

 

I think it would be cool if they did it this way. Available whenever you can fight your way to the trainer.

 

 

I don't mean that - I mean, forcing the game to put you into Ishgard proper since the entrance will likely be blocked by MSQ. Likely through a glitch. Typically, you'd also do a level check or a MSQ check on the trainers when it comes to offering up the Jobs.

 

It'd be weird if they didn't check for that quite frankly, but I've seen dumber shit as a QA tester so.

[Warren Castille]

My lump reply to Kellach to keep the post from being Xbox-huge:

 

I've long-stated that the 2.1 redundant content and subsequent relic grinds were to keep high level people playing to lubricate the DF for low level folks. That's why Hests become relevant, that's why low level roulette exists, that's why Atma books sent you into a ton of under-content dungeons. It's not a coincidence that the new jobs start at level 30, and anyone thinking or saying otherwise isn't looking at this from a game design side of things. Hint: It's to help everyone else, not you.

 

So is the problem that new players won't have old players running roulettes? What about other new players? I'll remind you that at 2.0 launch, Balmung was a legacy server. My ass was grinding Sastasha NM in my AF and already as a job. Somehow we survived. If there's no new players, there's no problem. If there's a lot of new players, there's still no problem. So what's the problem?

 

SE has declared, by virtue of locking jobs behind 3.0 content, that there were no MCH, AST or DRKs present in the 2.x storyline. Everyone can bitch and whine and cry about it if they like, but that's what's SE declared.

 

Also you could go into WoW expansions 2 levels earlier than the cap, but you still had to do a ton of questing through Outlands and Northrend and Pandaria and New!Vanilla before you could move on. There's also the catch that, sure, you could go earlier than intended, but you couldn't actually DO anything if you didn't hit those strict X8 breakpoints. Got me on the DK thing, though.

[Kellach Woods]

My lump reply to Kellach to keep the post from being Xbox-huge:

 

I've long-stated that the 2.1 redundant content and subsequent relic grinds were to keep high level people playing to lubricate the DF for low level folks. That's why Hests become relevant, that's why low level roulette exists, that's why Atma books sent you into a ton of under-content dungeons. It's not a coincidence that the new jobs start at level 30, and anyone thinking or saying otherwise isn't looking at this from a game design side of things. Hint: It's to help everyone else, not you.

 

So is the problem that new players won't have old players running roulettes? What about other new players? I'll remind you that at 2.0 launch, Balmung was a legacy server. My ass was grinding Sastasha NM in my AF and already as a job. Somehow we survived. If there's no new players, there's no problem. If there's a lot of new players, there's still no problem. So what's the problem?

 

SE has declared, by virtue of locking jobs behind 3.0 content, that there were no MCH, AST or DRKs present in the 2.x storyline. Everyone can bitch and whine and cry about it if they like, but that's what's SE declared.

 

Also you could go into WoW expansions 2 levels earlier than the cap, but you still had to do a ton of questing through Outlands and Northrend and Pandaria and New!Vanilla before you could move on. There's also the catch that, sure, you could go earlier than intended, but you couldn't actually DO anything if you didn't hit those strict X8 breakpoints. Got me on the DK thing, though.

 

If there's little new players .

 

Also... Guildhests are relevant? HOW?

 

In so far as the breakpoints, you're arguing in terms of XP lock - Most of the people arguing are specifying MSQ lock since that goes beyond just hitting a requisite level.