A New Primal Approaches

[Warren Castille]

Keep in mind when discussing people's reactions: Roleplayers vary as much as anything else, so it's impossible to rationalize "Well, most people would feel X way about Y incident."

 

There's also the obvious caveat of the lalafell cult thing doing the summoning: So far we've seen summoning result in the entity being conjured on the spot. If your lalafell tribe is being held captive, there are some unanswered questions.

 

1) Why would Memenu leave those who summoned her in a jam to roam to Eorzea?

 

2) If they're not saved, and are still captured, why would they resummon her? She failed them the first time.

 

3) If somehow the summon didn't conjure Memenu to the summoners, how would they even know it worked? If she gets killed, how would they know to resummon her?

 

4) If they are saved, why would they resummon Memenu at all? Their plight is over.

[Aduu Avagnar]

 

Except she's destroying the planet by existing at all.  I mean, there are no ifs, ands, or buts about that - Primals strip the planet of aether and destroy the land when they are summoned.  Even Good King Moggle Mog and Ramuh (neither of whom are exactly "evil" by nature) had to go because they were destroying the planet.

 

Edited to Add: And wasn't that the issue with the Garleans in the first place?  The biggest fear at the time was less that the Garleans would march through and take over (though that was definitely a fear), and more that the Beast Tribes would, out of desperation, summon Primals...which were viewed as worse than an invasion by Garlemald.

 

Maybe I'm misremembering something right here...

 

What I'm reading on the FF wiki is that Primals are a threat due to their never-ending want of followers, crystals and Aether to increase their power. If this is correct, Memenu is a "non-threat" which is both unique and...Strange. I'm looking more into it, because I'm only getting this from the Moggle Mog page.

IIRC only Ifrit and Leviathan actively enforce their tempering on people as a means to expand their influence, Garuda does it because of the threat, and as far as we can tell Ramuh, Titan and Shiva don't do it except to those that seek it out. (although some could say that being a heretic is pretty similar)

 

Primals drain the land of Aether through their continued existance, thereby slowly, killing the land, it is the reason that they are hunted down so vigourously. The threat posed by their continued existance is too great.

 

 

 

It is also the reason that Bahamut being hooked up to the machine was a big deal, it still retained a metric fuck ton of aether that wasn't being returned to Hydaelyn thereby slowing its recovery post calamity. It is also why Louisoix becoming Phoenix was such a big deal.

 

 

[Viola]

Keep in mind when discussing people's reactions: Roleplayers vary as much as anything else, so it's impossible to rationalize "Well, most people would feel X way about Y incident."

 

There's also the obvious caveat of the lalafell cult thing doing the summoning: So far we've seen summoning result in the entity being conjured on the spot. If your lalafell tribe is being held captive, there are some unanswered questions.

 

1) Why would Memenu leave those who summoned her in a jam to roam to Eorzea?

 

2) If they're not saved, and are still captured, why would they resummon her? She failed them the first time.

 

3) If somehow the summon didn't conjure Memenu to the summoners, how would they even know it worked? If she gets killed, how would they know to resummon her?

 

4) If they are saved, why would they resummon Memenu at all? Their plight is over.

 

1. Why would Memenu leave those who summoned her in a jam to roam Eorzea?

Not by choice, if the Garlean military found out, she'd probably be killed almost immediately, more so if Ultima was combat ready. Especially within Garlean lines.

 

2. If they're not saved, why would they resummon her if she failed them the first time?

Point number one, but they could've been re-deployed somewhere else or are in a location not yet visited by the players as of the events of 2.5.

 

3a. If somehow the summoning ritual didn't conjure Memenu to the summoners, how would they even know it worked?

They wouldn't, but as one of her followers used her own soul and body as the sacrifice, the summon had a perfect focal point.

 

3b. If she gets killed, how would they know to resummon her?

At this point, they most likely wouldn't. The amount of time and effort required to get the materiel needed would probably take too long to summon her again if it was needed, especially with the fall of the Castrums (or most of them) in Eorzea.

 

 

4. If they are saved, why would they resummon Memenu at all? Their plight is over.

Exactly; why would they? Perhaps to help others who are as misfortunate as they were during their time subjugated to Garlean prisoners. While not everyone needs a savior, the realm needs a hero, no matter how unlikely they may be.

 

-edit-

Nako'li, http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Primal

 

" it is said that the flux of aether over Silvertear Falls has been disrupted and the whole land of Eorzea will slowly perish if this process isn't reversed."

[Edricane]

You can play your character how you want, RP her how you want. But I'm sad to say she's walking lore bomb. Primals are destroyed as Liadan said, because they poison Hydaelyn. The reason the Garleans haven't amassed a massive force to attack Eorzea and rid of the primal problem, is because the primal problems in other places are greater, seeing the scions are snuffing out what primals pop up in Eorzea.

[Warren Castille]

Forgive my bluntness, my brain's not work well so good this sun hours.

 

Lalafell prisoners summon Memenu. Can you give me the list of events that result in her not rescuing those who summoned who, allowed her to not die and still made it to Eorzea proper? I'm just having trouble imagining the scene as it would happen.

[Aduu Avagnar]

Keep in mind when discussing people's reactions: Roleplayers vary as much as anything else, so it's impossible to rationalize "Well, most people would feel X way about Y incident."

 

There's also the obvious caveat of the lalafell cult thing doing the summoning: So far we've seen summoning result in the entity being conjured on the spot. If your lalafell tribe is being held captive, there are some unanswered questions.

 

1) Why would Memenu leave those who summoned her in a jam to roam to Eorzea?

 

2) If they're not saved, and are still captured, why would they resummon her? She failed them the first time.

 

3) If somehow the summon didn't conjure Memenu to the summoners, how would they even know it worked? If she gets killed, how would they know to resummon her?

 

4) If they are saved, why would they resummon Memenu at all? Their plight is over.

 

1. Why would Memenu leave those who summoned her in a jam to roam Eorzea?

Not by choice, if the Garlean military found out, she'd probably be killed almost immediately, more so if Ultima was combat ready. Especially within Garlean lines.

 

2. If they're not saved, why would they resummon her if she failed them the first time?

Point number one, but they could've been re-deployed somewhere else or are in a location not yet visited by the players as of the events of 2.5.

 

3a. If somehow the summoning ritual didn't conjure Memenu to the summoners, how would they even know it worked?

They wouldn't, but as one of her followers used her own soul and body as the sacrifice, the summon had a perfect focal point.

 

3b. If she gets killed, how would they know to resummon her?

At this point, they most likely wouldn't. The amount of time and effort required to get the materiel needed would probably take too long to summon her again if it was needed, especially with the fall of the Castrums (or most of them) in Eorzea.

 

 

4. If they are saved, why would they resummon Memenu at all? Their plight is over.

Exactly; why would they? Perhaps to help others who are as misfortunate as they were during their time subjugated to Garlean prisoners. While not everyone needs a savior, the realm needs a hero, no matter how unlikely they may be.

 

-edit-

Nako'li, http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Primal

 

" it is said that the flux of aether over Silvertear Falls has been disrupted and the whole land of Eorzea will slowly perish if this process isn't reversed."

to take the entire sentence:

 

Due to the presence of Primals in Eorzea and the massive amount of energy needed to summon them, it is said that the flux of aether over Silvertear Falls has been disrupted and the whole land of Eorzea will slowly perish if this process isn't reversed.

It is the summoning of the Primals that is disrupting it.

[Viola]

You can play your character how you want, RP her how you want. But I'm sad to say she's walking lore bomb. Primals are destroyed as Liadan said, because they poison Hydaelyn. The reason the Garleans haven't amassed a massive force to attack Eorzea and rid of the primal problem, is because the primal problems in other places are greater, seeing the scions are snuffing out what primals pop up in Eorzea.

 

This is why she's been "in-concept" for so long. Memenu's a very problematic character as you can see, but I've been working with it as best I can. The questions everyone has asked here (which again, I thank all of you for asking such questions) has helped me develop her further if I continue to go with this route.

 

At this point I should say "In-Progress" over in-concept, but eh, same thing to some extent. While I'm not sure if anyone else would stick with such a problem design for so long, I'm not willing to "start from scratch" so easily.

[Reppu]

I will note one more thing!

 

If she is being summoned by Lalafells under blight by Garleans... she would appear nearby them, no? And if so, would she not handle the problem there?

 

Basically, how do you excuse her wandering about/being in the Quicksand/etc etc? Primals are summoned where they are prayed for.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

What I'm reading on the FF wiki is that Primals are a threat due to their never-ending want of followers, crystals and Aether to increase their power. If this is correct, Memenu is a "non-threat" which is both unique and...Strange. I'm looking more into it, because I'm only getting this from the Moggle Mog page.

 

Primals siphon aether from the land by existing.  It doesn't have to be conscious.  It's just how they work.  They can't maintain a form without doing so, and that is why they are such a problem.  Tempering is a secondary issue, and their love of crystals goes right back with their need to constantly consume aether to continue existing.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear this has been mentioned at least two or three times so far in this thread, and thus far you have never addressed it. You keep ignoring that pesky, but important fact.

[Viola]

I will note one more thing!

 

If she is being summoned by Lalafells under blight by Garleans... she would appear nearby them, no? And if so, would she not handle the problem there?

 

Basically, how do you excuse her wandering about/being in the Quicksand/etc etc? Primals are summoned where they are prayed for.

1a. Since she was summoned by Lalafells under blight of the Garleans, would she not be able to handle the problem there?

There would most likely be too many for her to deal with, especially when not accustomed to a body she was "forced" to inhabit. She'd still be at an advantage strength-wise, but the physical limits of her mortal vessel would make it impossible to continue fighting for very long, especially if the new body isn't "her's" to begin with.

 

1b. Basically, how do you excuse her wandering about after being sommoned where the ritual happened?

Even if her "companions" escaped with her from the Garleans (since we know that this most likely happened somewhere in Thanalan, since Lalafell, specifically Dunesfolk, are practically everywhere in Thanalan), her vastly limited power (for a Primal), would require much more help than her merry group could give her. Roaming about the town would potentially allow her to find allies (or as everyone else has obviously stated; enemies) in stopping the Garleans.

 

 

Primals siphon aether from the land by existing.  It doesn't have to be conscious.  It's just how they work.  They can't maintain a form without doing so, and that is why they are such a problem.  Tempering is a secondary issue, and their love of crystals goes right back with their need to constantly consume aether to continue existing.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear this has been mentioned at least two or three times so far in this thread, and thus far you have never addressed it.  You keep ignoring that pesky, but important fact.

 

I haven't been ignoring it, I've just been thinking about it. Since the body used to be that of one of her followers, and that it is a physical (read; a naturally created, living) body, would, or could it completely negate the draining of Aether? I don't know, the reason; It hasn't been explored or even commented on in-lore. It'd explain the lack of need for crystals, Tempered followers, etc, but it would be a bit too...Convenient, so to speak.

[Unnamed Mercenary]

 

Primals siphon aether from the land by existing.  It doesn't have to be conscious.  It's just how they work.  They can't maintain a form without doing so, and that is why they are such a problem.  Tempering is a secondary issue, and their love of crystals goes right back with their need to constantly consume aether to continue existing.

 

Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear this has been mentioned at least two or three times so far in this thread, and thus far you have never addressed it.  You keep ignoring that pesky, but important fact.

 

I haven't been ignoring it, I've just been thinking about it. Since the body used to be that of one of her followers, and that it is a physical (read; a naturally created, living) body, would, or could it completely negate the draining of Aether? I don't know, the reason; It hasn't been explored or even commented on in-lore. It'd explain the lack of need for crystals, Tempered followers, etc, but it would be a bit too...Convenient, so to speak.

 

Shiva.

 

Iceheart still needed crystals, we can assume prayer, and some method of summoning the primal essence onto herself. As said earlier, a primal needs to willingly temper individuals, but the aether drain is a constant force.

 

person opinion: I think having a living body as a base might lessen the amount of aether needed/drained, but it shouldn't negate it. A primal is, by definition, still going to be draining aether by existing in the physical plane.

[Jana]

If your Primal character is summoned in Thanalan, then the disruption in the aether will be felt not only by the Scions still stationed there, but likely by the Immortal Flames as well. While we in the RPC do generally say "play what you want," this kind of character is basically being set up to be hunted down by a lot of the active characters playing military in Ul'dah. I'd caution against, unless that's the kind of thing you're going for.

[Viola]

Shiva.

 

Iceheart still needed crystals, we can assume prayer, and some method of summoning the primal essence onto herself. As said earlier, a primal needs to willingly temper individuals, but the aether drain is a constant force.

 

person opinion: I think having a living body as a base might lessen the amount of aether needed/drained, but it shouldn't negate it. A primal is, by definition, still going to be draining aether by existing in the physical plane.

 

The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.

 

As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.

 

-edit-

 

I apparently don't know how to use quotes. Fixed.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

 

The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.

 

As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.

 

You're still gonna be sucking aether out of the land like a junkie.  There isn't a single example of a primal existing without stripping aether out of the land.  It's a huge downside of their existence and is the reason there are immediate efforts to put them down.

[Viola]

If your Primal character is summoned in Thanalan, then the disruption in the aether will be felt not only by the Scions still stationed there, but likely by the Immortal Flames as well. While we in the RPC do generally say "play what you want," this kind of character is basically being set up to be hunted down by a lot of the active characters playing military in Ul'dah. I'd caution against, unless that's the kind of thing you're going for.

Going by the Story, the only ones (to my knowledge) that felt a Primal's presence was Limsa Lominsa with Titan's quakes. Ifrit was only found out due to the Hero of Light being sent to investigate disappearances out in Thanalan. (Though to be fair, it was at this point where both Ul'Dah and Gridania knew Ifrit and Garuda had already been summoned. Titan was purposely trying to bring down Lominsa, and Leviathan, who we could assume was also already summoned at this point was MIA.)

 

 

 

 

 

The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.

 

As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.

 

You're still gonna be sucking aether out of the land like a junkie.  There isn't a single example of a primal existing without stripping aether out of the land.  It's a huge downside of their existence and is the reason there are immediate efforts to put them down.

 

And this is the one Problem I cannot figure out how to get around. Crystals are easy enough to get in small quantities and could potentially act as a supplemental mask (I think), but the consistent purchase of crystals will most likely raise questions eventually. (However, as an adventurer, the Warrior of Light gets a metric shitton of 'em)

[Reppu]

Not all problems should be 'worked around'. At that point, why be a Primal then? You'd be a Primal in name only... which would be what some would say is a 'cry for attention'.

 

Until lore proves otherwise, the flaws have to be noted. And that big one is 'you are killing the planet by merely existing'.

 

Even inhabiting a soulless husk (which comes across more as a voidsent, but we have plenty of those in RP as it is and will only see more 'succubi' with the Au Ra) likely will not negate this, as noted. As people pointed out, Shiva required crystals to be made manifest. This suggests she does what every other Primal does.

 

Anyway, point is, you should not throw away the defining Primal threat; the slow course to insanity by feeding off aether. Your character having a doomsday clock can be a fun bit of RP, too. Eventually she has to be slaughtered, reborn again, and amass her power all over again.

 

... I will note one other thing; The Garlean Empire does not really do the whole 'enslaving' thing, aside from making VIPs prisoners. From everything we have seen, they tend to conquer and never raze or otherwise make individuals miserable, unless they try to do a coup (IE: Doma was fine under Garlean rule, then the succession wars had them coup, and they got razed to the ground for it).

 

I guess the question is, what did these lalafell -do- to piss the Garlean Empire off enough to not kill them, but also do what they characteristically do not do; ie imprison/enslave. TL;DR "Kneel to us or piss off" more than "SHACKLES AND SLAVES"

 

... And in the end, "Why a Primal?". I guess it would be one hell of an antagonist!

[Terra]

I don't know if anyone has brought up Odin, but the story implied that Odin appears regularly like he does without any worshippers because of being tied to Zantetsuken and the sword takes over anyone hapless enough to pick it up and possesses that person and then slowly drinks up Aether until he can fully manifest again

 

Might be a good angle to work with.

[Viola]

Sorry, I was tired as hell last night, that's why I didn't reply to your comment, Reppu.

 

The one who acted as sacrifice for Memenu had her soul more or less burned away as Memenu's Aether took control; the final thoughts a constant echo in her 'mind'.

 

I'm not entirely sure a Primal "goes mad" through devouring Aether. Maybe I missed something (more than likely) and I don't remember.

 

also, Terra; did you ever play on Siren at some point? your character name is familiar.

[Terra]

I have never played on Siren, but I actively post on the lodestone forums promoting Brynhildr RP and I do believe I joined the NeoNoah enjin Siren forum for the same reason I joined up here: I'm looking for a server I can expand some Alts onto and I'm trying to get a feel for different communities and groups to decide one to join before committing a new character there.

[mongi291]

To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).

So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.

[LiadansWhisper]

To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).

So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.

 

You can be sure that there were crystals involved, even if you didn't see any.  It's pretty much concrete that crystals (i.e. large amounts of available aether) are required to summon Primals if they are not already in existence.  The reason is that their bodies are literally made of aether, and without that aether to form their bodies, they don't manifest.

[Kage]

To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).

So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.

 

You can be sure that there were crystals involved, even if you didn't see any.  It's pretty much concrete that crystals (i.e. large amounts of available aether) are required to summon Primals if they are not already in existence.  The reason is that their bodies are literally made of aether, and without that aether to form their bodies, they don't manifest.

In the same cutscene, Garuda talks about the Ixali providing her with loads of crystals. It's not inconceivable that not only were the aether of the dead Amalj'aa and Kobolds were used but the crystals they brought her to summon Titan and Ifrit.

[LiadansWhisper]

 

 

In the same cutscene, Garuda talks about the Ixali providing her with loads of crystals. It's not inconceivable that not only were the aether of the dead Amalj'aa and Kobolds were used but the crystals they brought her to summon Titan and Ifrit.

 

That's honestly what I had assumed happened when I saw the cutscene.

[Viola]

Either way, it sounds like a huge oversight on the part of the devs to not at least have the boxes of crystals near the Primals when they're summoned.

 

Either way, the drain on the planet issue is something that I hoped would've been bypassed by giving Memenu a legitimate living body over a body requiring Aether and crystals to continue to manifest. However, it seems that the issue is to stay, regardless of steps taken.

[Aduu Avagnar]

I don't think its that much of an oversight. It was established beforehand that they require aether. It was established through out the MSQ that all Primals drain the land of aether, simply by existing. And its also not that much of an oversight if Garuda states that crystals were provided her. They don't need to visualise it if it was described....

 

 

 

Even Louixsoix, who became a primal due to being the focal point of a shit tonne of aether and fervent prayers, doesn't get resummoned, despite being a force for good after the defeat of bahamut. He also doesn't require crystals, due to the sheer ammount of aether involved. Which is the reason crystals are used the first place.